Just been burned...

[trader]

This isn't a neutral statement based on what you've previously posted. Your wife cheated at least twice this latest go round based on your first post, and you're separated. You have a history of a prior separation which might indicate prior cheating that you don't have disclosure on. You stated your wife has emotional problems and you had several years during which issues with your adult daughter seriously impacted your marriage.

 

I am not neutral. I am an optimistic going forward. I freely admit that.

 

Perhaps for say the first half of the relationship it was great but it sounds like over the latter half of the relationship, say the past ten years or so, things haven't been very good at all most of the time..

The daughter moved in with us, just as the wife was finishing her second degree. School wasn't fun, but it did not compare to the hell the D put us through. That was four years ago, now.

 

This would fit in with what you are saying and what happens in other relationships. It's not all of a sudden, but a deterioration that takes a number of years. .

 

Yea

 

If you look at your wife's affairs as a symptom as well as a cause of a deteriorating marriage, in which many other issues are at play, then you'd also realize that what's taken years to tear down can't be re-built by a simple act of will: "I forgive you.".

I know. I understand this. Forgiving only makes the process possible. As I have said, bitterness or resentment does not help. Maybe what I mean by forgiveness is different than your concept. "Words do not covey meaning they conjur meaning?"

 

"I forgive you" might be fine as a philosophical gesture but how does your "I forgive you" address whatever issues caused your wife to cheat in the first place, or to wish to be separated from you? You see--it doesn't. That's why "I forgive you" so easily given is called "rug sweeping" by a lot of people..

 

Thanks for the translation I was wondering what that term meant. Forgiveness=rug sweeping. I don't agree, but I do think that forgetting=rug sweeping. At least, that is how I look at it.

 

 

 

Of course you do. If you didn't like each other you never would have gotten together and married in the first place..

 

On the other hand cheaters often justify what they do by rewriting the marital history and building up a lot of resentment towards their spouse. To me it's hard to reconcile "liking" someone in any non-superficial way with the ultimate betrayal of cheating on them. I don't stick a knife in the back of the people I "like." .

True. I mean we liked each other before CHEATING of course. We always had a good foundation of mutual friendship BEFORE the cheating.

 

 

So for at least the past five or ten years, the marriage hasn't been good. The first ten years may have been great but you have to focus on what has been happening more recently. Your wife is 49 and seems to like younger men (ages 27 and 43). Most likely one of her motivations to cheat is approaching menopause and the sense of personal mortality and imagined opportunities which she feels she missed out on. You also mentioned her emotional issues which cannot be discounted as one of the factors in her cheating..

ALL TRUE and very perceptive. This has been something I thought as soon as I found out. The last few months from D-Day to me ending the affair, she was in an affair fog. Now that that fog has lifted, we are free to discuss what happened and why. She realizes what you just said.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes she is gone but that doesn't change the prolonged damage to the marriage that occurred. "I forgive you" can't change whatever damage those years of conflict involving your daughter caused to your marriage..

i know. The cold hard fact is that the marriage lost its "viginity" it will never be the same.

 

 

 

 

That's great but cheaters often interpret it as being "rewarded" for their acting-out behavior. "I cheated = my husband now pays more attention to me." Were there any negative consequences imposed for her cheating? It doesn't sound like it. .

 

There are obvious negatives consequences in my mind. Mostly her own doing and the circumstance she much live for as least the next year. Plus, the shame and sense of failure that is hers alone. That will never go away. In addition, I have the high road, here and on out, she never will.

 

Your question is important though and thought provoking. It hope you can clarify, if you could elaborate. I truly do not know how to answer this. What negative consequences are appropiate at this point in our healing process? Should I refuse intimancy? Make myself unavailable for talk? Tell her if she wants to continue the marriage call me only after six months of IC? <--- this last was actually suggested to me earlier in the thread.

 

 

 

 

I haven't read that there is a "forum philosophy" being espoused here..

Fair enough. Still I am glad to have your input. It is stimulating.

 

 

 

That's why a lot of people who get cheated on decide to divorce their cheating spouse..

I know. If the cheating hadn't ended I would have filed. I had the papers completed.

 

But you and anyone else is free to put aside the cheating, you are also free to put aside the damage that the interaction with your daughter caused, your wife's emotional problems, the prior separation...you are free to put it all out of your head and move forward. You are also free to put aside any worries that it could happen again, just like it happened multiple times in the past. Most people can't though. It's not a matter of "philosophy," it's just human nature--most people just can't swallow sexual and emotional betrayal so easily, it's too damaging, leaves too many scars..

 

Who could argue with that? I am unusual. I freely admit it. I have my boundaries, however. I have a fairly intact self esteem. So I am not too damaged to go on. But I am wounded, to be otherwise isn't healthy either, IMO. So only time will tell.

 

 

 

 

Is that what she told you? It's not consistent with her behavior.

It is consistent with her behavior since the affair ended. What else makes sense?

 

 

She was having fun, except you weren't included .

Doh! I didn't think of that

 

 

Rebuilding a marriage with a serial cheater isn't fun, it's a whole lot of work. Both of you have to be willing to do that work and it really doesn't sound like either of you want to. So go and have fun. Is fun going to address whatever issues made your wife cheat? .

 

 

 

What did your wife tell you the answer to this question is?..

Yes.

 

 

 

It wasn't "stolen", she gave it away.

Doh! I didn't think of that

 

 

Why not simplify things entirely and simply agree to having an open marriage? Then you don't have to worry about who she is having fun with at all. It's not my style but it might be yours. .

You put a lot of effort into your post. Thank you. I know because it took a lot of effort to reply! This last comment is provocative and rhetorical, but not helpful. Not my style either, friend.

 

Instead of ripping my efforts, why not give constructive suggestions? I am not trying to be critical, but that is what I mean by the forum has a flawed philosophy. Look at some of the postings in reply to mine #241 and #243. They weren't even directed to me. Instead they mock me to the rest of the readers. I can take it no problem. But realize this. I am serious about saving my marriage. It reminds me of the story about the resturant owner shot badly during a robbery. His name was Jerry:

 

Jerry continued, "The paramedics were great. They kept telling me I was going to be fine. But when they wheeled me into the Emergency Room and I saw the expressions on the faces of the doctors and nurses, I got really scared. In their eyes, I read 'He's a dead man.' I knew I needed to take action."

"What did you do?" I asked. "Well, there was a big nurse shouting questions at me," said Jerry. "She asked if I was allergic to anything." 'Yes,' I replied. The doctors and nurses stopped working as they waited for my reply. I took a deep breath and yelled, 'Bullets!' Over their laughter, I told them, 'I am choosing to live. Please operate on me as if I am alive, not dead'.

 

I would prefer if you would realize I am serious about saving my marriage and give me advice with that attitude.

[trader]

Are you going to address this potentially toxic and damaging quality of hers with a professional before you resume interaction?

 

It is my focus to get her to address her anger management issues. I have already resumed interaction and have no intention of cutting her off now. I believe the hostility I got in February was a smoke screen to cover the affair/guilt.

[turnera]

I don't. I think it's endemic of her personality. You've just never been the target before.

[trader]

I don't. I think it's endemic of her personality. You've just never been the target before.

 

I agree its endemic. She realizes this too. If there is a silver lining to this A cloud is that I have a powerful persuasion tool to get her to look in the mirror.

 

 

No I have been the target:rolleyes:, but it never had such a destructive consequence before.

[trader]

"Negative consequences" not from the sense of imposing a negative moral or ethical judgment--to which cheaters are largely immune--but in the sense of behavioral conditioning.

 

Think in terms of how you would have to train a small child or perhaps even a puppy, depending at what level of psychology you have to deal with.

 

If a small child takes a cookie, gets caught, cries, and you say "I forgive you", because seeing the child cry hurts you so much--even if you really did forgive the child--what has the child learned?

 

The child has learned that if it does something naughty--something that even a small child knows is "wrong" or "prohibited"-- gets caught, and engages in a particular behavior--crying--it will induce a favorable response from the authority figure--forgiveness.

 

In this case, the parent hasn't taught the child not to steal cookies. The parent has taught the child that crying is a method to manipulate the parent to avoid imposition of any serious consequence for the child's bad behavior.

 

Forgiveness might be necessary for you to feel better about the situation, and note I said "forgiveness easily given" which you translated to "forgiveness" per se--is not what your wife needs at this time. She needs boundaries and to be held fully accountable. Forgiveness is only appropriate, if ever, after she has established firm boundaries protective of the marriage and has learned to hold herself fully accountable for breaching those boundaries. And that is a process that will take years if it is at all possible.

 

It's not up to me to define for you what negative consequences need to be imposed on your wife or what positive encouragement for good behavior might be appropriate, either.

 

Perhaps the example of the child and the cookie is a little too minor to get my hands around. You forgive the child immediately, but the punishment is dealt regardless.

 

Boundaries and accountability are required, of course. They have already been set up. Its the punishment or negative consequences or reward for good behaviours that I am not fully comprehending from you. You gave kid and cookies as an example, but in a forum dedicated to the discussion of adultery, you emphatically tell others to have negative consequences, but can give not even the slightest example? Sorry, for the bluntness, but to me that is an intellectual cop out.

 

In February I cut off all communication and got no positive behaviour change. Once I killed the affair, I have recieved positive behaviours and I guess am rewarding as I see fit. - Sorry again, but I am at a loss.

[trader]

Maybe she was hostile because she was mad at you for disrupting her fun and games..

 

I never really disrupted fun and games until July when I ended the affair. Then she was really upset with the situatuation, but accepted every consequence since.

 

Why are you imputing "guilt" feelings to her?.

Perhaps I being presumptious and guilt is the wrong word. I have no doubt that the hostility I recieved in Feb was directly a smoke screen to cover that her hand "was in the cookie jar."

 

Nothing you have written suggests your wife is a woman who feels at all guilty about any of this. Again I am not talking about what she says to you, which can just be manipulation. I am talking about actions that she has taken that reflect guilt and remorse.

[turnera]

Maybe it would be better for both of you if you simply decide what you need in a partner, convey that to her, and don't make any moves toward her unless she is embodying those qualities. Any time you are around her, and she steps outside those qualities, you just get up and leave.

 

She'll learn.

[trader]

Maybe it would be better for both of you if you simply decide what you need in a partner, convey that to her, and don't make any moves toward her unless she is embodying those qualities. Any time you are around her, and she steps outside those qualities, you just get up and leave.

 

She'll learn.

 

That is pretty much what we do. Fortunately, since July 7th, she only stepped outside the envelope once. It was anger. On that day I did exactly that. When she asked why I told her. We are not so far from being on the same page.

[turnera]

Nice! Good job.

[trader]

abelincoln,

 

Sometimes I hear stuff from people and think it makes no sense to me. On the subject of forgiveness I find no better example. For awhile I thought that you said tow-mate-tow but I said tow-mott-tow, (tomatoe) but in that example, we are talking about the same thing. Then I realized that we are using the same word, forgiveness, to talk about different things! I think this is the problem. Forgiveness is one word with many meanings and ... words do not convey meaning they conjur meaning.

 

The child example helps me a lot. I still think it is a lousy example. But what does forgiveness mean to you?

 

It doesn't mean pardoning to me, that would be to null any consequence. In my defintion, for example, the child still goes to thier room.

 

Forgiveness is also not forgetting. I would need a lobotomy for that! I am not condoning or tolerating adultery either. So I am not "sweeping it under the rug" to treat the affair as non-existent. This is why I said, "the marriage has lost its virginity."

 

To me forgiving is simply letting go of my personal resentment. To take the chip off my shoulder. This is why I dont get the child analogy. I am not going to resent my child for doing any childish act. I will hold them accountable, with love, but resent them? No way.

 

Resentment is bad for your physical health. I am not going to hurt my health to get back at my WS! That would not make sense.

 

Resentment is destructive to relationships. People lose jobs and families, even killings and wars are fought because of resentment. It just does not make sense to me.

 

Resentment would bias to the negative every interaction with my wife. Would that be helpful?

 

So I am sure we are talking about different things when say forgiveness. For me its not holding resentment, what does that mean to you?

[trader]

So basically then forgiveness is an entirely internal process unrelated to what your wife has done or not done to recover the marriage from infidelity.

 

 

 

O.K., I understand that, assuming it was in fact an entirely internal process and you never told her you forgave her.

 

 

 

If you actually told her you forgave her, then that contradicts forgiveness being a totally internal process of giving up your resentment.

 

 

 

That would make forgiveness a two person interaction with your wife.

I agree fully. While forgiveness is letting go of my resentment, my side of the equation, it also affects her side of the equation, since it determines what bias I am going to use going forward in all my interactions with her.

 

 

And if that's the case, you have to analyze what your declaration of forgiveness might mean to your wife. Not just what you think it means.

 

 

 

Because cheaters so soon after d day take such an easy declaration of forgiveness as a pardon or a pass.

 

 

 

You have kept saying what "I" (that is what trader) believes things to mean--forgiveness, how many affairs were there, and other things--without really discussing what these things mean to your wife.

When I speak for myself, I can always do so with complete authority as to the veracity of the statement. I take what others say with a grain of salt, since I am not them and am not in their head. I take what my wife or anybody says at face value, then I filter that through their actions and other statements. But I rarely try to say what another person thinks. I might think I know their belief, but I know the difference between knowing I know and thinking I know.

 

 

 

Why did she pick a 27 year old and a 43 year old to cheat with in rapid succession? Did you ever ask her? Did she ever tell you? We've speculated it might be related to aging and menopause but you never said you talked to her about it.

I said this was a true statement, but that isn't clear. Yes we talked about this at length several times.

 

 

 

 

 

Why would you then make the assumption that your wife is anywhere on the same page with you concerning your forgiveness of her?

 

 

 

Some questions you really need to think about.

I should have edited that statement when I made it to turnera. I meant that I am on the same page with turnera, having already put into place one of her suggestions. My bad.

Did you ever ask her what she thinks your "forgiveness" means? Does she understand it's your way of letting go resentment but is not a pardon?

 

 

 

You're allowed to do and think whatever you want but just remember it all has an influence on your wife, and she looks at the world far differently than you do. Don't make the assumption that she will put the same meaning to words and actions as you do, because she hasn't.

 

I haven't asked that question or told her my forgiveness is anything other than what it is, but this opens a good line of reasoning.

 

I was priviledged to grow up with an actress for a mother. She performed mostly on the stage, trained in an English drama school. She was accomplished and always got great reviews. I witnessed how her theater friends "performed" in everyday interactions. One of them was my 4th grade teacher. It was curious to me to wonder who the genuine person was inside most of them. They were so different from my dad's friends! I prefer to be authentic. It might piss someone off, it might not be politically correct, but what you see is what you get.

 

I don't know if you gathered this from the earlier thread postings. I might not have been clear. When my wife moved out a year ago last June, I harbored resentment. We still saw each other right up until the affair started, but I withheld a little to let her know what a stupid thing she did to move out. What did that get me? What progress was made cause I played her like that? Zip. Negative zip. Really great idea you have. This is the contribution I made to our current status. I never cheated on her, but I didn't give her my all, either.

 

I finally decided if I want my marriage back, I have to let go of resentment. Period. It is destructive. Once I make that decsion, I present myself consistent to my inner self. Anything else is inauthentic and designed to manipulate. Somebody in the marriage has to lead. Leadership by example is more compelling to me. If I expect honesty from my spouse I better expect it from myself.

 

Perhaps you are concerned that I might exhibit a battered wife (husband) syndrome. Where one gets assaulted, forgives, gets assaulted, forgives, rinse repeat, etc. I have stated every way I know that letting go of resentment is not equivalent to pardoning, condoning, sweeping under the rug, etc. There is little chance of that.

 

I said in my return post that the WS and I have reconciled. In the sense of a return to intimacy, we have. I have read other threads though, that state reconciliation from an affair can take 5-6 years! I almost agree with that. I just don't think any amount of time will remove the fact that one partner stepped out of the bounds of marriage and defiled the union. The "lost virginity" I said before. Still, the idea that it takes years to work out all of the angles to get as close to the original marriage as possible, begs for a common sense approach. We can't get everything worked out in a week, a month, or years. But we can sure as hell do something positive every day. Put the past behind us. Learn new ways of interacting. Hold each other accountable. Don't play silly little head games and don't tolerate them either. If you think head games are the way to move forward, just keep advising that is how to get your mate in line. It never worked for me. I ain't going there.

[standtall]

I don't think the doormat ever says to the shoes stepping on it " hey I'm a doormat and I'm okay with that", I think the doormat says " watch it, if you keep it up I may trip you"..but never does.

 

Trader...you wife is using you..and if your okay with that, then your okay with that, but she is definitely using you.

[Scott68]

TRADER

As I sit in my office on a Saturday night because I don't want to go "home" I must say, and I mean this from the bottom of my very black and numb heart, you are a hell of a man. You are the man I wish I could get myself to be. You are willing to put your pride aside and take some blame (however misgudided I think your admission is) for your wife's actions.

This alone is proof that you deserve better than you are currently getting. I am sorry for your pain and wish you peace of heart & mind with God's speed.

[trader]

I think I get it now.

 

Trader, your wife basically does as she pleases, using you as her back up plan, and you've convinced yourself you're in control of the relationship.

 

Maybe you are, but it doesn't look that way from the outside to some of us.

 

 

I think being in control of anyone with a free will is an illusion. I can only control myself. Some people can't even accomplish that.

 

 

I don't think the doormat ever says to the shoes stepping on it " hey I'm a doormat and I'm okay with that", I think the doormat says " watch it, if you keep it up I may trip you"..but never does.

 

Trader...you wife is using you..and if your okay with that, then your okay with that, but she is definitely using you.

 

I felt used before the affair ended, sure. I don't feel used now. My doormat keeps to itself, so I can't really say what's its opinion.

 

TRADER

As I sit in my office on a Saturday night because I don't want to go "home" I must say, and I mean this from the bottom of my very black and numb heart, you are a hell of a man. You are the man I wish I could get myself to be. You are willing to put your pride aside and take some blame (however misgudided I think your admission is) for your wife's actions.

This alone is proof that you deserve better than you are currently getting. I am sorry for your pain and wish you peace of heart & mind with God's speed.

 

Just to be real clear. I take no blame for the affair or her actions before or during the affair. I had nothing to do with the affair. That was 100% her. That blame always goes to her. There is no excuse for that, never will be. This has been stated several times. It will always be stated, forever. Any attempt on her part to rewrite history will always meet this declaration.

 

What I accept is my role in the marriage before the affair. I injected negativity that had some role in degrading the relationship. Not all of the blame, but to make the math easier, let's say 50% of the responsibility and no more. I have stated this to her, too.

 

I deserved better than I got, I deserve better than I am getting. In a twisted way, I think she deserved a better fate then she had chosen during the affair. I think it was a very self-destructive and debasing path to be on.

 

I haven't really put away any "pride", in fact, I take pride in my position. It isn't pride I put away for the better of us. It isn't accountability or boundaries. It is resentment. To me harboring resentment has only one real purpose. That is to destroy the relationship and possibly myself in the process.

 

 

This what I summarize from some writer's in the forum. Any affair must be answered with bitterness, resentment, and usually divorce. I don't think bitterness and resentment are useful traits to embrace, even if you decide divorce is the only path you can take. It only hurts you.

 

During the last 7 years of my first (13 year) marriage I was treated for high blood pressure. A few months after it ended, my medication ran out. I went back for more and found out that with the wife gone, so went the hypertension. It never came back, either.

 

I could easily surmise that the wife caused the high blood pressure, but I realized that was not the case. She created an impossible situation for me, sure. But how I chose to respond to that created negative energy in me. I chose to go forward in life and focus on controlling me. If I am in control of me, then others outside of myself, get to chose how they respond to me.

 

So far, I like the results I get when I am true to this principle.

[nofool4u]

UPDATE:

 

A lot of stuff went down since I last posted on 11 May. It will take sometime to tell the whole story. I will start with an executive summary right away.

 

The wife and I have reconciled.

 

No, you decided to stay together, you have not reconciled....yet.

 

Ok then, good luck with that.

[nofool4u]

There you are, 2sunny. And asking for the salient points. Well done. She did not end it with the other guy I did.

 

Yup, you had to do it, she wasn't going to do it on her own. I guarantee you she still wants to be with him, but it was YOU that had to put the foot down, not her.

 

 

My real goal was to drive out the other guy with kindness.

 

But it shouldn't be YOU that has to drive him out. For true reconciliation, SHE had to be the one that did it. But she didn't and didn't want to.

 

Like someone else already said, YOU did the heavy lifting and made the effort into repairing the damage she has done. She didn't do a thing.

Sorry to say this, but she has you wrapped around her little finger. She could tell you that she still wanted the OM and you would have put up with it, and you have, did, and still are. Not saying this to make you mad, but you have to see that she hasn't done a thing other than let you do the dirty work.