Robert and Tony...(Re:Paulie's Therapy)

[Paulie]

Here's some more food for thought:

 

I was recently discussing with my therapist how somebody can speak so many words of committment to another person, only to betray them later on. We were, of course, talking about my ex specifically, but also in light of the extremely high rate of relationship casualties nowadays.

 

People say tat they will never leave the other, love them dearly, would die for them, etc, etc.

 

My therapist, who I've mentioned in previous posts, used to be a monk, invoked scripture in telling me that people in general, in relationships of all kinds, are often "betrayed with a kiss." Someone will maintain (verbally of course) that they are committed to us, while the serpent within them remains veiled below the surface (which is why Tony often says that we must remain AWARE and OBSERVANT in our relationships).

 

In Matthew 26:21:

 

The Lord says: "Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me."

 

They were exceedingly sorrowful, and each one of them said "surely, Lord...it is not I."

 

Jesus said unto Peter:

 

"...before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."

 

Peter said unto the Lord:

 

"Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee." Likewise said all the disciples.

 

In 26:41:

 

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

 

---------------------------

 

I have alot more to say on this, but want to see if anybody else picks up on this

 

Paulie

[Taressa]

Hey Paulie,

 

I hope you don't mind if I join in...

 

Do you think that no matter what level of romantic love we achieve, the only person we truly love is ourself? Peter loved his life more than Jesus, Judas loved money or ? (something) more than Jesus...

 

And how do you think we can achieve a greater love, one that will create a love for our mate that equals our love for ourself? I would like something besides a vowed commitment to make me stick unselfishly by my husband someday.

 

I'm a committed Christian and I'm hoping that this pursuit of God (as Robert mentioned), will develop a more true (agape, as Tony said) love.

[Tony T]

Robert is away and will return in a week but I will try to give my take on this.

 

The question you pose is probably the most profound that anyone can ask relative to relationships. Our greatest fear is that love will die and we will be left to agonize. There is no one answer or solution.

 

Feelings are like the seasons. They change often. Even within a day, we can love someone, hate them, be proud of them, be disappointed in them, be jealous of them, be ashamed of them, etc. That's in just ONE day. The seasons of love change. It can only be our hope that they will not change so radically as to render love dead. (In all cases here, I speak of romantic love for a specific person.)

 

The nature of feelings can be likened to the lines on an EKG. Up and down, to varying degrees and varing times. The heart of love hopefully keeps beating, though the points on its EKG are sometimes high, sometimes low and sometimes in between. It is when our EKG flatlines that we may either be resuscitated or pronounced dead. When feelings of love neutralize, yes, they can be brought back to life through skillful intervention. As the heart, love can become weaker or stronger as a result.

 

Words of love can express a persons deepest feelings or they can express what someone thinks the other wants to hear. They can even be an expression of what is expected of them in the absence of an inability to accurately assess exactly how they feel. Words can be meant to satisfy the moment. "Hello, how are you?" How many people say this each day out of habit and expectation rather than as a genuine query about a persons well-being.

 

Words are vibrations of air, no matter how we look at it. Words don't necessarily reflect the feelings of the person uttering them. Anyone can say, "I love you." Actions don't necessarily speak louder than words, although I think they are more credible as a rule. People can put up facades for a long time. Then they break down as we see the real and often frightening part of what we thought was something else. We are hurt, disappointed, disillusioned.

 

I would like to believe that in most cases, words sincerely express what a person is feeling at the moment they are uttered. That doesn't mean that expression will hold true tomorrow. The very nature of truth is evolutionary in nature. If I say today is Friday, that will be true. If I say the same thing tomorrow, I will not be accurate.

 

Fifty years ago, it was true there was no prevention for polio. Five years later, it was not true. Fifty years ago it was true that home computers did not exist. Today, that is a horrific lie.

 

So the very nature of truth is rather tentative. Feelings are far more so. It is even up for debate as to whether we have total control over our emotions. We can be with someone and will that we fall in love with them and fail miserably. We can be with another and set out to absolutely establish no relationship at all and end up madly in love.

 

We must be vigilant, aware and conscious in our relationships because our own intuition and feelings are the most accurate guage of how another feels about us, regardless of what they say or do. Surely, it is our greatest wish to believe someone who pours out great admiration and love for us, particularly if we feel the same way. In this case, we drop our guard, disable our awareness, so the happiness of the day will not be diminished.

 

Because emotions can change, both our's and the other person's, living in the present and enjoying the present is our only option. Thinking about whether one day it will be all over is not an option. One day, our lives will be over. Do we think about this minute by minute?

 

Enjoying a person's sincere profession of love should be our only course. Chosing not to think about the relative impermanence of that or any emotion is OK. Just basking in the love at hand is what we must do. Stretching it out, nurturing it, working at it...that is our job.

 

It is simply the nature of things in the Universe to end. No matter how much we fertilize a plant, water it, sing to it, give it sun and shade, etc., it will one day die. Regardless of how many oil changes we give our car, no matter how many tune ups, changes of belts, blades, parts, etc., one day this car will run no more. All must be enjoyed in the present.

 

Love is no different. And no two people will love with equal depth or passion. One will always love the other more. And we may never know if in the mind of the other isn't the image of a man or woman past who was loved more deeply and who got away, or an image of someone hoped for in the future. There is no way of knowing and so it serves no purpose to be concerned.

 

People tell us they will love us forever, they will never leave us, they love us dearly, they would die for us...all these things may be true in that moment. Or even for a day or a week. Or for parts of some days and not others. But these are auditory endearments reflective of the moment. They are inaccurate on the face because we all die. Nothing is forever. Assuming they mean our lifetime, then they are accurate only for the moment they are uttered.

 

President Nixon swore at his innaguration in January, 1968 to preserve, protect and defend the laws of the land. At that time, he certainly meant it. In 1972, he participated in obstruction of justice in his office, he betrayed those he had pledged to, and resigned less than two years later.

 

We have to understand that trust and love must go together. However, we must trust in the present more than in people...in what is said and done right here and right now. Nobody can know what their future feelings will be...NOBODY. This is just something we have to accept. It's not very romantic. So people work so vigorously to keep love going long enough for the children to get out of school. Some work even harder just getting the love to last long enough to conceive.

 

People do not betray other people. They are merely true to their current feelings. If someone hurts you by withdrawing their love, they have not betrayed you. They have, once again, acted in the very best interests of truth...for remaining with you and not being so disposed of heart, they would be betraying you and themselves by remaining.

 

People do not betray friends. They are merely true to their feelings of larceny, deceit, gossip, whatever may be their essence. We become the targets or victims but they have manifest what truly must be expressed from their soul.

 

Judging people's capacity to be loving, truthful, faithful, etc., because of their dedication to certain religious or moral beliefs can be our biggest mistake. People use religion, ethics, morals as things of convenience mostly. It is easier for certain people to be honest than for others. It is easier for a person with a great deal of money to be honest in his business dealings than someone who is struggling and must do whatever he can to coax a sale in order to survive. It is easier to be truthful if we actually feel as we think we are expected to than if we don't.

 

It is easier to praise God when our lives are fulfilled and to use Him when we are needy.

 

In modern times, it has been advanced that relationships should meet our needs. Our society has become more self centered, selfish. Relationships have ceased to be based on what each can mutually do for the other but rather what each member can get out it. How many personal ads do you see on the Internet, in newspapers and elsewhere where someone sets forth what they are willing to do for the other? So when a relationship ceases to satisfy certain required needs, or more likely, when another appears who seems they could satisfy those needs in a more appealing or exciting way, the relationship ceases.

 

So the words of endearment you hear...listen to them, enjoy them and play along. Live in the present. Enjoy the present in each of its morsels of consciousness.

 

Do not condemn the party who decides to go or assign blame or fault. Leaving is a sincere and often painful action which must take place for the growth of the parties and to find a better home for the love both has to offer. The pain left behind is there to remind us of the power we hold to make the world happier for us or sadder, depending on the decisions we make, the attention we pay, and the investment we are willing to make.

 

Peter did not betray Jesus. He only lied. He only proved his humanity. He only underscored the ability of Jesus to forgive. And he became the first Pope. And Jesus proclaimed he and all his successors would be infallible on matters of faith and morals. Peter's denials took place in moments, but he was faithful to Jesus over the long term.

 

There is no serpent in us. God gave us a free will, not a serpent. There are no devils, only a complete freedom to exercise whatever instincts and predispositions we were given by nature. And we are free to exercise this on a constant basis. We are not tied to any person or any relationship. All religions of the world have provided back doors to get out of committments and promises to others and to God. Accept it. People change, people evolve, people love us today, hate us tomorrow...and worse, some become indifferent to us over time.

 

No matter what happens, nothing changes the fact that what we feel and what we do in the present is the only thing that exists in the world. If we feel loved, we are loved. And that will never change, even though the one bestowing that love may later leave and move on to love others.

 

Love cannot be owned or chained down. But it can move on, find new objects and dance to different music with a new partner.

 

And we can only celebrate because this is its nature.

[Taressa]

Tony,

 

Your answer is a lot to think on; I'll be printing it and taking it home for some weekend thought. One question before I leave, its' brevity, compared to your flowing, well-spoken post makes it appear rather inadequate... just the same, I ask:

 

Can we somehow create or develop love that is more than an emotion, more than a feeling?

 

When I marry, Tony, I'm promising until death... I want to die believing it was a good promise to have kept.

[Tony T]

When I marry, Tony, I'm promising until death... I want to die believing it was a good promise to have kept.

 

Almost every person who marries makes that promise...but circumstances and feelings come between us and our word sometimes. That's what courts are for.

 

A promise is just a very strong hope that something can come to be. But we have to forgive ourselves when for reasons totally beyond our control we are unable to fulfill them...and we must be able to justify that to ourselves.

 

We hope at the time we make the promise it will be forever...but often there comes a time when circumstances simply prevent us from keeping that promise.

 

As a practical matter, any promise to do anything forever is a little bit on the wild side...but very romantic.

[Tony T]

Can we somehow create or develop love that is more than an emotion, more than a feeling?

 

The mind can create anything. But in relationships, effective communication can make that creation bilateral. If the agenda for the love is unilateral, it will not work.

 

Hopefully, over time, mature people develop a love that transcends all the requirements, needs, hopes, fears, and other crap that poisons common love. When a couple achieves a close, companionate love, part friendship, part soul mate, spiritual partner, then you have something that can stand the tests of time.

 

I have seen this on rare occasion in people who have been married forever. They give each other space, make few demands of each other, admire and respect each other, honor each other's feelings, talk, do things together, and depend on each other for their valued opinions.

 

But for younger people, this is not an exciting or adventurous mode of living and not so attractive. So until one is ready for the love you describe, chemicals must rule.

[Paulie]

Tony...Great post, which I will soon have ALOT more to say about (but unfortunately it's Friday afternoon, and I'm going...)

I do want to clarify, however, a very common misconception that many people have regarding the Church's doctrine of infallibility. The doctrine of infallibility DOES NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT mean that all words that the Pope proclaims about faith and God is infallible.

 

The doctrine of infallibility applies only when the Pope chooses to invoke this power. In other words, the Pope's words, (written, or spoken), are ONLY considered to be infallible when he declares such words to be infallible. This power of infallibility, to my knowledge, has only been used (I'm pretty sure, about 90%) about 3 times during the ENTIRE HISTORY of the papacy.

 

One of those times was to declare that the Pope was infallible concerning the existance of the Trinity. One of the others was to declare the fact that The Virgin Mary did indeed ascend, body and soul, into heaven. Pope John Paul II has, in the words of Church scholars, "come within a hairline of infallibility," concerning the protection of the unborn in his recent encyclical, Veritatis Splendor. BUT...he did not declare infallibility, so it cannot be considered infallible.

 

I wasn't sure if Tony understood this, judging by his reference in the awesome post of his above, but felt it to be a major misunderstanding anyway, and wanted to clarify it. Hope I didn't gey too off the track.

 

Have a good weekend, everybody!

 

Paulie

[Paulie]

Is it necessarily "better" to be ready, or desirous of true, compassionate, non-need-based, etc. love than to be ruled by chemicals?

 

It seems to me that alot of the steroid idiots and implant stripper girls at my gym (hope I didn't offend anyone here) are alot happier than me. They could care less if someone else is with their lover, they just seem to have somewhat of a superficial outlook on things, and are pretty much happier than someone like myself, who tends to be alot more spiritual.

 

Spirituality, and realness doesn't necessarily make us happier...in fact, it frequently has the exactly opposite effect. The only advantage that I think I can see for the latter outlook is that it IS REAL.

[Tony T]

Wow, I now know more about the infallibility of the Pope than I could have ever dreamed of. I am eternally beholding to you. Thanks.

[Tony T]

The chemicals probably make you feel much better but don't last nearly as long.

 

As for your buds at the gym with the fake boobs and steriods, how the hell do you know they are so happy??? They may be happy at the gym because working out causes secretions in the brain that can lift the mood. But all people, from time to time, have their trials and tribulations.

 

(If a gal had been flat chested all her life and suddenly got implants, she may be a bit happier for a while. But like the chemical thing, it doesn't last.)

 

I will also say that ignorance and superficiality can be bliss. In the Beatles song, Strawberry Fields, they sing: "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see." I guess maybe the dumber you are, the happier. Get a lobotomy.

 

You might just try using steriods and getting implants and see if you can keep up with your happy gym pals. And send me a picture, PLEASE!!!

[Taressa]

The marriages I see that have lasted seem to have zero passion. I'm trying to form a question in my mind but it's just not coming together... I'll be thinking about this over the weekend but would you please write a bit about grand passion.

 

I believe a person's promise for forever can indeed last beyond any circumstance and I believe that promise is necessary for a couple to last beyond any trial. And I believe also that since love is a thing of emotions, we can hold fast to that promise through the dry spells and, eventually, the emotions of love will return... perhaps not so passionately, but more deeply.

 

But my question is more along the lines of this: Do you believe passion is rooted in selfishness? And is that why passion fades? As though opposing sides of the scale: must passion decrease so that mature, lasting love may increase?

 

Thank you Tony and Paulie for such an interesting conversation and a-d-v-i-C-e, Paulie

 

Have a good weekend; I'll check back in Monday.

[Tony T]

Do you believe passion is rooted in selfishness?

 

Not only passion but love itself is almost 100 percent rooted is selfishness. We do not love another for the feelings we may impart on the beloved but for the feelings we ourselves experience as a result of our association, contact, or relationship with the beloved.

 

We love, essentially, because of the way the other person makes us feel about ourselves and within ourselves. When we fall in love, the concern and caring we feel for the other person is an extention of the way we ourselves feel. Our caring selfishly stems from the fact that we must preserve this love object's favor in whatever fashion we must in order for this person to remain in our proximity...that our good feelings will continue.

 

No matter what words we use or what other means we may try to employ, we can never, ever for even a second transmit an understanding of the love we feel for someone to the object of that love. Unless there is some degree of mutuality, therefore, such passionate love is in lots of trouble.

 

Mutuality does come into play, but only to the extent that what we do for the beloved simply accentuates and improves the overall love affair and preserves it for us. I do believe in altruism, but not pure altruism. Even the most purely altruistic act is for the benefit of the giver. Mother Theresa got good feelings and assured her place in the heavens by the work she did for the poor.

 

When a person ceases to have those positive feelings in the presence of another or when someone else comes along who renews the old fellings we had originally, a split occurs. Reconciliation is usually a trick of the mind remembering the good feelings from times past and longing to have them restored.

 

And is that why passion fades?

 

Passion fades because we crave newness. This is something particularly characteristic of the American culture. We are subliminally programmed from birth to want new, improved breakfast cereal, cold drinks, etc. Marketers struggle constantly to make things taste better, cook faster, and come with some sort of prize. Further, our culture has been programmed to judge things by how fast they are acquired...rather than the quality. Forty years ago, it was not unusual to wait 45 minutes or so in a restaurant for a meal to be cooked. Today, that wait time would cause a major catastophy.

 

On those rare ocassions when partners can accept each other totally and completely as they are, a relationship can last a lifetime. They have no expectations or demands for passion...or rather they have redefined passion and the longing for true love and the kind of stability that comes from a deep trust nurtured over time. It is truly a struggle to reach this point, particularly for couples who experienced chemical passion in the beginning and who became addicted to it and long for it. This is why there are affairs. Infidelity causes the body to secrete all kinds of chemicals, including adrenaline, which makes such encounters a drug-induced high.

 

As though opposing sides of the scale: must passion decrease so that mature, lasting love may increase?

 

Not necessarily, but as a practical matter it almost always does. It is just the nature of matter. Age diminishes the potency of everything. Milk goes sour. Eggs get rotten. Pharmaceuticals have a half life on average of one to two years. People themselves age and their physical and mental abilities diminish along the way.

 

It may depend on your definition of passion. But the commonly accepted definition attendent to newness and constancy of contact, by its very nature, cannot last. If it does, it would be the stuff of a circus freak show. I'm not really sure if this would be good anyway. I think mature love is far more realistic, far more stable, far more predictable, far less jealous or demanding, etc., and therefore far more apt to last a lifetime.

 

There is an old saying, "The brighter the light, the darker the shadow." The intensity of a relationship often dictates just how dark its lows will be.

 

I think that friendships, romances, etc. that have enormous passion and intensity at the outset, unless the parties are of abnormal maturity, are simply doomed by virtue of the partners' inability to handle the component bundle of emotions. With expectations and emotions running so high, such passion becomes a delicate high wire act vulnerable to the most mild gust of troubled winds.

 

This type of passion can also be very blinding and create an incredible let-down for someone when they sober from this euphoric stupor.

 

YOU WRITE: "I believe a person's promise for forever can indeed last beyond any circumstance and I believe that promise is necessary for a couple to last beyond any trial"

 

It is the intention of every person that makes this promise to keep it. But there is not one single person who is certain how emotions will play out. And as we have discussed in the selfishness issue, when you are dealing with two people there is a fifty-fifty chance that one will not be willing to endure a relationship that for whatever reason has ceased to be pleasing or fulfilling to them...often leaving the person who aimed to keep that promise all alone.

[Tony T]

Following is a link to a brief current article I stumbled across on the subject you have brought up. It seems to bring up some pretty good points and is a fast read. You may be enlightened a bit by it.

 

Copy the following link and paste it into your browser:

 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/225669.asp

 

Hope you enjoy!!!

[Taressa]

Love drawn from emotions

 

vs.

 

Love given from the will

[Robert]

I was recently discussing with my therapist how somebody can speak so many words of committment to another person, only to betray them later on.

Assuming we are talking about Westerners, bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of people role play. For example, a young father might ask himself how a father would respond to a particular discipline issue. Based on that mental image of a father, he so responds. What I am saying is that very rarely are Westerners sincere.

 

To be sincere means to actually know one's own thoughts on the matter and to have a corresponding external action. For those of us living in an overstimulated society, knowing oneself is a challenge.

 

I know of people who have explicitly advised someone to say this or that to be romantic. Which is to say, that imitating loving behavior, for Americans especially, is condsidered good form. It nevers seems to occur to people that imitation is not the real thing.

 

I personally know of a woman who got quite offended when her husband hand made an anniversary card. She felt offended that he didn't get a store brought card with the usual sentiments composed by a stranger.

 

Such fakes bail out when the road gets less than rosy!

[Robert]

Do you think that no matter what level of romantic love we achieve, the only person we truly love is ourself?

Lets separate variables first. Romance deals with psychology and is not necessarily related to true love which is spiritual. The first is of the mind and the later is of the soul (heart).

 

What seems romantic is conditioned in us by what we are exposed to in our culture. Its the games we play with each other, although, one can be sincere.

 

An Orthodox Jewess will not touch her boyfriend before marriage. When he proposes to her she might clap her hands and come to within an inch and blow him a kiss - she will not touch him. Extremely romantic - if you understand. Otherwise, just plain weird.

 

Romance can surround true love and be wonderful and enduring. Romance without true love is hollow and deceptive, bound to failure and creating wounds. Such "lovers" are like time bombs waiting to go off and hurt the innocent.

 

Love, as meant by Christ, is a spiritual matter and is not related to psychology at all. This is why psychologist are pathetic failures when trying to help people with relationships of the heart. They are applying the wrong science.

And how do you think we can achieve a greater love, one that will create a love for our mate that equals our love for ourself? I would like something besides a vowed commitment to make me stick unselfishly by my husband someday.

One cannot love someone else more than they love themselves, its a contradiction by terms. To love is to give of oneself, can the expression sincerely be less than the gift!

 

Love cannot be created. In the world of spirituality, love is in our hearts to the extent that we pursue goodness. Loving people have this capacity to love long before they meet someone to give that love to.

 

Long before you marry, your capacity to love should be developed (no contradiction here with the previous paragraph!). If you cannot name a dozen people whom you love fervently - perhaps you are not ready for marriage! Certainly, such a person is not a deep lover.

 

True enduring love comes from God and is God's gift to us for living according to our conscience. This subject is covered in the theology of grace.

[Robert]

During my first read of Tony's reply I felt that if this is true then I want nothing to do with love. It is depressing to think of love being so fickle. Thankfully, it doesn't have to be.

The question you pose is probably the most profound that anyone can ask relative to relationships. Our greatest fear is that love will die and we will be left to agonize.

Experienced lovers, those who love from the heart, know that love and agony cannot be separated.

 

I have no fear of my love dying. I know it cannot die because God is love and God is all powerful. Nothing is more powerful than God. My love, God's presence within me, cannot be muted by anyone or any fear. Only personal sin can drive God out of my heart.

 

Feelings are like the seasons. They change often. Even within a day, we can love someone, hate them, be proud of them, be disappointed in them, be jealous of them, be ashamed of them, etc.

This is only true for superficial people who have no depth of being. They live only life at the psychological or physical level. In spiritual language, they are called the living dead.

When feelings of love neutralize, yes, they can be brought back to life through skillful intervention. As the heart, love can become weaker or stronger as a result.

Statistics say otherwise. I have no current numbers. But about a decade ago marriage counselors had much higher divorce rates than the average population. Couples with a prayer life and an active involvement in religious worship had nearly zero divorce rate! Love, true love, is a matter of the heart and not of the mind. Therefore, it is a matter for the science of spirituality and not of psychology.

 

I would like to believe that in most cases, words sincerely express what a person is feeling at the moment they are uttered. That doesn't mean that expression will hold true tomorrow. The very nature of truth is evolutionary in nature. If I say today is Friday, that will be true. If I say the same thing tomorrow, I will not be accurate.

If its this fickle why bother embracing it. I'd rather laught it off than get involved.

So the very nature of truth is rather tentative.

Truth is eternal or it is not truth, merely something that was misidentified. To say otherwise is to confuse terms. For instance, physics isn't a truth its a theorem and explanation of reality as observed under certain conditions. Never is it considered truth.

We must be vigilant, aware and conscious in our relationships because our own intuition and feelings are the most accurate guage of how another feels about us, regardless of what they say or do.

Very perceptive. Although, I prefer not to judge and instead just take people at face value.

 

Surely, it is our greatest wish to believe someone who pours out great admiration and love for us, particularly if we feel the same way.

Not so sure in my case. I think I know myself well enough to be almost indifferent to someone's praise of me.

Because emotions can change, both our's and the other person's, living in the present and enjoying the present is our only option.

I don'tlive by emotions and wouldn't recommend it. I prefer to live by my heart and be true to it.

One day, our lives will be over. Do we think about this minute by minute?

I am concious of it at all times. The first thing we taught our daughter was that she was going to die. Life without sight of death is an out of balanced life.

 

I remember when my daughter was in second grade, she was sitting in the couch when I came home from work looking rather psensive. I asked, what's up? Oh, I was just thinking of the kids in my class and trying to figure out why they fight so much over silly stuff. What did you conclude?, i asked. She said, their problem is that they don't know they are going to die. Otherwise, they would take better care of each other and not be so willing to hurt one another over rumors and games adn stuff.

 

Remember, second grade. Very happy child.

Just basking in the love at hand is what we must do. Stretching it out, nurturing it, working at it...that is our job.

No thanks - not the least bit appealing.

 

Love is no different. And no two people will love with equal depth or passion. One will always love the other more. .... There is no way of knowing and so it serves no purpose to be concerned.

It is one of my primary concerns to make sure I am sincere. That my innermost thoughts and feeling match my external expressions. I was raised to consider it a grave crime to deceive others by neglecting my own effort to be sincere. When I tell a person I love them - its for eternity. They have my word for it. I have my life's experience to back it up.

They are inaccurate on the face because we all die. Nothing is forever.

Our souls, our innermost beings, live forever. My love is eternal, so long as I pursue Christ.

We have to understand that trust and love must go together. However, we must trust in the present more than in people...in what is said and done right here and right now.

Can I trust that its only transitory and therefore reject the whole thing? Why bother with false transitory sentiments - so I can get laid? I rather not play the game, life is too precious.

 

People do not betray other people. They are merely true to their current feelings. If someone hurts you by withdrawing their love, they have not betrayed you. They have, once again, acted in the very best interests of truth...for remaining with you and not being so disposed of heart, they would be betraying you and themselves by remaining.

Do not give your body to such people. They are not worthy of it. Love them, but don't become entangled with them. Be kind to them and enjoy their humor or whatever. Soon they will be gone with the shifting of the winds.

 

Judging people's capacity to be loving, truthful, faithful, etc., because of their dedication to certain religious or moral beliefs can be our biggest mistake.

Correct, dedication is not a mark of deep spirituality. Actually, its the other way around. Christ said; "You will know they are Christians by their love." Meaning that all sorts of people will appear religious but only they who are sincere permanent lovers are actually Christians. They others aren't - at least not yet.

People use religion, ethics, morals as things of convenience mostly.

People also, mostly, use science to make money. Doesn't make real science any less valid.

In modern times, it has been advanced that relationships should meet our needs. Our society has become more self centered, selfish. Relationships have ceased to be based on what each can mutually do for the other but rather what each member can get out it. How many personal ads do you see on the Internet, in newspapers and elsewhere where someone sets forth what they are willing to do for the other? So when a relationship ceases to satisfy certain required needs, or more likely, when another appears who seems they could satisfy those needs in a more appealing or exciting way, the relationship ceases. So the words of endearment you hear...listen to them, enjoy them and play along. Live in the present. Enjoy the present in each of its morsels of consciousness.

This is so pathetically sad sad sad. Why bother!

All religions of the world have provided back doors to get out of committments and promises to others and to God. Accept it.

Not true.

People change, people evolve, people love us today, hate us tomorrow...and worse, some become indifferent to us over time.

It dosen't have to be this way. It wasn't always the norm. Today it is the norm. We do have to choose what type of person we want to be.

If we feel loved, we are loved. And that will never change, even though the one bestowing that love may later leave and move on to love others.

A pedophile can make a lonely child feel loved! It isn't loved its exploited!

 

Love cannot be owned or chained down. But it can move on, find new objects and dance to different music with a new partner.

This statement is a capitulation by psychologist who have given up trying to discover where true permanent love comes from. Since the "science" of psychology couldn't get a grip on it, and charge you for it, its declared not to exist.

[Tony T]

No, romantic love doesn't have to be fickle, but it often is. If it wasn't, there would be no need for this forum.

 

I don't know what your concept of romantic love is, but I do admire your incredible optimism regarding it.

 

Now, I must say that if you are correct in your post...and I am the first to wish and hope you are absolutely accurate...I think we must presuppose that most people never experience true, romantic love. I say this because those who have experienced it, or mistook their feelings for romantic love, also experienced its ups and downs, its ebb and flow, and often its disappearance.

 

You are one of the truly lucky ones who, for your own personal self, has found a dedicated mate and a deeper meaning to all of this.

 

I agree with everything you have said, as it would apply to someone of your spiritual evolution. But, unfortunately, most on this planet will never reach your level of consciousness and spirituality and therefore must deal with love as it appears, superficially, beginning in adolesence.

[D]

Reading what you have wrote as well as Tony's response, brings tears to my eyes.

 

I understand the pureness of a love so grand within oneself as well as withing two people.

 

This is the level that I want to achieve. This is the level that I am trying to achive. I believe in myself and my spirituality to this depth. I sometimes find it very hard to open myself up and just let my spirituality ( heart ) take over.

 

Maybe I am superficial, for listening to my mind and my gut feeling, which causes everyone to have tendencies to ignore your heart ( spirituality). Out of 100 im sure most christians "consider" themselves to be spiritual, and I am sure the percentage is well over 75% of whom actually are just as superficial and follow there minds, and gut feeling instead of their spirituality.

 

I agree with your post 100%.

 

During my first read of Tony's reply I felt that if this is true then I want nothing to do with love. It is depressing to think of love being so fickle. Thankfully, it doesn't have to be.

 

Experienced lovers, those who love from the heart, know that love and agony cannot be separated.

 

I have no fear of my love dying. I know it cannot die because God is love and God is all powerful. Nothing is more powerful than God. My love, God's presence within me, cannot be muted by anyone or any fear. Only personal sin can drive God out of my heart. This is only true for superficial people who have no depth of being. They live only life at the psychological or physical level. In spiritual language, they are called the living dead. Statistics say otherwise. I have no current numbers. But about a decade ago marriage counselors had much higher divorce rates than the average population. Couples with a prayer life and an active involvement in religious worship had nearly zero divorce rate! Love, true love, is a matter of the heart and not of the mind. Therefore, it is a matter for the science of spirituality and not of psychology. If its this fickle why bother embracing it. I'd rather laught it off than get involved. Truth is eternal or it is not truth, merely something that was misidentified. To say otherwise is to confuse terms. For instance, physics isn't a truth its a theorem and explanation of reality as observed under certain conditions. Never is it considered truth. Very perceptive. Although, I prefer not to judge and instead just take people at face value.

 

Not so sure in my case. I think I know myself well enough to be almost indifferent to someone's praise of me. I don'tlive by emotions and wouldn't recommend it. I prefer to live by my heart and be true to it. I am concious of it at all times. The first thing we taught our daughter was that she was going to die. Life without sight of death is an out of balanced life. I remember when my daughter was in second grade, she was sitting in the couch when I came home from work looking rather psensive. I asked, what's up? Oh, I was just thinking of the kids in my class and trying to figure out why they fight so much over silly stuff. What did you conclude?, i asked. She said, their problem is that they don't know they are going to die. Otherwise, they would take better care of each other and not be so willing to hurt one another over rumors and games adn stuff. Remember, second grade. Very happy child.

 

No thanks - not the least bit appealing.

 

It is one of my primary concerns to make sure I am sincere. That my innermost thoughts and feeling match my external expressions. I was raised to consider it a grave crime to deceive others by neglecting my own effort to be sincere. When I tell a person I love them - its for eternity. They have my word for it. I have my life's experience to back it up. Our souls, our innermost beings, live forever. My love is eternal, so long as I pursue Christ.

 

Can I trust that its only transitory and therefore reject the whole thing? Why bother with false transitory sentiments - so I can get laid? I rather not play the game, life is too precious.

 

Do not give your body to such people. They are not worthy of it. Love them, but don't become entangled with them. Be kind to them and enjoy their humor or whatever. Soon they will be gone with the shifting of the winds. Correct, dedication is not a mark of deep spirituality. Actually, its the other way around. Christ said; "You will know they are Christians by their love." Meaning that all sorts of people will appear religious but only they who are sincere permanent lovers are actually Christians. They others aren't - at least not yet. People also, mostly, use science to make money. Doesn't make real science any less valid.

 

This is so pathetically sad sad sad. Why bother! Not true. It dosen't have to be this way. It wasn't always the norm. Today it is the norm. We do have to choose what type of person we want to be. A pedophile can make a lonely child feel loved! It isn't loved its exploited! This statement is a capitulation by psychologist who have given up trying to discover where true permanent love comes from. Since the "science" of psychology couldn't get a grip on it, and charge you for it, its declared not to exist.