Struggling

[spiderowl]

In some ways I've had a good night. I've been chatting to several guys online and all of them want to meet me. One in particular sounded lovely. However, I felt despondent and hopeless about it all and put them off. I've been really hurt in the past by three guys in a row, all of whom unexpectedly decided to end the relationship. One didn't really get off the ground anyway but I liked him. In some ways, I can't really blame the other two because I was non-committal with them though I had no intention of running off with someone else. It still hurt like hell to find they didn't want to continue.

 

Moving forward, I now find it impossible to trust a guy. I rarely get as far as meeting any of these guys. I am convinced they are talking to me because: they are horny and any woman would do; there was no one better around; want to sleep with me just to score then move on - you name it, none of them would want me for more than a fling. Two of the guys tonight said I was really pretty and they were very attracted. I'm not, I'm average, but I still can't believe anything a guy says. Any hint of sexual interest. joking or flirting and I feel really defensive. I think it's flattery and they don't mean a word of it and are just looking for any woman for sex. I put these guys off until they give up trying to jump through hoops. I'm deeply suspicious of their motives. I end up frustrated and upset that once again I am alone and that no-one cares. Some of the guys sound genuine and yet even they get frustrated with me.

 

I ended up in tears tonight with frustration. I really wanted to say to this guy that I'd like to meet him, but I couldn't. I could barely even indicate that I liked him. I don't know how I can get past this. I want to feel that warmth and closeness again but I know I'll end up feeling used and hurt. I wish I could resolve this but have no idea how.

Edited May 6, 2012 by spiderowl

[Glambada]

Please do not worry being hurt and explore your options. You know you don't deserve to be alone, go out with all of the ones you find interesting. Of course none of them are going to care...these do not know you personally and most importantly you are not going to marry them. Just have fun.

[Cryptonomic]

Hi.

 

I think the key thing you say is "I could barely even indicate that I liked him. I don't know how I can get past this." This seems to stem from you being hurt in the past, even though you were honest enough to suggest that some bits of noncommital behavior on your part may have factored into this.

 

The fear of getting hurt is certainly a powerful one.

 

I think the "getting past this" part is tied up with the fear of getting hurt.

 

So, as a thought, with a guy you find yourself really liking, maybe start to be honest with him about your fears. I'm not saying you have to tell him everything right away. But just be honest and say something like "Hey, I really liked this conversation. I'm going to be honest. I haven't had the best experiences in the past, so I'm really in a take it slow mode right now. How do you feel about that?"

 

If this guy is genuine, he should respond positively to that. He can back that up by not being pushy in later conversations. If he is truly looking for things that you want, then there should be no problem with a measured approach in conversations.

 

It's okay to be suspicious of motives but I think you have to be cautious about ascribing motives automatically. I know you probably know this. But it's something to focus on during the conversation itself. Use that focus to steer the conversation with a bit of honesty about your concerns.

 

Speaking as a guy, if any woman did that with me, I would entirely respect that because she is establishing boundaries. And THAT tells me she has boundaries in the first place. And THAT tells me she has self respect and is cautious, which I think are two very important traits.

[spiderowl]

Thanks, I find both your comments really helpful. I hope to make some progress this year and not end up lonely and frustrated.

[firehawk_1]

i think you should take a break and focus on making yourself better otherwise if you ever do meet someone, you will mess them around and that isnt good - then you are back to square one and maybe even in a worse state than before - again, not good.

[spiderowl]

Thanks, but I've had a long break from a relationship and I'd really like to be with someone nice. I don't want to mess them around. I'm very sensitive to any hint they might. I don't know if I'm over-sensitive or if I'm just picking up on genuine red flags. It's complicated.

[Cryptonomic]

I don't know if I'm over-sensitive or if I'm just picking up on genuine red flags. It's complicated.

 

I agree, it is complicated and thus it may not be an either-or. "Either I am over-sensitive or I am picking up on genuine red flags." Rather, it could be a bit of both in some cases. In other cases, it could be just one of them. Or it could even be a third component.

 

It does seem, based on what you have said so far, that you might tend towards confirmation bias. What I mean by that is that you look for confirming instances of what suspect ("guy only wants me for a fling") and thus you are so tuned to looking for evidence, that you find it -- even if it is not there.

 

The good news: lots and lots of us do this. It's very human.

 

The bad news: it's a real pain to our dating life, as you've found out.

 

Maybe it would help you to describe to us what you look for in terms of red flags. Tell us what you think the warning signs are. Don't worry about whether we'll agree or disagree. Just tell us what you think and what you look for.

[spiderowl]

I appreciate your comments and agree about the confirmation bias. I look for sex chat too soon - I really don't think it's appropriate unless it crops up in conversation naturally. It rarely does crop up naturally but is brought up by them, usually after a couple of messages. Personally, if they steer the conversation that way, it really turns me off and I feel that's it, just another guy looking for sex.

 

I suppose I assume that any guy I meet is going to end up hurting me, unless I do it first (which has happened). I never intended to hurt anyone but realised they weren't right for me. I suspect their motives al. the time. They are too young, too old, too stupid (well that's often true, lol), too forward, too casual, too intense, you name it.

 

I'm reluctant to give a guy an obvious come on, in case he rejects it or he thinks I am offering him more than a chance to get to know each other. I feel ashamed if I smile at a guy I don't know well, if he hasn't spoken to me first, for instance.

 

I don't know why I'm so restrained really. I just don't want to end up feeling used.

Edited May 7, 2012 by spiderowl

[FitChick]

Someone is going to have their feelings hurt. It's part and parcel of dating. Be the best "You" you can be. That is the only thing you can control. If someone dumps you it's because they were not right for you so thank them for not wasting their time and yours. Seldom do strangers deliberately set out to hurt you.

[Cryptonomic]

I look for sex chat too soon - I really don't think it's appropriate unless it crops up in conversation naturally. It rarely does crop up naturally but is brought up by them, usually after a couple of messages.

 

If this is the case, I agree with you: it's too soon. At least to me, speaking as a guy, I would not start going into conversations about sexuality of any sort that early in a conversation. I agree that if someone starts pushing this angle, particularly if there is no real context for that kind of discussion, then they are probably interested in that above and beyond any true relationship.

 

I suppose I assume that any guy I meet is going to end up hurting me, unless I do it first (which has happened).

 

Sure, I can understand that. In my own life, I've tended to feel that most friends are going to leave you anyway so what I do is simply not make a lot of friends. It's a pre-emptive move essentially. Unfortunately, as you know, it can also really limit us.

 

I suspect their motives al. the time. They are too young, too old, too stupid (well that's often true, lol), too forward, too casual, too intense, you name it.

 

So two things here: suspecting motives all the time can, of course, lead you to find them. We already agree on that it seems. As far as the "too {something}" list you gave, that looks to be a bigger issue, perhaps. It seems you might be looking for any reason to not form that attachment or to find fault.

 

So I wonder: when you find you are making the "too old" or "too young" or "too {whatever}" conclusion, is this before or after you feel the person has steered the conversation toward sex or some other issue you don't want to go for?

 

In other words, I'm wondering if you are first finding the "bad motives" problem and then ascribing the other qualities ("too young", "too old") or alternatively, are you starting with the qualities ("too young", "too old") and THEN ascribing bad motives?

 

I'm reluctant to give a guy an obvious come on, in case he rejects it or he thinks I am offering him more than a chance to get to know each other.

 

As far as this, I suppose it all depends on what the "come on" is. Some people can be very blatant with this and give a very mixed signal. Others might treat it as just simple flirting. I really think it goes back to setting expectations early with the person you are talking with. If you think there is room for ambiguity in your approach -- i.e., the guy might get the wrong idea -- then you can perhaps moderate your approach a bit.

 

Mind, I'm not saying that your approach is the problem. I'm just wondering what your approach is.

 

I feel ashamed if I smile at a guy I don't know well, if he hasn't spoken to me first, for instance.

 

That's interesting but, as I think on it, I guess I tend to be a little reserved in how much I do or do not smile at someone that I don't know. Whether that's just us being cautious or being afraid of giving the wrong signal, I don't know. I don't so much feel ashamed but, as a guy, I sometimes worry if smiling at a woman I don't know will come off as "leering at her" or something like that. I only worry about this, interestingly enough, if the person I want to smile at is actually someone I want to get to know!

 

Anyway, given what you just said there: would it be inaccurate to say that you don't trust yourself to give the "appropriate" signals or cues to a guy you are talking with?

[spiderowl]

Thanks for all your insights and time. I'll respond to your questions, Cryptonomic.

 

I am very suspicious of motives online and most guys seem to bear that out by starting the sex talk or dropping it into the conversation casually. They then move on to 'have you got pictures' or 'cam' or 'what do you look like'. If I'm not on IM, they ask to go on IM because they are hoping I've got a picture on there. Basically, all they care about is what I look like. I feel like all guys are interested in is my body. I give up on them then.

 

I know what you mean about friends and I guess I'm doing the same thing with guys, pre-empting them leaving and hurting me by just not giving them the chance.

 

So I wonder: when you find you are making the "too old" or "too young" or "too {whatever}" conclusion, is this before or after you feel the person has steered the conversation toward sex or some other issue you don't want to go for?

 

Sometimes, they've already started talking about sex and then I just write them off basically. Sometimes they are just slow in responding, can't write reasonably well or say things I don't find amusing. Sometimes, as in older, they seem dated in their language and views or slow. I'm not boasting but I'm pretty intelligent and work with very intelligent people who absorb more information in minutes than some guys could cope with in a day. I know I would go crazy with a guy that couldn't keep up mentally. I don't trust guys more than 10 years younger than me and yet many maintain they are genuine.

 

I don't approach guys; they approach me. But occasionally I've felt it would help to at least give an indication that I'd like someone to approach me. But I can't seem to do it, especially, like you, when I like them. If I do smile or be friendly with them and they don't follow up pretty soon, I assume they are not interested and switch off from them. I find it hard to look them in the eye, always had difficulty with this, so I guess I come across as evasive or very changeable.

 

I'm probably better resigning myself to being alone for the rest of my life but somehow I can't do that.

Edited May 8, 2012 by spiderowl

[Cryptonomic]

I feel like all guys are interested in is my body. I give up on them then.

 

I would think you are right to give up on them if such is their attitude.

 

Sometimes they are just slow in responding, can't write reasonably well or say things I don't find amusing. Sometimes, as in older, they seem dated in their language and views or slow.

 

The funny thing here is that you sound like I sound! I too enjoy discussion with someone who is articulate (both verbally and in writing), who have a sense of wit, and even a bit of style in terms of how they communicate. Whether I have any of that myself is, of course, up for debate.

 

I know I would go crazy with a guy that couldn't keep up mentally.

 

Again, I can relate. I do have lots of interests and while I don't expect someone to share all my particular interests, I do like to know that people are active and curious about the world around them.

 

I'm not trying to turn this around and make it about me but what's interesting is that with the traits I have -- which seem to match at least some of what you say -- I have been told by some women that I have seemed "unapproachable" mainly because of the "high standards" that I have set for myself and thus would probably set on someone else.

 

In other words, I've been told that I'm not so much aloof or standoffish as I seem to just have really high expectations. I was never conscious of applying whatever "standards" I set for myself on others, but apparently I did come off that way.

 

Not saying that's you or your situation, but the similarities are just interesting. However, that's probably not related at all to the next part:

 

But occasionally I've felt it would help to at least give an indication that I'd like someone to approach me. But I can't seem to do it, especially, like you, when I like them. If I do smile or be friendly with them and they don't follow up pretty soon, I assume they are not interested and switch off from them.

 

My problem has been that when I do the smile and they don't follow up -- beyond perhaps smiling back or something -- I then feel like the onus is on me to actually go forward with the next step. Because I've learned that if I don't, they may not. And then it's a lost opportunity.

 

Sounds like an easy solution. The only slight hiccup in that is I have trouble myself on the approach part. I'm way too worried thinking about all the ways that I probably misread THEIR signals rather than worrying if they are misreading mine. Also, turning this around a little bit, I guess I worry about what you worry about: I worry that if I approach women, they may think all I want is sex or a fling.

 

I find it hard to look them in the eye, always had difficulty with this, so I guess I come across as evasive or very changeable.

 

Yeah, this is something I've struggled with a bit. Although as I get to know someone it's actually a lot easier for me. So the trick is getting over that hurdle of the initial "getting to know you phase."

 

One thing that stuck with me is what you said early on: "none of them would want me for more than a fling." You seem to feel that this is all guys would want you for. (Admittedly you seem to have run across some that probably do.) You also said: "I know I'll end up feeling used and hurt."

 

The key word there is "feeling." You didn't say you WOULD end up used and hurt. You said you would end up FEELING used and hurt. At the very least that suggests that even if the guy was not using you or hurting you, you might still come to feel that he was.

 

So maybe the question is this: What could a guy do to convince you (to your level of satisfaction) that he was not interested in just using you?

 

I know the signs you look for that are bad. But what are the signs you look for that are good?

[spiderowl]

Thanks for much, Crpt, for your thoughts on this. It's very strange how you seem to be in the mirror position. I wish you all the best; it can't be easy for guys. I can tell for sure you are intelligent and articulate so I think you have nothing to fear on that front.

 

I do wonder what 'high standards' you are setting for yourself and others that are apparent to others? I don't know if I demonstrate my own standards in such a way that it's obvious to others. Maybe these things are. I don't think I'd come across as nitpicking, which could be offputting, but who knows how others see you? I don't see anything wrong in having high standards. My own are particularly integrity, kindness and generosity.

 

"My problem has been that when I do the smile and they don't follow up -- beyond perhaps smiling back or something -- I then feel like the onus is on me to actually go forward with the next step. Because I've learned that if I don't, they may not. And then it's a lost opportunity."

 

Yes, I would say so. I don't know about most women but I would expect the guy to follow up. Personally, I don't think guys really do value women who make the first moves, even though they say otherwise. They might value a woman who talks to them and who isn't obviously picking them up, but that's different to a clear pick-up.

 

"Sounds like an easy solution. The only slight hiccup in that is I have trouble myself on the approach part. I'm way too worried thinking about all the ways that I probably misread THEIR signals rather than worrying if they are misreading mine. Also, turning this around a little bit, I guess I worry about what you worry about: I worry that if I approach women, they may think all I want is sex or a fling."

 

I think it's really tough for guys to know what to do. Just being warm and friendly seems best to me. Being overly flirty can be uncomfortable with such an approach but gradually working towards flirtation means you have chance to feel comfortable with the guy beforehand. The guys who are just looking for a pick-up usually get round to flirting from the start and don't listen. They don't waste time on getting to know you unless it's geared towards getting you alone. I find such approaches awkward but a guy just happening to chat and be friendly is nice and a chance to get to know someone new.

 

One thing that stuck with me is what you said early on: "none of them would want me for more than a fling." You seem to feel that this is all guys would want you for. (Admittedly you seem to have run across some that probably do.) You also said: "I know I'll end up feeling used and hurt."

 

I suppose I came to that conclusion after they opted out. Both wanted me to say it was an exclusive relationship and one wanted to be introduced to my social circle but I felt it was too soon. They both said they loved me, too soon. I think they were stupid or lying. In one case, I'm pretty sure the guy was trying to invade my life and walk all over it before he left, just to see if he could. It's a long story but he wasn't what he seemed. That's why I felt used. How do I know they are not lying now? It's impossible.

 

I think your point about feeling used was very good. Maybe that's not what they set out to do, well most. I'll mull that one over - thanks.

 

"So maybe the question is this: What could a guy do to convince you (to your level of satisfaction) that he was not interested in just using you?"

 

Such a difficult question. Being close to my age maybe - much younger and I assume they are just looking for fun, though I've had some of the sweetest and warmest messages from young guys. Wanting to know about me and not just what I look like or wanting cam. Telling me about himself too. Most guys are too busy asking what you look like or trying the push the sex jokes lines to be revealing about themselves. Having a 'plan', like wanting to get to know me, spend time with me and hopefully have a long relationship if it works out well. Just some fun or see how it goes suggests sex fling to me though I know no-one can commit to anything just like that. Being mindful of security - guys looking for sex want to visit you at your house asap, so are constantly pressuring or looking for an invite. A respectful guy would appreciate that you won't want to meet for the first time at your home, for safety reasons. Keeping in touch regularly and talking about things other than sex at least some of the time.

 

Other than that, I don't know. Any ideas as to what to look for?

Edited May 8, 2012 by spiderowl

[Cryptonomic]

I do wonder what 'high standards' you are setting for yourself and others that are apparent to others?

 

I know I display a passion for learning. I read a lot, I study a lot, and I publish a lot. I know sometimes people feel that this means I want to discuss things to the same level that I seem to think about them. So, for example, it's easy to get me started on topics like "how to explain relativity without math" to "why Kings and Chronicles in the Hebrew Scriptures were written with different agendas" and so forth.

 

But I really don't care if someone doesn't share my passion for something. I just like talking about things and, in turn, I like to hear what other people have to say, even if I have no clue about the area they are discussing.

 

So, to me, passion for learning and sharing what you learned is a driver of me and, thus, a standard I put on myself. Whether I come off as demanding that of others -- I'm not sure. I hope not, even though I do like people to be creative and curious.

 

I do have a strong work ethic (or at least think I do) and while I realize my career cannot be everything, there have been times where I've been told that I seem to put my career ahead of relationships. Being honest, I have to say that in some cases I probably have done exactly that. But even at work I tend to be someone who comes in and just works. I don't really socialize a lot at work; don't go to office parties, etc. So, from a work perspective, I could see how someone finds that a "standard" and one that makes me a bit unapproachable.

 

Personally, I don't think guys really do value women who make the first moves, even though they say otherwise. They might value a woman who talks to them and who isn't obviously picking them up, but that's different to a clear pick-up.

 

I think whether a guy values the "first moves" is really whether that guy sees himself as too timid to make those first moves. Or maybe I'm projecting. Speaking for myself, and going with an example in another thread here where I mentioned a woman I have seen on a train, I would love it if she would make the first move. (Assuming she even wanted to.) I say that because I don't know how to make the first move -- in our context -- without either seeming creepy or stalker-ish.

 

All that said, I think your substantive point -- that most guys prefer to make the first move -- is accurate.

 

That's why I felt used. How do I know they are not lying now? It's impossible.

 

Right, it can be tricky. The problem is that some people are just good liars. The other problem is that some people are *lying to themselves.* It's not even that they set out to just want a fling; but, in fact, that's what they really wanted and all they ever really wanted. And eventually that becomes clear to them. (Whether they admit it at that point or continue their behavior is, of course, dependent upon the person.)

 

I had asked: What could a guy do to convince you (to your level of satisfaction) that he was not interested in just using you?

 

You gave good answers and then asked in turn: "Any ideas as to what to look for?"

 

Again, I think what you described is spot on. If guys are doing what you describe then your defenses would necessarily be up. And, in my opinion, rightfully so.

 

All I can say is when I try to convince someone that I am truly interested, I do the following:

 

 

• I be very expressive about myself and who I am and where I've come from in life. I do that so they can see I do have a defined life and that I'm a person with a past, not just some entity in a chat or a bar. I also try do this to try to prove that I do have a defined self and I'm not just looking for someone else to validate who I am.
  

• I try to understand where the other person has come from. I want to know who THEY are. I don't just want to know what music they like or what their favorite color is. I want to know what shaped them as a person. (There's a great song by Rascal Flatts called "Take Me There" that I think perfectly sums up how I look at it.)
  

• I try to make sure I ask questions about whatever they are talking to me about. Not only so I can better understand but so that I can show I am truly listening. (This, by the way, can probably come off as a little overbearing because I know I do ask a ton of questions when I try to learn about someone. I have beend told that I am an "intense questioner." It's something I try to modulate, not always successfully.)
  

• I try to be as honest as possible about my flaws or, at least, what I perceive as my flaws. I like when a person recognizes they have aspects of themselves that they are working on. The trick here is of course not being all doom and gloom ("And here's another horrible thing about me...") but just showing that you are honest with yourself. If you are honest with yourself, you have a better chance of being honest with someone else.
  

I guess it's hard to nail down. I just try to be like a person that I would want to meet. Probably doesn't help you at all, does it? It does seem you have had a run of bad luck in terms of encountering guys who were clearly interested in looks above anything else and thus more interested in moving on to physical things.

 

Could this be a venue problem? In other words, the places you are looking are filled with those kind of people and thus you are more likely than not to encounter one. Are there are other avenues you could explore where you might find more like-minded people?

[spiderowl]

I know I display a passion for learning. I read a lot, I study a lot, and I publish a lot.

 

I can't see anything wrong with a passion for learning or talking about it as long as others aren't forced to participate beyond their natural curiosity about something new. Most people have limited tolerance of something they don't understand. Mostly though, if you want to get to know a woman, it's best to talk about more personal things as you can't build intimacy with academic subjects. It doesn't mean they have to be excluded though. You listen and that's really important.

 

"I do have a strong work ethic ... there have been times where I've been told that I seem to put my career ahead of relationships ... I don't really socialize a lot at work."

 

If someone told you this, it's worth listening to. You could come across as too serious and ambitious, not willing to relax and have fun. I know exactly what you mean about not socialising at work as I tend not to do that either. In fact, I would say it's better to socialise outside work not at work, but that's just me. People at work like you to socialise and one can become marginalised if not.

 

I understand the dilemma about the woman on the train. I know I wouldn't get talking to a guy on a train, unless he sat next to me and seemed nice, not just there to chat me up. I would suggest you build little bridges - smile on one occasion, offer to help with bags, sit not far away, ask to borrow a newspaper, that kind of thing, to build a bridge between not being familiar and not talking to being in informal contact.

 

I think you are right about people lying to themselves. This is why I can't trust guys: their sex drive seems to be stronger than reason. However, if you can't trust someone to be rational, where does that leave you? Just taking risks.

 

I think it's great that you let women know who you are. One can go too far with this (if it's just the guy talking all the time) but it's a lot better than just asking for her physical stats. It's also good that you want to know about her - that is definitely missing if the guy is only interested in sex.

 

If you've been told you're an intense questioner, again it's worth bearing that in mind - as you seem to be doing. I also question but mainly in my head while I'm listening. Intensity of any kind can be overwhelming and a little more casual might not hurt you. I suspect you are not doing anything wrong but maybe aren't building intimacy by being diverted by questions and your subjects of interest. Is that possible?

 

Honesty is great and does build intimacy. Some guys think brutal honesty is good (usually described as 'down to earth' or 'say what I think'. No, it's not, it's just unpleasant.

 

I agree there is a venue problem. I've tried dating sites. I've also chatted in chat rooms (and surprisingly there are some nice guys there who are just lonely), but I've not found the kind of person I'd like to meet.

 

I do go to other venues but having ruled out my immediate circle of friends, seem to have come to a dead end. Guys my age don't seem to flirt or ask women out any longer. Younger guys do, but then what are their motives? I feel really stuck.

Edited May 8, 2012 by spiderowl

[Glambada]

Thanks, I find both your comments really helpful. I hope to make some progress this year and not end up lonely and frustrated.

You are welcome, sorry for any typos/grammar errors, by the way. It is okay to have those emotions too!