"There Is Nothing Wrong With You": For the Single Ladies

[mesmerized]

On the contrary, it's what most of my exes and friends consider the perfect woman. (Swap out the blonde hair for red.)

 

Maybe this all seems so alien to you because you have never been a woman and attempted to date men. The comments on the original article are filled with stories of guys saying the most ridiculous things to women about their bodies. Even my friends in happy relationships have had their guys say INCREDIBLY bone-headed, hurtful things about their bodies... my friends just try to not let it get them down, but it happens, a lot more than men on this forum seem willing to admit.

 

If a guy says a hurtful thing about my body, he is outta there! It has actually never happened other than in forms of jokes from men who later even asked me out. Most guys have this common sense not to say hurtful things to the face of their girlfriend even though they all might think it lol

[verhrzn]

If a guy says a hurtful thing about my body, he is outta there! It has actually never happened other than in forms of jokes from men who later even asked me out. Most guys have this common sense not to say hurtful things to the face of their girlfriend even though they all might think it lol

 

Except it isn't always boyfriends. I've had strangers say awful things to me. Men yelling things down the street. Men making awful comments just because I walk past their table.

 

One woman in the comments talked about how a man messaged her on a site, JUST to tell her she was too fat to date, and how dare she be online, etc.

 

And THAT'S where the angry tone and the "screw it!" attitude in the article comes in. That lots of women, women like me, are tired of beating themselves up because of what some guy, stranger or otherwise, told them about THEIR bodies.

[dasein]

Still, my direct answer to the question you responded to is: Yes, most people do care, and some much more than others. Saying adamantly and intransigently state "i do not care what society says", tends to strike me as somewhat "autistic"... Being completely impervious to societal norms? Come on...

 

This is a fair point. We all do care to an extent what society thinks, and certainly what the desired gender thinks. But those cares are actually expressed and experienced more in what the people in our lives think rather than an impersonal "society" or "men," we care what Ben or Betty thinks. That's how we experience social and sexual expectations, individually. There are of course basics like "wear clothes" not claiming otherwise.

[zengirl]

Point taken. The point I didn't make is that it's not often I find typical hollywood girls attractive myself.

 

Fair enough. I really do think most men find a range of women beautiful (and not always the same range as the other men around them -- this is true of men as well as women) and obviously many so-called average people find their partners hot, date, marry, and have sexy times with them, etc!

 

Many media sources and posts here on LS repeat the "men expect a woman to have a perfect body" fabrication in its various forms (sometimes it's "stick thin" that men expect), good for the article writer in not repeating it, but that does not mean it isn't often repeated.

 

Well, sure, but the article was, in part, about how it is often repeated and how it is false. So raising that objection to this article makes no sense is all. I'm not disagreeing that it's absurd to put the stringent beauty rules of the fashion industry or Hollywood on the average guy or that it's absolutely true that most guys don't expect that level of beauty at all!

 

I think men can range in how much 'beauty maintenance' they expect from a woman, but that standard is often set by what they see in the women around them. I do think 'beauty maintenance' (the work we're expected to do to be attractive if we don't have it naturally) standards have gotten more strict, but they've gotten more strict for men, too, not just women.

 

Ah, "agency" the therapy word du jour. Define it please, in an objective way we can all agree on. Do the same for "personhood" and "confidence." I have no idea whether those are real male preferences or not because they are so -vague-, which was part of my point.

 

I could define each of the words and will if you like, but let's talk about the whole of that paragraph for a moment: I take it to mean that men prefer a woman who is self-assured, does not require excessive external validation, knows what she wants and has the ability to go after it - abilities she may cultivate and work for, etc, acts like a real person (vs. pretending she is someone else), and has basic self-esteem.

 

Now, granted, I am not saying self-esteem or agency or being a person is, in itself, enough to catch every man or even any man (or woman, etc). I'm merely saying I think that most normal people want someone who has those kinds of qualities, and that most people who have healthy self-esteem, a sense of agency, and can act like a person, rather than some 80% of a magazine cut-out, will find a healthy relationship with a partner who thinks she/he is a knockout.

 

Women want the same from a man, in most cases, which is where Hokie's point that gender-pronouns could be reversed applies.

 

Ladies, the "societal standards/male preference/doing it all for men" excuse is starting to wear micron thin, having been repeated so much over the last 40 years. Find a new crutch, this one's played out. Or just own your behavior and choices and the consequences of them.

 

How is not having a slim waist a behavior? I just feel like you're conflating and mixing too many points. The main idea of the article was: "F societal standards, that's not what men want anyway, and you're not going to get anywhere if you try to live up to some ideal instead of being a person." I'm not sure where the rant about society and feminism actually comes in. Yes, the person who wrote that article is a woman, a feminist, and writes for women from a woman's POV, but the article isn't really suggesting anything 'bad' about men or about 'blaming' men --- it's about taking responsibility for your reactions to and interactions with societal expectations.

 

And since you bring up the personhood point, the writer makes the statement that men prefer to date persons.

 

Right. A man would rather date a woman who thinks of herself as a person -- a full person with flaws and all -- than someone who thinks of herself as 80% finished on the way to meeting her fitness ideal.

[zengirl]

By this point, I'm responding directly to V, not commenting on the merits of the original article. To be fair, I DID point out that some of the article's conclusions are correct. I merely took some issue with its "BLAME SOCIETY!!!" undertone.

 

Gotcha, TBQ. I don't love the angry tone myself, but I don't really think it's saying blame society so much as, "Stop letting society control you" and making the person complicit in their interactions with societal expectations. Yes, we do have a personal responsibility in doing so -- absolutely! That's actually what I liked best about the article.

 

Re: personal responsibility

 

I'm 27, and I find most people I know my age (unlike your experience) have no issues with personal responsibility. Most of the people I hire are still in college (because I hire PT educational aids) and they seem to have personal responsibility as well. The former is likely because of who I socialize with, and the latter is likely because of the job and the people in the field I hire for. But I really don't think it's the majority of either generation that doesn't understand personal responsibility. Certainly, I would couch it in less austere terms than many Boomers, and I do think everyone is an individual --- but I don't see how being an individual with a unique perspective prevents one from taking personal responsibility. In fact, I'd say it makes it even MORE important to take ownership of your perspective, your life, and your responsibility in this world.

[mesmerized]

Except it isn't always boyfriends. I've had strangers say awful things to me. Men yelling things down the street. Men making awful comments just because I walk past their table.

 

One woman in the comments talked about how a man messaged her on a site, JUST to tell her she was too fat to date, and how dare she be online, etc.

 

And THAT'S where the angry tone and the "screw it!" attitude in the article comes in. That lots of women, women like me, are tired of beating themselves up because of what some guy, stranger or otherwise, told them about THEIR bodies.

 

Ive had men messaging me hurtful things too, but I didn't take them seriously. They're just bitter, why else would a guy go out of his way to do such a thing? I'm sorry that these things happened to you though I can't really relate all that much.

[verhrzn]

Ive had men messaging me hurtful things too, but I didn't take them seriously. They're just bitter, why else would a guy go out of his way to do such a thing? I'm sorry that these things happened to you though I can't really relate all that much.

 

It isn't necessary to relate, just to acknowledge that the world is full of experiences.

 

What really gets to me is posters who constantly say that me, or the ladies commenting on the article, are "lying" or "exaggerating." It isn't enough to just say "Hmm I've never experienced that before," but to actually deny other people's experiences.

 

I was excited to share this article, because I've often felt so degraded and ashamed by the men I encounter in my life, and the expectations of women that come through the media. I wanted to share the "Be yourself, who cares if they like it" attitude.

 

But it was a mistake to share this with LS. Yet again, I'm just beaten down, even when I'm trying to be positive. Yet more finger-wagging about how men have it worse, and how I don't take "personal responsibility." For what?? How the heck am I supposed to take personal responsibility for men's expectations of what I should be??

[ThaWholigan]

Ive had men messaging me hurtful things too, but I didn't take them seriously. They're just bitter, why else would a guy go out of his way to do such a thing? I'm sorry that these things happened to you though I can't really relate all that much.

I know a lot of girls who used POF and got some pretty ****ed up messages from guys. Those guys are very few though.

[Content]

Vehrzn isnt having trouble attracting Men because of her looks she has trouble attracting Men because she has very little respect for Men and thinks so little of us that were all cookie cutter shallow horndgos who just want to to move on to the next hottest thing

 

The ironic part of the article you posted is that you took the wrong part of it as a lesson,the part that unattractive women are in happy relationships with Men who love them for who they are should be your theme instead you took it as your fine the way you are and its Mens standards thats the problem not you

 

No its YOU, quite frankly your attitude stinks and your negiative outlook on Men and life is not something attratcive to Men and finding a partner

[verhrzn]

Vehrzn isnt having trouble attracting Men because of her looks she has trouble attracting Men because she has very little respect for Men and thinks so little of us that were all cookie cutter shallow horndgos who just want to to move on to the next hottest thing

 

The ironic part of the article you posted is that you took the wrong part of it as a lesson,the part that unattractive women are in happy relationships with Men who love them for who they are should be your theme instead you took it as your fine the way you are and its Mens standards thats the problem not you

 

No its YOU, quite frankly your attitude stinks and your negiative outlook on Men and life is not something attratcive to Men and finding a partner

 

Except my attitude didn't materialize out of thin air.

 

I am having less and less respect for men because of how I've been treating in the past. Single men's behavior has CREATED my lack of respect for them. Men's behavior has CREATED my perception of them.

 

And I know plenty of men and women who openly saw dismissive and hurtful things about the opposite sex, and yet still have relationships. By your logic, that unattractive women are in relationships therefore it can't be my looks that are the problem, opposite-gender-hating, unconfident people are in relationships, so it can't be my "man-hating" and unconfident attitude either.

[zengirl]

It isn't necessary to relate, just to acknowledge that the world is full of experiences.

 

What really gets to me is posters who constantly say that me, or the ladies commenting on the article, are "lying" or "exaggerating." It isn't enough to just say "Hmm I've never experienced that before," but to actually deny other people's experiences.

 

Now, this is a good point. But I will tell you the same thing when you say "Men do X" based on only such set experiences that I tell male posters who say "Women do X": You're overgeneralizing and incorrect, and thus attempting to deny the experiences of everyone else who doesn't fit that pattern.

 

Instead, we need to share our experiences as OUR EXPERIENCES, which should be acknowledged and not denied, but should not be confused with the way every person of an entire gender behaves or acts or forced into generalizations that will deny the experiences, POVs, and thoughts of others. That's where cookie-cutter roles and stereotypes come in and that's no good for any of us.

 

However, the notion of people's experiences being valued in this way is a good insight. That involves getting personal, though, and specific. I'm not sure what the 'comments' of the article said, so I'm not sure if the women you speak of did so or if they generalized.

 

I was excited to share this article, because I've often felt so degraded and ashamed by the men I encounter in my life, and the expectations of women that come through the media. I wanted to share the "Be yourself, who cares if they like it" attitude.

 

That's a better attitude than where you were for sure. I'm glad it made you feel that way! Personally, I'd chop the end off because the 'who cares' sounds angry, but anger can be a good start to a breakthrough when you've been in a despondent place.

 

For me, it'd be simply "Be yourself" or "Be yourself and live for your standards." Yes, caring too much about societal expectations is a terrible way to live. So is anger at the past, so keep moving along with this evolution and get empowered AND happy.

[xxoo]

Except my attitude didn't materialize out of thin air.

 

I am having less and less respect for men because of how I've been treating in the past. Single men's behavior has CREATED my lack of respect for them. Men's behavior has CREATED my perception of them.

 

How much came from your mother?

[mesmerized]

It isn't necessary to relate, just to acknowledge that the world is full of experiences.

 

What really gets to me is posters who constantly say that me, or the ladies commenting on the article, are "lying" or "exaggerating." It isn't enough to just say "Hmm I've never experienced that before," but to actually deny other people's experiences.

 

I was excited to share this article, because I've often felt so degraded and ashamed by the men I encounter in my life, and the expectations of women that come through the media. I wanted to share the "Be yourself, who cares if they like it" attitude.

 

But it was a mistake to share this with LS. Yet again, I'm just beaten down, even when I'm trying to be positive. Yet more finger-wagging about how men have it worse, and how I don't take "personal responsibility." For what?? How the heck am I supposed to take personal responsibility for men's expectations of what I should be??

 

Oh come on V, you're a smart girl! Of course you shouldn't take personal responsibility for other people's expectations if you don't believe in them yourself. There are some posters on this forum that just love the gender war, ignore their comments.

 

I liked the article except the fact that I don't think people should just be who they are and not try to improve. We should try to be as best as we can in any case, not in a superficial way however. Hair extension doesn't make us better, being fit and educated does. Keep doing what you think is the best for you according to YOUR standards not some idiot's who is trying to make money out of making you believe in his standards. And as long as you are doing your best, you can be confident and not give a rat's ass what other people think.

[TheBigQuestion]

It isn't necessary to relate, just to acknowledge that the world is full of experiences.

 

What really gets to me is posters who constantly say that me, or the ladies commenting on the article, are "lying" or "exaggerating." It isn't enough to just say "Hmm I've never experienced that before," but to actually deny other people's experiences.

 

I was excited to share this article, because I've often felt so degraded and ashamed by the men I encounter in my life, and the expectations of women that come through the media. I wanted to share the "Be yourself, who cares if they like it" attitude.

 

But it was a mistake to share this with LS. Yet again, I'm just beaten down, even when I'm trying to be positive. Yet more finger-wagging about how men have it worse, and how I don't take "personal responsibility." For what?? How the heck am I supposed to take personal responsibility for men's expectations of what I should be??

 

You're not being beaten down. You just happened to post an article that is poorly written and uses bad reasoning. Like Richard Nixon, it leaves a very mixed legacy behind. Like I said before, it's cool that you're realizing the whole "Be yourself" thing, but it's not anything you haven't heard HERE, from many posters, already.

[verhrzn]

How much came from your mother?

 

My mother gave me ideas about myself, but men gave me ideas about myself in regards to dating. I think a lot more of my bitterness about men/romance/dating comes from men and society, not my mother. (I could also argue that the ideas she got about HERSELF come from society. She certainly didn't inherit them... my grandmother walks around thinking she is hot freaking stuff.)

 

But this is a forum filled with bitter men and married women, so I guess I shouldn't be shocked that no one can relate to the single woman's experiences.

 

Now I'm just back to "can't ever do anything right, back to being called a liar/delusional, and how men have it so much harder so how dare I complain." So much for sharing...

[zengirl]

Now I'm just back to "can't ever do anything right, back to being called a liar/delusional, and how men have it so much harder so how dare I complain." So much for sharing...

 

Well, if a few contrary posts knocked you back there, you didn't really get the message of the article, did you? Why are you responsible for LS's expectations?

[verhrzn]

Well, if a few contrary posts knocked you back there, you didn't really get the message of the article, did you? Why are you responsible for LS's expectations?

 

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

I think a lot of posters on this forum won't be satisfied until I've killed myself. One less fattie in the world, anyway.

[zengirl]

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

But wasn't the whole point that you were going to be yourself and who cares what they think? So what do you care if they think you're wrong? And many people have acknowledged your attempt to improve. Hell, you even got an acknowledgement from TBQ on that one, and he's not one to give idle praise.

[verhrzn]

But wasn't the whole point that you were going to be yourself and who cares what they think? So what do you care if they think you're wrong?

 

Yeah, well, then I got a cascading thread of all the ways that single women ARE damaged, and how I'm just kidding myself, and how single women are just b*tches and delusional and men totally have it worse...

 

Seems there is no right approach, except to go back to giving up on life.

[ThaWholigan]

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

I think a lot of posters on this forum won't be satisfied until I've killed myself. One less fattie in the world, anyway.

Please stop saying stuff like that, it's a gross exaggeration and smacks of victimhood. Nobody has ever expressed any view about you even close to wanting you to kill yourself or anything of the sort.

 

I was initially happy that you gleaned something positive from the article, why has what anyone else has said about it spoiled it for you?

[mesmerized]

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

I think a lot of posters on this forum won't be satisfied until I've killed myself. One less fattie in the world, anyway.

 

You're being way too dramatic.

[january2011]

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

I think a lot of posters on this forum won't be satisfied until I've killed myself. One less fattie in the world, anyway.

 

No! I'm going to reiterate the mesage in the OP:

 

Verhrzn - There is nothing wrong with you.

 

Verhrzn - There is nothing wrong with you.

 

Verhrzn - There is nothing wrong with you.

 

Verhrzn - There is nothingwrong with you.

 

Verhrzn - There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. You.

[zengirl]

Yeah, well, then I got a cascading thread of all the ways that single women ARE damaged, and how I'm just kidding myself, and how single women are just b*tches and delusional and men totally have it worse...

 

Seems there is no right approach, except to go back to giving up on life.

 

Well, just because someone says that (and it was the VAST minority saying that btw) doesn't mean they're right. It's silly to expect a thread like this not to cause a little controversy. I knew it was from Jezebel when you didn't post the link, and I knew why you didn't post the link. . . and there are some people on LS who live to harp on that stuff. Whatevs. What do you care what they think? Isn't that the whole point?

 

I like that you saw a spark of an attitude change, but you have to really commit to it. No one is going to do that for you. Certainly not LS.

 

Anyway, most single women are not Bs or delusional and I don't think an argument about who has it 'worse' makes any sense. For starters, first, we'd have to come up with a rubric for worseness, and that just doesn't even sound fun. . . and you know we'd never agree on what 'worse' even meant since it's a relative term. Oh, geez, no thank you. I say Be yourself and F trying to figure out who has it worse.

[verhrzn]

Please stop saying stuff like that, it's a gross exaggeration and smacks of victimhood. Nobody has ever expressed any view about you even close to wanting you to kill yourself or anything of the sort.

 

I was initially happy that you gleaned something positive from the article, why has what anyone else has said about it spoiled it for you?

 

Yeah, yeah, victim hood, personal responsibility, blah blah. Reminds me of the bullies in high school who would mock me mercilessly until I cracked, and then turn around and say I was being a "victim" because "no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

 

No, no one (lately) has told me to kill myself. But the constant attitude... that I'm broken because I'm single, that single women are all "delusional," that fat women are worthless, that older women are worn out, that it's MY fault men don't find me attractive, regardless of what I do... really drags me down. What, exactly, are the posters who constantly sell this stuff expecting to happen? For me to magically get hotter and conform to all of their wishes? Well that ain't gonna happen, so the only alternative is to continue taking their abuse.

 

Oh, or "not care." Except it's clear from posting this that THAT attitude is not allowed, which is why I had to be unilaterally smacked down with endless examples of how, nope, single women totally are to blame.

 

Like I said in an older post, how exactly is it MY fault that guys don't like me? Why do I need to take "personal responsibility" for OTHER people's expectations of me?

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah, yeah, victim hood, personal responsibility, blah blah. Reminds me of the bullies in high school who would mock me mercilessly until I cracked, and then turn around and say I was being a "victim" because "no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

 

No, no one (lately) has told me to kill myself. But the constant attitude... that I'm broken because I'm single, that single women are all "delusional," that fat women are worthless, that older women are worn out, that it's MY fault men don't find me attractive, regardless of what I do... really drags me down. What, exactly, are the posters who constantly sell this stuff expecting to happen? For me to magically get hotter and conform to all of their wishes? Well that ain't gonna happen, so the only alternative is to continue taking their abuse.

 

Oh, or "not care." Except it's clear from posting this that THAT attitude is not allowed, which is why I had to be unilaterally smacked down with endless examples of how, nope, single women totally are to blame.

 

Like I said in an older post, how exactly is it MY fault that guys don't like me? Why do I need to take "personal responsibility" for OTHER people's expectations of me?

What posters are you talking about? PM me if necessary, because I'm confused, everybody has been trying to help you and make you see that you are much more than you seem to think of yourself.