Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[Summer Breeze]

SB,

 

I don't know anything about the specifics of your first marriage.

 

But I do know that many of my friends regret being so hasty in filing for divorce in their first marriages. Most of it was immaturity/youth and not having the skills then to try and make their marriages better.

 

They, like you, wonder what it would have been like to be with the new improved H.(since sadly most were high school/college sweethearts)

 

I know as many that regret staying as that regret leaving. That's why I don't regret at all. I think you should reflect and sometimes wonder but never regret. I made the best decisions I could at the time and I still know it was the right one. I never could have trusted him. His betrayal was that huge. I could not have gotten over it. I'm happy that I've had the life I've had and I'm happy he found a way to move forward.

 

If anything I sit in amazement at women who do reconcile because it's so foreign to me. The amazement can be great amazement for the ones who are coming through the other side and it can be general amazement that some of them don't really see through their WS.

 

No matter how old you are there's always something to learn.

[Summer Breeze]

I don't know, but I'm thinking that most of the BS on this forum probably married MUCH younger than the age at which I met my current man. They probably didn't have knowledge of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty under the belts of their H's. Also, their spouses still had a lot of growing to do. Yes, I'm old. Well, not THAT old, but old enough that I know many MANY people who have known my man for many MANY years (most of them, all his life) and he has a track record that cannot be matched by any other man I know as regards honesty and integrity and a general caring for others, even when he gets no benefit from said caring. AND - people who reconcile are in MUCH closer proximity to their H/W's than an outsider. Which is what you are in the circumstance described.

 

And you're an outsider when it comes to my xH and his M. You have an opinion based on his history and I brought up that other men who have successfully reconciled have the same history. It seems you're saying it's ok because they're with the W and mine is with the OW. Sorry you can't differentiate that way. At least not in my opinion.

 

I'm not trying to trash your man. I'm just saying every day we see BS come in here and say they can't believe it. They wouldn't believe it. They didn't know it could happen to them. They were so close. They know him so well. I said those same things all those years ago---I'm old too! No one knows till it happens. I'm very happy you have your man and I'm not knocking him. I'm just saying that everyone is safe and secure until they're not. I know it doesn't happen to everyone but everyone that it happens to says it.

[findingnemo]

SB,

 

I don't know anything about the specifics of your first marriage.

 

But I do know that many of my friends regret being so hasty in filing for divorce in their first marriages. Most of it was immaturity/youth and not having the skills then to try and make their marriages better.

 

They, like you, wonder what it would have been like to be with the new improved H.(since sadly most were high school/college sweethearts)

 

I've been wanting to start a thread about this very issue. But I don't know how to describe what I'm thinking or where to post it. It's my experience that a lot of divorcees regret it. The circumstances of the D vary and when they tell you why they got them, it makes sense. It's just that their ex partners seem to be doing much better, being better fathers/mothers, husbands/wives, etc. I wonder if it's a GIGS issue since one is on the outside and doesn't really know for sure what's going on. Or is it that people can change? Is it possible that many cheaters (barring serial cheaters) made some wrong choices and are perfectly capable of not repeating this behaviour again in the future? Which is it and does it serve society in general and individuals to believe that "once a cheater always a cheater"? Doesn't "painting someone black" automatically make us make regretful decisions?

 

If indeed, people make mistakes and can change, then the question posed by Sky takes on a new meaning. Yes, the MP lied and cheated, and yes the OP knew (in most cases) the MP was M. But if it's true that people can change for the better, isn't the AP then owed an apology, an acknowledgement of the pain caused to them, something that explains what happened rather than a disappearance? If a fWS can change and become honest and forthcoming, why shouldn't they be expected to owe the AP an apology?

 

Am I making any sense here?

[jwi71]

I've been wanting to start a thread about this very issue. But I don't know how to describe what I'm thinking or where to post it. It's my experience that a lot of divorcees regret it. The circumstances of the D vary and when they tell you why they got them, it makes sense. It's just that their ex partners seem to be doing much better, being better fathers/mothers, husbands/wives, etc. I wonder if it's a GIGS issue since one is on the outside and doesn't really know for sure what's going on. Or is it that people can change? Is it possible that many cheaters (barring serial cheaters) made some wrong choices and are perfectly capable of not repeating this behaviour again in the future? Which is it and does it serve society in general and individuals to believe that "once a cheater always a cheater"? Doesn't "painting someone black" automatically make us make regretful decisions?

 

Interesting.

I've heard the same as you - most people who D (and here is a critical difference from what you said above) while in an A regret it. This, I think is true. It's a rash decision made in the fog. Once cleared, presumably after the D is final, the WS realizes a mistake was made (the D) and regrets it. Further, this presumes -and is likely the case where the WS left for the OW - the issues that once existed in the M now resurface with the R in the OW. I would conclude that's be ause the WS didn't change - merely changed partners.

 

The recidivism rate for cheaters? No clue. Maybe it's higher. Maybe not. However, if a cheater does NOT do the heavy lifting in terms of IC I do feel they are more likely to repeat past behaviors.

 

The more expansive, people who D regret it, I'm less inclined to believe.

 

If indeed, people make mistakes and can change, then the question posed by Sky takes on a new meaning. Yes, the MP lied and cheated, and yes the OP knew (in most cases) the MP was M. But if it's true that people can change for the better, isn't the AP then owed an apology, an acknowledgement of the pain caused to them, something that explains what happened rather than a disappearance? If a fWS can change and become honest and forthcoming, why shouldn't they be expected to owe the AP an apology?

 

Sure. If the MM knew, or reasonably knew, that the OW was being lied to and "used" then yes, the OW is owed an apology. It is perhaps more likely, to me, that the is himself confused and speaks out of confusion and not malice. It feels like love or soulmates but, in reality, is not. It's the fog.

 

Does the MZm owe an apology then?

 

And, given that we are speaking of making amends for wrongs, does the OW owe the BS an apology? Why or why not?

Edited April 24, 2012 by jwi71

[donnamaybe]

And you're an outsider when it comes to my xH and his M. You have an opinion based on his history and I brought up that other men who have successfully reconciled have the same history. It seems you're saying it's ok because they're with the W and mine is with the OW. Sorry you can't differentiate that way. At least not in my opinion.

All I said was, as an outsider, you cannot know. I never professed to know, so whether I'm an outsider or not has no bearing.

[Owl]

What does having a strong and solid relationship have to do with it? It's the person that cheats, not the relationship. There are many, many people in crappy relationships who don't cheat.

 

Why is it so hard to believe that there are some people with strong boundaries who simply do not consider cheating an option?

 

I can't recall any BS who has reconciled so convinced of this "anyone can cheat" claim. I can't even think of any BS who have said it, other than those BS who went on to become cheaters themselves. Wonder why that is?

 

Actually, I've said it, but in a slightly different context.

 

I believe that it's POSSIBLE for anyone to cheat. There are no garauntees that the person you're with won't cheat.

 

I don't believe that I'll ever cheat. But...theoretically, it's possible.

 

It's also possible that I'll be killed by a blue icicle falling from the sky omw home from work tonight. I don't plan on buying extra insurance today though.

 

[Radagast]

Interesting.

I've heard the same as you - most people who D (and here is a critical difference from what you said above) while in an A regret it. This, I think is true. It's a rash decision made in the fog. Once cleared, presumably after the D is final, the WS realizes a mistake was made (the D) and regrets it. Further, this presumes -and is likely the case where the WS left for the OW - the issues that once existed in the M now resurface with the R in the OW. I would conclude that's be ause the WS didn't change - merely changed partners.

 

The recidivism rate for cheaters? No clue. Maybe it's higher. Maybe not. However, if a cheater does NOT do the heavy lifting in terms of IC I do feel they are more likely to repeat past behaviors.

 

The more expansive, people who D regret it, I'm less inclined to believe.

 

I would guess that it depends on the circumstances of the divorce. I suspect that the person who is left is more likely to have regrets than the person who does the leaving. The person who leaves is more likely to be resolved in themselves that the relationship is over, more likely to have checked out emotionally and more likely to have moved on, and so less likely to have regrets than the person who was left who may still have "unfinished business".

 

Where an affair is involved, in some cases it's likely to be the unfaithful spouse who has moved on to a new relationship and has checked out of the marriage, who pulls the plug, as in my own case. In other cases it's likely to be the betrayed partner, who discovers the affair and ends the marriage summarily before the unfaithful spouse has reached resolution within themself.

 

I agree that work is needed after an affair to prevent baggage from the broken marriage being dragged into the new marriage, but I don't see that as being different to the reflection required after any relationship of any serious length ends. People fall into habits of relating which may be negative and there is always a risk that those can resurface with a new partner.

[beenburned]

Rad,

 

Let me tell you what happened to my H's co-workers whose 1st wives left them because they wouldn't stop their cheating ways.

 

All of them are now 50+ years old.

 

One of them is in his 4th marriage, another one is now a widower due to his wife contracting HIVpositive, another one is in his 3rd marriage, etc. etc.

 

My H occasionally runs into them a few times over all these years. They ALL still love their 1st wives/children and truely regret being so stupid acting when they were younger!

 

Also most all of them are having financial difficulties due to all the expenses with multiple divorces and multiple children.

[Radagast]

I don't know, but I'm thinking that most of the BS on this forum probably married MUCH younger than the age at which I met my current man. They probably didn't have knowledge of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty under the belts of their H's.

 

A track record of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty is no guarantee, as my ex-wife would no doubt be happy to tell you.

 

To return to the original question asked, in the context of some posts asserting that the affair partners owe each other nothing after the affair, and indeed some posts claiming that the unfaithful spouse owes it to the betrayed spouse to betray the former affair partner as thoroughly as is humanly possible, I would caution that the courts may see it differently. Several rulings have upheld the expectation or undertaking of privacy between partners once the relationship is no more, for example where relationship partners have exchanged nude or otherwise erotic photographs. Some of the posts on this thread would imply, although they have not directly stated such, that the betrayed spouse could legitimately demand access to such keepsakes and that the unfaithful spouse would be expected to hand these over. This is in direct opposition to the rulings of several court cases which have stated that the undertakings or mutual expectations of privacy and confidentiality between relationship partners persist after the demise of the relationship, and large amounts in damages have been awarded by the courts where this has been shown not to have been followed. So it would seem the view of the courts at least that there are at least some things owed to former partners.

[Radagast]

Rad,

 

Let me tell you what happened to my H's co-workers whose 1st wives left them because they wouldn't stop their cheating ways.

 

This is consistent with what I suspected, that those who get left are those with the regrets, while those who leave are less likely to regret.

[donnamaybe]

A track record of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty is no guarantee, as my ex-wife would no doubt be happy to tell you.

.

Oh, it goes way beyond that. But you have no knowledge of it, so....

[Owl]

A track record of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty is no guarantee, as my ex-wife would no doubt be happy to tell you.

 

To return to the original question asked, in the context of some posts asserting that the affair partners owe each other nothing after the affair, and indeed some posts claiming that the unfaithful spouse owes it to the betrayed spouse to betray the former affair partner as thoroughly as is humanly possible, I would caution that the courts may see it differently. Several rulings have upheld the expectation or undertaking of privacy between partners once the relationship is no more, for example where relationship partners have exchanged nude or otherwise erotic photographs. Some of the posts on this thread would imply, although they have not directly stated such, that the betrayed spouse could legitimately demand access to such keepsakes and that the unfaithful spouse would be expected to hand these over. This is in direct opposition to the rulings of several court cases which have stated that the undertakings or mutual expectations of privacy and confidentiality between relationship partners persist after the demise of the relationship, and large amounts in damages have been awarded by the courts where this has been shown not to have been followed. So it would seem the view of the courts at least that there are at least some things owed to former partners.

 

So you're saying that the WS owes the AP any nude photos that were taken???

 

As far as a BS 'insisting' that the WS hand over said photos or such...I'd suggest that it's entirely reasonable for a BS to INSIST that said photos be demonstrably destroyed/deleted/removed from the WS's possession as part of that BS's requirements to reconcile or remain married.

 

Quite frankly...a BS can insist on whatever they require in order to consider reconciliation with the WS.

 

It's up to the WS to decide to follow those requirements...or choose not to pursue reconciliation further.

 

Don't confuse the OPTION to reconcile with some 'possilble' legal precedent as to the continued possession of items given to the WS by the AP.

 

The WS always retains the option to refuse (either on the grounds of legality or for any other reason) to provide or destroy such items as BS requires...or they may choose the other option and not remain married with the BS.

 

Call it whatever you like, attempt to put whatever spin on it you care to...at the end of the day, it remains the WS's obligation to his BS to do whatever is required to rebuild trust...or to end the marriage.

 

Not everyone has to reconcile...but if they choose to do so...any theoretical 'obligation' to the affair partner MUST be placed in a much lower category (or considered moot) than the obligation they have to the person whose trust and love the WS is attempting to regain.

 

It demonstrates where their loyalty is now, where it wasn't before.

 

Obligations of any kind to the affair partner become null and void, as the affair partner should no longer be considered part of their lives from that point forward. If they choose to honor those obligations...they do so at the risk of losing any hope at reconciling their marriage to the BS. Simple enough.

[findingnemo]

Interesting.

I've heard the same as you - most people who D (and here is a critical difference from what you said above) while in an A regret it. This, I think is true. It's a rash decision made in the fog. Once cleared, presumably after the D is final, the WS realizes a mistake was made (the D) and regrets it. Further, this presumes -and is likely the case where the WS left for the OW - the issues that once existed in the M now resurface with the R in the OW. I would conclude that's be ause the WS didn't change - merely changed partners.

 

I have found the people who regret getting Ds include those who left because their spouses cheated. As I said the reasons vary. Perhaps the problem comes from the fact that for some getting a D is an automatic response to certain situations. I totally understand the idea that a MP leaving for the AP is likely to regret it. There are of course many who married the wrong person or for the wrong reason. Those leave and never look back.

 

The recidivism rate for cheaters? No clue. Maybe it's higher. Maybe not. However, if a cheater does NOT do the heavy lifting in terms of IC I do feel they are more likely to repeat past behaviors.

 

Well, here's something to think about. In my world, IC is abnormal. In other words, it is mighty hard to find a therapist unless he/she is Christian based. We tend to use family meetings to resolve infidelity issues. Yet given this fact, there are quite a number of cheaters who have reformed and become faithful spouses. I suspect it's higher because human beings are more inclined to report bad news rather than good news. How many posters are here complaining about their spouses or SOs as opposed to those praising them? It seems to me that when people are happy, they stick to themselves but when sad, talk about it with others outside their family circles. We can't rely on therapists' data because we know they deal with troubled couples. So I suspect that the rate of recidivism (I like your use of the English language's rich vocabulary, by the way) is much higher than we know.

 

 

The more expansive, people who D regret it, I'm less inclined to believe.

 

Now this statement, I don't quite follow. Maybe I'm thick or something. What do you mean exactly?

 

Sure. If the MM knew, or reasonably knew, that the OW was being lied to and "used" then yes, the OW is owed an apology. It is perhaps more likely, to me, that the is himself confused and speaks out of confusion and not malice. It feels like love or soulmates but, in reality, is not. It's the fog.

 

Let's call a spade a spade, here. The MM KNOWS he's lying to the OW for sure. How do I know? He tells her he loves her and then tells the W he loves her too. He says he's unhappy at home but isn't really otherwise he'd leave. Often the picture painted of the BS is...well, bs. The MM knows that when the OW says the words "I love you" they are usually meant in the real sense. For him to believe that she will sleep with him when he wants to, be there for him when he finds the time, comfort him when he has something on his mind, etc and yet somehow be speaking from a place of confusion is unthinkable mainly because it seems unreal. A MM who functions at work, does his duties as a father and husband, can't be expected to lose it just when it comes to dealing with the OW. Oh no. That would be too easy and simply unrealistic. What I think happens is that at that moment he feels all this love but the minute he walks out the door, that so called fog lifts. This simply means that he will be aware that he is telling huge lies the next time he says all those sweet things to OW.

 

Does the MM owe an apology then?

 

And, given that we are speaking of making amends for wrongs, does the OW owe the BS an apology? Why or why not?

 

For me, it is clear the OW owes the BS an apology. I don't care in what state the M is. Whether sexless, or hell on earth, the OW is wrong to insert herself (regardless of it being by invitation) into the M of someone else. What I'm saying is that when the WS decides to change and become honest and open henceforth then that honesty and openness should also extend to the AP. After all, the AP operated under false assumptions based on what the WS said. It's only fair and IMO the best way to ensure that all parties know where they stand. A disappearance act while good for reconciling the M, leaves the AP in a world of hurt (regardless of their culpability) and at the end of the day it is all brought on by the WS.

[findingnemo]

I get that. But you don't say it repeatedly, as if to pee in someone's cornflakes. That typically comes from the OW or the BS-turned-OP camp. Was just wondering why that might be.

 

AND... I admit I haven't the time or inclination to read complete threads anymore, so I have no idea what this has to do with what AP's owe each other...

 

It doesn't but it was a natural progression. Donna is happy with her SO (very happy I might add) and she believes that based on his history, his personality, he is unlikely to ever cheat. She believes he would take the honest route. Summer Breeze was just saying that she understands why Donna thinks her SO won't cheat but that it's no guarantee. At least I think that's what happened as the thread progressed. So it was specific to Donna although Summer Breeze started the whole idea (in my mind at least) about the fact that some cheaters change giving the example of her xH.

[Stephanie]

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