anyone know anything about bipolar disorder?

[wwwjd]

as hard as it is, I do think tough love is the only thing you can do for him AND yourself. YOU CAN'T FIX HIM. You can throw all the love and life jackets you want to him swimming out there, until you are completely emotionally and mentally drained, and NOTHING will ever come out of it. He has to decide to change something. You shouldn't hang out waiting for him to get better because he probably won't, and they you die lonely having wasted your life on him.

 

It's tough, but sometimes cutting away is the best option for everyone.

 

It might even be the ticket to him straitening up a little.... suddenly knowing you are SERIOUSLY no longer there for him to dump on, or rely on, or feel your love.

You might be doing him a favor moving on.

[TaraMaiden]

I would also like to add that he has said "no one can stand to be around me"

& "people always abandon him"

 

That's why I don't really want to abandon him.

I know I gotta look out for myself above all but, maybe that's an opening to help him?

No, it isn't.

It's the gold-edged, embossed 4-sheet laminated card glossy invitation to his 'pity-me' party....

Because first of all, he has to recognise and acknowledge, for himself, quite of his own free will - that a psychiatric condition actually exists.

And when he fully acknowledges that, he then has to start the impulse to get treatment.

You can try to 'help' him all you want - but the big problem with bipolar people is that they don't see it as a medical condition, as such.

Because when they're on a high - there's nothing wrong with them.

But when they're on a low - nobody can help them.

[dsw31]

Tara & wwwjd,

 

Truth hurts! Thank you guys soooo very much!

 

It makes me incredibly sad knowing there is nothing I can do about it

[dsw31]

I just had my own little spending spree...

 

I feel so bummed out today - especially after hearing that there's probably no hope for a healthy reconciliiation with my ex.

 

Just bought myself a beautiful diamond necklace, knowing I shouldn't & can barely afford it.

(I shop when I get depressed)

 

Which brings me back to what I asked Tara...

 

Do you think everyone has a mild variation of this disorder?

(probably not but just curious as to what that meant?)

 

Oh yeah...Downtown is going to be participating in this thread.I can't wait!!

Edited May 8, 2012 by dsw31

[GardenDiva]

As they say, do you want a relationship or a project?

[GardenDiva]

I just had my own little spending spree...

 

I feel so bummed out today - especially after hearing that there's probably no hope for a healthy reconciliiation with my ex.

 

Just bought myself a beautiful diamond necklace, knowing I shouldn't & can barely afford it.

(I shop when I get depressed)

 

Which brings me back to what I asked Tara...

 

Do you think everyone has a mild variation of this disorder?

(probably not but just curious as to what that meant?)

 

Oh yeah...Downtown is going to be participating in this thread.I can't wait!!

 

Also, if I may say one other little thing on this. Can you return the necklace? Because in my book going in debt is as bad as being with the wrong person. Why add insult to injury here? You're only hurting yourself by buying something you can't afford.

[dsw31]

Thanks Garden diva,

 

I won't be in debt.I just know I should be spending my money more wisely.

I payed cash for it & have 30 days to return it, if I change my mind.

[GardenDiva]

Thanks Garden diva,

 

I won't be in debt.I just know I should be spending my money more wisely.

I payed cash for it & have 30 days to return it, if I change my mind.

 

Oh ok. No problem. I just would hate to see you get in financial trouble on top of having a broken heart, you know? You should return it and look at the exact necklace in a faux version! I'm not kidding. You can't tell the difference.

[Downtown]

Anyone know anything about bipolar disorder?

DSW, I cannot tell you what disorder your exBF has. I can tell you, however, that the behaviors you describe include traits of both BPD and bipolar disorder. Although these two disorders are separate and distinct, it is common for a person suffering from one to also have strong traits of the other disorder too. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults (pub. 2008) found that about 25% of BPD sufferers also have the bipolar disorder. And it found that roughly a third of bipolar sufferers also have BPD.

 

I am not a psychologist. Rather I am just a man who is sharing his experiences after living with a BPDer exW for 15 years and taking care of a bipolar foster son for much longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found nine clear differences between the two disorders.

 

One difference is that the mood swings are on two very different spectra having different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between mania and depression, a BPDer flips back and forth between loving you and hating you. Significantly, you've described occurrences of both types of swings.

 

A second difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days.

 

A third difference is seen in duration. As you correctly observed above, bipolar moods typically last a week or two but BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). These short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

 

A fourth difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts.

 

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. Hence, to the extent you exBF has stronger BPD traits than bipolar traits, he will be much harder to treat. Indeed, if he has strong BPD traits, it is very unlikely he will have the self awareness and ego strength to stay in treatment long enough to make a difference.

 

A sixth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic or depressed person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of very hateful, spiteful behavior. In contrast, a bipolar sufferer in the depressed stage typically wants to stay in bed because he has little motivation.

 

A seventh difference is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which is consistent with your description. Specifically, you mention that his anger is easily triggered by "nothing" -- i.e., by minor inconsequential events and harmless comments. This easy triggering of rage is one of the hallmarks of BPDers. In contrast, a person suffering only from bipolar disorder does not carry around an enormous amount of rage that is easily triggered. This deep anger therefore is a BPD trait, not a bipolar trait.

 

An eight difference is that, unlike bipolar, BPD has the reputation of making the spouses and partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, of the several dozen mental disorders listed in the diagnostic manual, BPD is the ONLY ONE that is notorious for making the non-disordered partners feel like they may be going crazy. I mention this because, in your other threads, you have expressed that concern.

 

Finally, a ninth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. I therefore am surprised that, if your exBF is a BPDer, you mentioned nothing about his inability to trust.

 

If he has that problem, DSW, it would have shown up in jealousy and in controlling behavior intended to prevent you from abandoning him. It also would have been apparent in his giving you an endless series of tests of your loyalty -- and his inability to truly believe that you love him. Due to self loathing, a BPDer does not believe anyone can really love him. Hence, the more you do to prove your love, the more insistent he will become that you do not love him.

 

Sadly, this lack of trust -- if it applies to your exBF -- means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Not even a friendship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

[GardenDiva]

Very interesting post Downtown. The only thing I wanted to say is that since so many "crossover" so to speak, as you pointed out in your insightful post, it's hard to definitively really say whether a person is one thing or another based on a particular trait. Am I making sense?

[dsw31]

Wonderful insight Downtown!

 

Thank you so much for taking time out for me! I can't thank you enough!

 

I'm assuming my ex possibly has both BPD & Bipolar disorder then.

 

I forgot to mention that he didn't trust me but...for good reason.

(I cheated on him in the beginning of our relationship)

 

I wrote 2 other threads explaining a little better what has happened with us

 

One is called "I just rebounded! Help me stay nc with my ex"

 

The other is called "I just broke nc...this is so intense!"

 

I am a little ashamed of these posts but, it would be great if you had a minute to see if his behavior is still considered BPD & or Bipolar after reading those.

 

Again...I can't thank you enought Downtown.This information is priceless!!

[GardenDiva]

DSW, I haven't read your other posts at this point but I do have a question. Why does it matter if this person has some kind of disorder or another if you're incompatible? Will knowing this change anything? I don't know how old you are but I hope you don't waste years of your life on someone like this as I did with my ex for 9 years.

[dsw31]

DSW, I haven't read your other posts at this point but I do have a question. Why does it matter if this person has some kind of disorder or another if you're incompatible? Will knowing this change anything? I don't know how old you are but I hope you don't waste years of your life on someone like this as I did with my ex for 9 years.

 

I'm just thristy for knowledge.

It does help to think maybe this didn't work out because of a mental illness or a disorder.I think I have some kind of disorder too so, I'm just trying to find out as much as I can.

 

If you read those posts you'll see that my ex has made me a nutcase!

[GardenDiva]

Ok, yes I understand. I guess on some level it could help to know that there's a disorder involved but for me it didn't really matter. The bottom line is that we were incompatible. I'll look at your other posts though. But you can't let anyone make you a nutcase without your permission, you know?

[Downtown]

Since so many "crossover" so to speak ...it's hard to definitively really say whether a person is one thing or another based on a particular trait. Am I making sense?

Diva, if the traits are sufficiently strong and persistent, a professional can definitively say whether a person has BPD or Bipolar -- or both. With BPD, however, this determination would not be made "based on a particular trait." Rather, it would be made based on the presence of at least five of the nine BPD traits.

 

It is helpful to keep in mind that, unlike Bipolar, BPD is NOT a disease. Rather -- like all other personality disorders -- it is only a collection of dysfunctional behavioral traits (technically, called "a syndrome"). The reason that this is so confusing is that, in every field of the medical sciences, "disorder" means disease. In psychiatry, this is not the case for PDs because no disease has yet been identified that causes any of the ten PDs. Hence, in psychiatry, a "personality disorder" like BPD is nothing more than a collection of symptoms.

[GardenDiva]

Diva, if the traits are sufficiently strong and persistent, a professional can definitively say whether a person has BPD or Bipolar -- or both. With BPD, however, this determination would not be made "based on a particular trait." Rather, it would be made based on the presence of at least five of the nine BPD traits.

 

It is helpful to keep in mind that, unlike Bipolar, BPD is NOT a disease. Rather -- like all other personality disorders -- it is only a collection of dysfunctional behavioral traits (technically, called "a syndrome"). The reason that this is so confusing is that, in every field of the medical sciences, "disorder" means disease. In psychiatry, this is not the case for PDs because no disease has yet been identified that causes any of the ten PDs. Hence, in psychiatry, a "personality disorder" like BPD is nothing more than a collection of symptoms.

 

Wow, interesting. Thanks, for the clarification Downtown. It really is confusing. I just know I've been around it, lived with it and recognize it now. Either way, these people are not easy to deal with if you're not a patient person. And I'm not.

 

So what would you say makes it a "disorder" per se? I mean why couldn't it just be part of their personality make-up like a sense of humor or a talent for singing, for example?

[wwwjd]

FYI I went as far as VISITING her shrink myself, to ask him what the best way for me to deal with her was. I paid $100 for him to listen to me tell HIM what I think I should do, but he would not discuss anything specific - and certainly couldn't talk about other patients. First and last time I EVER visited a therapist - not even for me - and it was completely unhelpful to know how to deal with her. Waste of money.

[GardenDiva]

FYI I went as far as VISITING her shrink myself, to ask him what the best way for me to deal with her was. I paid $100 for him to listen to me tell HIM what I think I should do, but he would not discuss anything specific - and certainly couldn't talk about other patients. First and last time I EVER visited a therapist - not even for me - and it was completely unhelpful to know how to deal with her. Waste of money.

 

Hate to say this but I agree 100%..you'd be better off buying more diamonds than seeing a shrink!

[Downtown]

So what would you say makes it a "disorder" per se? I mean why couldn't it just be part of their personality make-up like a sense of humor or a talent for singing, for example?

Diva, because BPD is just a set of symptoms, you are absolutely correct -- it is a "part of the personality make-up like a sense of humor...." As I said, BPD traits are NOT a disease. That is, BPD is not something (like Chickenpox) that you "have" or "do not have." Instead, BPD traits are something we all have to some degree.

 

This is why, like all the other PDs, BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder." This means that BPD traits are simply symptoms -- like muscle aches and fever -- that we all occasionally have. Hence, the difference between BPDers and Nons is not in kind but, rather, only in degree.

 

The issue, then, is NOT whether DSW's exBF has such traits. Of course he does. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are healthy. The traits become a problem only when -- as may have occurred with the exBF -- they are strong enough to distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. When that happens, we misread people and over-react -- with the result that we cannot sustain long term attachments.

 

To answer your question, then, this set of behavioral symptoms is called a "disorder" because the symptoms are so strong and persistent as to be dysfunctional. At low levels, the symptoms are not dysfunctional. On the contrary, they are essential to our survival in childhood and thus arise from primitive defenses that we all rely on heavily in childhood -- and occasionally throughout our adulthood.

 

Black-white thinking, for example, will save your life if, when you are walking in a crosswalk, you suddenly look up to see a truck bearing down on you. B-W thinking will save you by momentarily "crippling" your mind, allowing you to think ONLY "jump left" or "jump right." At a strong and persistent level, however, this very same B-W thinking will destroy your ability to sustain close long-term relationships.

[Downtown]

FYI I went as far as VISITING her shrink myself, to ask him what the best way for me to deal with her was. I paid $100 for him to listen to me tell HIM what I think I should do, but he would not discuss anything specific - and certainly couldn't talk about other patients. First and last time I EVER visited a therapist - not even for me - and it was completely unhelpful to know how to deal with her. Waste of money.

WWWJD, you make an excellent point. For anyone married to an abusive angry spouse, relying on HER psychiatrist to give you a diagnosis likely will be a disastrous course of action. I say this, based on my own experience, for three reasons.

 

First, psychiatrists may tell you absolutely nothing. Because BPDers generally are excellent actors, it is a cakewalk for them to hide their BPD traits during a 50-minute session held only once a week. It therefore may take a psychiatrist two years to see the dysfunctional behavior you see all week long -- and it is highly unlikely a BPDer will remain in therapy that long (in the unlikely event you persuade her to even start).

 

Yet, even assuming that the psych has sufficient time to identify a BPDer's disorder, it is very unlikely he will ever tell you. Therapists are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her spouse -- the true diagnosis. Giving her the name of her disorder almost certainly will result in her immediately quitting therapy. And, in the unlikely event she stays in therapy, telling her may cause her behavior to become WORSE, not better (by giving her a new identity as "the BPDer").

 

Moreover, therapists know that listing the diagnosis as "BPD" likely means insurance companies will refuse to cover it. It therefore is common for the "diagnosis" to be listed, instead, as one of the side effects or comorbid disorders, such as PTSD, depression, anxiety, or adult ADHD -- all of which are covered by insurance.

 

Remember, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. Like an attorney, he is ethically bound to protect his sick client -- even if you occasionally attend the sessions together with your W. Hence, relying on her therapist's advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney's advice during a divorce. This is why I encourage the spouses and partners of BPDer's to see their OWN psychologist -- for a visit or two -- to obtain a candid professional opinion.

 

I am sensitive to this withholding of BPD information because, for 15 years, I took my unstable, abusive exW to weekly sessions with six different psychologists (and two MCs) -- at a cost of over $200,000. Significantly, NOT ONE of them ever told me the name of her disorder even though I sometimes attended the sessions with her. Instead, they followed the usual practice of using code words and talking about the Axis I disorders that are covered by insurance.

 

For example, the last psychologist -- whom my exW saw weekly for five years -- always said "I don't believe labels are useful" whenever I would ask for a diagnosis. At the end of that five years, when I was angry and thus very insistent on being told exactly what was wrong with my exW, this "no labels" psych reluctantly conceded that she has a "thought disorder." Duhh. Well, of course, that is exactly what BPD is!

 

Moreover, the BPD books I've bought all read like a biography of my exW's life. She exhibits all nine BPD traits very strongly and, for many years, had been sexually abused by her own father. At age 13, when she was strong enough to fight him off, he started beating her regularly. Significantly, my experience with psychologists is very common, as I've found when communicating with hundreds of other "Nons" like me at the BPD forums.

Second, being able to spot BPD red flags is an important skill. Even if psychiatrists could be relied upon to be candid with you, they are never around when you need them the most -- when looking for a suitable mate. Significantly, anyone on this forum who has tolerated an abusive spouse for more than a year is at GREAT RISK of leaving that abuser only to run into the arms of another one just like him. This is why so many of the folks complaining about abusive partners on this forum also complain that their ex-partners had been abusive too.

 

It therefore is important that abused partners learn how to spot all nine BPD traits so that, when they escape the toxic relationship, they won't keep repeating the same mistake over and over. Because we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits, it is easy for us to spot strong occurrences of them in other people. There is nothing subtle about traits such as frequent verbal abuse, nasty vindictiveness, and temper tantrums. The reason for learning about BPD traits in particular, as I noted above, is that the Canadian study of physical abusers found that nearly half of them have full-blown BPD.

 

Third, a diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you. Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean she doesn't have strong BPD traits.

 

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree -- as I discussed above. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein in client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

 

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

 

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

 

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

 

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) eventually realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

 

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released next May, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.

 

WWWJD, I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no bus coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk.

[wwwjd]

figures.... friggin insurance money.

 

 

heh. I remember finding out about the DSM3&4 books... spent way too much time in them only to conclude I can't do JACK for someone that doesn't want to change anything.

 

I hope the OP is strong enough to lock her memories of this guy away in her heart's museum and move on. Billions on this planet, some will be permenantly broken.

[dsw31]

Wow! I'm blown away with this discussion!

Another poster mentioned a very informative website that I've been glancing over.

There's just too much information for one day but, if anyone's interested, it's called

 

GettinBetter.com's Articles

 

 

* I'm especially interested in the article called-

"Haven't we met before? The borderline/narcissist couple"

Edited May 8, 2012 by dsw31

[Downtown]

Another poster mentioned a very informative website that I've been glancing over.... GettinBetter.com's Articles

DSW, yes, that is an excellent resource. That website provides all the articles written by therapist Shari Schreiber, who is my favorite writer on the subjects of BPD and codependency. My favorite article by her -- which explains how we excessive caregivers became that way in childhood -- is DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?, which I've cited in many other threads. It is listed as the first article on the page that your link points to.