I had the affair...and am ambivalent about reconciliation.

[Character Floss]

Hi All,

 

My wife and I have been married 7.5 years. It is a second marriage for her, third for me; my first wife died when she was only 31, and I was 28. The second marriage...I got into too quickly, thinking I was OK and making good decisions...I didn't realize till much later that I did not know how wounded I was. Bad decision, two beautiful children, $3k/month child support/maintenance (and I am not a lawyer, physician, business-owner, but after 8 years of marriage/ex not working, did not want her to have to change her lifestyle too much).

 

I was divorced about three and a half years before remarrying. It was a tumultuous time as custody/visitation became an issue after that and we went through two and a half years of court battles and about $45,000.

 

My wife is a wonderful woman. I respect her. At one time I adored her, and found I was so thankful that we were married, that on sleepless nights I was glad to watch her sleep, stroke her hair and softly pray for her. We know each other well.

 

At the same time, our sex life was never great (with my ex, it was), and I never really felt "wanted" by her. After my stepson started going to bed at 9PM (or later), our sex life often was non-existent. My wife has a demanding job, which is in healthcare in an arena where the financial rewards do not match the contributions. So she was often asleep by 8:30, and afraid of making any noise. The "salvation" was that he would see his father every other weekend, but when he graduated high school, that stopped. He is almost 20, in junior college (and failing remedial courses due to lack of effort). Yes, there is a bone of contention there, as he has only had one job, and was fired from it (washing dishes at KFC).

 

2009 was the turning year, I think. I am a high-energy person, and by "norm" I do what needs to be done, as far as household tasks are concerned. By mutual consent I did the cooking; I also did most laundry, housework, shopping and such (shopping for staples/food). I even wound up the one to check the stepson's grades, etc., and email them to my wife.

 

However, she is intelligent, often perceptive, gifted in many ways and dedicated. I think because she was so tired I expected less and less of her, and eventually realized I was hurt over what I perceived as a lack of wanting me (raw desire). She has had trouble touching in anything other than a "comfort/relax" manner, and in truth, when we wed I wound up in an emotional maelstrom due to the court battles, and I think my wife was comfortable in the "strong" or even (eek!) parental position. I have worked hard on my own therapy and no longer need a parent.

 

Without realizing it, my care for whether or not she loved me or showed me love waned and disappeared. In other words, I was no longer going to be hurt by any lack of desire or care. That also meant that to a degree, she no longer mattered to me. I still did the "care" things, down to rubbing her back, arms and hands; "stealing" her van from the work parking lot if I knew it was low on gas to fill and return it; preparing special meals; making sure that if I bought her a gift, it was particular to her. However, I had reached a point where I no longer cared if she showed love to me.

 

Before reaching that point, I had suggested/asked for MT. I was rebuffed, though gently: "Whom would we see?" "Do you really think that exploring our childhoods matters? Just tell me what you want me to do differently?"

 

She comes from a good family, though very different from mine. Hers was a conservative Pentecostal family from a small midwest town. To this day, her parents cannot admit that their pastors actually were wrong about anything! I was raised an east coast heathen, though am not such any longer. However, I am more blunt, use terms like "pissed off" without thinking they are "cuss words" and enjoy having a beer. I was told that out of respect for her parents, though, we could not keep any alcohol in the house, etc.

 

So life goes on. We work well together in many ways. About a year and a half ago she finally put my name on the bank accounts (though my checks were direct-deposited, we had not done that/not sure why). She asked me to take over bill payment. I had asked her for about a year to use something like Quicken to help us develop a budget, but to no avail. We are not climbing out of debt.

 

And, a bit over two years ago, we met a woman through church (aye, there's the rub) who became our friend. However, my wife after a while made the decision that this woman (call her Ann) was too demanding and a bit weird. Not having had a healthy family life herself, she saw us as surrogate. The straw was when Ann once asked to spend the night, as she was very scary on edge (has had substance abuse issues) and did not want to be alone to face her demons that night. My wife thought it entirely inappropriate to ask to stay at our house for the night. That was something only (blood) family should do.

 

Ann's family life was such that my wife and I, together with my mother, through Ann a surprise birthday party when she turned 38...and it was the first birthday party she had ever had in her life. Her 19 year-old daughter and her boyfriend also came, and it was a great time.

 

Ann and I stayed friends. I liked her. I got to know her better and yes, she and my wife were still friends. By September 2011, Ann realized (I did not) that she was looking forward to seeing me or speaking to me too much, so she backed way. In church she was in tears. I didn't know why, but she said later it was simply missing me. I had NEVER had a thought about her "that way," never. It was just out of the question and out of mind. I'd not had an affair.

Note: Early on I realized that some man would be very fortunate to wake up to her each morning; and, in August or so, she once said, "If you weren't married already, I would marry you tomorrow." That stuck with me. I don't want an affair with her.

 

Well Ann calls one Monday as she was leaving an individual therapy appointment and asks if she can come by my office to talk. I said, "Sure." She sits down at a right angle to me and finally says, "I have missed you." "I have missed you so much," I reply, tears starting to run down my cheeks.

 

THEN, for the first time, I was attracted to her; I wanted to kiss her, and when she asked what I was thinking, I told her I couldn't tell her. After some prodding I did. She confirmed she wanted to kiss me, too, and we then discussed how we could not do this, how wrong it would be, etc. Then she came over to my chair and began deeply kissing me. If we had been alone we probably would have made love right then. This was September 30.

 

We decided we could not do this, but then she asked, "Could we, just once? I just want to know what you are like, and to give you a gift...to love you."

 

You can guess what happened. At times we were not sexually involved, but we made love a few times, and enjoyed a half-dozen "quickies." More importantly, we enjoyed being with one another. The magical memory of Christmas was shopping with her and her daughter. I love her, and I know it.

 

My wife finally pleaded for MT in December, knowing something was wrong. We began together, and individually I told the therapist about the affair, which was then "suspended" as we were trying to learn to be friends. February 11 I confessed the affair and moved out (therapist's advice). I ended contact with Ann, though eventually I told my wife I wanted a divorce and did not see why we should drag this out. This was in February. I was a chicken-$hit, and told her this by email. She had all my stuff out of her house that day and on the porch where I am staying, re-arranging the house to absorb the corner of our office that I had occupied, giving me every picture, card, etc. I was proud of her.

 

However, I came to believe that what I was doing, just pushing a divorce, was wrong. After a wonderful ten days with Ann I could not take the guilt, and I ended the affair. She asked for "break-up" sex and I told her--we could go make love, but I am done with lies; I'll text my wife first saying I will not give Ann up, and then we could go to my place. She did not want to do that.

 

So here I am, almost three months later, with weekly MT with my wife. My wife and I have not even kissed since then, and I don't want to. Frankly, the thought of sex/intimacy with anyone is "revolting," emotionally, unless I were to think of being with Ann. I would not be bothered seeing my wife with another man.

 

Yet...we have learned how to communicate more effectively. She is realizing how sexual/sensual a being she is, and how she has denied/repressed that. Yes, she read "Fifty Shades" and the sequels...The work has been difficult, particularly for her as I've been working on things for years and this was new to her. Sometimes those of us who come from overtly bad backgrounds have it easier than people from "good homes." Most families have pathologies, I think, and the less obvious they are, the harder they are to address.

 

And when the owl "hoo-hoos" in the copse of woods a hundred yards from my window, or a thunderstorm awakens me, I don't with for my wife to be next to me; I miss Ann. Oh, my wife's shoulders were hurting and I gladly rubbed her back and shoulders the other day, and we can eat or shop together, and I RESPECT her, but for me it's not like being around anything other than a good friend, and one I generally don't miss. OK, I missed her for the first time I can think of tonight. Heck, in October of last year I asked to move out, to have some distance, and she pleaded "No," because she felt I would not miss her but would be happier.

 

She has made strides in learning how to listen, how to hear how I feel, and tell me how she feels. She has been (and is to a degree now) obsessed with "being pleasing to me." I think that is the (1) conservative christian background and (2) her ex, who was irresponsible (would quit a job if he did not like it, because she was working, etc), left her for another woman who (objectively) is not attractive, and had been telling my wife that, "I don't feel wanted by you, or respected." This is what I had felt, though my wife said, "Well he didn't deserve any respect; you do. Just tell me what to do, how to touch you to make you feel wanted." I wish it worked that way.

 

So here I am. I'm happy being apart. I really don't think my stepson will move out of the house unless forced to do so, and we are paying for his junior college, insurance, gas money and allowance. I don't see my wife ever changing this, and I'm not sure I want to be part of that drama. I also think it unfair for her to have to choose, and if she pushes him out and can in any way blame me for that decision, THAT is a recipe for disaster.

 

My wife, objectively, is attractive and desirable. Subjectively, I am not attracted to her, drawn to her, and until tonight (for a few minutes), have not missed her at all when away in years. She wants to work part time or less and I can't give that to her. Frankly she'd be a great not-working-outside-the-home partner/wife, using her time well. I think she could find a man whose background fits hers more. I won't go back to our church, for instance, but I am going elsewhere. She tends to listen to Jimmy Swaggart, both for preaching and music. Nothing wrong with that, but I tend to listen to Rush, Alistair Begg and Ravi Zacharias. I'm tired of church experiences I find manipulative.

 

For those who are believers, the words of scripture are pretty clear, but the therapist has told me I need to work this out regarding Ann; that if I return to my wife's house because "it is the RIGHT thing to do," but don't believe that, I'm setting things up for failure. He has told us both that we are putting more effort into this than most couples he works with and feels we can have an "A-game" communication and marriage. For my part I have said I am willing to reconcile, but cannot predict how long it will be until I once again cherish and desire her, if ever; I just don't know. Heck, when we suspended the affair, I acceded to the advances my wife had begun making in the hope that the neurochemicals and experiences would stir the emotions and attachment, but they did not.

 

Ann might have nothing to do with me today; I don't know. Ending the affair may have been the best thing to do for her, rather than proceeding with the divorce. Please understand that I knew Ann far longer, and better, than I knew my wife before we wed. We come from similarly dreadful pasts (hers far more dreadful) and have lived with many of the same demons...yet she, especially, is open, giving, grateful...rather than bitter. I say "she, especially," because by objective measures her past is dreadful, not just dark.

 

So if any of you have read this far (HA!), what say you?

 

Have any of you come to a point where your spouse really could no longer "touch" you emotionally, or where it really no longer mattered if he/she and you were together at all, but then made it back to a good place with one another? My individual therapist (PsyD) says that in twenty years of practice, she has never seen that, but that does not mean it is impossible. She thinks, however, that it is fruitless in this case.

 

So...do any of you have a story to tell that says, "Yes, it can work?"

 

Just wondering...feeling my emotions stir as Ann's birthday is in a couple of weeks...crikey, I don't want to screw things up.

 

Floss

[SomedayDig]

Floss...you're all over the map, buddy. You speak in prose discussing your affair with Ann. You do so with the care of a novelist.

 

You are living amongst the unicorns and rainbows. Yet, in reality...they do not exist.

 

In the end, it is truly a simple question: Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or take arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing, defeat them.

(yes, I did that from memory and might not be perfect. I learned it almost 30 years ago)

 

So, do you take arms against the sea of troubles or do you walk with the unicorns?

[Furious]

Wow....you and your wife threw a surprise birthday party for Ann and then Ann repays the favor by sleeping with you.

 

I can see why you're so smitten with Ann, with substance abuse history, no qualms in sleeping with her friend' husband.

 

I can see why your wife does not compare with Ann.

 

I say you go live happily ever after with Ann, you deserve her.

[SarahRose]

i agree that ann sounds like the perfect wife for you. go for it. get the divorce and go with ann and live happily ever after

[2sunny]

You need time on your own to find who you are without any woman.

 

It may take a few years to find yourself in a healthy light.

 

Allowing these women to " define you" is not healthy.

 

If you are hurting someone in order to love another - you need to look at proper order. If you really don't love your wife - end it.

 

And don't go running to Ann the minute you're on your own and divorced.

 

Let time show you who you are - and how YOU feel.

 

Get healthy enough to know how you really feel about YOU.

[anne1707]

I read your OP earlier and it has troubled me since. You had the affair yet all you have talked about is how your wife is trying to change and putting all the work in to save your marriage. What have you done? What are you prepared to do? This is not just about her, it's about you too.

[alexandria35]

I agree with everyone else here. You haven't said one thing about Ann that makes her sound like an attractive prospect for a serious relationship. She's neurotic, has a history of substance, sleeps with her friends husband which makes her disloyal and two faced. Oh she self sabatoges herself too. She could have had really good life long friends in you and your wife who could have walked with her through her tough times but instead she saw fit to destroy that by getting a little mattress time with you. Ann has a ton of issues and she isn't a very good person. You yourself said you never even thought of her that way until she started shamelessly throwing herself at you.

 

I think your wife sounds like a hardworking, self sufficient, stong independant woman and I think that bruised your ego and the only thing that made Ann attractive to you was that she is weak and needy which in turn makes you feel needed and competent. Which is more about you than Ann. Ann could of been any messed up neurotic disloyal backstabbing woman throwing herself at you and you would have responded.

 

I say leave your wife and go live out your little fantasy with broken little Ann. Now that your wife is working on herself and getting some of her more minor issues addressed she will probably have no problem moving on and getting herself a new man and hopefully she finds some better friends too. Stop playing at this fake reconcillation and wasting everyones time.

[Radu]

You put a lot of information and background into your OP ... this is very good because many ppl neglect that.

 

Ann is an idiot. Crying in church, sheds a few tears in your office to make you fall for her [yes, you fell for damsel in distress ... the oldest trick in the book], even though you started having a thing for her.

Ann is a wreck ... a huge wreck.

Your fondest memory is of Christmas shopping with her and her daughter, i'm sure it was quite the small fantasy for her as for a small fraction of time she managed to convince herself that she is normal, forgetting that she screwed her best friend's husband.

When it comes to her, you are still in the fog.

 

About your wife, it was obvious all along she was repressed.

And it's pretty obvious that she lacked communication.

Do you know why she is listening right now to Jimmy Swaggart ?; 'i have sinned my lord'

The fact is that you have right now at home a wife that for her own reasons wants to make it work, to still have a family after this.

It's not a question of hopes/chances/probabilities ... it's a question of what you owe that woman.

You said many times that you were proud of her, and don't want to touch her because you see yourself as dirty.

Has she grilled you about the affair, has she asked for you to divulge information, has she started to experience the uncontrollable porndreams of you and Ann ?

You had a 1st wife that died, a 2nd wife that was a rebound who drained you [financially and emotionally] ... do you want to reach 4th wife too or do you want to give it your best to make it work.

From your post you sound in your 40-50's, don't you think it's time to grow up ?

 

Keep also in mind that your therapist was your IT, she was not advising what's best for your marriage, but what is best [short term] for you.

Her job, is to make you feel better.

 

But as other posters have mentioned, we can't chase unicorns in life.

 

On a personal level, i think it could work ... but you need to help your wife in punishing you.

Ppl who break the law need to be punished, need to suffer consequences.

 

Your wife will have to deal with a lot of stuff, as all BS do.

She will deal with the anger, resentment, hatred, indifference, and the porn movies inside her head where you and Ann are the stars.

She may try to bury this down, through her Christian teachings, but it won't work ... she needs to make you feel sorry for this, and you need to be made to feel sorry for this if you want to have a successfull rest of your life [whatever that is], weather it's with her or some other woman.

 

The Reset button [divorce] is not meant to be abused.

[Radu]

Just occured to me, are you proud of her for being so decisive when she tried to cut you out of the home because she actually pulled the trigger in your place ?

 

Think about it, if you truly are ... it's possible you were/are somewhat of a coward.

[Character Floss]

In some reverse order (no comment on relative importance):

 

I was proud of her for cleaning things out because she has generally, since we've known each other, seemed to be looking for what I might want/how to please me. My chief dislike of her has been that I feel I haven't gotten the chance to know her (my wife), as most of what I have seen are the manifestations of her trying to be who she thinks I want her to be.

 

It's awfully hard to respect that after a while and goes beyond just doing simple extras to make that special someone a bit happier today.

 

So no, it wasn't on the coward issue. I had told her I wanted a divorce and did not expect any reconciliation nor attempt at it before then.

 

Jimmy Swaggart: No, my wife is not listening to JS thinking, "Oh, I have sinned." That is her culture, her upbringing, and once she had an iPod years ago she began downloading his podcasts. She laughs at his condemnation of today's musical style, recalling that he was similarly condemned fifty years ago, and smiles at his adherence to a King James-Only view. Flip side, if someone is a christian, JS points people far more to the work of Jesus Christ than any plan or program we could develop today for self-improvement.

 

My issues: Adroitly noted by many that the focus was not on my failure, my choice, my willing embrace of something hurtful, immoral and plain old wrong. I've pushed the marriage therapist and my wife with this question: Am I such a good manipulator that I have everyone snowed and not paying attention to me? The consensus seems to be that combined with latent selfishness, my biggest contributions may have come from not saying, "No, this is not acceptable. We need to look at re-arranging priorities, or you need to consider what you want." Yes, I brought things up a time or two, but if ignored I simply stopped bringing them up.

 

Wife number two would often spend 10 to 14 hours/day chatting online, sometimes (not always) flirting. I saw it destroying our marriage but was too chicken-$hit to throw her computer (or monitor) out, as I had sometimes considered. While engaged she flirted with an ex in front of our work friends and told me to "go home," and also was given to dirty-dance with strippers at company (not official) parties. Heck, I was never a bedroom cuckold, would not/could not ever think of going there, but I helped set up and accepted an order that made Wife Number Two's habits and desires sacrosanct, and put me in a support role with the house, children, etc.

 

With wife number three, it was in some ways similar, but rather than indulging herself on the computer or watching QVC till 4AM, my wife was helping to build a new program within a hospital. She was diligent, committed, etc., all admirable qualities and traits. So there was no room for any moral "Harumph" as she gave herself to it.

 

As she said to me--but only once--"You make a really good wife."

 

So I will say that when I carried, realistically, 70% of the load at home, and worked as much, etc., and continued the little gifts (whether personal, like massages from me or gassing her van, or impersonal, as in getting her the great keyboard or laptop she wanted and replacing the HDD with an SSD on my own because she wanted it fast)...and did not get something similar in return, after a while I withdrew.

 

If I no longer care about "you," "you" can no longer hurt me. I'll do what I think is best, but really don't care about "you" as a person any longer. That si where I have been for a couple of years.

 

As for Ann, in some ways, well said; in others, I have shown you the worst snippets of a life.

 

Unicorns and rainbows: well per a writer to Anderson Cooper, unicorns fart rainbows. Such is life.

 

My wife speaks/writes in nearly poetic language. I have learned to say, "Wow, that really is a great way of phrasing things, but can you please help me understand what you mean by that?"

 

"I haven't been able to breathe" is more difficult to test and validate (or not) than, "I have been anxious whenever I am around you, fearing to say the wrong thing and make you pull away."

 

Family and making it work: My one retort to that is that I guess I do not see this as a family; to a greater degree I see my wife and her son as a unit, and me as a party to the goings-on. Only recently and after several discussions about it has my wife come to stop saying, of her ex-husband, "When your father left us" or "When he left Tommy and me." No, dear wife, he left you, and he felt it was worth having his relationship with his son interrupted to get away from you.

 

Frankly we had between a half-dozen and dozen discussions on this, and whether indeed he left HER or THEM, and the damage (or lack thereof) created by her casting her ex-husband's divorce, to her son, as "Dad leaving us."

 

Is that healthy? Come on.

 

And my wife has chosen to bypass anger for the most part, seeing it as a secondary emotion to pain. I agree the anger has to be embraced.

 

I'm happy being out of there, and not missing being with anyone, really. I also recognize that my wife and I work together well, communicate better as time goes on, and that she wants me, that she loves me.

 

So I feel wrong/guilty for looking to end a marriage, even with no shared children or assets, when one of the participants, the innocent one in this case, wants to work things out.

 

As for me, if I WANTED TO BE BACK, I WOULD THROW MYSELF WHOLE-HEARTEDLY into doing whatever she wanted. I have offered to install the complete spy-program with GPS on my phone, for instance. That is necessary.

 

For the record, my lack of subjective attraction to my wife is not because I feel dirty. Come on! It's simply that to me, emotionally, she is no different or little different than many other friends to whom I am neither romantically nor sexually attracted. It wouldn't make me feel good bad or indifferent, for me, to see her with another man; it would be like seeing a good friend enter a new relationship, and being happy for her.

 

My ambivalence, my question, really the big issue for me: Has anyone else here gotten to the point where he or she really did not care whether he/she was with his/her spouse...OK, where the other spouse did not matter to him/her personally...where that spouse could neither darken nor brighten your day...where there was no drawing, no sense of the relationship being good specifically because of that other person being who she is...and in spite of all that, come back, somehow, to a place where there was genuine affection, attraction, drawing, a particular gladness at sharing life with that other person?

 

If that is pretty impossible to get from where I am to sharing love which has a genuine emotional component, WHY NOT BE AMBIVALENT? AND, if ambivalent, why be going all-out to re-establish things?

 

I'll take the criticism. I doubt if Ann would even have the slightest interest in me at this point, and will likely never know. I was hoping to find someone who said, "Yup, I felt about my husband/wife like you do...I get it...you'd give your kidney for her but don't have any interest in kissing her...and now, five years later, I love him/her and am glad we worked it out."

 

"Everyone" tells me that doesn't happen, and that done is done, but it seems "wrong" to be done, and that is why I am still in it.

 

Pacem

[frozensprouts]

OP,

 

first, let me address your comment to you wife re: her feeling that her ex husband left her and her son. you say that he left her, and was willing to not have a relationship with his son so her could be rid of her...seriously, what kind of a man would stop seeing his son just so he could divorce his wife? Most dads would do whatever it took to spend time with their kids...divorce or otherwise.

 

secondly..no offense, but you seem to be placing 100% of the blame for your feelings on your wife. When did you first notice these feelings of ambivalence towards her? Was it before or after you met Anne? You say that all you felt was friendship towards anne until she made the first move then all of a sudden you realize you're attracted to her and in love with her? Sounds to me like you were in an emotional affair with her long before that... either that, or you form attachments way, way to easily

 

It really does sound as if you and your wife would be better off apart. It sounds as if she has some minor issues to deal with, and you still have issues too. Move on and get yourself together before you even think of starting up with someone again...

[SomedayDig]

Wow. Dona nobis pacem. I haven't sung that since I was in high school.

 

Floss, I'm sorry to say, but you sound very braggadocios simply due to your prose. Do you think of yourself much better by utilizing verbiage or parlance in telling your story? I mean, who in the f_ck uses the words "adroitly" and "sacrosanct" in one post?! Seriously dude. Don't try to impress us with your terrific grasp of the English language. I get it, though...I mean, it can be difficult to feel so crappy about yourself and the bad things that you've done to your wife that it's easier to speak from some place reserved for Homer or Shakespear. That way it doesn't make the movie of life so real. You're in control of your words and it's quite easy to show your supremacy in a new crowd of people. Just say "Peace" at the end of your post if you truly mean peace. Do you honestly think that most people know "pacem" or are you simply hoping for a collegiate to recognize your word and say "Ohhh...he's sooo smart"?

 

Drop the pretty words. Drop the pretense. Do you WANT to love your wife? Do you WANT to live with her for the rest of your life? Or would you rather smoke screen and fog people on a silly internet forum to make yourself feel better? Because that's kind of like cheating in golf.

[alexandria35]

Well you just spoke a whole lot about nothing much. As I was reading your post I kept thinking 'what in the world does this have to do with anything'?

 

I don't think your marriage is going to make it because I don't think you have the heart of a man who wants to save his marriage. You hurt your wife, you betrayed her, yet you don't appear to have a shred of remorse or regret about that. You sound like a cold dead fish when you speak of your wife. I see no desire on your behalf to really work on the marriage. You are wasting your time and your wife's time too.

[Character Floss]

Someday...hey, this is how I usually speak and this, particularly, is the style in which my wife and I often email: deliberate, precise.

 

Pacem: Should have said, Peace. My sister often closes her emails thus.

 

And no, my wife is not at fault for my lack of feeling, which predates meeting Ann. That goes back to early 2010. At the same time, I will agree that there was an EA with Ann for at least four months before the PA. I just did not look at her "that way."

 

Lack of feeling or better yet withdrawal of attachment: My standard defense mechanism. Been there/done that with others.

 

I'd much rather become re-attached to my wife. That is why I am in the therapy. I am afraid that may not be possible (don't know) or, I am willing to be on the path to likely reconciliation as long as it's on the table that I may never develop that genuine, gut attachment; I will be committed, but it may never most past the point of a choice of will and effort to keep that vow.

 

Take away the 3,000 words, and the above two paragraphs are the real meat of it all.

 

These are my questions: Anybody ever recover from being so detached to their mate?

 

Anybody here reconcile and still be glad they did, or stay in a marriage (particularly without children), even though the commitment was never more than a commitment of the will, and not the heart?

[SomedayDig]

Take away the 3,000 words, and the above two paragraphs are the real meat of it all.

 

These are my questions: Anybody ever recover from being so detached to their mate?

 

Anybody here reconcile and still be glad they did, or stay in a marriage (particularly without children), even though the commitment was never more than a commitment of the will, and not the heart?

 

 

Perfect. Floss, I totally dig the wording and whatnot, man. It's just that this isn't the kind of place to put them. The above is definitely the way to be here. Its clear and concise. I was detached from my exwife (a lifetime ago it seems). I never recovered. I tried for a couple years hoping to get that same feeling I had on our wedding day. That day never came and I had to leave. As for not truly being in love, I guess I don't understand how someone could honestly call that a marriage. It seems more like a business decision. A merger, if you will. And we all know that in the end, a merger usually has a winner and a loser.

[Character Floss]

Thank you for the encouragement. So no falling on my bare bodkin here!

 

My prayer, more than daily, is that I find the heart for her again, and that the heart-ties to Ann fray and disintegrate. Yeah, that is actually what I pray, again and again, and my wife and I spend time together, get dinner or even cook together, share some dessert, work on things around her house together...hoping that in the ordinary common things I find my heart for her.

[Character Floss]

Alexandria...yes, cold fish...that's the point: Since my heart is not there, then the work toward reconciliation comes out of responsibility, taking stock of the the changes that marrying me have made in her life, what it has cost her (forgetting the adultery), even when it was great. It cost her something, because it cost her doing something else, being with someone else.

 

So the desire to reconcile comes out of that, Alexandria, what I owe her for what she has put into this. Some of us are more like that (and sometimes we are great to have in a crisis, because emotions don't grip us). Is that really less honorable? I'd change it if I could.

 

As for remorse...that isn't the point of this rant, but I admit...whether in my own life or when someone does something that affects me, I am an "Ah, $hit, how do I/we fix this?" than dying in guilt or expecting/wanting others to die in guilt. But that's another story.

[alexandria35]

I don't think remorse is just about dying in guilt. Although guilt and remorse are often used as synonyms of each other, I see them as different in some ways. Guilt can be somewhat self absorbed and self pitying. To me remorse is more sincere and empathetic.

 

Your wife made a big mistake in letting you come back before she saw the remorse, and I think the remorse will come, but possibly not soon enough. She should have refused any attempt at reconcillation until it was there because its a crucial part of saving the marriage. I wish she had not let you come back so easily.

[Character Floss]

Alexandria...thank you for the note showing the differences you see.

 

However, she did not let me back/ask me back! It seemed like she might have been willing/wanting to go that route, but I did not think it healthy, nor did the marriage therapist. She does not like the separation because she wonders how we can develop intimacy without spending much time together.

 

I know I don't "get" how much I have hurt her. Even when I truly adored her, if she had had an affair, my reaction would have been, "What is going on in your heart? Are you OK? This seems so out of character." I had a serious GF before the marriage who hooked up with someone, then told me, and rather than being hurt my concern was for her, and why she would do something, was it intentional sabotage, was she OK...

 

I've hurt her, created (UNDESERVED) shame--that is so bad--she has no reason to feel shame, yet she does.

 

She did nothing to deserve my betrayal of her. She did not cause it. Regardless of any situations, it was my choice, not my wife's, and not Ann's.

[Character Floss]

Turn on sarcasm light:

 

Maybe you are right. She doesn't deserve losing someone who cooked for her, tended her son, did most of the cleaning around the house, made sure she and her son always had clean laundry, even when it meant tucking her in bed at 8:30 and not letting her know I'd be up till 11PM to make sure she had the delicates she needed in the morning.

 

She doesn't deserve losing someone who routinely rubber her feet, back and hands, and not as a come on; who made sure she didn't have to be bothere putting gas in her van; who, when she would fall in love with something shiny and new (usually musical instrument, laptop, etc), would research it till what she hoped for was what she would get, and then get it.

 

She doesn't deserve to lose someone who looked after her, insisted she got the rest she needed, found little ways to say, "I love you," works as much outside the house as she does, but has more energy; who routinely prepares the taxes for her family members (and no, that's not my job); who pitches in to help her family with their projects (as she pitched in to help mine!); and yes, who stopped approaching her for sexual intimacy when it seemed to be a burden, primarily due to her schedule (but for the record, whenever we would make love, her reaction was, "Why don't we do this more often?").

 

All I'd like to do is find a way to cherish her again, because I did, and in her heart she cherished me; but in her actions, because of her energy level or not thinking it was important, she often did not show it.

 

And I came to the point where it didn't matter that she didn't show it...but when she woke up and said, "I want to show it," it still didn't matter.

 

I've offered to assume all the marital debt, and some debt that she brought into the marriage as well (about $45,000 total), and not ask her for the keyboards, sax, or any of that, while she made clear she was going to keep the the Big Green Egg and tool-chest she had given me...

 

She makes only a little less than I do, more after taking out the spousal maintenance I pay, so I don't think that is unfair.

 

Guess it struck a nerve being viewed through one dimension.

[anne1707]

I am sorry OP but the more I read of your posts, the more I think you should end this marriage. You show no respect at all for your wife, let alone love. This is no basis for a marriage. You are putting all the blame for your affair on her - completely out of order.

[Character Floss]

Anne,

 

I don't mind ending the marriage. OK, I mind because my wife still loves me and has told me, quote, "Even if I buy a new house, you'll be there, everywhere, everywhere I go or am...there you are...can't you see that?"

 

The only place where I disagree with your assessment is this: The affair is entirely my fault. I don't deny that. I had a choice to make, and I chose to betray her. It does not matter how connected we were or weren't, or why, at the end of the day nobody forced me into the affair.

 

I agree with the lack of respect though. All I've been asking for in therapy (and it hasn't been just me...the therapist was quick to see this) is show me who you (wife) are; I don't want to know who or what you think I want from you. I have been pushing the therapist on the issue of exploring if it is just me, making her this way, but so far, it looks like all her life she's tried to be what she thought others expected her to be...and for me, it SUCKS to be in that relationship.

 

THAT is why I applauded her when she removed all "signs" of me from her house and got rid of my stuff. I thought finally, maybe, just maybe, she is feeling what she is/who she is and acting on it...but she later said it was just an anger reaction and not to be trusted.

 

Go figure.

[Owl]

So...end the marriage.

 

It's that simple...perhaps not easy, but that simple.

 

Tell your wife you're no longer interested in considering a life with her. Tell her that you'll no longer attend marriage counseling, and that the seperation between the two of you needs to be completed and formalized ASAP.

 

I didn't catch if you'd moved out or what, but clearly the two of you no longer should be living together in any fashion.

 

Start the divorce...today. Not rocket science. Doesn't sound like there's children of your own in the mix, so no custody/child support issues. Sounds like your wife's got a good job, so I doubt you're going to be paying her much if anything.

 

Check up for free resources on divorce in your county/state, and go make it happen. The reality is...if you're done, there's nothing your wife can do to make it come back. She needs to know clearly this is how you feel, and that it's time to end it. Today.

 

What's stopping you from going home today and getting this all started?

[Character Floss]

We are not living together. It's now three months apart.

 

As for settlement...I'll gladly take all the marital debt and her pre-marital debt (and will live on the extreme extreme cheap for about four years as this stuff will take, with my other commitments, about 75% of my take-home).

 

What's stopping me? The sense that it is "wrong" to divorce, at least when it is not a mutual decision. I also know that for several years I truly delighted in her and hope (wishful thinking) that can be brought back.

 

On the one hand the marriage therapist says that is possible, and that we are both making such progress...on the other hand, at times I feel like a project for him...the couple that are sticking it out and working on things when most of his clients would not. I told my wife from the beginning of marriage therapy that I am putting my stock/trust in what the therapist is saying based on his experience, not on what my gut tells me.

[findingnemo]

Turn on sarcasm light:

 

Maybe you are right. She doesn't deserve losing someone who cooked for her, tended her son, did most of the cleaning around the house, made sure she and her son always had clean laundry, even when it meant tucking her in bed at 8:30 and not letting her know I'd be up till 11PM to make sure she had the delicates she needed in the morning.

 

She doesn't deserve losing someone who routinely rubber her feet, back and hands, and not as a come on; who made sure she didn't have to be bothere putting gas in her van; who, when she would fall in love with something shiny and new (usually musical instrument, laptop, etc), would research it till what she hoped for was what she would get, and then get it.

 

She doesn't deserve to lose someone who looked after her, insisted she got the rest she needed, found little ways to say, "I love you," works as much outside the house as she does, but has more energy; who routinely prepares the taxes for her family members (and no, that's not my job); who pitches in to help her family with their projects (as she pitched in to help mine!); and yes, who stopped approaching her for sexual intimacy when it seemed to be a burden, primarily due to her schedule (but for the record, whenever we would make love, her reaction was, "Why don't we do this more often?").

 

All I'd like to do is find a way to cherish her again, because I did, and in her heart she cherished me; but in her actions, because of her energy level or not thinking it was important, she often did not show it.

 

And I came to the point where it didn't matter that she didn't show it...but when she woke up and said, "I want to show it," it still didn't matter.

 

I've offered to assume all the marital debt, and some debt that she brought into the marriage as well (about $45,000 total), and not ask her for the keyboards, sax, or any of that, while she made clear she was going to keep the the Big Green Egg and tool-chest she had given me...

 

She makes only a little less than I do, more after taking out the spousal maintenance I pay, so I don't think that is unfair.

 

Guess it struck a nerve being viewed through one dimension.

 

I lost my post to you earlier. I too think you should get a D. Not because you had an A but because you are unhappy generally. I don't think it has much to do with your W. You don't seem to like your life very much. You lost your first W which is a traumatic experience and you may not be over that. You do all these things for your W and she seems to do almost nothing. Of course she loves you. She loves how handy you are. How helpful you are but she isn't "in love" with you. I mean she isn't into sex with you.

 

Reading all your posts, I think you don't listen to your instincts enough. You should. Don't reconcile. Why would you? It seems like you do what is expected of you rather than what you want. Give yourself time to feel, to know what your emotions are.