"There Is Nothing Wrong With You": For the Single Ladies

[Els]

 

I am done being exhausted and confused. I am done constantly questioning other people's (men's, in the case of the dating world) expectations about what I should be, expectations that I could never live up to! Why should I tie myself in knots over the unrealistic expectations of strangers?

 

To be fair, I think the situations that you mentioned (MUST straighten your hair to attract men! etc) are more accurately cases of commercial advertisement at any cost, than genuine 'requirements' by 'men'. Commerce is a predator, period. It survives on telling anyone it can get away with, that they need Product X to solve all their woes, or they aren't good enough without Product Y, or Product Z will make them so much more attractive. Both men and women perpetrate this cycle. Women by buying into it, and some men by allowing it to shape their ideals of women. But it isn't really the fault of 'men', nor are all men so gullible.

[Eddie Edirol]

Society has made it seem like your life is meainglss unles you get married have kids etc i know plenty of people in that situation who are not happy at all and some who are..

 

This is something that I never got as long as I lived. Do people really care what society says they should do?

Am I in the majority or the minority by not caring what society says to do, or society's perception of me?

Do people in the middle class and below really stress out over keeping up with the Joneses?

[zengirl]

I don't get why this is such an offensive position to some people in this thread.

 

Partly because anything that suggests women suffer from social pressures gets certain posters' hackles up and partly just because the tone of the article is combative, I'd say. I do think seeking to blame men (or women) for your dating problems would be a bad thing to do, but I understand you're not saying that --- you're just saying you're no longer going to feel a slave to external (in this case male, since you date men) expectations and feel "less than" because of it. That is truly not offensive, but some people will miss the main idea and seek the strawmen when they want to be offended. Such is life on the internet.

[AD1980]

This is something that I never got as long as I lived. Do people really care what society says they should do?

Am I in the majority or the minority by not caring what society says to do, or society's perception of me?

Do people in the middle class and below really stress out over keeping up with the Joneses?

 

I personally never gave a **** what society said should be the norm..i think women for whatever reason as a whole might be a little more sensitive to societal expectations and what the media says is the ideal of things for whatever reason..

 

Proably why the marketing industry is usually geared towards women..They take it to heart more..

[Eddie Edirol]

I personally never gave a **** what society said should be the norm..i think women for whatever reason as a whole might be a little more sensitive to societal expectations and what the media says is the ideal of things for whatever reason..

 

Proably why the marketing industry is usually geared towards women..They take it to heart more..

 

Ah yes, the ones who are weak minded that want to please everyone, and not stand up for themselves. Oh well, when theres wolves, there always has to be sheep.

[verhrzn]

To be fair, I think the situations that you mentioned (MUST straighten your hair to attract men! etc) are more accurately cases of commercial advertisement at any cost, than genuine 'requirements' by 'men'. Commerce is a predator, period. It survives on telling anyone it can get away with, that they need Product X to solve all their woes, or they aren't good enough without Product Y, or Product Z will make them so much more attractive. Both men and women perpetrate this cycle. Women by buying into it, and some men by allowing it to shape their ideals of women. But it isn't really the fault of 'men', nor are all men so gullible.

 

Well it's always hard to qualify "some" "most" "all" men. But there ARE studies coming out that the media is strongly shaping men's ideals of beauty and women. More accurately, that young men (so my generation and younger) see all of these gorgeous women everywhere, and start assuming that is the norm, and become depressed that they are stuck among some "abnormal" pocket of ugly/average.

 

While you're right that commerce is predatory, there has to be something to prey ON. I don't think it's a coincidence that advertising targets women's looks... there IS an attitude in the culture of strongly linking femininity <-> what a woman looks like.

 

However, the original article goes beyond just looks. I think there IS an overall attitude of "this is how a woman should be," and the further you deviate from that, the less attractive you are. I think a lot of guys my age buy into those values a lot more than they might buy into the looks pushed by advertising.

[Els]

While you're right that commerce is predatory, there has to be something to prey ON. I don't think it's a coincidence that advertising targets women's looks... there IS an attitude in the culture of strongly linking femininity <-> what a woman looks like.

 

Oh, definitely. Women's looks were always a sensitive point to begin with, and the marketing industry is only choosing its ads based on that. It does target men as well, but in other ways.

 

However, the original article goes beyond just looks. I think there IS an overall attitude of "this is how a woman should be," and the further you deviate from that, the less attractive you are. I think a lot of guys my age buy into those values a lot more than they might buy into the looks pushed by advertising.

 

I'm not sure about 'a lot', but I also agree with that. Sometimes carving yourself a niche is not a bad idea, however. For example, there are many women who want a rich husband, but would it be to a man's best interest to fill that role?

[zengirl]

However, the original article goes beyond just looks. I think there IS an overall attitude of "this is how a woman should be," and the further you deviate from that, the less attractive you are. I think a lot of guys my age buy into those values a lot more than they might buy into the looks pushed by advertising.

 

Sure, though there's certainly an overall attitude of "this is how a man should be" out there too. Both are problems, IMO.

[dasein]

Do people really care what society says they should do?

 

Not really, societal expectations are just a convenient whipping boy for blameshifting when blameshifting to men starts to wear thin. And incidentally, "societal expectations" are code for "men" also . Just a smokescreen contrived in a futile effort of sending the pigeons elsewhere to roost.

 

It's transparent that the person who wrote the article never spent any time whatsoever bowing to "societal expectations" or "what men want in women," just seeking to invoke the dishonest muse heard so much today of "I tried and tried so hard!" when the speaker actually did nothing at all that they didn't want to do in the moment. The whole article is based on the canard that women are miserable out of making massive efforts to comport themselves according to certain external standards (born of male oppression) when one has but to have eyes and ears to know that's a total falsehood.

 

Women today do exactly what they want to do when they want to do it, beholden to no "standards" other than their own caprice and impulse. Then when things don't go perfectly, they can't "have it all," they fabricate "men" and unfair, discriminatory "social standards" as the boogey men (standards they never lifted one finger to comply with:laugh:), and then with a magician's flourish, like the article writer and audience, cast those bad ole standards aside in a show of faux empowerment and liberation (basically the script of every murphy brown episode).

 

How to spot the canard? They will never get specific about "what standards" they are casting off, but rather make vague references to runway models, porn and the fashion industry. Absurdities such as "Men expect women to have a perfect body." Fabrications and outright lies, no underlying substance at all, certainly no rational connection to any real male preferences.

 

In every boob thread here, for example, men will line up expressing all manner of preference, yet only the ones who like "perfect" boobs will be singled out for scorn and comment, the rest? the vast majority? ignored. They aren't interested in reality and truth, only endless confirmation and reconfirmation of their preconceived notions about how they "try so hard" to conform with "what men want."

 

We now have 2 generations of people 18+ who have been raised to believe they are perfect little snowflakes of divine individuality. Asking someone raised that way to accept personal accountability in their lives is like asking them to spin their heads around, a totally foreign concept.

[TheBigQuestion]

Well it's always hard to qualify "some" "most" "all" men. But there ARE studies coming out that the media is strongly shaping men's ideals of beauty and women. More accurately, that young men (so my generation and younger) see all of these gorgeous women everywhere, and start assuming that is the norm, and become depressed that they are stuck among some "abnormal" pocket of ugly/average.

 

While you're right that commerce is predatory, there has to be something to prey ON. I don't think it's a coincidence that advertising targets women's looks... there IS an attitude in the culture of strongly linking femininity <-> what a woman looks like.

 

However, the original article goes beyond just looks. I think there IS an overall attitude of "this is how a woman should be," and the further you deviate from that, the less attractive you are. I think a lot of guys my age buy into those values a lot more than they might buy into the looks pushed by advertising.

 

How depressed are men getting over realizing there are average women in the world when so many men are either happily in relationships with, or married to, "average" women? It's pretty much a mathematical certainty that most men are paired up with average women because most people are "average."

 

Are you implying that admiration of what society deems is a "beautiful" woman is something that only our generation engages in? Or that our generation is flat out more shallow than previous ones and engages in such behavior more than ever before? I don't know if I could agree with that. I've seen photographs of women considered "ideal" from the 20s all the way to the 70s and there has never been a time when so many different body types, personal styles, and ethnicities are celebrated as being beautiful as there are today. Do you really think "SuicideGirls" would have worked 60 years ago?

 

Also, show me a time since the advent of mass media that beautiful people have NOT been used in film, print, advertising, etc. In a way, you're absolutely right about advertising needing people on which to prey. What does that imply about the nature vs. nurture aspect of this though? Obviously, somewhere down the line, human beings must have an embryonic sense of what they find physically attractive.

[verhrzn]

Sure, though there's certainly an overall attitude of "this is how a man should be" out there too. Both are problems, IMO.

 

Sure, but (run away feminist-haters, run away!) since men still control the overall cultural message (men are still the primary creators of advertising, government, business policies, etc.) then it's kind of men creating the "how a man should be" message for OTHER men.

 

In other words, the cultural perpetuates messages to both sexes about who they should be, but "who is a man is" comes from men, and "who is a woman is"... also comes from men.

 

For example, who creates the ad on TV showing men as beer-guzzling, shallow idiots? Given the demographics of the advertising profession, probably men.

 

Who creates the ad on TV showing women with beautiful bouncing hair and a sweet, demure demeanor? Also men.

 

I'm not saying men don't also have an issue with how masculinity is rebranded, and that women don't do their own part of touting the party line about what a woman should be, but men are at least in control of their own cultural expressions.

 

If men wanted to get away from the macho, shallow, idiotic portrayal of masculinity, they have the power already to adjust the messages sent by media. However, if women want to get away from the stereotypical "this is a woman", they either need to increase their power (more women in advertising, more women in Congress, more female CEOs), OR convince the men in charge.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

We now have 2 generations of people 18+ who have been raised to believe they are perfect little snowflakes of divine individuality. Asking someone raised that way to accept personal accountability in their lives is like asking them to spin their heads around, a totally foreign concept.

 

Slightly off topic, but still topical, but let me respond to this really really quickly plzzz kthnx.

 

As someone who is 25, I fall within this category. You're absolutely correct about Special Snowflake syndrome being the norm rather than the exception for people of my generation. We have some strong points and some weak points, and this is definitely our weak point. It's sincerely taken some work on my part to unlearn many aspects of Special Snowflake syndrome (facing a law school curve was certainly one lesson that smacked me in the face!). I've noticed quite a bit of backlash against this mode of upbringing among my peers, the whole "participation trophy" thing, so never fear! Perhaps we will raise our children to be more accountable and to stop trying to bolster their self-esteem at the expense of everything else.

 

Also, dasein, tell the people of your generation to stop giving their 8 year old kids iPads!

[verhrzn]

How depressed are men getting over realizing there are average women in the world when so many men are either happily in relationships with, or married to, "average" women? It's pretty much a mathematical certainty that most men are paired up with average women because most people are "average."

 

Are you implying that admiration of what society deems is a "beautiful" woman is something that only our generation engages in? Or that our generation is flat out more shallow than previous ones and engages in such behavior more than ever before? I don't know if I could agree with that. I've seen photographs of women considered "ideal" from the 20s all the way to the 70s and there has never been a time when so many different body types, personal styles, and ethnicities are celebrated as being beautiful as there are today. Do you really think "SuicideGirls" would have worked 60 years ago?

 

Also, show me a time since the advent of mass media that beautiful people have NOT been used in film, print, advertising, etc. In a way, you're absolutely right about advertising needing people on which to prey. What does that imply about the nature vs. nurture aspect of this though? Obviously, somewhere down the line, human beings must have an embryonic sense of what they find physically attractive.

 

Would I say that our generation is more shallow? Not exactly. But I would say that our generation is influenced, far more than ever, by outside influences. I think our generation no longer accepts "average" in anything, because we are constantly bombarded with messages that we are not enough.

 

I think Tina Fey sums it up best in her book:

 

“Back in my (childhood), you were either blessed with a beautiful body or not. And if you were not, you could just chill out and learn a trade. Now if you’re not ‘hot,’ you are expected to work on it until you are. It's like when you renovate a house and you're legally required to leave just one of the original walls standing. If you don't have a good body, you'd better starve the body you have down to a neutral shape, then bolt on some breast implants, replace your teeth, dye your skin orange, inject your lips, sew on some hair, and call yourself the Playmate of the Year.

 

All Beyonce and JLo have done is add to the laundry list of attributes women must have to qualify as beautiful. Now every girl is expected to have Caucasian blue eyes, full Spanish lips, a classic button nose, hairless Asian skin with a California tan, a Jamaican dance hall ass, long Swedish legs, small Japanese feet, the abs of a lesbian gym owner, the hips of a nine-year-old boy, the arms of Michelle Obama, and doll tits. The person closest to actually achieving this look is Kim Kardashian, who, as we know, was made by Russian scientists to sabotage our athletes.”

 

So to your point that lots of average men are married to average women and happy... there are plenty of explanations.

1) They're actually not happy, but faking it.

2) The guy was desperate, and so choose the 'best he could get,' but secretly pines for something better.

3) The woman is 'average' to the world, but the guy actually DOES see her as beautiful.

 

I like 3rd the best, and I think that does explain a lot of relationships I know. But the women in those relationships already ARE close to gorgeous/pretty... they're just not perfect. If you are NOT blessed with being gorgeous/pretty as a woman, the dating world is a major, major struggle.

 

.... But no guy ever believes me on that point, so I won't bother expanding on that.

[ThaWholigan]

Well it's always hard to qualify "some" "most" "all" men. But there ARE studies coming out that the media is strongly shaping men's ideals of beauty and women. More accurately, that young men (so my generation and younger) see all of these gorgeous women everywhere, and start assuming that is the norm, and become depressed that they are stuck among some "abnormal" pocket of ugly/average.

 

While you're right that commerce is predatory, there has to be something to prey ON. I don't think it's a coincidence that advertising targets women's looks... there IS an attitude in the culture of strongly linking femininity <-> what a woman looks like.

 

However, the original article goes beyond just looks. I think there IS an overall attitude of "this is how a woman should be," and the further you deviate from that, the less attractive you are. I think a lot of guys my age buy into those values a lot more than they might buy into the looks pushed by advertising.

 

Not really, societal expectations are just a convenient whipping boy for blameshifting when blameshifting to men starts to wear thin. And incidentally, "societal expectations" are code for "men" also . Just a smokescreen contrived in a futile effort of sending the pigeons elsewhere to roost.

 

It's transparent that the person who wrote the article never spent any time whatsoever bowing to "societal expectations" or "what men want in women," just seeking to invoke the dishonest muse heard so much today of "I tried and tried so hard!" when the speaker actually did nothing at all that they didn't want to do in the moment. The whole article is based on the canard that women are miserable out of making massive efforts to comport themselves according to certain external standards (born of male oppression) when one has but to have eyes and ears to know that's a total falsehood.

 

Women today do exactly what they want to do when they want to do it, beholden to no "standards" other than their own caprice and impulse. Then when things don't go perfectly, they can't "have it all," they fabricate "men" and unfair, discriminatory "social standards" as the boogey men (standards they never lifted one finger to comply with:laugh:), and then with a magician's flourish, like the article writer and audience, cast those bad ole standards aside in a show of faux empowerment and liberation (basically the script of every murphy brown episode).

 

How to spot the canard? They will never get specific about "what standards" they are casting off, but rather make vague references to runway models, porn and the fashion industry. Absurdities such as "Men expect women to have a perfect body." Fabrications and outright lies, no underlying substance at all, certainly no rational connection to any real male preferences.

 

In every boob thread here, for example, men will line up expressing all manner of preference, yet only the ones who like "perfect" boobs will be singled out for scorn and comment, the rest? the vast majority? ignored. They aren't interested in reality and truth, only endless confirmation and reconfirmation of their preconceived notions about how they "try so hard" to conform with "what men want."

 

We now have 2 generations of people 18+ who have been raised to believe they are perfect little snowflakes of divine individuality. Asking someone raised that way to accept personal accountability in their lives is like asking them to spin their heads around, a totally foreign concept.

 

I think both these posts, while extreme, are laced with a lot of truths in my opinion. What I have observed about this particular issue is that there are two opposing views from opposite sides of the spectrum, both flinging blame at the other, however there are truths to each side if there were more co-operative forces that were involved.

 

The way I understand it, there are a certain set of standards that are pushed when it comes to attractiveness (the eurocentric, long hair and thin frame with not a hint of cellulite etc), however I do not think they hold that much sway, nor do I think it's the doing of men in particular. Men of all kinds find lots of different things attractive, as specified in the ethnicity thread. It's a fallacy that men only want one kind of girl, and I've been at pains to tell people on the forum, only to have such a message ignored.

 

The attitude of how a woman should be is an odd one, it's not something that I've seen so far from men, and seems to be dictated by their mothers whom have raised them mostly, in my observations.

 

---------------------

 

Dasein's posts rings true with me in terms of what I've observed on the internet and in only a few women in real life. Men do not expect women to be perfect. They may call bad behavior when they see it, but never have I seen young men of my age dictate how a woman should behave. I have seen some women however, dictate how a man should behave, and when those men oblige, it has been thrown back in their faces. I'm lucky enough to not need to adhere or be offended, but it's something I've seen.

 

When some men express a like about a woman's body, it's seen as objectifying or they jump on it as if he has seriously disrespected them, even if he hasn't. This is something I've seen on this forum more than any other. I understand some of the other concerns, and I post accordingly, but generally when I see that in some of the threads, I just stay out of them, as it will go nowhere fast.

[dasein]

It's totally on topic, I mean the thread title is "There is Nothing Wrong With You," and talking about how children and the young are raised today in only self-affirming ways as a counter to the posted article is fair game. But this SNL skit says it better than I can:

 

 

Fair point on the buying kids IPADs, parents of the last two generations are the primary seat of responsibility for the types of attitudes expressed in the linked article.

[ThaWholigan]

 

.... But no guy ever believes me on that point, so I won't bother expanding on that.

 

Do you know what? I'm gonna completely level with you.

 

I don't believe you. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm honestly telling you that I don't believe you. I see enough unattractive women in relationships with guys of varying levels of attractiveness to come to this conclusion. I still wonder how you came to the conclusion that your looks are your downfall, because there are women far less attractive than you who are in relationships. There is no steadfast universal ideal when it comes to beauty. The article seems to be trying to allude to that, so kudos for taking a message from it.

 

EDIT: I'm watching a show at the moment called 2 broke girls, there is an actress in the show who plays Max. I don't know the actresses name (she was in 40 year old virgin), but I think she's unbelievably hot but not in a conventional hollywood way. Ok, it helps that her boobs are enormous, but honestly, she's far from the norm. That excerpt from Tina Fey's book is ridiculous. In Hollywood, maybe that's the norm, but Hollywood doesn't = the real world.

Edited April 26, 2012 by ThaWholigan

[TheBigQuestion]

Would I say that our generation is more shallow? Not exactly. But I would say that our generation is influenced, far more than ever, by outside influences. I think our generation no longer accepts "average" in anything, because we are constantly bombarded with messages that we are not enough.

 

I think Tina Fey sums it up best in her book:

 

 

 

So to your point that lots of average men are married to average women and happy... there are plenty of explanations.

1) They're actually not happy, but faking it.

2) The guy was desperate, and so choose the 'best he could get,' but secretly pines for something better.

3) The woman is 'average' to the world, but the guy actually DOES see her as beautiful.

 

I like 3rd the best, and I think that does explain a lot of relationships I know. But the women in those relationships already ARE close to gorgeous/pretty... they're just not perfect. If you are NOT blessed with being gorgeous/pretty as a woman, the dating world is a major, major struggle.

 

.... But no guy ever believes me on that point, so I won't bother expanding on that.

 

I'm disappointed that Tina Fey would write something like that. I always figured she was too smart to play the victimization game, but I guess that helps sell books.

 

Seriously though, who on Earth actually has all that as an expectation? Virtually no one in Hollywood has all or even most of those attributes, and you'll find that most men would be attracted to women who have maybe one or two of them. I assume that passage was in Fey's book to generate some laughs, because there isn't a hint of either logical reasoning or truthful conclusion in any of it. It also doesn't really respond or "sum up" to much of anything that I initially posted.

 

You're right that the 3rd explanation is the most common one. The rest of your post is your usual "average IS pretty and I'm NOT pretty so I'm NOT even average" nonsense and responding to it will just lead to a retread of your entire existence on LS, so I won't broach it further.

[verhrzn]

I'm disappointed that Tina Fey would write something like that. I always figured she was too smart to play the victimization game, but I guess that helps sell books.

 

Seriously though, who on Earth actually has all that as an expectation? Virtually no one in Hollywood has all or even most of those attributes, and you'll find that most men would be attracted to women who have maybe one or two of them. I assume that passage was in Fey's book to generate some laughs, because there isn't a hint of either logical reasoning or truthful conclusion in any of it. It also doesn't really respond or "sum up" to much of anything that I initially posted.

 

On the contrary, it's what most of my exes and friends consider the perfect woman. (Swap out the blonde hair for red.)

 

Maybe this all seems so alien to you because you have never been a woman and attempted to date men. The comments on the original article are filled with stories of guys saying the most ridiculous things to women about their bodies. Even my friends in happy relationships have had their guys say INCREDIBLY bone-headed, hurtful things about their bodies... my friends just try to not let it get them down, but it happens, a lot more than men on this forum seem willing to admit.

[zengirl]

They will never get specific about "what standards" they are casting off, but rather make vague references to runway models, porn and the fashion industry. Absurdities such as "Men expect women to have a perfect body." Fabrications and outright lies, no underlying substance at all, certainly no rational connection to any real male preferences.

 

The author of the article suggested, as you did, that men do not actually expect women to have a perfect body. It also suggested that men were attracted to agency, confidence, and personhood. Would you suggest those are not real male preferences?

 

How depressed are men getting over realizing there are average women in the world when so many men are either happily in relationships with, or married to, "average" women? It's pretty much a mathematical certainty that most men are paired up with average women because most people are "average."

 

The article also basically said this!

 

I find it so funny that people offended by the article are saying the same things it says.

 

Sure, but (run away feminist-haters, run away!) since men still control the overall cultural message (men are still the primary creators of advertising, government, business policies, etc.) then it's kind of men creating the "how a man should be" message for OTHER men.

 

So? Much of the women stuff is a woman creating 'how a woman should be' message for other women. Do you think there are that many men on the editorial staff of Cosmo? I mean, as I see it, men and women both create cultural messages of expectations for men and women. Men are the worst at creating messages to limit 'masculinity' and women are the worst at creating messages to limit 'femininity' these days (this wasn't always true -- back in the day, men really DID control the messages, but that's just not true now).

 

For example, who creates the ad on TV showing men as beer-guzzling, shallow idiots? Given the demographics of the advertising profession, probably men.

 

Does it matter? Personally, I don't care if it's a woman who wants to throw me into some sexist role or a man -- either of them gets my wrath equally.

 

At any rate, there are plenty of women in advertising. It's a boy's club type atmosphere for sure (or my experience was) so I would say it's patriarchal in many ways, but don't confuse patriarchal with being "All men doing it." Women can also be socialized to support patriarchal ideas and many have done so robustly throughout history, just as many men have realized they were flawed.

 

As to who's in control of the cultural expressions, I'd say at least women have a more varied set of people in control TBH. The men in control of the word "masculine" these days -- those who throw around what it is to be a man -- seem a small subset of actual men in the world who represent a narrow range of masculinity, as I've seen it.

 

So to your point that lots of average men are married to average women and happy... there are plenty of explanations.

1) They're actually not happy, but faking it.

2) The guy was desperate, and so choose the 'best he could get,' but secretly pines for something better.

3) The woman is 'average' to the world, but the guy actually DOES see her as beautiful.

 

I like 3rd the best, and I think that does explain a lot of relationships I know.

 

I think it's almost always the 3rd, V. Honestly.

[zengirl]

EDIT: I'm watching a show at the moment called 2 broke girls, there is an actress in the show who plays Max. I don't know the actresses name (she was in 40 year old virgin), but I think she's unbelievably hot but not in a conventional hollywood way. Ok, it helps that her boobs are enormous, but honestly, she's far from the norm. That excerpt from Tina Fey's book is ridiculous. In Hollywood, maybe that's the norm, but Hollywood doesn't = the real world.

 

Pointing out that you find a very attractive actress who plays "hollywood ugly" (I'm not even sure her character is supposed to be HU on that show) but is actually extremely hot in an objective, "Yes, she's hot" way does not really help the point that men like average women. I think men DO like average women just fine, honestly, but that actress is not 'average' looking.

[Dafa]

Not really, societal expectations are just a convenient whipping boy for blameshifting when blameshifting to men starts to wear thin. And incidentally, "societal expectations" are code for "men" also . Just a smokescreen contrived in a futile effort of sending the pigeons elsewhere to roost.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you said on the quoted post, but as for this the first paragraph... In it, you offer an answer to a very general question that is very specific to this topic. And in fact in a way you are right when you say that people use the "society expectations" argument to shift blame.

Still, my direct answer to the question you responded to is: Yes, most people do care, and some much more than others. Saying adamantly and intransigently state "i do not care what society says", tends to strike me as somewhat "autistic"... Being completely impervious to societal norms? Come on...

The people who state that they don't care much are, most of the times, people who are already relatively well adjusted and/or have a sufficiently secure and robust personality to not care. The problem is that a significant portion of people are permeable to these influences and that is not (entirely) their fault, it is just the way they were made.

 

 

In other words, the cultural perpetuates messages to both sexes about who they should be, but "who is a man is" comes from men, and "who is a woman is"... also comes from men.

 

I completely disagree when you say that men are still in control of the "overall cultural message", i can't help but view this post of yours as extremely skewed. This was arguably true 20-30 years ago, yes, but not nowadays. Perhaps my view is also skewed but i see it completely the other way around. Especially when it comes to men-women interactions. From my (male) point of view, the women tends to have the "control" over the interaction. She decides if she wants or not, when she wants it and how. All men have left is senselessly throw their hooks around hoping a given woman decides to bite. This is, of course an over-simplification. A rare batch of men (very handsome ones) are just singularities.

 

Also, in a more general point of view, looking at college student statistics is quite eloquent. A (vast) majority are women, even in courses that are more traditionally "male" (e.g. some types of engineering). A few decades ago men were dominant but women started gaining momentum. However, they gained so much momentum that the "overshoot" will be quite big, i.e., in a few decades we risk having an imbalance towards women. If this is good or bad, i don't know.

 

As for your particular case: Apparently you do a lot of dating, right? But you still can't seem to get "lucky"? If i may ask, have you thought about why? Case by case, i mean. Doing alot of dating at least allows statistical patterns to emerge... Try to identify them. Perhaps you are the one who is expecting too much...

I really don't believe you are that ugly...

 

Also, you think sarcasm is a virtue? And BJ? Does it mean what i think it means?

Regardless, i'm sure you also have a lot more qualities than that, you are just being sarcastic about it.

More to be said later!

[Stephanie]

This thread can get off topic quickly and I don't want to have to close it. Let's keep this on topic. While debate is perfectly acceptable, please remember civility and respect in all responses you give.

 

Thanks

[ThaWholigan]

Pointing out that you find a very attractive actress who plays "hollywood ugly" (I'm not even sure her character is supposed to be HU on that show) but is actually extremely hot in an objective, "Yes, she's hot" way does not really help the point that men like average women. I think men DO like average women just fine, honestly, but that actress is not 'average' looking.

Point taken. The point I didn't make is that it's not often I find typical hollywood girls attractive myself.

[dasein]

The author of the article suggested, as you did, that men do not actually expect women to have a perfect body. It also suggested that men were attracted to agency, confidence, and personhood. Would you suggest those are not real male preferences?

 

Many media sources and posts here on LS repeat the "men expect a woman to have a perfect body" fabrication in its various forms (sometimes it's "stick thin" that men expect), good for the article writer in not repeating it, but that does not mean it isn't often repeated.

 

Ah, "agency" the therapy word du jour. Define it please, in an objective way we can all agree on. Do the same for "personhood" and "confidence." I have no idea whether those are real male preferences or not because they are so -vague-, which was part of my point.

 

Preferences based on specific physical attributes and specific behaviors are purposefully avoided when women go off on the "expectations of men and society" tirade because the absurdity of the claim would become immediately apparent if they were expressed specifically, "Men all want women with a 20" waist:laugh:." "Too easy to blow those out of the water, so let's stay vague to perpetuate the illusion of bad ole oppressive, victimizing, patriarchal standards."

 

Women who rely on the "societal standard/male preference" blameshift excuse, 1. Never did -anything- to comport with any such standards to begin with, merely what they wanted to do in the moment. 2. Can't accept any accountability for their own actions and situations, so 3. Fabricate these standards like scapegoats, so they can 4. Go merrily on their way doing exactly what they wanted to do to begin with, with the scapegoat hanging out in the yard eating the grass just waiting to "shoulder the blame" and provide convenient "victim status" when everything princess wants in life doesn't effortlessly fall in her lap.

 

Ladies, the "societal standards/male preference/doing it all for men" excuse is starting to wear micron thin, having been repeated so much over the last 40 years. Find a new crutch, this one's played out. Or just own your behavior and choices and the consequences of them.

 

And since you bring up the personhood point, the writer makes the statement that men prefer to date persons. What are the options for male preference here? holograms? ghosts? comic book characters? What does it even mean to say that men prefer to date "persons?" Article is so bad, I stuck to the rational parts such as the clear statement "men are lying to you." That I can understand.

[TheBigQuestion]

 

 

 

The article also basically said this!

 

I find it so funny that people offended by the article are saying the same things it says.

 

 

 

 

By this point, I'm responding directly to V, not commenting on the merits of the original article. To be fair, I DID point out that some of the article's conclusions are correct. I merely took some issue with its "BLAME SOCIETY!!!" undertone.