"That's my H...go get your own"

[findingnemo]

A very interesting article came out in one of our Sunday papers. I can't post it because it would be TMI and point to my exact location. I'll briefly tell you what it says.

 

The question was why do single women have affairs with MMs. It was basically looking at what motivates those that sleep with MMs to do so. What attracts them to these men. It was a rant by a Bs I'm sure. Please bear in mind that I live in Africa and we are different in our views in many ways. so if this comes off as extremist in some ways, please just give it some thought. Below are some points:

 

1. Young women are attracted to men with money and power. What they don't realize is that those men with money and power are generally organized, hardworking and most of all deliberate. They are most likely M with women who support them in their endeavors. By their very nature, most successful men chose a compatible wife early in life.

 

2. Married men tend to be more considerate of women because of practice. They know how to act around a woman -opening car doors, seating them at restaurants, allowing them to walk in the door first, etc. These so called gentlemanly gestures become automatic to married men.

 

3. Married men are sometimes less selfish than single men. They are capable of calling a woman once or twice a day, listening to her talk about her latest acquisition of a designer bag without looking bored, being gracious to her friends when he meets them, etc.

 

4. Most married men are excellent gift givers. They know to start with perfume, them move onto silk scarves, the latest phones, etc. They don't run out of ideas and the gifts given are usually something the woman wants. Single guys are more prone to giving inappropriate gifts.

 

5. Married men know how to handle baby talk and how to speak with young children. They know how to engage kids and therefore can easily seem like "good" catches.

 

6. A few other things were listed such as being able to quickly handle car issues, plumbing, sort out domestic things that women generally don't want to be bothered with. Oh one more thing. Presentation. Married men will dress well and are usually better groomed on a consistent basis than single men.

 

The basic point is that married men are more capable of meeting a woman's needs simply because they've had practice. The idea is really simple. That married man is all the things above because a woman he is married to taught him how to be like that. For example, a married man is more likely to put the toilet seat down when done than a single man.

 

The author ends the article by warning single women to be careful and to acknowledge that what they admire in married men is a direct result of them being...married and conditioned to treat a woman well. She tells them to go find their own "raw product" and groom him into whatever it is they want. That falling for another woman's "finished product" is simply coveting what's not yours and trying to reap where you did not sow!

 

Okay...at first I balked at it. I was thinking "What???" and then I realized that the author is actually making some good points. When I met my H, he had some habits which TBH were off putting. I panel beat him into a much more presentable person. Any woman he dates today will assume that he is all these things because he's particular. But the fact is that it took years living with me for him to develop the ability to be considerate of a woman in many ways.

 

What do you think about this? Please note that I'm not bashing men here. The article was primarily about single womens' fascination with married men. I do believe that women also learn a lot when M. I'm not sure if that necessarily makes them more attractive to single men.

[Radu]

There was this Married with Children episode where Peggy is at the hair salon with Marcy [who's hairdresser got into a slapfight or something], and besides the usual gaggle of geeses they meet a professional OW.

 

I remember vividly her argument in the discussion ... 'Believe me [laughing untill now, now dead serious] best things in life, are someone else's'.

 

There might be some truth here, but i dislike 2 things about this article though i agree with some others.

I agree that most really succesfull ppl chose a wife early in life and they made it work together. Most of them credit their succes to their wives.

This makes sense to be because i have seen it in my life but also because you can't do it all in your life, you need a partner.

 

But i also know men who were OK before marriage and the marriage in itself has done nothing but destroy them.

 

I think the original article was probably written by a BS who tried to paint her hubby and his OW in a bad light as a 'lazy' woman, forgetting the fact that if they had a strong relationship than something must have been horribly wrong in hubby to do this.

[Woggle]

While I agree that you should not go after other people's spouses I don't like the idea that there is something wrong with men that needs fixing from women. MM who cheat are just good BS artists. That is all.

[Radagast]

I find the entire premise of the article - that men are barbarians who need civilising by a woman - offensive and objectionable.

[bentnotbroken]

I get the intent of the article but all the things listed, according to the article could exist in an older man who isn't married. It appears that age is the only reason there has been enough practice at doing the things listed. So for me it does not address why younger women might want married men.

 

I like many women would definitely object to MM(at least the one that I know from experience) had issues with giving gifts that were appropriate...toaster anybody:(.

 

The article also didn't mention the fact that a great number of OW are not young and haven't been for quite some time. The last OW in my situation was only a year or so younger than me and from the info I gathered after the fact, the first OW was older than me.

 

I guess basically I think the article is full of three day old dodo, entertaining though:D

[Summer Breeze]

I've been on the site for a few years and lurked a year or so before that. There have been OW who have had Rs with their MM that were exactly that---Rs. I was one of them. I don't think the blame lies with BS or the censors as to them not being here still. I just think they were trying to say that not all As are the same and they'd try and explain their reality, but it wasn't well received. I think it's easier for some people to think that every A is the same and nothing but tawdry and misery. It makes it easier to believe that none are ever special and none have real feelings so the one that touched you is minimized no matter what. I think that is no different than believing BS that are reconciling are jailers or are somehow keeping the WS there against their will. Sometimes our minds hold onto things that make our situations easier to deal with.

 

I rambled. Those OW met with some pretty open hostility and after years of duking it out they left. Not saying they're right or wrong.

 

Speaking from my own experience. My MM was someone I fell in love with. Did his W instigate the changes or did they come with general maturity and experience? Nurture v nature. I am who I am but it doesn't have much at all to do with anyone I've been with as it has to do with maturing as a person. I can see the premise of the article but I just don't think it's really something that's an across the board given.

 

Still rambling. Sorry

Edited May 10, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed quote to deleted post

[TigerCub]

Hey FN,

 

That must have been quite the article.

 

The Ultimate Irony of it (if its true):

-Woman A spends so much time and energy grooming her man into the magnificent specimen he becomes

 

-Those qualities help said man get Woman B,C and or D

 

AND...

 

-Woman A is seen as a controlling Nag for all she had to do to correct his bad behavior and instill more desirable ones in him in the first place.

 

Man, now that's irony.

[SomedayDig]

I personally feel both men AND women grow through R's, whether the R is good or bad. You grow to realize what you refuse to put up with, and you grow to realize which "battles" are worth fighting and which are not. You also grow toward learning a team approach to issues and situations. That will make anyone a better person overall.

 

THIS is exactly what my wife and I are discovering. She now knows that I was here waiting, while her affair fog told her I wasn't part of the team. That has totally changed. And its good.

[Summer Breeze]

I personally feel both men AND women grow through R's, whether the R is good or bad. You grow to realize what you refuse to put up with, and you grow to realize which "battles" are worth fighting and which are not. You also grow toward learning a team approach to issues and situations. That will make anyone a better person overall.

 

This isn't really aimed at your post Donna but what you wrote made me think of something.

 

What if someone spends their life alone? I had a BIL who was uncle to 9 kids and he was awesome with kids. My uncle never married till he was mid 50s and he was the best uncle ever. They were both tremendously successful and never had LT relationships till late in life. They didn't belong to someone else but they were defo catches. I don't think someone's a catch specifically because they're M.

[xxoo]

The author ends the article by warning single women to be careful and to acknowledge that what they admire in married men is a direct result of them being...married and conditioned to treat a woman well. .

 

Except for the small detail of being a cheating S.O.B.

 

I think many single men have the same ability to woo a lady, but maybe not the same willingness. Single men have their freedom to lose, and usually won't go all out for one woman unless she is THE woman. He's going to have to be pretty head-over-heels to treat a woman as described in the op. When a single man IS head over heels, he acts similarly. When he isn't head over heels, he holds back and goes slowly, seeing what develops.

 

A married man, otoh, doesn't have his freedom to give or lose. He can go into heavy pursuit right away. It isn't like she can expect him to marry her, or anything, because he is already married!

[xxoo]

Adding....a MM has to go into heavy, sweep-her-off-her-feet mode right away, because otherwise why would a woman sleep with him?

 

A single man doesn't have to, and has reasons not to if he isn't feeling it, so he is less likely to pursue that heavily from the beginning, even if he can.

[Trimmer]

I don't know... I don't mean to denigrate the fact that the OP found some resonance with the points in this article, but I don't really find it to have presented anything new or profound. We already know a woman is attracted to a man for various reasons, and we can make a list of those reasons, and we can write an article publishing that list.

 

Then once we have that list, it is not particularly surprising that a woman would be attracted to a man who another woman finds attractive (e.g. a successfully married man) because he meets many of the criteria in that list.

 

So the main thrust of the article doesn't really deliver any new insights related to infidelity, does it? It talks about why single women might find married men attractive, but it doesn't (seem to) address why a single woman would cheat.

 

So the article may have valid points about attraction, but they're not terribly profound. Then it seems to try to put those points in the context of an infidelity theme, but fails to deliver anything substantial around that theme, other than the (kinda weird) entreaty to "find your own man and mold him yourself..."

 

It sound more like a vacuous article from Cosmo than a Sunday paper feature, but the cultural difference (I'm in the U.S.) could play into that, I suppose...

Edited May 8, 2012 by Trimmer

[Summer Breeze]

Except for the small detail of being a cheating S.O.B.

 

I think many single men have the same ability to woo a lady, but maybe not the same willingness. Single men have their freedom to lose, and usually won't go all out for one woman unless she is THE woman. He's going to have to be pretty head-over-heels to treat a woman as described in the op. When a single man IS head over heels, he acts similarly. When he isn't head over heels, he holds back and goes slowly, seeing what develops.

 

A married man, otoh, doesn't have his freedom to give or lose. He can go into heavy pursuit right away. It isn't like she can expect him to marry her, or anything, because he is already married!

 

If a man didn't treat me as described in the OP I wouldn't see him. Other than the gifts. I'm not a huge one for gifts other than on holidays and birthdays. Why on earth would I be with someone who didn't treat me the way I expect to be treated? As far as single men I find them just as attentive as married men.

[xxoo]

If a man didn't treat me as described in the OP I wouldn't see him. Other than the gifts. I'm not a huge one for gifts other than on holidays and birthdays. Why on earth would I be with someone who didn't treat me the way I expect to be treated? As far as single men I find them just as attentive as married men.

 

I want to be treated like that, too. And that was my experience when dating my H.

 

My point is that a single man will be more cautious about treating women that way, not that they don't know how, or that theyhaven't been adequately trained.

[beenburned]

Thanks for the article!

 

Most successful married men would not be who they are today if their wives had not supported them and the family!

 

Someone mentioned a team effort, that is so true.

[Spark1111]

FN, i find the article interesting as it gels with what I have read written by evolutionary psychologists.

 

It's sorta similiar along the lines of 'all women want the alpha male.'

 

Well, definitions may vary, but generally it is a man who has proven he can provide successfully for the clan, protect his young AND sustain a long-term relationship with his mate as well.

 

and that would be a MM, no? He has proven it I think.

 

I have single and divorced gfs and they do not care if a propspective partner has been divorced, but they do look for financial stability, considerate treatment, good parenting skills....but heaven forbid he should live with his mother or be jobless!

 

I think they are looking for reassurances of a stable future should they invest in him emotionally.

[Summer Breeze]

I want to be treated like that, too. And that was my experience when dating my H.

 

My point is that a single man will be more cautious about treating women that way, not that they don't know how, or that theyhaven't been adequately trained.

 

I understood what you were saying but I think it goes to what a person will accept. If someone was disrespectful or acted halfhearted I'd be cutting it short and deleting them from my list of everything. I never found single men to be too standoffish and I never saw my AP go over the top. I do understand what you're saying but again I think you get treated they way you allow yourself to be treated.

[Summer Breeze]

FN, i find the article interesting as it gels with what I have read written by evolutionary psychologists.

 

It's sorta similiar along the lines of 'all women want the alpha male.'

 

Well, definitions may vary, but generally it is a man who has proven he can provide successfully for the clan, protect his young AND sustain a long-term relationship with his mate as well.

 

and that would be a MM, no? He has proven it I think.

 

I have single and divorced gfs and they do not care if a propspective partner has been divorced, but they do look for financial stability, considerate treatment, good parenting skills....but heaven forbid he should live with his mother or be jobless!

 

I think they are looking for reassurances of a stable future should they invest in him emotionally.

 

Two things I want to comment on.

 

I've dated men in their 40s who live with their parents. The ones who may be there as a stopgap are no problem because they enjoy their independence and are trying to gain it back. The ones who never left come as a package deal. Sorry but I don't want to have a package deal in a serious R. If Mom's going to be over our shoulders I don't want any of it.

 

The other is that MM are alpha males. I dare say I've seen as many OW with MM who are addicts, jobless, irresponsible as I have that are alpha males. I see what you're saying and that is just how we're built but I don't see the logic of any old MM being an alpha male.

 

Quite an interesting thread.

[Character Floss]

Correlation and causality, two different issues. These findings are similar in methodology to those that compare the lifetime earnings of college graduates with high school graduates, and in no way factor in what a typical college graduate would have earned had he or she not gone to college.

 

A lot of the difference may be attributable to character traits found in those willing to do what is necessary to get into (a good) college and succeed there, and these same traits would have led to higher lifetime income, perhaps as a small businessperson rather than professional/highly skilled employee, or someone who would work two jobs as necessary to meet goals, and may have little to do with the degree or what was learned in college (two very different subjects).

 

So, women tend to marry men who treat women well; and married men tend to treat all women better; maybe it's just finding the same traits attractive, although being in a team environment does teach skills and knock-down egos pretty well (or it should), and those are desirable traits.

 

If I was taught by anyone it was my mother: Stand up when a woman or social/business superior enters a room. Never extend your hand to a woman, but wait for her to extend hers first. Open doors. Extend your hand confidently to a man, even of "superior social standing," shake his hand firmly and look him in the eye. Say thank you, please and I'm sorry. Know which fork to use. If in a safe neigbhorhood, walk on the street-side of a woman to absorb anything thrown up from the roadway. If in a questioanable or unsafe neighborhood, walk on the building side of a woman, to be a bugger between her and any would-be mugger.

 

I am in the temporary living with my mother (gasp), but at 85, she wound up in the hospital for a week and in rehab for three weeks from the flu; it worked that I was there to get her the care she needed, and I've also replaced the plumbing lines under her house (original piping was rusting) and have taken care of numerous other items, and I cook...so she enjoys eating, and has better nutrition, than when she cooked for herself. I do my own laundry and much of hers, the vacuuming, etc.,...my gawd, no matter where I am I seem to find myself!

[Character Floss]

As one of those here who has had an affair (one), I never pursue the OW. We were friends. I interacted with her as I do with other friends of both genders. If a guy needs a hand with something, I'll give it, etc.

 

I chose to betray, but I never pursued. I mean, I don't want an AP, I don't want any partner at this time, or hook-up sex or any of that. So not every one of us who has been unfaithful is on the hunt, has been on the hunt, etc.

 

In my case, it was eighteen months of friendship before anything happened, and I never got it that she was falling for me.

 

I met my wife by building a computer for her. When I came to put it together (no charge for my efforts) she had her whole family there, not sure if I was an axe murderer, rapist or just nice. She later learned that if she'd been a 50 year-old guy or 80 year-old, I would have shown the same care with the whole computer selection/construction issue. It wasn't about her or wanting anything from her; it was just me, and the way I treat people.

[findingnemo]

I could "like" all the posts but I decided to post. You know, I summarized the article. The number of things she (the author) listed were numerous. The tone struck me as a bit bitter. Like she had been cheated on by her H and was still angry. The OW must have been younger too.

 

First of all, I do believe that some single men are just how she described while some MMs are disasters. Reality is one thing, perception another. Most MMs here wear wedding bands and won't take them off no matter what. They'll even tell women they are M with X kids within the first few minutes of meeting them. So what's the attraction? Why do so many young women date older MMs? (Yes some OW are older but MMs here tend to go mostly for much younger women by 10-15 years at least). When asked, the OWs will list things that show they value the men's success above everything else. I think the author is asking them (in a convoluted way) to be honest with themselves. Would they fall for that man if he wasn't successful? If he couldn't give them a tatse of a better life? What motivates a 25 year old woman to fall for a 45 year old man? It's not his six pack, or his big muscles, or even his remarkable energy in bed. She argues that it's all the other things that come with experience dealing with a woman/women.

 

I do agree though that it could just be a function of age. Older men can be more patient and attentive, and concentrate on one 25 year old at a time. Maybe they've dated for so long that they too have learned how to treat women. Unfortunately there aren't plenty of single 50 year old men here. The ones who get divorced marry again pretty fast.

 

But fundamentally I related because I feel that being in a good functioning LTR, M included, contributes to making people more stable, more compassionate, etc. They develop better social skills. I did...even if my M was a disaster. My H definitely is much better now that he was when we first moved in together. Even with all the psycho crap that he pulled, he still knew how to be a gentleman according to Nemo's standards.

 

If for one minute we are honest and admit that nobody is who they are or where they are without the help of a number of people, then a single young OW should know that the BW has contributed to some extent to what has become of the "wonderful" MM. Isn't it smarter to start with that assumption than to just believe that the BW is an ogre? This applies to OMs too. The MW is where she is and who she is to some extent because of her BH. If the BS was truly so horrible, why is it so hard for the WS to leave? I think she was trying to educate single women who are "attracted" to MMs to think about it a little. Yes, she did it with a serious bias but still I think she has a point and it applies in Africa and everywhere else in the world.

[Spark1111]

I could "like" all the posts but I decided to post. You know, I summarized the article. The number of things she (the author) listed were numerous. The tone struck me as a bit bitter. Like she had been cheated on by her H and was still angry. The OW must have been younger too.

 

First of all, I do believe that some single men are just how she described while some MMs are disasters. Reality is one thing, perception another. Most MMs here wear wedding bands and won't take them off no matter what. They'll even tell women they are M with X kids within the first few minutes of meeting them. So what's the attraction? Why do so many young women date older MMs? (Yes some OW are older but MMs here tend to go mostly for much younger women by 10-15 years at least). When asked, the OWs will list things that show they value the men's success above everything else. I think the author is asking them (in a convoluted way) to be honest with themselves. Would they fall for that man if he wasn't successful? If he couldn't give them a tatse of a better life? What motivates a 25 year old woman to fall for a 45 year old man? It's not his six pack, or his big muscles, or even his remarkable energy in bed. She argues that it's all the other things that come with experience dealing with a woman/women.

 

I do agree though that it could just be a function of age. Older men can be more patient and attentive, and concentrate on one 25 year old at a time. Maybe they've dated for so long that they too have learned how to treat women. Unfortunately there aren't plenty of single 50 year old men here. The ones who get divorced marry again pretty fast.

 

But fundamentally I related because I feel that being in a good functioning LTR, M included, contributes to making people more stable, more compassionate, etc. They develop better social skills. I did...even if my M was a disaster. My H definitely is much better now that he was when we first moved in together. Even with all the psycho crap that he pulled, he still knew how to be a gentleman according to Nemo's standards.

 

If for one minute we are honest and admit that nobody is who they are or where they are without the help of a number of people, then a single young OW should know that the BW has contributed to some extent to what has become of the "wonderful" MM. Isn't it smarter to start with that assumption than to just believe that the BW is an ogre? This applies to OMs too. The MW is where she is and who she is to some extent because of her BH. If the BS was truly so horrible, why is it so hard for the WS to leave? I think she was trying to educate single women who are "attracted" to MMs to think about it a little. Yes, she did it with a serious bias but still I think she has a point and it applies in Africa and everywhere else in the world.

 

And I agree with you that she makes excellent points! Ones worth considering!

 

If we (women) judge a man by his stability, success, and consideration, (living with and taking care of mother CAn be a good thing!) then we are in agreement.

 

I have to disagree though with women (that I know) having an EMR with a jobless drug addict. I also disagree that the OW is younger or prettier in all cases. Believe it or not, not too many, FN.

 

If the alpha male is successful, financially stable, and considerate of women, it does not automatically translate into a younger woman. That is an ego stroke of a different ilk; i.e. mid-life crisis. I want to revisit my youth, I am feeling my impending mortatlity and want to experience 19 again.

 

More often, IMHO, it is a woman who worships them but doesn't put too many demands on them -- that is the ultimate ego boost. That, and her sexual desire of them and her willingness to be physically available at the drop of a dime.

 

Gentlemen, am I wrong?

 

Actually, men are pretty basic. It is women and their wants and desires that are complicated, IMO.

 

I think the article is spot on.

 

We want security, protection, someone who provides, who is considerate and respectful, kind to our friends and family.....the list goes on and on.

[Got it]

Um.......yeah........no.........but cute.

[The Blue Knight]

The basic point is that married men are more capable of meeting a woman's needs simply because they've had practice. The idea is really simple. That married man is all the things above because a woman he is married to taught him how to be like that. For example, a married man is more likely to put the toilet seat down when done than a single man.

 

The author ends the article by warning single women to be careful and to acknowledge that what they admire in married men is a direct result of them being...married and conditioned to treat a woman well. She tells them to go find their own "raw product" and groom him into whatever it is they want. That falling for another woman's "finished product" is simply coveting what's not yours and trying to reap where you did not sow!

 

Okay...at first I balked at it. I was thinking "What???" and then I realized that the author is actually making some good points. When I met my H, he had some habits which TBH were off putting. I panel beat him into a much more presentable person. Any woman he dates today will assume that he is all these things because he's particular. But the fact is that it took years living with me for him to develop the ability to be considerate of a woman in many ways.

 

What do you think about this? Please note that I'm not bashing men here. The article was primarily about single womens' fascination with married men. I do believe that women also learn a lot when M. I'm not sure if that necessarily makes them more attractive to single men.

Well first of all, I must confess that I leave the toilet seat up.

 

I'll throw out one more twist to this theory and in some respects the article kind of dabbled in this area.

 

Married men can be "safe" because they are married and for some single women, that's more of what they are looking for. I had always heard the wedding ring will attract some women because of this built-in "safety feature" although I have no idea if that's necessarily true.

 

A woman not ready for commitment to anything permanent can get from a married man what she wants (gifts, attention, sex) without all the strings and relationship baggage. And because he's married and is often well into his career, he's typically got the resources. She doesn't have to feel like she's "on the hook" to see him every day. She can still live her single life without all the fuss. But she has access to him whenever she wants.

 

I have observed this a number of times so I know there's some truth to it.

 

Of course where this approach goes sour quickly is when the single woman falls for the married guy at which time the original concept completely blows up.

[The Blue Knight]

FN, i find the article interesting as it gels with what I have read written by evolutionary psychologists.

 

It's sorta similiar along the lines of 'all women want the alpha male.'

 

Well, definitions may vary, but generally it is a man who has proven he can provide successfully for the clan, protect his young AND sustain a long-term relationship with his mate as well.

 

and that would be a MM, no? He has proven it I think.

 

I have single and divorced gfs and they do not care if a propspective partner has been divorced, but they do look for financial stability, considerate treatment, good parenting skills....but heaven forbid he should live with his mother or be jobless!

 

I think they are looking for reassurances of a stable future should they invest in him emotionally.

And therein lies the problem because when women target those things above in bold Spark, they oftentimes end up settling for someone they may not be completely head over heels in love with, desperately attracted too, or who they may not share a very strong sexual attraction for . . . and the end result? . . . two very unhappy individuals.