Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[spice4life]

I'm of the belief that unless it is an open situation and everyone, including the BS, is in the know, the WP only owes the AP a short message that it's over. And after that, strict NC. Something like this:

 

"The affair was a mistake and I am committing myself to my marriage because I love my wife/husband and family. I am sorry for any pain this has and will cause you. It's over and you will not be hearing from me again. I would appreciate it if you would respect 'my choice' to focus 100% on my marriage by not contacting me anymore."

 

I, personally, would welcome it, respect it and the person would never see or hear from me again. How can anyone argue or expect anymore than that from an affair?

Edited April 21, 2012 by spice4life

[spice4life]

Spice that was almost word for word what WH wrote when he did break up with oW. He got 50 email and 15 missed calls and 26 text messages (if I'm off it's only by one or two there)... In the next 3 days!

 

It actually set her off into a "you can't do this I haven't been given a chance to explain" tantrum.

 

I don't understand why but there it is.

 

My question, in my mind of course, would be, "explain what?!"

 

I guess, when it comes to affairs, you can never be 100% about who the person actually is until you end it. She fits into confusedinkansas' and wannabedone's AP's category. There was something wrong with her from the start and it didn't become clear to your husband until he tried to break it off. It must awful to be subjected to what is happening to you. I can definitely understand your anger towards both of them; toward your husband for putting you in this situation to begin with and her for being crazy and not letting go. Ugh! BTDT (not me the one clinging I mean) and it's not a fun place to be. That's for sure!

Edited April 21, 2012 by spice4life

[Radagast]

I keep comin back to this conclusion. I totally get that an AP would WANT a farewell, an explanation, a chance to persuade, closure even. Hell I would want that in any normal relationship I've been in and I know what it's like not to get it. It's a want, not something you're owed though.

 

But then imagine you're the MM. You've been in this affair because of y our own ego issues, you've told the OW all kinds of s***. You tht you meant most of it at the time or at least you were only partly telling her what she wanted to hear to keep her happy. Your wife finds out and you suddenly face losing your wife and marriage (not to mention home, reputation, possibly kids.)

 

The lightbulb goes off- you don't want to lose your wife, you love her! You don't want this mistress who is hurting your wife and marriage. You with she would go away. You feel bad for having exaggerated your feelings to her but your overwhelming thoughts are for your wife. You'd do anything to keep her.

 

In that circumstance why would anyone say he "owed" the xOW anything? His promises to her we're all in the shadow of the M. His priorities have mightily shifted. I can tell you if WH had said he owed her a meeting or phone call I woul have said fine, here's your wallet there's the door.

 

In other words the "owing" is only in OWs mind. It is just a garden variety want and one that will only be fulfilled at BSs expense so many MM will not do it and rightly so.

 

There's a great post on baggage reclaim about being owed. Being owed is a destructive way to think about a relationship that is ending.

 

If the married partner leaves the marriage for the affair partner, is their former spouse then owed anything but a brief note telling them it's over?

[skylarblue]

I will say that affair partners "owe" each other honesty, fairness, and all the other things that I do believe that people "owe" each other in all relationships. Things that I believe we owe it to ourselves to strive for, because I basically believe that we are supposed to be improving ourselves during our lives.

 

Just because their relationship is based upon and even dependent upon dishonesty and darkness to exist, adding more ugliness to an already messed up situation won't make the world a better place.

 

I don’t understand why being the AP disqualifies a person from being regarded or treated “fairly or decently” particularly by the WS. My thought is that people are “owed” at least what they’ve given, and people often feel that they are getting a raw deal when they are (for example) a “good” person that bad things happen to (and/or a “bad” person is “rewarded”). If I treated xMM with compassion and honesty, I’d expect and feel I deserve and/or am owed to same from him in return. Why wouldn’t I, especially if that’s what was presented from xMM throughout the A. You know, there’s nothing wrong with civility, even towards those “undeserving”.

 

How many BS (or people sans an A) would feel they “gave their partner a,b,c for x amount of time/years despite x,y,z” and therefore expect some kind of “decent” treatment. Is that any different because of a marriage license or do they feel that they’ve done/been something to someone and deserve/owed whatever appropriately in return?

[frozensprouts]

While I do think that when one person decides to end an affair, they should try and be as respectful to their affair partner as possible, an awful lot of affairs seem to be disrespectful to at least two of the parties involved ( the betrayed spouse and the other man/woman)...just my opinion

 

When my husband ended his affair, I have no idea what was said to his other woman, as I wasn't there ( but I do know he sent her an email telling her it was over)...

 

I sent her one as well, after she'd sent me one, and I tried to be respectful ( didn't mean I glossed over what had happened, but I wasn't rude to her...I tried to be polite) telling her that I wasn't to blame for her choice to be in the affair, and that i hoped she could go on i her life and find someone that could make her happy, as she deserved to find happiness with someone of her own

 

I know it may sound weird, but looking back, i think I would have wondered about my husband had he been cruel to her...I don't think I'd want to be with someone who had it in them to be so cruel

 

I sometimes think that it's easy to get so caught up in the affair ( what ever your role in it may be) that you forget that the others involved also have feelings and really don't deserve the poor treatment they may be receiving from the married person...

[MissBee]

I understand and can appreciate your stance, but he owed her a goodbye. With something like this, "it's over and I've recommitted to my marriage. There will be no more contact from me and I expect you to honor that." Heck...I'm sorry I drug you into my mess wouldn't be reaching and is the decent thing to do. Yeah.......I know, affairs aren't decent things to start with but the above has a finality about it, to ALL parties.

 

It's not hard......really quite easy. A spouse might not like it, but heck the BS didn't like the affair either and saying goodbye and it's over could prevent issues in the future.

 

We already know most ws's are seriously lacking in guts, I see it as another opportunity to start regaining some balls and making a statement about what direction they are now taking their life in and making it clear to ALL parties is a plus in that way.

 

 

This is so true.

 

Some time ago when I was having problems ending it with a guy I was seeing and wanted to just wait for things to fall off on their own or just disappear, a wise friend of mine said: "Yes you can do that. But there comes a different power with ending it yourself and making it clear that this is a decision you have chosen to make." It was like the heavens opened-up...she was so right!

 

I do think having As if often a passive-aggressive and all other kinds of avoidant behavior; and I do think, there comes a whole different power with ending something and telling someone in no uncertain terms you are done, versus slinking away or hoping you can run out the back door or hoping they "take a hint".

 

I think in the case of an A....if I were a WS and wanted to work on my marriage I'd tell my AP the truth in no uncertain terms. That to me would be empowering and would show my resolve. I wouldn't want them to think I'm just in hiding for a while and may return or some other kind of confusion. I think stating directly that it is done and I want no further contact makes it harder for them to pursue me and would also make it harder for me to come back as I would have sealed it shut with that.

 

It's like a funeral for the A. A friend of mine, God rest his soul, he went missing some months ago and as each month passed and we heard nothing, we feared the worst, but because we heard nothing, we also had hope that maybe he was okay. Maybe this, maybe that. Chances are we'd not recover him alive, but since there was NOTHING...there still was that hope. We later recovered his body and that's when we could all grieve and truly lay it to rest as we knew for a fact what happened and there was no coming back. It was sad but also freeing. I think it is similar with the NC/A scenario. You can figure it out and know what most likely happened if the person just disappears...but it will always leave a gap of wondering. Whereas if they tell you what is happening, there is no gap, there is no hope, you have no choice but to believe them and grieve. You may be delusional and hope they return for a while, but that's a different thing versus when you were never told.

[Radagast]

Radagast they aren't symmetric no matter what our xOW thinks. The AP I not the primary partner. Therefore how things are ended will have to differ. For a start I believe there would have to be asset splitting, child custody agreements and so on. Rarely possible to just walk out though it had been done. When it is then I think the BSs closure comes from realizing what a S *** the WS was.

 

It's moot who at that point is the primary partner. I would argue from my own experience that my ex-wife had ceased to be the primary partner when she signaled her unwillingness to keep to the agreement upon which reconciliation was based, and that my lover became my primary partner when we committed our hearts and our energies to each other. Vestigial arrangements such as asset splitting and child custody arrangements are of course due, as in the dissolution of any contract, with whomever - whether former spouse, an affair partner with whom one has shared property or shared offspring or a former business partner - but these are the business of lawyers and are not "owed" by virtue of the ending of a romantic relationship, but rather through the dissolving of a contract.

 

In some cases I would certainly advocate that the leaving spouse simply walked out leaving a brief note on the mantlepiece, and leave the rest to the lawyers. I can't begin to count the number of times my ex-wife wanted to meet to discuss the divorce only to find that it was yet another attempt to hold me hostage while she raged on about how I was responsible for all the ills in the world including her rotten childhood and the fact that her parents didn't love her or appreciate her true wonder. This, as a precursor to demanding that we "reconcile" once more since I owed her the chance to prove herself. Again.

[skylarblue]

...the WP only owes the AP a short message that it's over. And after that, strict NC. Something like this:

 

"The affair was a mistake and I am committing myself to my marriage because I love my wife/husband and family. I am sorry for any pain this has and will cause you. It's over and you will not be hearing from me again. I would appreciate it if you would respect 'my choice' to focus 100% on my marriage by not contacting me anymore."

 

I also would comply with xMM if NC was requested, but I wouldn’t want or need any explanation as to why. A simple “I’m sorry, but I am ending all contact with you and will appreciate/request the same” will be sufficed. I’ll get the idea that ending contact means the A is over, the recommitment to the M, blah blah blah.

[spice4life]

It's moot who at that point is the primary partner. I would argue from my own experience that my ex-wife had ceased to be the primary partner when she signaled her unwillingness to keep to the agreement upon which reconciliation was based, and that my lover became my primary partner when we committed our hearts and our energies to each other. Vestigial arrangements such as asset splitting and child custody arrangements are of course due, as in the dissolution of any contract, with whomever - whether former spouse, an affair partner with whom one has shared property or shared offspring or a former business partner - but these are the business of lawyers and are not "owed" by virtue of the ending of a romantic relationship, but rather through the dissolving of a contract.

 

In some cases I would certainly advocate that the leaving spouse simply walked out leaving a brief note on the mantlepiece, and leave the rest to the lawyers. I can't begin to count the number of times my ex-wife wanted to meet to discuss the divorce only to find that it was yet another attempt to hold me hostage while she raged on about how I was responsible for all the ills in the world including her rotten childhood and the fact that her parents didn't love her or appreciate her true wonder. This, as a precursor to demanding that we "reconcile" once more since I owed her the chance to prove herself. Again.

 

Your situation is proof that circumstances can be different based upon the state of the marriage. If you were unhappy, you have every right to leave and no one has a right to foce you to stay. You made a mistake and mrried the wrong person and wanted out, simple as that. I ended my marriage for the very same reason and there is no way in h*ll he could force me to stay.

 

That said, I think most of the affairs do not play out that way and they usually happen because the people involved have coping issues. In that case, if they realize they handled things badly and do want to stay married, then they need to just end the affair in a way that permantly closes the door. If anything is owed, I feel that is the only thing that is. Heck, it's owed in a normal relationship. Making it clear that it's over and the door is being shut permanantly, allows the one being left the opportunity to mourn and heal from the relationship. You can't give into their pleadings by communicating with them if you don't intend to stay because it gives them a glimmer of hope.

 

So I guess the only thing anyone is owed is that it is indeed over and there is no hope what so ever. It's only fair because they will then be able to finally focus on their own healing and move on.

Edited April 21, 2012 by spice4life

[stillwater]

Skylar I'll have to agree to disagree because you list me at your first sentence. The Ow did a heinous thing, undeserving of forgiveness from anyone, when she poked her nose in another woman's marriage. That's not defending the WH at all- that's just a fact. He may have done something unforgivable too, but that's not the issue here. As a result of disagreeing with your first sentence - no she deserves nothing. And there is something wrong with civility if it makes her think she is entitled to more, and if it hurts the BS more.

 

In my view the AP deserved nothing but pain and rejection tw instant they inflicted pain on another and that doesn't change. If they get mee than that because of a magnanimous BS then they should fall on their knees in gratitude for that. They don't, of course. They feel entitled. If you are involved with someone secretly and in order to hurt another... Then no I don't think you deserve anything beyond physical safety to be perfectly honest.

 

This post seems to put an inordinate amount of blame on the OP. IMO the WS and OP share 50/50 blame. Your post seems to come at this from the angle that what the OP did was far worse than what the WS and thus deserves nothing but contempt, even from the WS. This doesn't make any sense to me; I see them as equals and so I don't see why some amount of decency isn't owed to each other by both partners, as it is in all interpersonal relationships. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

 

(I also don't think anyone is saying the BS owes anyone anything.)

Edited April 21, 2012 by stillwater

[wannabdone]

But frozen you know he's capable of being that cruell because he was that cruel to you. To me I would never stay with someone who was capable of being that cruel to me but god forbid he's ever be cruel to someone who hurt me deeply or helped him to hurt me... If he had been like that I don't think any of us would still be alive... Well not all in one piece.

 

I see it as a loyalty empathy thing. If he gets how much his and her cruelty hurt me then she gets no quarter, no consideration, doesn't deserve to be spat on if she's on fire figuratively. He didn't really get that until she acted crazy. That's what showed him just how deeply she had hurt me because he could no linger say it was because he led her to. This was her, purely her. And then he finally got it and showed total loyalty.

 

She gave up her right to expect politeness and consideration and well wishes for her happiness when she got involved knowingly with a married man with the intention of breaking up his family. She had no rights during the A but she got indulgences. Now those are gone she still has no rights. This is the bit I don't get that OW don't get. You weren't the wife, you have no rights if he decides to stay.

 

If he decides to leave for you well then you have a different ball game. But even then I think it's a bit rich to expect fidelity given the history

 

But, then we could say if the BS stays with the WS then it is a bit rich to expect fidelity given his history as well, no?

[whichwayisup]

Originally Posted by skylarblue

I don’t understand why being the AP disqualifies a person from being regarded or treated “fairly or decently” particularly by the WS.

 

Look at how the WS has treated his/her OWN spouse, why would an affair partner expect to be treated better? With love, honour and respect? AN AFFAIR is far from norm, let alone honest and open. An AP knows the person is married from the beginning and chooses to 'believe' the lines that MM or MW give, even after xx amount of months/years when the WS says they're leaving and don't.. It's one thing to not know the person is married, then find out later.. An apology IS warrented.

 

Getting some closure by the WS is great if it happens, but it shouldn't be expected. Besides, closure truly comes within.

[MissBee]

I think most even-keeled people when they get past their own hurt, can extend empathy to others. This applies to whatever side of the spectrum you're on.

 

I don't think that because a man or woman has an affair as the OW/OM or WS they are perpetually doomed to a life of contempt, hatred, undeserving of forgiveness, they should just basically be treated badly for all eternity because of their indiscretions. People who believe this, I hope they never make any unscrupulous decisions, or if so, I hope they expect their same standard to be applied to them as well.

 

I resonated with something frozensprouts said about if her husband were cruel to the OW she'd wonder about him (paraphrasing here). I feel the same. If I had an unfaithful spouse who went out of his way to be cruel to the OW in the end, instead of it making me feel vindicated that he definitely is sorry and loves me because of his cruelty to her (???? ), I'd have further disdain for him and I'd think he was even more effed up. BS's have said on here that regardless of the A, they do believe their spouse was a good person and for me, I think him ending the A decently would go along with that theme and help me personally to feel better about the situation. I do not see how him hating the OW is supposed to prove anything to me. I sort of understand that mentality but definitely feel it is of a lower nature. The A was wrong, no doubt, however even within wrong situations people can still apply some form of decency and I think a WS who is truly sorry on ALL counts: for both betraying his wife and perhaps leading on another woman, would try to be decent to them BOTH in the end.

Edited April 21, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

I'm not trying for indifference. I am trying for peace which will only start when she has some consequences and her H knows. I am trying to find a way to contact him. Her world will fall apart and she will hate me for it which is fine. My work will be done. If H and I stay together or not there will be some peace. And if we don't stay together then I can tell the world and damage them both a lot more.

 

And if she never has the consequences you think she should, your life won't go on? That surely gives her a lot of power. If her husband doesn't care and forgives her, then what? If the big fiasco you think will ensue doesn't happen then what? Will you resort to other methods to ensure she pays?

 

I actually almost hope you get to damage her world and for you to see if it actually makes any difference in making your life more peaceful.

[frozensprouts]

But frozen you know he's capable of being that cruell because he was that cruel to you. To me I would never stay with someone who was capable of being that cruel to me but god forbid he's ever be cruel to someone who hurt me deeply or helped him to hurt me... If he had been like that I don't think any of us would still be alive... Well not all in one piece.

 

I see it as a loyalty empathy thing. If he gets how much his and her cruelty hurt me then she gets no quarter, no consideration, doesn't deserve to be spat on if she's on fire figuratively. He didn't really get that until she acted crazy. That's what showed him just how deeply she had hurt me because he could no linger say it was because he led her to. This was her, purely her. And then he finally got it and showed total loyalty.

 

She gave up her right to expect politeness and consideration and well wishes for her happiness when she got involved knowingly with a married man with the intention of breaking up his family. She had no rights during the A but she got indulgences. Now those are gone she still has no rights. This is the bit I don't get that OW don't get. You weren't the wife, you have no rights if he decides to stay.

 

If he decides to leave for you well then you have a different ball game. But even then I think it's a bit rich to expect fidelity given the history

 

I understand what you are saying, and, given what you have said about your husband's ex other woman, I think i can understand why you feel the way you do.

 

In my situation, I know myself, and I know what I can and can't live with...yes, my husband was terribly cruel to me, but we were staying together, and we'd have our time to address that. His goodbye to her was his last chance to say anything to her that he felt he needed to say, and , even though she was involved in a situation that hurt me terribly, i know that I couldn't feel good about myself if I had asked him to be cruel to her. Mind you, there was a part of me that wanted to walk up to her and kick her butt up and down the street 9 I had offers to help me with this:laugh:), but, in the end, what good would that really do me or my marriage...

 

I;m criticizing how you feel, or saying you are wrong for feeling that way...each of us is different and handles things in a different way...maybe I was too much of a "push over" about the whole thing, maybe I should have told her off...but that's just not who i am...and , to be honest, I didn't want to give her any more "headspace" that she'd already gotten from me...

but, like I said, each situation is different...you are handling things in a way that works for you...and it may be the best way to deal with your husband's ex other woman...

[seren]

On D Day, my H rang OW and said 'it's over' that was it, no explanation, nothing. It was I who said he owed her more than that, he, however, said that once he had said the I have been having an A, the weight lifted of his shoulders and he saw that he could be losing me and that all that he wanted to do was to put his energies into trying to gain my trust, love, respect and be who he was before. Not just before the A, but before he began acting like a total a***.

 

The OW kept ringing the house as he had taken a hammer to his cell phone so she couldn't keep ringing him or texting, which of course she was. I spoke with her and she just could not believe that H wouldn't want to speak with her, it became, in her eyes, all my doing, I was somehow stopping him speaking to her. Couldn't be further from the truth, but of course she would think this, I on the other hand knew that H was a conflict avoider and that the circumstances that led up to the A meant that he wanted to run and hide.

 

I think OW was surprised that the man who would stand at the bar being Mr Congeniality without a care, was so not who H really was. The man she knew, albeit for brief meetings, was not who H really is when he is known on a day to day, long term, warts and all timescale. I questioned how well she knew him if she thought he would react any differently. Not in a nanana sort of way, more in a , you are telling me you know him and then don't know the most fundemental thing about H, he doesn't deal with stuff, I always had dealt with stuff for us, so that he wouldn't feel too stressed as his job was uber stressful. I spoke to OW when she rang, I was the brunt of her frustration at not being given what she felt she was owed and initially I felt for her and her pain. BUT when that was followed up by her trying to get him to meet up for afternoon sex, that was trumped by me thinking after all the conversations with her, wasn't I owed respect too?

 

I suppose what it boils down to is that people will only get what they feel they are owed if the person they are asking it from thinks they deserve it. At the end of an A, many WS blame the AP for enabling them to have an A. The A once out in the open can lose it's appeal. of course that is unfair if you are the AP who has been promised the moon on a stick. Many BS will say, what if it were I who was sleeping around with someone else and will see the WS see their BS as a person rather than a spouse. Any promises made to the AP will vanish rather quickly as they try to make it all right for the BS. Or, if they love the AP, will at least owe it to the BS to properly end the marriage before embarking on a full blown A. I really do not see how anyone can view this otherwise.

 

Do A partners owe each other anything? I would like to ask, do people who are in relationships owe each other anything? or even do we owe others anything? For me, the answer would be yes, we owe people the right to make an informed choice about their lives, by being honest and because I am that way inclined, we owe them kindness and not enabling their hurt. So the WS should end the A finally, the AP should back off and honour NC and the BS should be given the time to make sense of it all and be given truth so they can be given what we are all owed. Informed choice.

[Furious]

Yes, I believe affair partners owe each other honesty and consideration when it ends, ideally that honesty and consideration should also include the BS. Three adults, face to face.

 

That is the perfect scenario in my opinion.

[whichwayisup]

Yes, I believe affair partners owe each other honesty and consideration when it ends, ideally that honesty and consideration should also include the BS. Three adults, face to face.

 

That is the perfect scenario in my opinion.

 

Yet the BS wasn't ASKED permission first before the A, she wasn't considered, there was no honesty..Just lying, deceiving, gaslighting, and sneaking around. How come after an affair ends all of sudden the 'honesty and consideration' is so important? Both AP and WS are making a fool of the BS while having the affair, yet the BS is supposed to be OK with closure and making sure that affair partners end things honestly and with respect? Just wondering.

[Furious]

BW, I wish I could wrap my arms around you.

You are selling yourself short.

I think you are beautiful, courageous, and intelligent.

You are fighting so hard, making it through each day, caring for a baby and and your other two children.

 

You will get through this, I know it.

[Furious]

Thank you furious. I told H once just after DDay when he said my letting him stay was doormatish... "no actually the self esteem I have left is built on never having been a liar or a cheat, not spreading my legs to get ahead at work, not plotting to take another woman's husband and children and house and security and not walking away from my marriage vows just do somebody like her can have an easy run. If you want to end t there's the door. You have to take responsibility for it. I will make sure everyone knows who you had and why you left. For an A you started 2 weeks before your child was born. Thanks but I'm quite happy with who I am, are you? Is she?"

 

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

[findingnemo]

Thank you furious. I told H once just after DDay when he said my letting him stay was doormatish... "no actually the self esteem I have left is built on never having been a liar or a cheat, not spreading my legs to get ahead at work, not plotting to take another woman's husband and children and house and security and not walking away from my marriage vows just do somebody like her can have an easy run. If you want to end t there's the door. You have to take responsibility for it. I will make sure everyone knows who you had and why you left. For an A you started 2 weeks before your child was born. Thanks but I'm quite happy with who I am, are you? Is she?"

 

I love this!!!! Honestly, BW, if you thought all this after Dday and said it to him, why are we still here? Here in this place? At the point at which you said all that, I would have blown the whole thing open. Eff the consequences!! Sometimes when we wait and plot and wait, we get stuck in waiting and plotting. You have heard of people who do the craziest things (I'm not talking about illegal) and yet they live another day. They rebuild their lives, their Ms.

 

I wish you could go a bit crazy too for a day. Screw the consequences. Go find her BH and tell him. He has the same or more to lose by outing them at their workplace. You won't really know until you talk to him. You have to be careful though. You can't approach him with open hatred for his W and tell him that you wish she burns in hell. In a state of shock, he may very well think you're the crazy one and go into defense mode. Just go tell him what you know, your fears about your H's job and the impact exposure will have on your family. Then sit down and wait...take everyday and everything as it comes.

 

One thing that worries me about letting more time go by is that it may not be as effective to expose. I'm thinking of the exact words you'll tell the BH. "Your W had an A with my H a year ago and will not let go. I have known about it all this time but now that I realize she is tenacious I am asking for your intervention"? Maybe a few men can tell us how they'd react to something like that. The waiting bothers me a bit. It only serves to distract you from living your life, enjoying your kids, growing into a stronger person. A whole year? That's way too much time to dwell on how to exact revenge. It's not good for you. It could be good for the OW though. The more time that passes, the less plausible the story, perhaps?

 

Sorry for the t/j...

[Summer Breeze]

Whether anyone likes it or not there is a R between the WS and the AP. There should be an explanation in that R just like in any other. That doesnt mean it needs to be this long involved thing. Simply something like we're going to give it a go and I'm staying home. Any time any R ends with no explanation it'll leave someone searching for one.

[Summer Breeze]

Look at how the WS has treated his/her OWN spouse, why would an affair partner expect to be treated better? With love, honour and respect? AN AFFAIR is far from norm, let alone honest and open. An AP knows the person is married from the beginning and chooses to 'believe' the lines that MM or MW give, even after xx amount of months/years when the WS says they're leaving and don't.. It's one thing to not know the person is married, then find out later.. An apology IS warrented.

 

Getting some closure by the WS is great if it happens, but it shouldn't be expected. Besides, closure truly comes within.

 

If true closure happened completely from within then why would everyone be searching for something to help it along? I agree you finally have to accept things and find a way through them but I don't buy that it's easier without external influences.

 

Why would anyone not expect to be given the consideration of at least a simple explanation? I have a friend who treats other friends horribly but we get along fine. My R with her isn't defined by her R with others. I expect things from her that other friends don't. I didn't define my R with my xH by his R with the OW and I didn't define my R with MM by his R with his W.

 

The thing is that not everyone will extend that courtesy even if they're single and in an R. I had someone break up with me without a word once and it was the hardest time I had recovering from an R. It was almost 30 years ago and I wasn't even in love with him.

[SandieBeach]

I don't think a WS is capable of giving honesty to his/her AP because s/he isn't honest with himself/herself. Of course there are always exceptions, but I think that most of the time, this is the case (so yes, I will generalize). Most affair partners choose to show only the side of themselves that is attractive because they believe this is who they truly are.

[Summer Breeze]

Skylar I'll have to agree to disagree because you list me at your first sentence. The Ow did a heinous thing, undeserving of forgiveness from anyone, when she poked her nose in another woman's marriage. That's not defending the WH at all- that's just a fact. He may have done something unforgivable too, but that's not the issue here. As a result of disagreeing with your first sentence - no she deserves nothing. And there is something wrong with civility if it makes her think she is entitled to more, and if it hurts the BS more.

 

In my view the AP deserved nothing but pain and rejection tw instant they inflicted pain on another and that doesn't change. If they get mee than that because of a magnanimous BS then they should fall on their knees in gratitude for that. They don't, of course. They feel entitled. If you are involved with someone secretly and in order to hurt another... Then no I don't think you deserve anything beyond physical safety to be perfectly honest.

 

You are so adamant about your Hs OW to never be forgiven how can you even begin to justify forgiving your H? I don't get how you can be so focused on her ''destructon' and even consider reconciling with the man who brought all of this down on you. You are leaning so far one way it's frightening.