Consolidated discussion - The Friend Zone

[SJC2008]

Wasn't Stu the one who married Heather Graham's character?

 

Lol good point! Only in the movies...

[USMCHokie]

I'm only in partial agreement. I actually think that the tendency of LS denizens to hyper-analyze dating and relationships is a negative, and that the information one typically could get here is often worse than what you could get talking to people in real life. Most of the people who post here are not therapists or relationship coaches, and it shows (although some of them sure like to think they are, what with their eagerness to pathologize every conceivable behavior, particularly if said behavior is engaged in by a male).

 

I agree here. The collective anecdotal "evidence" presented on LS seems to create a caricature of the average person in the dating world.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Unless you are that girl, how could you possibly know that...

 

Because, like the OP, he is an expert on all things woman.

[USMCHokie]

Because, like the OP, he is an expert on all things woman.

 

Are women experts on all things woman...? That is, can any one woman accurately assess the thoughts of all other women? Or is it as much speculation as a man's assessment? Perhaps a more educated speculation, but speculation nonetheless...

[TheBigQuestion]

Are women experts on all things woman...? That is, can any one woman accurately assess the thoughts of all other women? Or is it as much speculation as a man's assessment? Perhaps a more educated speculation, but speculation nonetheless...

 

Either way, the poster who made that statement mentioned a few pages back that in many cases, he actually verified with those women that they would have in fact dated his friend "Jimmy."

[CARL45]

You end up in the friend zone for one simple reason you have too much rapport with a woman. Your not a lover to a woman and your also not physical with her. Once you understand this then you will no longer have that problem.

[Taramere]

A lot of times if a guy gets "friendzoned" its overanalyzed to death.From the guys appproach or whter or not he wasnt agressive enough etc the bottom line is 99% of the time its because you werent good looking enough to the women.

 

I think guys would save themslvesalot of heartache and overanalyzing if they just realized this instead of beating themselves up as to what they could have done better when chances are it was out of their hands.

 

So what do you suggest those "not good looking enough" men do? Should they just angrily wave away any overtures of friendship from the opposite sex and retreat into lives of isolation? Apply a "men only" rule to their friendships, even if the net result is that they have hardly any friends?

 

Sounds a bit like a cutting off of the nose to spite the face measure to me, but that seems to be the one that frequently gets advocated to those men. That and "start being a bastard" (which in most cases is probably just going to guarantee further social isolation for the friend-zoned guy).

 

And then people complain about the higher suicide rate amongst men. Often men who are very isolated socially. "What can we do to help?" We can be friends to those guys. "Noooo. That's not good enough. Women being friends to those men is just a form of torture to them...if you're not going to sleep with them, leave them alone for Christ's sake."

 

So they get left alone, and they get depressed etc etc etc. The bottom line is that friendship is not actually a bad thing. Even, shock and horror, friendship from a woman.

[USMCHokie]

You end up in the friend zone for one simple reason you have too much rapport with a woman. Your not a lover to a woman and your also not physical with her. Once you understand this then you will no longer have that problem.

 

Here's a question I pose to you in response to this. If the man who develops too much rapport with a woman and never escalates to the physical is physically unattractive, he is in the friend zone. But if he is physically attractive, might it be possible that she falls into his friend zone...?

[TheBigQuestion]

Are women experts on all things woman...? That is, can any one woman accurately assess the thoughts of all other women? Or is it as much speculation as a man's assessment? Perhaps a more educated speculation, but speculation nonetheless...

 

I also meant to say that it's pretty much all speculation. Most women aren't in any position to explain what women categorically want any better than men are, and there's a reasonable argument to be made that men might know a bit more because they are the ones who actually date women.

 

So many people go through life confusing what they actually want with (1) what the world tells them they should want, and/or (2) what they think they should want. When asked if he knew what women want, Roger Sterling from Mad Men during an early episode responded, "who cares?" This is probably the best attitude to have. Frankly, it's silly to worry too much about what women want or don't want. It's better to just DO and see what works.

[tbf]

We have plenty of classic masculine men to emulate on LS.

Where?

[TheBigQuestion]

So what do you suggest those "not good looking enough" men do? Should they just angrily wave away any overtures of friendship from the opposite sex and retreat into lives of isolation? Apply a "men only" rule to their friendships, even if the net result is that they have hardly any friends?

 

Sounds a bit like a cutting off of the nose to spite the face measure to me, but that seems to be the one that frequently gets advocated to those men. That and "start being a bastard" (which in most cases is probably just going to guarantee further social isolation for the friend-zoned guy).

 

And then people complain about the higher suicide rate amongst men. Often men who are very isolated socially. "What can we do to help?" We can be friends to those guys. "Noooo. That's not good enough. Women being friends to those men is just a form of torture to them...if you're not going to sleep with them, leave them alone for Christ's sake."

 

So they get left alone, and they get depressed etc etc etc. The bottom line is that friendship is not actually a bad thing. Even, shock and horror, friendship from a woman.

 

There's a whole world of difference between forming friendships with women and being friend-zoned. No one in this thread has declared the former to be a bad thing. The former is something that grows organically as does any other friendship; the latter is unilaterally imposed by the woman, and is usually only offered as consolation for what is typically a misunderstanding of intentions between a man and a woman.

[USMCHokie]

I also meant to say that it's pretty much all speculation. Most women aren't in any position to explain what women categorically want any better than men are, and there's a reasonable argument to be made that men might know a bit more because they are the ones who actually date women.

 

So many people go through life confusing what they actually want with (1) what the world tells them they should want, and/or (2) what they think they should want. When asked if he knew what women want, Roger Sterling from Mad Men during an early episode responded, "who cares?" This is probably the best attitude to have. Frankly, it's silly to worry too much about what women want or don't want. It's better to just DO and see what works.

 

Great show. And this statement sparked a related thought in my head to explain why such an attitude is so appealing, especially to the insecure. It goes back to others wanting approval from you. Women want to be wanted. They will fight to be wanted and will do what it takes to be wanted. So it doesn't matter what they want; at the end of the day, all they want is to be wanted by you. Therefore, it's your wants that matter. Roger had it right, as long as he focused on his wants, then women would fall right in line with those wants.

 

Wow, as convoluted as that speculation was, it did arrive at a rather startling conclusion...

[TheBigQuestion]

Great show. And this statement sparked a related thought in my head to explain why such an attitude is so appealing, especially to the insecure. It goes back to others wanting approval from you. Women want to be wanted. They will fight to be wanted and will do what it takes to be wanted. So it doesn't matter what they want; at the end of the day, all they want is to be wanted by you. Therefore, it's your wants that matter. Roger had it right, as long as he focused on his wants, then women would fall right in line with those wants.

 

Wow, as convoluted as that speculation was, it did arrive at a rather startling conclusion...

 

Impressive.

[Taramere]

There's a whole world of difference between forming friendships with women and being friend-zoned. No one in this thread has declared the former to be a bad thing. The former is something that grows organically as does any other friendship; the latter is unilaterally imposed by the woman, and is usually only offered as consolation for what is typically a misunderstanding of intentions between a man and a woman.

 

Well, variations on "let's still be friends" are standard line in the dumping process and so is the "I like you, but as a friend" line in rejecting somebody romantically. The likelihood is that most people, by the time they pluck up the courage to make a romantic overture towards somebody they like, have developed some level of rapport with that person - even if only a very superficial level.

 

It goes back to rejection just not being a pleasant thing for anybody to cope with, regardless of how it's dressed up. People often talk on here about preferring brutal honesty. Maybe they do, but I'm never entirely convinced that people who complain about the friend-zoning process would feel any better about rejection being served up to them in the kind of blunt and harsh way that takes little thought and effort (to be considerate of the other person's feelings) on the part of the person doing the rejecting.

[joystickd]

Well, variations on "let's still be friends" are standard line in the dumping process and so is the "I like you, but as a friend" line in rejecting somebody romantically. The likelihood is that most people, by the time they pluck up the courage to make a romantic overture towards somebody they like, have developed some level of rapport with that person - even if only a very superficial level.

 

It goes back to rejection just not being a pleasant thing for anybody to cope with, regardless of how it's dressed up. People often talk on here about preferring brutal honesty. Maybe they do, but I'm never entirely convinced that people who complain about the friend-zoning process would feel any better about rejection being served up to them in the kind of blunt and harsh way that takes little thought and effort (to be considerate of the other person's feelings) on the part of the person doing the rejecting.

I would rather hear a straight out rejection than a lets be friends. I spent up until 25 hearing "No one wants to date your a$$", "Hell no mother f***er", "Who wants a lame mother f***er like you", and other variations on those three. I forgot there was ugly mother f***er in there too. At this point I'd rather just hear no and leave it at that. I'd want honesty but not brutal honesty. If you don't want me just say it.

[joystickd]

Here's a question I pose to you in response to this. If the man who develops too much rapport with a woman and never escalates to the physical is physically unattractive, he is in the friend zone. But if he is physically attractive, might it be possible that she falls into his friend zone...?

You know with men it's the f**k zone lol.

[USMCHokie]

You know with men it's the f**k zone lol.

 

Ah, yes, indeed. But the conditions were that there was no physical escalation...

 

Otherwise, you're right, FWB is the best she's going to get...

[Buttercup84]

I have rejected men who had women after them all the time, because they were jerks or we had no chemistry.

 

 

The guy I am currently into is not the best looking guy in the world, but he is an awesome person.

[soccerrprp]

The guy I am currently into is not the best looking guy in the world, but he is an awesome person.

 

But pretty darn attractive, none-the-less, right?

 

I agree. For either sex, being put in the friend-zone seems to be influenced primarily by the attractiveness of the individual.

 

I've seen this played out a couple of times in real-time.

 

If one has a crappy personality, there's little chance that one would be even considered for the friend-zone. This is whether the person is attractive or not. But, have a great personality and not so attractive, well, friend-zone is possible and even then, for some, the lack of physical attraction is enough to not entertain a friend-zone status.

 

It's just the reality. People are, invariably, attracted to the physical, visual qualities first. That first consideration then determines everything else that follows (in terms of decision-making).

[man_in_the_box]

I still haven't got passt the part where the OP supports his statement that FZ-ing is solely the result of being physically unattractive by arguing that he 'banged married broads and knew their desires'.

 

Compelling argument bro.

[Mr_Flay]

I've always maintained that this "friendzone" doesn't exist. The whole concept (not just the term) was invented by guys who were rejected by certain women as a justification, and it spread by means of message boards like every other Internet meme. The phrase "Let's just be friends!" actually means "I'm not attracted to you [for whatever reason]." and should be read as such. In most cases the girl doesn't really desire a genuine friendship, just normal acquaintanceship in which there is no awkwardness (though that's hard to avoid once the romantic intentions become clear).

 

Guys have overanalysed this friendzone to death, and conjectured that it occurred due to one or more of the following reasons:

 

 

• acting towards a girl in a friendly way;
  
• waiting too long before making your intentions clear;
  
• not making your intentions clear in an exactly prescribed way (by PUA);
  
• not being an alpha and cocky towards a girl;
  
• ...
  

I've seen enough evidence around me of guys who behaved in ways listed above and still got their girl. There isn't one single way to behave which creates attraction. We're people, and people like different things. I'm sure not all guys like the same type of woman either.

 

Remember guys, you inflict "friendzone" on yourself, rather than the girl dooming you with it intentionally. You always have a choice: keep the girl's company while being careful not to end up as an "orbiter"; or break all contacts with the girl if it's too awkward for you to be in the presence of a girl who doesn't want you. Like some Christian interpretations of Hell, the friendzone doesn't exist as a place, it's just a state of mind.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Mr_Flay

[ascendotum]

I have rejected men who had women after them all the time, because they were jerks or we had no chemistry.

 

The guy I am currently into is not the best looking guy in the world, but he is an awesome person.

 

there seems to be 2 versions of friendzone here. One were the guy hangs out with the girl but hopes for more and the other where a guy asks a girl out that he recently met and gets told I see you more as a friend. In the later scenario, for sure women will knock back a good looking guy who randomly hits on her. Less often though will a single girl build up a good connection & level of bonding with a good looking (not in LTR) guy over time but it not ignite any sexual feelings for him. If the guy was a charming but interminable womaniser (like barney in the show HIMYM) for example you could see her always keeping such a guy as a guy pal. (still I've known of a couple of relationships like this where there has been drunk ons action. ...a good memory for any friendzone guy)

 

I've friendzoned 4 women in the past 8 yrs and its basically come down to attractiveness...plus the chemistry was not really great..but that does get influenced by physical attraction in my book. All nice friendly women, but just not my type, to use the line I've been handed number of times. It took me a while to pick up they had feelings for me, plus my mind was focused on other women I had interest in or an ex. (same scenario being played out in reverse a couple of time. lol) I had to dial back my interaction and a it resulted in hurt feelings and more formal or nil interaction in the end. If I had found these women somewhat sexy it would have flicked a switch in my mind and would not have been too hard to sleep with them, and just worry about the consequences later. These women had been single for a while (looking for LTR) and in social group so it was not so simple to have sex for a bit then go back to before...not so much as friendzoned guys would consider that an okay outcome.

 

 

"is not the best looking guy in the world".

as soccerrprp pointed out, these sort of modest (semi truth) remarks from women, often underplay the fact the guy's looks are still big element.

Edited May 7, 2013 by ascendotum

[sillyanswer]

I've always maintained that this "friendzone" doesn't exist. The whole concept (not just the term) was invented by guys who were rejected by certain women as a justification, and it spread by means of message boards like every other Internet meme.

 

Yup, most guys who say they've been "friendzoned" have actually been rejected, and the sooner they face up to that and recognise that there isn't some "zone" from which they can escape the sooner they can move on and look for someone else.

 

Some people actually get to make friends with people they tried to date - and that's great, but that isn't a "friendzone" either, it's a friendship. I've met a few friends this way.

 

Generally when I hear the word "friend" in a rejection ("let's just be friends", "I thought we were friends", "I see you more as a friend", "I think we could be friends" etc) I tell them that I'm sorry that that we won't be dating any more and wish them the best... and that's the end of it.

[crederer]

Attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, if you're friendzoned it's likely due to the fact that she is not attracted to you. But I've seen good looking girls with guys I didn't think were particularly attractive, but obviously the girl felt differently. I've seen burly, biker looking dudes with attractive women. I also know a lot of women that aren't attracted to the well-groomed pretty boy types.

 

My one friend has a babe for a girlfriend, and he is overweight, completely balding at 25, and average looking at best. But he's got a killer personality. She was obviously attracted to him.

 

Also, I see guys get friendzoned a lot of times due to how they act. If you act like a friend, they'll see you as a friend.

[MoreThanThat]

Hmmm I've friend zoned a lot of men over the years and I can share 4 points about it:

 

1. It's NEVER been about physical appearance (unless it was a case of poor hygiene or something similar)

2. It's always been because they didn't make me FEEL the way I felt was necessary to pursue things further

3. After a kiss or other kind of intimacy, I didn't physically feel what I needed to

4. He showed too much emotion too fast for the amount of time we'd spent together and what we'd shared up until that point