Wife is not cooperating with divorce idea

[Garymustang1977]

Hello All,

 

Our marriage died years ago and about six months ago I told my wife that neither of us is benefitting from prolonging the inevitable. Why live in a dead marriage that prevents either of us from moving on? I've posted earlier about the mechanics of a legal divorce and a house sale.

 

My wife is refusing to negotiate the sale of the house and insists that she wants to keep it. Okay, great. I'd love for her to live there, but she simply can't afford it on her own salary and once I move out it's hers! However, she's refusing to come to the table to negotiate and is strategizing so that if she doesn't negotiate then she keeps me locked into the marriage and on the hook legally for the house.

 

You'd think she'd be sick and tired of me talking about divorce all this time, but no. She acts like everything is just fine and just peachy. Seriously! Sure, I'd like my share of the house in a sale, but my sanity and freedom are much more valuable, and I'm almost to the point of just giving it to her. Of course, I'd need to get my name off the mortgage so my credit isn't ruined.

 

Okay, my question is: Has anyone here experienced a spouse who's in denial about wanting a divorce and how have you handled it?

 

Thanks for all of your good thoughts,

Gary:D

[darkmoon]

all i know is one man who was like you, but to his surprised wife, well, she was like "we both made those vows..."

Edited April 23, 2012 by darkmoon

[carhill]

Is the home loan a recourse or non-recourse loan?

 

Generally, though there are IMO no 'winners' in divorce, rather only levels of losing, the person who cares the least 'wins'.

 

Myself, I'd do a bit of financial planning and walk away from the whole deal. Default on the 55K of non-recourse debt and let her and the bank have the house, presuming it's a non-recourse loan, as most firsts are. Sounds dishonorable on the surface but there's very little honor left in this society. Look around. I just bought another house because someone did just that; walked away and left a smokin' good deal that a bank was wetting itself to get rid of. It's everywhere. It's business, in this case, the business of divorce.

[Garymustang1977]

Thank you, darkmoon and Carhill for the replies.

 

Yes, darkmoon, vows are one thing, but if a spouse doesn't hold up their end of the bargain then what's the point. I made the mistake of doing everything around the house and work, and providing my wife an easy lifestyle. She had plenty of free time to herself, and ignored her family and mine (we have no children).

 

For the past few years she's chosen to live on the internet with virtual friends and on Facebook. Of course, responsibilities around the house go by the wayside and I pick up the slack. Well, that gets old and I've realized that I want out and want to live my own life and with someone who'll actually be an equal partner and share common interests.

 

Currently, my wife and I don't do much together (including sex), but routine things and she's confusing that for a "healthy" marriage, but we disagree on many fundamental issue like politics, religion, sex, so it makes for a dissatisfying relationship - to me, at least.

 

She likes it just the way it is because it's convenient and she's "afraid to be alone." She used those terms recently. I've told her a roommate is in order then, but she'll have none of that because she can't stand anyone in our house. It disrupts her time on the internet. Heaven forbid she should have to actually talk to someone in person. LOL.

 

Carhill, I'm strongly agreeing with your proposal. Yes, we have a non-recourse loan with, as you know from my first post on a different topic, a relatively small balance left on the note, but about 55K in credit card debt. I'm beginning to think that it's not worth the mental hassle of putting the house on the market (which she's refusing to do anyway), sell it at an undervalued price (bad market right now), pay off the note and debt only to be left with maybe $20K for my share of the proceeds.

 

She's not seen the light that because of my much lowered income that we cannot afford to live the same lifestyle. Which, by the way, is very (lower) middle-class with no vacations, new cars (a couple of paid off 12 year-old-cars), clubs and movies, or any sort of extra luxury expense. We have old appliances and electronics. She cannot grasp that you cannot pay for things that you cannot afford, thus, the credit card debt that slowly crept up on us. She's the banker and pays all the bills, so I really wasn't aware of the high amount, but that doesn't exclude me from my responsibility for it.

 

You said:

• I'd do a bit of financial planning and walk away from the whole deal. Default on the 55K of non-recourse debt and let her and the bank have the house.
  

Our house lacks about a 45K payoff. It's our credit card debt that's 55K (shocking, I know). In a good market our house might appraise for $150K and is in a nice neighborhood. (There are three other houses for sale on our street and have been for six months, at least.) Is there a way for me to sign off on the credit card debt to her if I agree to give her the house? I know I'm responsible for half that debt, but she's coming out on the better side if I give her the house.

 

You're completely right, there's very little honor in this society and it's all about business and, like you say, divorce comes down to business in the end. She's refusing to come to the bargaining table, so I've got very little leverage except to give her the house and walk away. (She says I deserve nothing because I'm the one asking for a divorce.) I'm not clear that if I sign over the house if she'd need to re-qualify for the loan, or that the mortgage company have documents allowing a spouse to transfer the title from one to another. I just don't want my name attached to the loan if she defaults and I'm stuck with 7 years of a bad credit report.

 

I appreciate your well-thought-out advice,

Gary

[darkmoon]

you must quietly go to a lawyer if you're unhappy, leaving the home you shared can look like desertion in the eyes of the law, and given she wants no divorce i hope she's not too bitter and vengeful - you'll need a lawyer

[maybealone]

Our house lacks about a 45K payoff. It's our credit card debt that's 55K (shocking, I know). In a good market our house might appraise for $150K and is in a nice neighborhood.

 

Obviously laws may be different where you live, but based on what my lawyer told me, in this situation she would likely have to refinance the house for $120k. That would pay off the joint mortgage, the joint credit card debt, and give you the $20k you would get for profit if the house had sold. You could get some sort of agreement drawn up giving her a deadline to have the house refinanced or it is put up for sale.

 

In my area, if the spouse that wants to keep the house simply cannot afford it, the judge can order it sold.

 

Is there a way for me to sign off on the credit card debt to her if I agree to give her the house?

 

Maybe, but any credit cards that are joint could still adversely affect your credit if she didn't pay them. And she would still have to at least refinance the $45k.

 

You could (theoretically, depending on where you live) just have her refinance $100k to cover the house and credit card debt, and give up the $20k profit (if a judge lets you). Refinancing $100k on a house worth $150k might be easier for her since it would have so much equity.

 

Again, this all depends on where you live so I would contact a lawyer and see what your options are.

 

Edited to add: I just noticed you said it would be worth $150k in a good market. My $20k profit was based on it selling for $150k, so you might not be entitled to that much. You might want to get an appraisal to see what you are really looking at.

Edited April 23, 2012 by maybealone

[Garymustang1977]

Thank you, maybealone and BrighterWashing for your words of wisdom. To address maybealone's point, I can't afford an attorney at the moment, but it's probably going to be the "smartest" thing to do if it comes down to push and shove. Right now it's a matter of getting her to let go and negotiate.

 

BrighterWashing is exactly right, my wife is depressed and she's acknowledged that. In her state, it's about holding on to false hope. Yes, we've already gone to two marriage counselors.

 

The first counselor was a nice guy who simply asked us at the top of the session what we're here for. I told him that I no longer loved my wife and am not attached to her emotionally, I'd like to move on with my life, but can't for financial reasons right now move out, so I'd like the tools to better communicate with her while I'm at the house. He then turned to her and asked the same question to which she said that she didn't want a divorce and that she felt I still loved her.

 

The counselor retorted back that it sounded to him like I was clear what I wanted and that she needs to respect those wishes. He then focused on her for the next hour and pretty much didn't say to much to me. He wanted to assure her that it's okay to be angry and sad, but that you cannot belive that the other partner just needs to be "fixed" in order to save the marriage. He said she needed to take care of her own needs.

 

My wife was pissed after the session. She only wanted to hear that, basically, it was all my fault and that I'm the one who's not thinking straight. Uh, it was pretty obvious to the counselor who wasn't thinking straight.

 

Humility and acessability to others has always been my wife's major shortcomming. She's effectively alientaed all of her actual (living, breathing) old friends who can't understand why she's never in contact with them, and has traded them for virtual friends online.

 

She's a darling online with her advice to others and soaks up the adoration from her virtual friends. I can understand being helpful online (like those on this board) and speaking from real life experiences, but for the love of god, it's not a substitute for living and having actual relatiohships with friends and loved ones.

 

The second counselor I saw alone because my wife said, "What's the point of me going when they're just going to tell you to get divorced." I pointed out that she's only looking for a specific outcome, and that if she didn't hear what she wanted to hear then it wasn't valid advice.

 

I went to the counselor (a nice woman, mid-50s) alone and she told me that it sounded to her like I knew what I wanted. Okay, that was pretty much as I expected because I'm very clear about what I want. I'm, by no means, being ugly to my wife or disrespectful and have told that I know divorce is painful, but living as two unhappy people is a worse fate. We're only cheating ourselves out of happiness that we can get back as people on their own. She refuses to believe that, of course.

 

That was about 6-8 weeks ago and since then I've told her that I'd help her to find a counselor for her to see so that she can better cope with the situation, but she's done nothing. I've almost begged her. In a sense I'm trapped because I can't afford to move out on my own, but at the same time it's draining me emotionally.

 

Yes, you are correct, if she doesn't want a divorce why would she cooperate? It's a stalmate at this point.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how to proceed. I assured her that I woulnd't just file without her awareness, but that her doing nothing is not an option either. I know I'm going to look like the "bad guy" in all of this, but I'm willing to take that hit. Nobody has a right to judge unless you've lived their life. I just want to move on and be a happier person. She cannot be happy with me where there's no affection or intimacy, so in effect, she's willing to accept that with the trade-off that I don't leave. That's not a marriage, in my opinion.

 

Thanks for all of your great advice,

Gary

[coopster]

Thank you, maybealone and BrighterWashing for your words of wisdom. To address maybealone's point, I can't afford an attorney at the moment, but it's probably going to be the "smartest" thing to do if it comes down to push and shove. Right now it's a matter of getting her to let go and negotiate.

 

BrighterWashing is exactly right, my wife is depressed and she's acknowledged that. In her state, it's about holding on to false hope. Yes, we've already gone to two marriage counselors.

 

The first counselor was a nice guy who simply asked us at the top of the session what we're here for. I told him that I no longer loved my wife and am not attached to her emotionally, I'd like to move on with my life, but can't for financial reasons right now move out, so I'd like the tools to better communicate with her while I'm at the house. He then turned to her and asked the same question to which she said that she didn't want a divorce and that she felt I still loved her.

 

The counselor retorted back that it sounded to him like I was clear what I wanted and that she needs to respect those wishes. He then focused on her for the next hour and pretty much didn't say to much to me. He wanted to assure her that it's okay to be angry and sad, but that you cannot belive that the other partner just needs to be "fixed" in order to save the marriage. He said she needed to take care of her own needs.

 

My wife was pissed after the session. She only wanted to hear that, basically, it was all my fault and that I'm the one who's not thinking straight. Uh, it was pretty obvious to the counselor who wasn't thinking straight.

 

Humility and acessability to others has always been my wife's major shortcomming. She's effectively alientaed all of her actual (living, breathing) old friends who can't understand why she's never in contact with them, and has traded them for virtual friends online.

 

She's a darling online with her advice to others and soaks up the adoration from her virtual friends. I can understand being helpful online (like those on this board) and speaking from real life experiences, but for the love of god, it's not a substitute for living and having actual relatiohships with friends and loved ones.

 

The second counselor I saw alone because my wife said, "What's the point of me going when they're just going to tell you to get divorced." I pointed out that she's only looking for a specific outcome, and that if she didn't hear what she wanted to hear then it wasn't valid advice.

 

I went to the counselor (a nice woman, mid-50s) alone and she told me that it sounded to her like I knew what I wanted. Okay, that was pretty much as I expected because I'm very clear about what I want. I'm, by no means, being ugly to my wife or disrespectful and have told that I know divorce is painful, but living as two unhappy people is a worse fate. We're only cheating ourselves out of happiness that we can get back as people on their own. She refuses to believe that, of course.

 

That was about 6-8 weeks ago and since then I've told her that I'd help her to find a counselor for her to see so that she can better cope with the situation, but she's done nothing. I've almost begged her. In a sense I'm trapped because I can't afford to move out on my own, but at the same time it's draining me emotionally.

 

Yes, you are correct, if she doesn't want a divorce why would she cooperate? It's a stalmate at this point.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how to proceed. I assured her that I woulnd't just file without her awareness, but that her doing nothing is not an option either. I know I'm going to look like the "bad guy" in all of this, but I'm willing to take that hit. Nobody has a right to judge unless you've lived their life. I just want to move on and be a happier person. She cannot be happy with me where there's no affection or intimacy, so in effect, she's willing to accept that with the trade-off that I don't leave. That's not a marriage, in my opinion.

 

Thanks for all of your great advice,

Gary

 

 

ok in bold. would love to break down you last post and quote you as you say it ,.

 

The first counselor was a nice guy who simply asked us at the top of the session what we're here for. I told him that I no longer loved my wife and am not attached to her emotionally, I'd like to move on with my life

 

So why oh why... bother going to counselling???

 

He then focused on her for the next hour and pretty much didn't say to much to me

 

You made it clear what YOU wanted, he needed to ascertain what SHE wanted!

 

My wife was pissed after the session...

 

Really??

 

Can you blame her?

 

The point of going to MC is to sort the point out....not to make one

[beenburned]

gary,

 

Almost all lawyers do free hourly consultations.

 

Just get the yellow pages out and start calling the ones in your city. Then set up an appointment for several different ones, in order to find the lawyer you like best.

 

My D interviewed 4 before she decided on one for her divorce. Also ask friends/co-workers who they recommend with experience.

[maybealone]

I could not find a lawyer that did a free consultation, but I got a good one and went in prepared with questions, spreadsheets of our financials, etc. It cost me $90 for a half hour of her time. I did not have to agree to use her again, or to have the firm handle the divorce, nothing. Call around and try for free consultations, but if you can't find one, find one you can afford and go in prepared. My lawyer told me that she usually spends a half hour just getting information out of people, but I had come in with that information already prepared.

[Garymustang1977]

Hello, and thank you all for your good responses.

 

Coopster, counseling was my idea. I told her I wanted to explore every avenue and give her a chance to accept my desire for divorce because it's inevitable. I told her I'd like to better communicate with her about that.

 

She's been resistant to the idea the entire time, but gave in hoping the counselor could "fix" me, and that I'd change my mind. That's a poor attitude, of course. In her mind she's done nothing wrong. And my point of view is, "You know what, she has done nothing wrong. She is who she is and that's okay, but this is not the person I want to live with the rest of my life."

 

I have no criticisms for my wife and even say she's a "good" woman and would make a good partner with the right man, but it's no longer me. I don't want to be ugly or disrespectful towards my wife and I do have concern for her mental state, but I'm not in love with my wife. I care for her like a good friend.

 

I agree with you that carhill's advice is solid. I can tell he speaks from experience.

 

Beenburned and maybealone, thanks for your comments about attorneys. I may need an attorney if my wife is not willing to cooperate.

 

BrighterWashing, thank you for your comments. To be clear, yes, it was ME who suggested counseling and WE both selected a counselor we thought we'd like by looking at his website and his online videos. He just didn't tell her what she wanted to hear.

 

I am not disrespecting my wife's condition. In fact, she's been depressed for a few years now that I just recently found out what the signs are. I sincerely wanted to better communicate with her and that's why I suggested counseling.

 

You said: "All she's getting from you is that it's over. Not even an attempt to stand by her in her illness." Not true! It's me who does all the grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning around the house, house maintenance, car repair and such. But that's just me. I enjoy doing those things. But when your partner decides that she doesn't need to help and that being online with virtual friends is more important, then that's another matter. By me doing all the things I've mentioned, she's confusing that with me loving her. No, I'm a responsible person and like a clean home.

 

I'm well aware that she needs to treat her depression, but she doesn't want to. She's told me that she's depressed, but blames me for it. Okay, clearly that's not straight thinking. I can understand that my wanting a divorce only adds to the mental anguish, but to blame me is not the complete truth.

 

How can I help someone who doesn't want to help themselves? Have I made myself more clear? In effect, I've become a caregiver or a sympathetic roommate. That's not a marriage.

 

I'm well aware that I'm going to be looked at as "the bad guy" in all of this. In fact, some of her virtual friends have suggested that I'm an "ass" for wanting a divorce and how dare he leave her when she's depressed.

 

I've pointed out and posed the question to my wife: "Why then, would you want to live with an "ass" like me?" No answer. The answer is clear to me, because I'm convenient and do everything around the house. Once again, that's not love. Surely, someone on this board has been there and in my position.

 

Thanks for all your comments,

Gary

[14afreshstart]

Gary,

 

this is truly sad. simply the sign of the times. what does the word commitment means? does giving your word to someone mean anything? saying i do before god and friend should be more than enough to keep a marriage together barring any major issues (physical/mental/drug abuse, cheating, etc..

 

please don't take it the wrong way and i don't mean to hurt your feelings. for me it's very simple, when you say i do it simply means i do and you hold that forever and ever. in other words if you go into a marriage willingly and voluntarily, the mere thought, or better yet allowing oneself to accept divorce as a viable option is exactly where people start going wrong. simply accepting divorce as an option is where marriages start going astray, again discounting major marital issues.

 

what does through thick and thin means? what does through sickness and health mean? doesn't it mean you stick together forever? i must be from the stone age then.

 

sorry, obviously i see this from a different perspective with me being on the other side of this equation where my wife divorced me after 15 yrs of marriage with 4 kids.

 

i thought marriage was about the union not the individual. i think the words marriage and selfishness can not coexist in the same sentence together. i am an avid believer that there's a fix for everything only if we make up our minds and choose to see all the options out there except divorce, and above all not give up. why, because once we're married we're supposed to be signed up for life. we all know we make a big commitment when we decide to get married. these decisions (thank god you have no kids) should not be taken lightly, that's why we date for years, and then get engaged and wait again, if someone is having second thoughts then they shouldn't commit.

 

failure only materializes when it's accepted but not rejected. i sincerely wish you the best, but also feel bad for your wife who obviously has some issues and now will find herself whether you like it or not being abandoned by her soul mate who promised her he'll be there by her side, who has allowed themselves to slip away emotionally and now there's no love, he's changing his mind because it is now about "me".

 

we as individuals are the keepers of our own emotions, we are responsible, and have been entrusted before our own conscionse, god, friends, and family to hold on to that covenant, to hold on to the trust that has been placed in our hands to safe guard forever. if a couple drifts apart, then it's incumbent upon both of them to work at it genuinely with 100% focus on improving the relationship with divorce not being an option at all.

 

someone please wake me up i must be dreaming, where is this world heading to. after all the whole idea of a marriage is being one united not about a "me" mentality. and, should one person slips into this me mentality then it's incumbent upon their partner to lead them out not use that as an excuse to break up the union. simply said, for me it is about keeping your word.

 

Sincerely, good luck to both of you.