Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[LoveTKO]

I DO owe xMM big time.

 

I phoned him one evening when I knew I was very very ill and couldn't drive.

 

He cameand drove me to hospital, where I was diagnosed with acute kidney failure. He stayed until he knew I was stable. If it hadn't been for him I most probably would not be here typing this today.

 

I owe him my life because the doctors said I would have been dead in 12 hours without mediacl assistance.

 

For that I 'owe' him and am always grateful.

 

GG

 

 

Gentlegirl....come on now. What he did is something that anybody would do for a friend, acquaintance, family member, during a medical emergency. So, if it wasn't for him you wouldn't be her today? I can assume that your municipality does not have ambulances or a 911 emergency type service, correct? I'm glad you're okay tho

[SidLyon]

A simple question that another thread got me thinking:

 

Do APs “owe” each other anything?

 

Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same.

 

Thoughts?

 

In some senses I don't think APs "owe" anything - ie they have no real obligations to each other.

 

On the other hand I think that APs ought to do nothing illegal to the other, should not risk/pass on STDs to each other and should inform the other if NC is being commenced with brief reasons.

 

I feel that married people "owe" each other all of the above and much much more, including honesty and fidelity. Often what is "owed" does not occur anyway.

 

When we had our d-day my H said he would do anything I asked if I would stay with him. I realised at the time he was being manipulative but was in no position to make any sensible decisions.

 

I did say to him that it was non-negotiable that he ended the affair and that I thought he had an obligation to tell her the affair was over and that there would be no more contact. He did this in only a few words, just so you know, here is what he said:

 

"Sid has discovered our affair. I will be removing this account and I will not be contacting you again. Please do not try to contact me."

 

This was all that was owed and he agreed.

[seren]

I am of the mind that the MM owes the AP closure on D Day if only to shut the door on the A, however, I also am of the mind that the closure is part of the reconciliation process and so it is very often most beneficial for the marriage as it should effectively end the A once and for all. Of course there will be those MM who go back to the OW after doing so, personally speaking were I an OW I would tell him to jog on, knowing the opportunity to leave the marriage was there and that it was OK to hurt the AP rather than the BS.

 

As for owing the BS, well of course they are owed, the deceny of truth at the very least. let's not forget that at its most basic, a marriage is a contract, a promising to be faithful. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to agree that if the terms of the contract as understood by both is being broken, that each needs to know that the terms of the contract have been broken and so afford the other the informed choice to continue with the marriage. With the AP there is already an implicit understanding that one or both in the A are capable of saying one thing, yet meaning another.

 

It should stand to reason that to maintain the stauts quo in both camps, the WS has to lie, unless the AP is accepting that the WS is still presenting the same loving front they have always portrayed. BS really aren't stupid, any change to the norm would raise suspicions, so of course the WS will still say they love, like, have sex, show love, share day to day life. Compartmentalising isn't only the act of the WS, I think that most AP compartmentalise too, in that he is honest only with me, he has no need to lie, how can someone remain in a marriage with such close proximity, where the marriage relies on the relationship within that being maintained and not show commitment to the BS?

 

I am also of the mind that many WS make promises to the AP and swear they will follow through with them when (insert whatever is told) only to keep changing the goalposts. I can understand how an AP will believe what they are told, after all the BS is also being told lies too. The only person truly holding all the cards and the only person in the A truly aware of what are lies, what are truths is the WS, to think otherwise is naive. If the WS took off their blinkers and took a long hard look at what cheating entails maybe everyone would get what they deserved or were owed. Compartmentalising enables the lie, think about that, think about how being able to be a chameleon means that the person can change how they appear at will. Owed anything? closure maybe, expect anything, now that is a very different thing altogether.

[frozensprouts]

I do think that the two people involved in an affair owe each other a respectful ( and not cruel) goodbye when it ends. But it may not always be possible to do that...sometimes, when one person wants out, they have to be abrupt, otherwise they may find themselves making the same choices that are hurting them. They need to quit "cold turkey"...

 

as for owing each other honesty...well, I can't say that I can speak for every affair that ever happened, but it really does seem as if an awful lot of them are built on the lies that the married person tells, both to their affair partner and to themselves.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but if an married person developed romantic feelings for someone besides their spouse, I doubt they'd get very far with their new interest by being honest and saying " hey I like you and want to be more than just a friend, but I think you should know that I'm married, and my wife and I are pretty happy, not great, but, well, you know how it is after x number of years...also, we still sleep together, still do things together, and she really doesn't know anythings going on between us. If I told her, she'd be really hurt ( it would probably break her heart), and to spend time with you I'll have to stop spending so much time with her and our kids. She's actually a nice person...you'd probably like her if you ever met her. Just so that she won't suspect anything, I'll have to try and make her think nothing is wrong, but the lying to her will be really hard and I'll feel guilty, which will make me angry, and I'll take that out on her and my kids. I'll have to sneak round and hide our relationship, and my wife and I will keep having sex...hey, she won't know anythings wrong, and if she's available, why shouldn't we? Sound good to you?"

 

how many women would be willing to sign up for something like that? Most wouldn't...I would think that most would tell him to , well, stop being an ass and to smarten up. So the guy tells his tale of woe, and the other woman begins to feel sorry for him, begins to understand why he would have to cheat , after all, he tells her no one could ever understand him the way she does, least of all his wife

 

I think too, that when we love someone, we want to believe the best about them, even if there is a huge pile of evidence that they most definitely have feet of clay...

 

so while i do believe that affair partners owe each other honesty ( i'm a big believer in the idea that people should be honest) my opinion is that often, that's not what happens

[Quiet Storm]

BTW - an assumption that has been stated many times in this thread is that the BS has lost respect for their spouse over the years, and that this has in some way contributed to the existence of an affair. That is no more a "truth" than many other assumptions - and again, it is placing "blame" for the affair on the spouse (the lost respect). I can't say it enough - the BS shares responsibility for the state of the marriage - but NOT for the affair. What the BS has or has not done during the marriage did NOT cause the affair - the poor coping skills of the MP is the cause of the affair; especially if it is not an exit affair.

 

I did not mean to imply that the BS is to blame for the affair. I don't think the BS has ANY responsibility for the affair.

 

I think that from the WS view, he often feels that his needs are not being met in the marriage. This is a faulty perception, because he is bottomless pit of need, and he feels that his needs trump the needs of others. If he were to be with OW, he would likely eventually feel the same about her. So its not the BS fault at all.

 

Even in his relationship with OW, many MM have expectations that she wait for him, that she not date others, that she should be happy with the time she gets...those are all about his needs, and what he feels entitled to. He feels entitled to a devoted wife AND a devoted OW, with no regard for the feelings or needs of the women that he expects to meet his needs. He may care about their feelings in the sense that he wants to manage them, to make his life easier. But not because he actually cares about how they feel, only how their feelings are going to affect his existence. A happy wife means a happy life, right? A happy OW means she'll stay the OW longer. He strives to keep them content, but only so they'll both remain in the roles he has decided that they will play. All about him.

 

I think for many wives, the affair is not the first issue with dishonesty or conflict avoiding or selfish behavior. This is not the wife's fault. She is just married to a very flawed individual, whose coping skills have always been bad. The bad coping skills usually manifest in different ways over time. I do think that living with a person with bad coping skills for many years, can cause you to lose respect for that person. It's immature, and it gets old. It's hard to admire someone that handles their life in this manner, which is understandable. However, instead of recognizing his issues and the affect they are having on his marriage, the WS often just finds another source of admiration, from someone that he can make a new impression on. It is much easier to woo a person that doesn't know your flaws.

 

For many cheating men, it's not about who is meeting their needs. They just want to make sure those needs met. They have no problems mixing and matching people to get a full package of met needs. They are content with that.

 

Bottom line, cheaters are selfish. Their perceived wants and needs are more important than their spouses or OWs feelings, more important than the risk of his family or reputation, more important than living an authentic life.

 

It is not the BS fault. Most BS don't marry a known liar or cheater. OW voluntarily involve themselves with one.

 

It would be easy if people walked around with labels on that said things like "sociopath" or "conflict avoider" or "compulsive liar" or "personality disordered"- but they don't. We have to watch what people do to draw conclusions about the character of others.

 

As adults, we don't have parents following us around to keep us out of harms way. We have to decipher whether a person is bad news or not. We have to filter out the people who have the potential to harm us or bring drama to our lives. Taking what people say at face value, while ignoring their blatant displays of bad character, is just reckless, IMO. For the BS and the OW.

[MissBee]

That's exactly what I was getting at.

 

But that's not really true...as many MM do lie to maintain the A relationship, which was what I was getting it. A lot of MM know if they told their OW the whole truth, they wouldn't get what they want. They lie to their wife about different things than they lie to their OW about basically.

[Quiet Storm]

But that's not really true...as many MM do lie to maintain the A relationship, which was what I was getting it. A lot of MM know if they told their OW the whole truth, they wouldn't get what they want. They lie to their wife about different things than they lie to their OW about basically.

 

Right. They have a different agenda with each woman.

[Gentlegirl2]

I dunno to be quite honest.. I was unconsious for two weeks and don't remember calling him at all. Whether he is or he isn't to be thanked, I'm still here and very glad to be too.

 

Of course we have those services in Australia... whadya think it is mate?

 

Cheers from Sydney,

 

GG

[MissBee]

Right. They have a different agenda with each woman.

 

Precisely.

 

I think it's naive to believe that he tells his wife lies and tells you all truths. It is not impossible, but rather unlikely that this is the case. He just lies to you about different things than he does his wife, for obvious reasons. It's two different kinds of relationships, with different things at stake. I imagine the lies to the wife are to keep the A hidden and the marriage in tact and the lies to the OW are to keep the A going.

[pureinheart]

I DO owe xMM big time.

 

I phoned him one evening when I knew I was very very ill and couldn't drive.

 

He cameand drove me to hospital, where I was diagnosed with acute kidney failure. He stayed until he knew I was stable. If it hadn't been for him I most probably would not be here typing this today.

 

I owe him my life because the doctors said I would have been dead in 12 hours without mediacl assistance.

 

For that I 'owe' him and am always grateful.

 

GG

 

Wow GG, this is powerful...I am so glad you are here typing:love:

 

This post set a new spin in my mind as I didnot know how to respond to the OP. Even as angry as I've been with DM (we are friends now), he was mostly thoughtful and there for me...once the anger subsided, and the ability to think rationally was regained I know I owe him a lot. We are there for each other a lot now...still after everything:)

[findingnemo]

I think that there's nothing wrong with being polite, being open and frank. A message saying "It's over. My W/H found out and I have chosen to work on my M. So please do not contact me again..." is polite, concise and precise. I think this much is owed to both the BS and the AP.

 

Like many I think it helps to clarify things - something the WS should do since he/she is the cause of the confusion.

 

As for whether the WS can be honest to the AP, I find that hard to believe. The WS is juggling things all the time. He/she needs to figure out how to see the AP, still spend enough time at home to not arouse suspicion, keep the BS happy, keep the AP happy and still work a normal job. Sounds like a hell of a lot of things they have to do. At some point they have to lie to different people. Their bosses, colleagues, spouses, kids... Why in heavens name would anyone think they won't lie to the AP?

 

I don't know anyone who has an A with a MP where there's no love involved. So there must be a story. The MP must give reasons, not once but all the time. They must in their stories affirm to the AP that they have a reason to love them but are still M. They must paint a picture that convinces the AP that he/she is important to them. I don't see how they can do that without telling outright lies or lying by omission.

[trinity1]

A simple question that another thread got me thinking:

 

Do APs “owe” each other anything?

 

Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same.

 

Thoughts?

 

An extramarital relationship is a relationship between two people like any other relationship. Therefore the APs owe each other the same as people do in any other relationship: respect, honesty, kindness etc.

[trinity1]

It can't be much of a debt though when it is totally trumped by what is owed to the spouse. The AP will always be owed nothing when a WS is truly remorseful and does everything with only the feelings f the BS in mind. And that's as it should be IMHO.

 

The marriage is one relationship, the extramarital relationship another. They are separate entities.

[woinlove]

The marriage is one relationship, the extramarital relationship another. They are separate entities.

 

They share a person in common and how one treats others, the actions and words one chooses, becomes part of that person. Although, it does seem that those in LTA are often good at compartmentalization, they still carry the various pieces inside them even when they compartmentalize.

[trinity1]

This. When WH dumped the OW she wrote "so you lied when you said you'd always be there for me? You lied to me, how dare you!" and I admit I couldn't help laughing. She coached him in lying to me but couldn't deal with him lying to her also? And there were lots of lies to her.

 

What the OW is doing here is equivalent to the BS referring to the marriage vows. A love relationship has to be continually renewed. It can not be promised forever.

 

The WS in question likely was not lying when he said it, neither the promise nor the marriage vows. He meant it on that occasion, but it has to be renewed each instance. If it isn't the past promise/vow loses its validity.

[East7]

The marriage is one relationship, the extramarital relationship another. They are separate entities.

 

Really ???...

 

Since when an A deserves to be called a "relationship" ? An A is only a mirage of a relationship.

 

IMO, Love (feelings) and relationships (commitment) are 2 different things.

 

What happens with the A is that those 2 things are dissociated fraudulently : The love that should be in the Marriage is invested with the AP. When a MP is having an A they emotionally check-out of the M. The BS is told whatever reasons but the Truth : I am stressed honey, it is not you, its me....etc etc..

 

The AP is told the opposite: I love you so much but I cant' leave for now..etc etc. One day..we will be together.

 

On one side you have a REAL relationship deprived of love and on the other feelings without any commitment of with a lie of commitment.

 

Both BS and AP are victims of "Love fraud".

[trinity1]

There are three components of true love: passion, intimacy and commitment. All three are to be found in many long term EMRs.

[Gentlegirl2]

Wow GG, this is powerful...I am so glad you are here typing:love:

 

This post set a new spin in my mind as I didnot know how to respond to the OP. Even as angry as I've been with DM (we are friends now), he was mostly thoughtful and there for me...once the anger subsided, and the ability to think rationally was regained I know I owe him a lot. We are there for each other a lot now...still after everything:)

 

PIH I am glad I am here too. It could have been a different story but here I am. Many other things that I am grateful for as well. Others might not agree but I am too old and he is too old to worry about that... just N/A,

 

GG

[beenburned]

trinity,

 

Your examples are of long term EMA's.(which are rare)

 

The majority of affairs are short term, and are mainly for sex on the side. They do not share any components of a true legal committment.

 

All affairs are definately triangles, involving 3 people, simply because they involve married people.(who are legally bond and recongnized by law)

[trinity1]

trinity,All affairs are definately triangles, involving 3 people, simply because they involve married people.(who are legally bond and recongnized by law)

 

Parallel relationships, not triangular. I understand it is hard for a BS to comprehend that the WS has a love relationship where he/she is not involved.

[frozensprouts]

Parallel relationships, not triangular. I understand it is hard for a BS to comprehend that the WS has a love relationship where he/she is not involved.

 

To be honest, someone that was capable of that level of compartmentalization would scare me. I know i couldn't trust them at all. They would be so adept and so capable of lying and deceit to solve their problems.

[trinity1]

To be honest, someone that was capable of that level of compartmentalization would scare me. I know i couldn't trust them at all. They would be so adept and so capable of lying and deceit to solve their problems.

 

No different than that we have a lot of relationships in our life to many different people. Compartmentalization isn't necessary for that.

[beenburned]

trinity,

 

It doesn't matter if the long term affair involves love or not, that is not what makes it an affair.

 

It is an affair because they are involved with a married person.(not an ordinary single/dating relationship)

 

That married person already has a legally committed relationship with their spouse. Therefore an affair will always be a triangle because the married person remains married. If they divorce, then the affair relationship becomes a single/dating relationship.

[trinity1]

trinity,

 

It doesn't matter if the long term affair involves love or not, that is not what makes it an affair.

 

It is an affair because they are involved with a married person.(not an ordinary single/dating relationship)

 

That married person already has a legally committed relationship with their spouse. Therefore an affair will always be a triangle because the married person remains married. If they divorce, then the affair relationship becomes a single/dating relationship.

 

"Extramarital relationship" means a relationship outside the marriage.

 

"extramarital by 1844, from extra- + marital

 

extra- only recorded in classical Latin in extraordinarius, but much used in Medieval Latin and modern formations; it represents L. extra (adv.) "on the outside, without, except," the old fem. ablative singular of exterus "outward, outside," comparative of ex "out of" (see ex-).

 

marital c.1600, from Fr. maritale, from L. maritalis "of or belonging to married people," from maritus "married man, husband" (see marry)."

(Online Etymology Dictionary)

 

 

[woinlove]

No different than that we have a lot of relationships in our life to many different people. Compartmentalization isn't necessary for that.

 

For anyone who thinks marriage is no different than lots of other Rs with lots of other people and who wants to maintain other secret Rs on the side, they really should not get married. What is the point? Live life authentically! Live it in a way that you can be yourself, be honest and open with the people you share your life with. Having secret affairs is really not a great way to live, imo. Rather the opposite, actually. And we see a lot of the harm here, from all sides of the triangle.