Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[Summer Breeze]

But frozen you know he's capable of being that cruell because he was that cruel to you. To me I would never stay with someone who was capable of being that cruel to me but god forbid he's ever be cruel to someone who hurt me deeply or helped him to hurt me... If he had been like that I don't think any of us would still be alive... Well not all in one piece.

 

I see it as a loyalty empathy thing. If he gets how much his and her cruelty hurt me then she gets no quarter, no consideration, doesn't deserve to be spat on if she's on fire figuratively. He didn't really get that until she acted crazy. That's what showed him just how deeply she had hurt me because he could no linger say it was because he led her to. This was her, purely her. And then he finally got it and showed total loyalty.

 

She gave up her right to expect politeness and consideration and well wishes for her happiness when she got involved knowingly with a married man with the intention of breaking up his family. She had no rights during the A but she got indulgences. Now those are gone she still has no rights. This is the bit I don't get that OW don't get. You weren't the wife, you have no rights if he decides to stay.

 

If he decides to leave for you well then you have a different ball game. But even then I think it's a bit rich to expect fidelity given the history

 

 

And yet you expect fidelity? She shouldn't if he leaves but you should if he stays. That's rich.

[Owl]

Once again, this is an international forum.

 

So is an affair legally or emotionally different in your country than it is in the United States? If so, I'd love to hear how, and I think it would have true bearing to help others understand your mindset on EMR's as opposed to that of others.

 

How are affairs different in your country?

[Spark1111]

And yet you expect fidelity? She shouldn't if he leaves but you should if he stays. That's rich.

 

I don't find it rich.

 

An OW/OM, the vast majority of the time, engage in the affair with the full knowledge that the MP is lying and decieving a spouse, every which way they can......with you.....because they are soooooo unhappy at home.

 

Since they didn't vow fidelity to you, and you didn't vow it to the spouse, this follows the line of thinking that really NO ONE should be all that upset if they continue to lie to the spouse to be with you.....and then start to lie to you once committed to be with another.

 

If it was okay for them to do it WITH you, to another....how could you be so upset when they do it TO you with another.

 

Can't have it both ways, SB: either they show integrity and honesty in their dealings with all, or they do not.

 

Do not tell me you still believe the adolescent notion that men reform for the love of a good, or the "right" woman?

 

That's a whopping three out of 100. Doubt they are posting here at LS.

 

The rest are simply users of vulnerable female flesh.

[Furious]

Do affair partners owe each other honesty and consideration when it ends or perhaps before it ends.

 

In my situation my husband described the affair as a hoiiday from reality.

 

The affair is only as honest as long as it is secret.

 

What a web of lies, between the affair partners and the "marriage partners",

It's sad, truly sad for everyone involved.

[Mme. Chaucer]

So is an affair legally or emotionally different in your country than it is in the United States? If so, I'd love to hear how, and I think it would have true bearing to help others understand your mindset on EMR's as opposed to that of others.

 

How are affairs different in your country?

 

Maybe she is a member if the Inuit tribe; Canadian contingency? As far as I know, though, the custom is to share wives, but not husbands.

[MissBee]

Perhaps expectations and trust are being conflated.

 

I think as a married person you can and should expect fidelity from your spouse; however, if they have been in an A, once or several times, then while you may have that expectation, can you trust them? How likely are your expectations going to be met?

 

Whereas, expecting fidelity from an affair partner is a bit more oxymoronic and dicey.

 

The issue of trust is the issue that both a BS reconciling or an OW who ends up with the MM have to contend with. As Spark said, it's naive to believe someone will reform because of the "right person"....so it stands to reason that a former cheater has to change his/her own ways and has to grow in that regard and not simply "stop the A" and is now mysteriously faithful with no further work or "leaves the M" and is also mysteriously faithful with no further work. A reconciling BS or OW turned legitimate partner has to come to figure out whether or not this person is genuine and if it is even possible for them to be faithful...regardless of whatever expectations they may have.

[Anywhere]

Any person that someone professes to love should be owed kindness and consideration.People that are using each other as f! toys undoubtedly don't care if they get anything. I think it depends on the level and depth of the relationship and affair.I think ultimately if you are crossing that line you owe that person decency as well as physical safety.

[TheRightWoman]

In a perfect world, i think they owe each other the truth so no one gets hurt. I knew MM was lying to his W but I guess I thought I was the one person who saw all of him because I knew his secrets. I felt I was owed the truth and I was owed more respect. I guess I also felt he owed it to me to keep his promises because I waited for him but everyone has made it pretty clear my thinking was wrong.

[whichwayisup]

In a perfect world, i think they owe each other the truth so no one gets hurt. I knew MM was lying to his W but I guess I thought I was the one person who saw all of him because I knew his secrets. I felt I was owed the truth and I was owed more respect. I guess I also felt he owed it to me to keep his promises because I waited for him but everyone has made it pretty clear my thinking was wrong.

 

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be affairs! Just sayin'..

 

Affairs = Pain ALL around. Nobody leaves an affair smiling.

[TheRightWoman]

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be affairs! Just sayin'..

 

Affairs = Pain ALL around. Nobody leaves an affair smiling.

 

Yes, i agree. I swear, no more affairs for me. Ever. I have learned that much!!

[Summer Breeze]

What's rich about it? Typically, when a BS agrees to reconcile with a BS, they do so with caveat that the WS stop cheating.

 

On the other hand, it'd be rather hypocritical of an OW to make the WS stop the behavior that benefited her. For an OW to expect fidelity is rather rich, IMO.

 

My response was specific to the poster and not general. She has a WS who has been yanking her around for a year and made minimal efforts to put the OW well and truly out of their lives. Everything she writes screams about how he's manipulating her. Why should she expect anything but more of the same with the way she's describing he's acting?

 

Outside her situation why wouldn't an OW who has ended up with MM expect less than everything they commit to each other? What he delivers and how she reacts if it's bad are completely up to her, as it is up to the BS. I disagree with YO. We can all exchange promises and expect things (marriage, affair, friendship) but what we get may not be what we were promised. I know you'll counter with how can you trust him when he's come into the R married. I still trust my xMM expliictly and I still don't trust my xH at all. There was no betrayal from xMM and betrayal from xH was something I personally could never have gotten over. The OW in his case became his W and from what I know from his family they have been happy and he's been faithful to her. IMO she should have expected nothing less once he committed to her.

[Summer Breeze]

I don't find it rich.

 

An OW/OM, the vast majority of the time, engage in the affair with the full knowledge that the MP is lying and decieving a spouse, every which way they can......with you.....because they are soooooo unhappy at home.

 

Since they didn't vow fidelity to you, and you didn't vow it to the spouse, this follows the line of thinking that really NO ONE should be all that upset if they continue to lie to the spouse to be with you.....and then start to lie to you once committed to be with another.

 

If it was okay for them to do it WITH you, to another....how could you be so upset when they do it TO you with another.

Because to me trust isn't given lightly and once it's broken it's shattered for good. If I do trust someone I don't do it halfway. It's all or nothing. I don't mess around once betrayed by anyone at all. I take people as they treat me and I don't allow them to set the rules to suit just them. I would fully expect someone who commits to me to be true.

 

Can't have it both ways, SB: either they show integrity and honesty in their dealings with all, or they do not.

It's not having it both ways. If there had been one thing the xMM had lied to me about I'd have ended it in a heartbeat. I don't expect it to go 'both ways'. I expect me to protect myself in a relationship and if anyone hurts me I examine and react accordingly.

 

Do not tell me you still believe the adolescent notion that men reform for the love of a good, or the "right" woman?

No I believe in the adult notion that people sometimes bring out the best in each other and yes I do believe it can change people. I learned in my first M you can't change someone but they can change for someone if they choose to. I couldn't make him change for me but he did change for his OW (now W).

 

That's a whopping three out of 100. Doubt they are posting here at LS.

 

The rest are simply users of vulnerable female flesh.

 

My responses in bold.

[frozensprouts]

My response was specific to the poster and not general. She has a WS who has been yanking her around for a year and made minimal efforts to put the OW well and truly out of their lives. Everything she writes screams about how he's manipulating her. Why should she expect anything but more of the same with the way she's describing he's acting?

 

Outside her situation why wouldn't an OW who has ended up with MM expect less than everything they commit to each other? What he delivers and how she reacts if it's bad are completely up to her, as it is up to the BS. I disagree with YO. We can all exchange promises and expect things (marriage, affair, friendship) but what we get may not be what we were promised. I know you'll counter with how can you trust him when he's come into the R married. I still trust my xMM expliictly and I still don't trust my xH at all. There was no betrayal from xMM and betrayal from xH was something I personally could never have gotten over. The OW in his case became his W and from what I know from his family they have been happy and he's been faithful to her. IMO she should have expected nothing less once he committed to her.

 

summerbreeze...

 

i think I can understand where you are coming from, but, to be honest, I have to wonder how you know that your ex married man is , or was, completely honest with you.

 

It's like the idea that a betrayed spouse can never really know what their spouse said to their affair partner. I know some of what my husband said to her ( through emails they exchanged, etc.) but I don't know the sundry "little things' he may/may not have said to her, nor her to him.

 

I can't remember your story, but is it at all possible that your ex married man's wife may know about the affair and he's painted a different picture of what happened to his wife? If he did, would you consider that a betrayal of your trust in him?

[donnamaybe]

My responses in bold.

But as regards this:

I couldn't make him change for me but he did change for his OW (now W).

 

How do you know he isn't cheating on her? There is no way one could know unless they were the one doing the cheating or not.

[findingnemo]

So is an affair legally or emotionally different in your country than it is in the United States? If so, I'd love to hear how, and I think it would have true bearing to help others understand your mindset on EMR's as opposed to that of others.

 

How are affairs different in your country?

 

I, too, am anxious to hear how As are emotionally different in other cultures. There is a thread in the dating section where the OP googled and found out about certain practices where people share their spouses. He then decided that in Africa, some tribes are more "realistic" about these things or something to that effect. Sadly the practice mentioned is from my tribe and it's an outdated practice that no one should be quoting. I hope this isn't a reference to Africa or Africans because I can assure you (general) that we love and feel like everybody else.

 

So trinity, which culture are you referring to?

[beenburned]

FS,

 

That is why I started the thread "the truth of d-day".

 

I'm sure both of the OW that my D's H was involved with, thought he was being truthful with them. Until they found out about each other, and called my D asking for the truth about their d-day.

 

He had totally and completely lied to everyone about everything just so he could be a cake eater. He used them all for his selfish purpose.

 

When they all found out the truth, they all dropped him from their lives. The divorce is still being dragged out by him after over a year and a half.

 

He now has a young new GF that doesn't know anything about his past. I feel sorry for her as he is nothing but a con artist.

[Summer Breeze]

But as regards this:

 

How do you know he isn't cheating on her? There is no way one could know unless they were the one doing the cheating or not.

 

I don't know for a fact but I'm still very close to my stepkids who really struggled when it all happened. They both live in very close proximity to their dad and have done for almost the full time of this M. He got over some issues from his childhood with counselling and he's made his peace with me and with them. I also am related to his best friend and spend some time in the same town. He retired early and they've spent years going places and taking care of that R. Sometimes it hurts he didn't do the same for me but that's life and I've had a great one myself. He's surrounded himself with good things and I firmly believe he's finally gotten it right. You're right he could be and your man could be cheating on you. I choose to take what I see and hear, combine it with what I know and feel, and I think he's got it right finally.

[donnamaybe]

I don't know for a fact but I'm still very close to my stepkids who really struggled when it all happened. They both live in very close proximity to their dad and have done for almost the full time of this M. He got over some issues from his childhood with counselling and he's made his peace with me and with them. I also am related to his best friend and spend some time in the same town. He retired early and they've spent years going places and taking care of that R. Sometimes it hurts he didn't do the same for me but that's life and I've had a great one myself. He's surrounded himself with good things and I firmly believe he's finally gotten it right. You're right he could be and your man could be cheating on you. I choose to take what I see and hear, combine it with what I know and feel, and I think he's got it right finally.

Ahhh, had to sneak that one in, eh? My man has many many years under his belt without being a cheater. He deals with things quite forthrightly, regardless the consequences to himself or others. The man you speak of, however, has a history of cheating and lying.

[donnamaybe]

I've been thinking about this since the inception of this thread, and I just have to say that humans owe each other common courtesy and decency. That being said, I believe that includes not setting out to hurt and deceive. Period. Do A partners EVER do that anyway? Set out to not hurt and deceive? Oh, hee-YELL no! So why should anyone have any better expectations at the end? Of course there are the occasions where one party is completely lied to by an MM/MW. Maybe they could at least have the gonads to apologize to the person they decieved once the truth came out. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[beenburned]

SB,

 

Lots of people grow and change after a divorce.

 

I see it as your XH wasn't capable back then, of being the person he is now.

Yes, his new wife will benefit from the improved him.

 

The same could be said about my H. In the early years of our marriage, he wasn't capable of being faithful to anybody because of all of his issues.

 

He now is a completely different person from years ago. I benefited from this because I stayed married to him. But if I had divorced him years ago, it would have been his new wife that would have benefited from his growth.

[Summer Breeze]

Ahhh, had to sneak that one in, eh? My man has many many years under his belt without being a cheater. He deals with things quite forthrightly, regardless the consequences to himself or others. The man you speak of, however, has a history of cheating and lying.

 

I don't sneak things in. If I have something to say I say it. The reason I said that is because I know you have a strong and solid R and it is inconcievable to you that he could cheat. But you don't know any more than any other BS until they find out. That was my point.

 

So you're saying that Phoenix and Seren's Hs obviously can't be trusted because they have a history of cheating and lying? I disagree. He did it and then he fixed himself, as far as I know. He did the hard work necessary to not repeat what he'd done. Why should he be looked at any differently to husbands that reconcile---just because it was with his OW and not me? I don't buy that at all.

[beenburned]

DM,

 

I think those expectations come from a place of being naive and trusting.

 

And also not being able to see the whole big picture of who the MM really is.

They are only looking at a few snapshots and trying to perceive a whole unknown reality.

[Summer Breeze]

SB,

 

Lots of people grow and change after a divorce.

 

I see it as your XH wasn't capable back then, of being the person he is now.

Yes, his new wife will benefit from the improved him.

 

The same could be said about my H. In the early years of our marriage, he wasn't capable of being faithful to anybody because of all of his issues.

 

He now is a completely different person from years ago. I benefited from this because I stayed married to him. But if I had divorced him years ago, it would have been his new wife that would have benefited from his growth.

 

Excellent post and one of the reasons I think I come in here and post is to kind of ponder not staying with him. The Road Not Taken thing maybe? A friend and I were talking a few months ago and she said something about what happened being wonderfully right for them and horribly wrong for me. I don't regret leaving because I don't believe in regrets. I do wonder. Of course I wonder what it would have been like to buy the Jeep rather than the Toyota too!

[donnamaybe]

I don't sneak things in. If I have something to say I say it. The reason I said that is because I know you have a strong and solid R and it is inconcievable to you that he could cheat. But you don't know any more than any other BS until they find out. That was my point.

 

So you're saying that Phoenix and Seren's Hs obviously can't be trusted because they have a history of cheating and lying? I disagree. He did it and then he fixed himself, as far as I know. He did the hard work necessary to not repeat what he'd done. Why should he be looked at any differently to husbands that reconcile---just because it was with his OW and not me? I don't buy that at all.

I don't know, but I'm thinking that most of the BS on this forum probably married MUCH younger than the age at which I met my current man. They probably didn't have knowledge of 35+ years of adult fidelity and honesty under the belts of their H's. Also, their spouses still had a lot of growing to do. Yes, I'm old. Well, not THAT old, but old enough that I know many MANY people who have known my man for many MANY years (most of them, all his life) and he has a track record that cannot be matched by any other man I know as regards honesty and integrity and a general caring for others, even when he gets no benefit from said caring. AND - people who reconcile are in MUCH closer proximity to their H/W's than an outsider. Which is what you are in the circumstance described.

Edited April 24, 2012 by donnamaybe

[beenburned]

SB,

 

I don't know anything about the specifics of your first marriage.

 

But I do know that many of my friends regret being so hasty in filing for divorce in their first marriages. Most of it was immaturity/youth and not having the skills then to try and make their marriages better.

 

They, like you, wonder what it would have been like to be with the new improved H.(since sadly most were high school/college sweethearts)