Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[beenburned]

trinity,

 

I just looked up the definition of extramarital on 3 different dictionaries.

 

Sexual intercourse with anyone other than your spouse.

 

Extra curricular activities of a philandering H/W.

 

Adultery committed by a married person.

 

You are delusional if you think you can just disregard/dismiss the married person's legally binding relationship as being unimportant.(or the affair being equal)

 

It is recongized and upheld by any court in this nation as the only sanctioned and legally binding relationship.

[trinity1]

It is recongized and upheld by any court in this nation as the only sanctioned and legally binding relationship.

 

Once again, this is an international forum.

[trinity1]

And what does any of this have to do with what AP's owe each other?

 

As said below:

 

An extramarital relationship is a relationship between two people like any other relationship. Therefore the APs owe each other the same as people do in any other relationship: respect, honesty, kindness etc.

[beenburned]

trinity,

 

What country are you in that doesn't recongnize marriage as legal and binding?

[stillwater]

I think it'd be awfully difficult to have passion, intimacy and commitment with someone who is rarely seen in person and is already in a committed relationship with someone else.

 

Define "rarely". I used to see MW every day, and we'd exchange a few emails and texts too. For a while it felt like two people in a regular dating R that hung out for a couple hours at a time, then went back to their respective homes.

 

Of course in a regular R they're not going home and sharing a bed with someone they've promised to love the rest of their life so the commitment part is a delusion, but I don't see why the passion and intimacy thing would be difficult.

[Mme. Chaucer]

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

 

It's significant that you hold adults to the same standard of behavior as naughty children.

 

I hope I have grown a lot since the days when I was a teenager lying to my parents and sneaking around, which I was indeed.

 

You don't?

[LoveTKO]

Define "rarely". I used to see MW every day, and we'd exchange a few emails and texts too. For a while it felt like two people in a regular dating R that hung out for a couple hours at a time, then went back to their respective homes.

 

Of course in a regular R they're not going home and sharing a bed with someone they've promised to love the rest of their life so the commitment part is a delusion, but I don't see why the passion and intimacy thing would be difficult.

 

 

I am/was in the same boat, seeing the WS a couple of times a week and having more sex than I did when I was in my 20's, which was a lot too. But seeing each other that much kind of negates the dynamics of an affair, since an affair is about excitement, lust, passion, similar to that sensation you get when you first meet someone and can't keep your hands off each other. From my experience, the moment you develop a predictable routine when having an affair with a MW, you run the risk of creating a relationship with her that is a mirror image of what she's trying to escape from.

 

If you want to keep an affair going, you need to learn when/how to back off and have your own life. The moment you start demanding an explanation from the WS for anything(NC, etc) you are just putting more pressure on them - pressure and stress is something they're trying to escape, and that's why they have you on the side to enjoy like bacon wrapped filet Mignon that you're not supposed to eat all the time.

[Mme. Chaucer]

It is a bit different I'd say, in that teens lie to their parents so as not to get into trouble, whereas they can't really get into trouble with their friend and don't need to lie to maintain the friendship.

 

Also, the teenager has is supposed to be growing away and separating from the parents, and going through their process of individuation. Much of the time this is an awkward, painful and bumpy journey.

 

This is not "supposed" to be a feature of marriages.

[frozensprouts]

Define "rarely". I used to see MW every day, and we'd exchange a few emails and texts too. For a while it felt like two people in a regular dating R that hung out for a couple hours at a time, then went back to their respective homes.

 

Of course in a regular R they're not going home and sharing a bed with someone they've promised to love the rest of their life so the commitment part is a delusion, but I don't see why the passion and intimacy thing would be difficult.

 

passion I could see, but true intimacy, I don't know.

 

After all, there's a huge part of the married person's life that their affair partner is not part of. I think that it would be safe to say that a lot of affairs have much less intimacy than a 'regular' relationship... ( dating, friendship, marraige, etc.)

 

I have a couple of really good friends with whom I can share anything...the same is true for my spouse. There are no areas I feel i have to keep hidden ( admittedly, it took me a long time to get to that point as I am not one to fine opening up very easy) to spare their feelings or to spare my own. this is true intimacy... I don't need to tell them every aspect of my life, but I could...I don't need to compartmentalize with them...I don't think you can achieve true intimacy in a relationship where you do

 

some of the things some people say about affairs remind me of two people trapped in a stalled elevator ( or some other dangerous situation)...they may feel very close to that person, and really feel like they've opened up. But once the disaster is over, or the door opens, the two realize that they weren't as close as they thought, and they go back to their lives.Was their intimacy real, or was it borne of desperation and a sense of fear...I don't know.

 

I do agree that people should treat their affairs partners with decency, the same as one would treat anyone else.

[wannabdone]

I do think that the two people involved in an affair owe each other a respectful ( and not cruel) goodbye when it ends. But it may not always be possible to do that...sometimes, when one person wants out, they have to be abrupt, otherwise they may find themselves making the same choices that are hurting them. They need to quit "cold turkey"...

 

as for owing each other honesty...well, I can't say that I can speak for every affair that ever happened, but it really does seem as if an awful lot of them are built on the lies that the married person tells, both to their affair partner and to themselves.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but if an married person developed romantic feelings for someone besides their spouse, I doubt they'd get very far with their new interest by being honest and saying " hey I like you and want to be more than just a friend, but I think you should know that I'm married, and my wife and I are pretty happy, not great, but, well, you know how it is after x number of years...also, we still sleep together, still do things together, and she really doesn't know anythings going on between us. If I told her, she'd be really hurt ( it would probably break her heart), and to spend time with you I'll have to stop spending so much time with her and our kids. She's actually a nice person...you'd probably like her if you ever met her. Just so that she won't suspect anything, I'll have to try and make her think nothing is wrong, but the lying to her will be really hard and I'll feel guilty, which will make me angry, and I'll take that out on her and my kids. I'll have to sneak round and hide our relationship, and my wife and I will keep having sex...hey, she won't know anythings wrong, and if she's available, why shouldn't we? Sound good to you?"

 

how many women would be willing to sign up for something like that? Most wouldn't...I would think that most would tell him to , well, stop being an ass and to smarten up. So the guy tells his tale of woe, and the other woman begins to feel sorry for him, begins to understand why he would have to cheat , after all, he tells her no one could ever understand him the way she does, least of all his wife

 

I think too, that when we love someone, we want to believe the best about them, even if there is a huge pile of evidence that they most definitely have feet of clay...

 

so while i do believe that affair partners owe each other honesty ( i'm a big believer in the idea that people should be honest) my opinion is that often, that's not what happens

 

 

This is SPOT ON!!! And puts everything into perspective when so many people (BS/OW/OM) say the WS is being "honest" with them. Really? How honest??

 

I think its true that when you love someone, you are willing to believe them. Whether you are the BS, OW or OM. Thus, making the compartmentalization SO MUCH EASIER! I know someone said the AP and WS both compartmentalize, but I think often times so does the BS. Its hard to believe that someone you loved and married, and had children with can be so calculated and cold to go behind their back and do this. In my situation, every single one of us compartmentalized. I did, wanting to believe he was golden, and was just in such a horrible situation, he did living a double life (although I really do think he was able to do so guilt free because of being a sociopath) and his BS did, by wanting to blame every single thing (ie depression, sex addicition, I was chasing him), rather than accepting that he was a scum bag. After all, what does it say about us if we accept that we fell in love with such an awful human being?? Our judgment is off of people, we might be suckers and the list goes on and on.... but the basic thing is we have to realize that WE are flawed to have loved someone like this so deeply. That was extrememly hard for me. I always took pride in reading people, hell its a huge part of my job. But yet, I misread someone so horribly that I devasted my own life, but simply wanting to believe in someone. Did I want so badly to be loved that I would do this to me? Am I the stupidst human being walking? Breaking away from compartmentalization makes you see a lot more than this guy is just a huge POS.

 

But, back to the thread, outside of owing my xMM a swift kick to the balls, as I said before.

 

I really do think that it is owed to everyone involved to say.... here's whats going on. If even as simply as what sid's H said. Moving on with an honest life means, being honest with your spouse, everyone around you and yourself. This means you might have to eat crow and say "I was a miserable, lying bastard"..... I know that you might have to break cold turkey in order to not do what harmed you before, but IMO that is just carrying on the issue that most people who have A's do... avoiding conflict. Basically I guess I think when you are ending it, its time to put your big girl panties on, and close what it was that you opened.

How could a BS ever feel comfortable if they didn't see for themselves that the WS had done this? I am not sure I could ever really move on.

[trinity1]

I hope I have grown a lot since the days when I was a teenager lying to my parents and sneaking around, which I was indeed.

 

Unfortunately many MM/MW seem to still be stuck in this same pattern in their marriage.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Parallel relationships, not triangular. I understand it is hard for a BS to comprehend that the WS has a love relationship where he/she is not involved.

 

From what you've been posting, I get the impression that the married man you're having an affair with is basically a polygamous or polyamorous person. Polygamy is often described as "parallel relationships."

 

I don't believe that monogamy is for everyone, or that it's the only "right" way to live and love.

 

It's too bad that the man in your life feels he needs to continue to lie to his wife. Obviously you are comfortable with the poly lifestyle. His wife should be able to choose as well.

 

You could be "sister wives"!

[Mme. Chaucer]

Unfortunately many MM/MW seem to still be stuck in this same pattern in their marriage.

 

Then they are immature and probably not any more ready for a serious commitment than the average teenager.

[frozensprouts]

This is SPOT ON!!! And puts everything into perspective when so many people (BS/OW/OM) say the WS is being "honest" with them. Really? How honest??

 

I think its true that when you love someone, you are willing to believe them. Whether you are the BS, OW or OM. Thus, making the compartmentalization SO MUCH EASIER! I know someone said the AP and WS both compartmentalize, but I think often times so does the BS. Its hard to believe that someone you loved and married, and had children with can be so calculated and cold to go behind their back and do this. In my situation, every single one of us compartmentalized. I did, wanting to believe he was golden, and was just in such a horrible situation, he did living a double life (although I really do think he was able to do so guilt free because of being a sociopath) and his BS did, by wanting to blame every single thing (ie depression, sex addicition, I was chasing him), rather than accepting that he was a scum bag. After all, what does it say about us if we accept that we fell in love with such an awful human being?? Our judgment is off of people, we might be suckers and the list goes on and on.... but the basic thing is we have to realize that WE are flawed to have loved someone like this so deeply. That was extrememly hard for me. I always took pride in reading people, hell its a huge part of my job. But yet, I misread someone so horribly that I devasted my own life, but simply wanting to believe in someone. Did I want so badly to be loved that I would do this to me? Am I the stupidst human being walking? Breaking away from compartmentalization makes you see a lot more than this guy is just a huge POS.

 

But, back to the thread, outside of owing my xMM a swift kick to the balls, as I said before.

 

I really do think that it is owed to everyone involved to say.... here's whats going on. If even as simply as what sid's H said. Moving on with an honest life means, being honest with your spouse, everyone around you and yourself. This means you might have to eat crow and say "I was a miserable, lying bastard"..... I know that you might have to break cold turkey in order to not do what harmed you before, but IMO that is just carrying on the issue that most people who have A's do... avoiding conflict. Basically I guess I think when you are ending it, its time to put your big girl panties on, and close what it was that you opened.

How could a BS ever feel comfortable if they didn't see for themselves that the WS had done this? I am not sure I could ever really move on.

 

 

makes sense...

 

that's the thing i was getting at about compartmentalization being pretty disturbing....

 

I don't know how someone could possibly separate the two parts so completely that one doesn't affect the other...say a woman is cheating on her husband...I'd be really worried if she was able to do so and not have it affect her behavior in any way...to me, that seems really cold hearted...she'd be in two relationships where she knew both men were probably going to be hurt and that didn't affect her behavior?

 

 

about quitting the relationship cold turkey ..I was actually thinking more of the other man/woman here...so many time son here you rad stories by people who are in an affair and they aren't happy and they want out, but don't feel strong enough to end it face to face, etc. ...they know that they'll just lose their resolve and end up right back where they were. Perhaps in that situation, quitting "cold turkey" may be what's best for them...and if they feel at some point that they are strong enough to let their ex have an explanation of why they left, then perhaps that's the time to do it...

[skylarblue]

Changing the label may make one feel better about it, but it's still akin the putting lipstick on a pig. The lipstick might be purty, but it's still worn by a pig.

Isn’t that usually what BS does in effort to devalue the R and make themselves feel better?

 

I think it'd be awfully difficult to have passion, intimacy and commitment with someone who is rarely seen in person and is already in a committed relationship with someone else.

Are you speaking figuratively or literally? Are you referring APs in general or what trinity1 has stated about R specially?

[skylarblue]

Really ???...

 

Since when an A deserves to be called a "relationship" ? An A is only a mirage of a relationship.

 

A mirage of a R would be one where two people pretend to be a (in this case) romantic couple (married or singles) as presentation to others or one person is purposefully deceiving an unsuspecting someone only to access a gain by thinking they are/have a romantic interest (i.e. a con man). Defining a R based on personal likings, factors and/or requirements doesn't make the definition so, and may not be how others define a R for them. All that’s needed for a R to exist is for two people to be mutually involved. Anything else is subjective to an individual’s personal requirements and is the only thing that makes one better, equal, or less.

[wannabdone]

makes sense...

 

that's the thing i was getting at about compartmentalization being pretty disturbing....

 

I don't know how someone could possibly separate the two parts so completely that one doesn't affect the other...say a woman is cheating on her husband...I'd be really worried if she was able to do so and not have it affect her behavior in any way...to me, that seems really cold hearted...she'd be in two relationships where she knew both men were probably going to be hurt and that didn't affect her behavior?

 

 

about quitting the relationship cold turkey ..I was actually thinking more of the other man/woman here...so many time son here you rad stories by people who are in an affair and they aren't happy and they want out, but don't feel strong enough to end it face to face, etc. ...they know that they'll just lose their resolve and end up right back where they were. Perhaps in that situation, quitting "cold turkey" may be what's best for them...and if they feel at some point that they are strong enough to let their ex have an explanation of why they left, then perhaps that's the time to do it...

 

 

As usual... I completely agree with what your saying.

[Radagast]

A simple question that another thread got me thinking:

 

Do APs “owe” each other anything?

 

Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same.

 

Thoughts?

 

I don't know if this thread is intended mostly for the betrayed since it seems mostly betrayed who have replied, but if you'll permit a reply from a former "affair participant" (I was the married partner):

 

I considered that I owed my lover the following:

• sticking to the terms of our agreement until that agreement was voided, either by agreement to void it or by it being voided by one or other of us breaking the terms by our behaviour
  
• honesty, even if it was uncomfortable, since that was part of our agreement
  
• to be available to her and for her as far as was allowed by distance, work commitments and parenting demands
  
• loyalty
  
• openness and inclusion in my life as far as was appropriate to the stage of the relationship
  
• respect and courtesy
  
• authenticity
  
• a willingness to explore new territory
  

 

There were other things I willingly offered too, such as sexual exclusivity, love, affection, devotion and commitment, passion and desire, but I hesitate to put those on the list as I do not feel some of them are things one can "owe" another or that they were demanded as such by my lover. Rather they were freely offered, accepted and reciprocated, which I believe is different to things one can bind another to in a contract.

[skylarblue]

Parallel relationships, not triangular. I understand it is hard for a BS to comprehend that the WS has a love relationship where he/she is not involved.

 

I agree that As are triangular. Parallel by definition never intersect from pointA to pointB. Even if the “intersect” is once and minute, the parallel is broken. Only one missed phone call because the W is in the room throughout a 10yr A would break that parallel. Only one statement of “that’s my W calling” in a 20yr A would constitute an “intersect”. If a MM can’t behave in every aspect 100% like he would if single, even if the “intersect” doesn’t interfere in any way with the R, any action or recognition that a W exists makes the R triangular IMO. I agree with the bolded part though.

[Radagast]

Also, the teenager has is supposed to be growing away and separating from the parents, and going through their process of individuation. Much of the time this is an awkward, painful and bumpy journey.

 

This is not "supposed" to be a feature of marriages.

 

Indeed not! My counsellor made the same observation to me. I had not been a "rebellious" or difficult teenager and had always been the dutiful son, striving to please. Since I was so young when I got involved with my ex-wife he thought it was inevitable that at some point I would grow up and seek independence, having simply replaced one parent-child relationship with another, as he saw it. No doubt that makes me a very late developer but I wonder how many other errant spouses are experiencing the same dynamic.

[Radagast]

I agree that As are triangular. Parallel by definition never intersect from pointA to pointB. Even if the “intersect” is once and minute, the parallel is broken. Only one missed phone call because the W is in the room throughout a 10yr A would break that parallel. Only one statement of “that’s my W calling” in a 20yr A would constitute an “intersect”. If a MM can’t behave in every aspect 100% like he would if single, even if the “intersect” doesn’t interfere in any way with the R, any action or recognition that a W exists makes the R triangular IMO. I agree with the bolded part though.

 

Perhaps "angular" would be a better description, since a triangle requires closure, with all three points being connected to each other through solid lines. Unless the betrayed spouse and the lover have independent or preexisting relationships to each other, that side of the triangle would be missing, so it would merely be two sides intersecting at a point (the married partner).

[Mme. Chaucer]

Back to the OP -

 

 

Believe it or not, as much as I despise lying and cheating, and as much as I beat myself up for my own failings in those departments:

 

I will say that affair partners "owe" each other honesty, fairness, and all the other things that I do believe that people "owe" each other in all relationships. Things that I believe we owe it to ourselves to strive for, because I basically believe that we are supposed to be improving ourselves during our lives.

 

Just because their relationship is based upon and even dependent upon dishonesty and darkness to exist, adding more ugliness to an already messed up situation won't make the world a better place.

 

So, if a cheater can be honest to someone, it's a step in the right direction. I hope a step in the direction towards honesty in the primary relationship in his or her life, some day.

[Radagast]

passion I could see, but true intimacy, I don't know.

 

After all, there's a huge part of the married person's life that their affair partner is not part of. I think that it would be safe to say that a lot of affairs have much less intimacy than a 'regular' relationship... ( dating, friendship, marraige, etc.)

 

I have a couple of really good friends with whom I can share anything...the same is true for my spouse. There are no areas I feel i have to keep hidden ( admittedly, it took me a long time to get to that point as I am not one to fine opening up very easy) to spare their feelings or to spare my own. this is true intimacy... I don't need to tell them every aspect of my life, but I could...I don't need to compartmentalize with them...I don't think you can achieve true intimacy in a relationship where you do

 

some of the things some people say about affairs remind me of two people trapped in a stalled elevator ( or some other dangerous situation)...they may feel very close to that person, and really feel like they've opened up. But once the disaster is over, or the door opens, the two realize that they weren't as close as they thought, and they go back to their lives.Was their intimacy real, or was it borne of desperation and a sense of fear...I don't know.

 

I think that this would vary from relationship to relationship. Some marriages are intimate, others are not. Some marriages are passionate, others are not. I'm sure that variation exists in affairs too. I have only my own experience to speak from, but I have experienced greater intimacy with my wife than I knew was possible. This developed during the affair. She was able to unlock parts of me I had kept hidden from everyone else, fearing or knowing they would not be well received.

[woinlove]

Back to the OP -

 

 

Believe it or not, as much as I despise lying and cheating, and as much as I beat myself up for my own failings in those departments:

 

I will say that affair partners "owe" each other honesty, fairness, and all the other things that I do believe that people "owe" each other in all relationships. Things that I believe we owe it to ourselves to strive for, because I basically believe that we are supposed to be improving ourselves during our lives.

 

Just because their relationship is based upon and even dependent upon dishonesty and darkness to exist, adding more ugliness to an already messed up situation won't make the world a better place.

 

So, if a cheater can be honest to someone, it's a step in the right direction. I hope a step in the direction towards honesty in the primary relationship in his or her life, some day.

 

Yes! We owe it to ourselves to live honestly and with integrity. And loving someone typically makes us want to encourage them to live authentically and honestly too.

[MissBee]

Really ???...

 

Since when an A deserves to be called a "relationship" ? An A is only a mirage of a relationship.

 

IMO, Love (feelings) and relationships (commitment) are 2 different things.

 

What happens with the A is that those 2 things are dissociated fraudulently : The love that should be in the Marriage is invested with the AP. When a MP is having an A they emotionally check-out of the M. The BS is told whatever reasons but the Truth : I am stressed honey, it is not you, its me....etc etc..

 

The AP is told the opposite: I love you so much but I cant' leave for now..etc etc. One day..we will be together.

 

On one side you have a REAL relationship deprived of love and on the other feelings without any commitment of with a lie of commitment.

 

Both BS and AP are victims of "Love fraud".

 

This is such a perceptive way of looking at it and so true!