How much and how do you know about your affair partner?

[bentnotbroken]

We all have sides of ourselves we show to noone. Daring to show them to one other person (in this case the affair partner) and thus be living more authentically on the outside can hopefully be a first step in living authentically across the board.

 

I know this to be the case with Neo. With me he has been more true to his authentic self than he has ever before dared to be with anyone. It has changed him. He is different in his marriage too now. He is more authentic there also as he has become stronger in his conviction that it is okay to not always be the perfect man and husband, to share emotions, to question old ways of living. Unfortunately there is a big lie of course in the marriage as he hides the fact that he has an other woman. Therefore the wife sees less of the authentic Neo than I do.

 

With me he has dared to be a partner in life rather than the perfect caring and providing husband.

 

 

Well the "perfect" face certainly isn't being authentic, since no one is. Cheating only adds to his none authentic persona. So it is possible that you know only what he is capable of showing.

[beenburned]

Well it seems to me that the whole problem is that the WS's perception is that they can not be their authentic self with the BS.(which is probably wrong)

(or just another excuse for cheating in the first place)

 

This seems to be based on the fear of rejection by the BS if she/he knew the real person that the WS is.

 

It is a form of conflict avoidance by never giving the BS the chance of knowing what the WS is feeling! Nobody is a mind reader. If the WS never has the courage to be authentic with the BS, then it is their own fault if their needs are not met!

[Bellechica]

Well it seems to me that the whole problem is that the WS's perception is that they can not be their authentic self with the BS.(which is probably wrong)

(or just another excuse for cheating in the first place)

 

This seems to be based on the fear of rejection by the BS if she/he knew the real person that the WS is.

 

It is a form of conflict avoidance by never giving the BS the chance of knowing what the WS is feeling! Nobody is a mind reader. If the WS never has the courage to be authentic with the BS, then it is their own fault if their needs are not met!

 

I agree with this. Something I'm learning to overcome in IC. I think communication is key and persistence. I tried telling my H that I wasn't happy prior to my A. It's my own fault for not persisting or figuring out what was wrong. I should have not felt like he was blowing me off. That's how I felt at the time and I should have expressed that. Conflict avoidance is a coping mechanism that leads to serious problems.

[beenburned]

Bell,

 

I find it extremely sad that a person feels like they can't be their true self with their marriage partner. Your spouse is supposed to be your partner in all the problems life throws at you and love you for who you are.

 

Fast forward to the day when your parents are dead. Your spouse is your family, and is supposed to have your best interests at heart. Especially when you become elderly and need their help.

[Bellechica]

Bell,

 

I find it extremely sad that a person feels like they can't be their true self with their marriage partner. Your spouse is supposed to be your partner in all the problems life throws at you and love you for who you are.

 

Fast forward to the day when your parents are dead. Your spouse is your family, and is supposed to have your best interests at heart. Especially when you become elderly and need their help.

 

He is really working on it. Things are getting better. I'm trying really hard too. I think I still have feelings for the OM (various emotions) but I believe in time with NC those feelings will go away.

If I can just get the physical intimacy I crave, we will make it. I feel like my H is my best friend again. This authenticity of self is something I am thinking of a lot. I am myself now more with my H. I'm trying to figure out a way to discuss our sexual problems.

[xxoo]

Interesting to note that most BS's believe he's "acting differently" when he's out with OW/OM, but acting "normally" at home because they've known him for years...and the OW/OM claim that he's acting "authentically" with them but "differently" at home.

 

In truth...I'd expect that they're showing BOTH SIDES what each side wants/needs to see in order to continue on with the status quo.

 

In other words...both parties only know/see what the MM/MW wants them to know/see.

 

The best judge of "who is the real Slim Shady?" might be someone other than the spouse or the AP. Maybe a long term coworker or business partner, or maybe a 20+ year best friend. Which persona do they recognize? Which persona is a stranger to them?

[xxoo]

I agree to disagree. I don't believe a person can be a truer or authentic self if that means having to be that in secrecy.

 

I just call that cake eating.

 

I agree, that makes no sense.

 

Indulging in escapism--moments, or even an entire relationship, where you turn away from your responsibilities and life choices--is not living authentically.

[xxoo]

With me he has dared to be a partner in life rather than the perfect caring and providing husband.

 

Has he?

 

To whom is he a partner?

[Got it]

Bell,

 

I find it extremely sad that a person feels like they can't be their true self with their marriage partner. Your spouse is supposed to be your partner in all the problems life throws at you and love you for who you are.

 

Fast forward to the day when your parents are dead. Your spouse is your family, and is supposed to have your best interests at heart. Especially when you become elderly and need their help.

 

It isn't about who one can be authentic with but whom one chooses to be authentic with.

 

I know by then end I was not with my spouse. There was a history of showing sides of me that were diminished or put down and so over time I just didn't bother. I stopped caring what he thought or felt or need of his approval. We had separate lives and while we intersected in some areas who I was, at my core, wasn't something I choose to show him. I recognized that prior even to the marriage that I had a friend that new sides of me that he didn't. He wasn't like that so he wouldn't have understood and at that age I didnt' realize how vital that disconnect was. We were high school sweethearts, basically I was an idiot.

 

But, that wasn't a major deal for me for many years, it was just an aside that while recognized has a pin in it but life continued to move forward. It was as time continued on the chasm grew there and attempts to close it were not welcomed (therapy, etc). We has a good status quo so he didn't see the point in rocking the boat.

 

I recognized in my last year, prior to the affair, that I no longer liked him for who he was. I was done trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and who was I to expect him to change. I found acceptance with it but I also found my tipping point. I wanted to be with someone where I could be me.

 

I recognized that with dMM. I could show all sides of me and it wasn't too much for him, too overwhelming, too Got it! That acceptance meant a lot to me. I didn't have to tailor or soften myself for him like I did for my ex.

 

Unlike Carhill's statement that one could be the most authentic when they cared the least, I have not followed suit because being fully me is a vulnerability that I do not want to show to just anyone. I have no reason to do so with my ex, one because it would do no good, two I didnt' want to hurt his feelings, and three there was no purpose as I was done and had no interest in rehashing or discussing things.

 

I understood that dMM may not be showing me who he was but I got to see him in his professional setting, etc. to where I felt it was a fairly good assessment that he walked his talk. I have learned over time and the continuing relationship that he has stayed pretty consistent.

[beenburned]

If you can't be your authentic self in your marriage, then get a divorce.

 

Belle,

Keep up the work of opening up yourself emotionally to your H, so the intimacy will continue to grow!

[Bellechica]

If you can't be your authentic self in your marriage, then get a divorce.

 

Belle,

Keep up the work of opening up yourself emotionally to your H, so the intimacy will continue to grow!

 

We both are opening up some. At least the conversations are going beyond grocery store lists, social plans, kids, etc. I feel like we are sharing fears and hopes, and feelings. We hadn't had talks like that in so long. It's a real start.

Thanks, we both want our M to be better. I wish I had been stronger, more persistent, and more authentic with him before I cheated because I wouldn't have done it.

[seren]

I wonder how many BS when speaking to the AP have heard, 'but I know him'. I heard this from the OW and almost laughed so hard I nearly fell off my chair. Really? so why are you so shocked he has told me about you and not contacted you? I asked, as I knew H was a conflict avoider type, I knew him to be this way some 23 years before the A when we met. I knew him to be this way throughout our marriage, he knew it about himself and we both knew why. yet the OW, with whom he had shared short moments in a motel and telephone text messaging, knew better. I can understand that she knew the person H was when he was with her, to be frank, had I known that version of H he would have been out of the door some 23 yrs before, giftwrapped.

 

OW would say things about her H to my H, like, he spends all his time in front of the television. H said, but that is what I do, he doesn't want to go out to the pub, H said, neither do I. The person she saw was not the man who sat opposite me in his trackkie bottoms with his little buddha belly sticking over it, snoring. I loved that man, buddha belly and all. His idiosyncracy's were hidden from her, they drove me mad at times, but were part and parcel of my H.

 

Neither did she see the H who would run downstairs and light the fire so the room would be warm for me, who ran my bath, scrubbed my back, liked a massage in front of the fire, danced with me in our kitchen, shared our in jokes, our funny nicknames for each other and all the thousand and one things that are shared between long term partners and that make us who we are to each other. All those things were the bit of us that made reconciliation possible. OW knew nothing about his debts he run up due to gambling when he had PTSD, had seen him cry, had shared his pride in our son. I think on balance if the knowing was based upon their brief meetings against the day to day, over the years, shared knowing of each other, then she knew him very little.

 

It isn't a competition, those A's where the WS left pretty quickly and ended up with the AP show to me that the marriage had broken down and that while the WS and his wife knew each other, they didn't like what they knew. I am glad I knew and know my H the way I do. I have no respect for the person he was during the A, neither has he. I know him to be an honourable, truthful man, which, except for the time of the A he has been and is. If I were in any relationship that knowingly relied on lies being told to maintain it, I wouldn't believe anything I was presented with. Business, personal or otherwise.

Edited May 18, 2012 by seren

[Summer Breeze]

I knew him as an acquaintance. I knew some of his family at the same time. I was close to a few members of his family and heard little things about him the same way as I heard about other people in that family. We met at a few functions and became friendly but no lines being crossed. We had a moment we ignored for a long time after. Then we didn't. He was himself through everything and never wavered. I didn't know all the things he did for her daily and I didn't care. I cared about how he treated me and the things we did for each other. She had a history with someone and they were what they were. I have no idea if he was being authentic with her. I started my time with him and that's the man I knew. He was what he had always been with her and he was the same person I'd known for more than a few years. I don't think he was purposely trying to be 'authentic' with her or with me. In their R he was what he was and in ours he was what he was. I honestly didn't want the R they had. Even if we got together I wouldn't have wanted that R. In the context I knew him I knew him better than she did and in the context she knew him she knew him better than I did.

[Got it]

i don't know about someone in an affair being "authentic" (?) what does "authentic' even mean?

 

If being authentic means being true to oneself, then perhaps the only time w person in an affair is being authentic would be when they admit they are just in the affair to have their needs met and have no intention of leaving their marriage because they are too frightened, happy, or just plain lazy to do so. That's honest and authentic. they are haooy having their needs met by two ( or more) different people, and they are being authentic by continuing both ( or all) the relationships.

 

An affair where the married person says they want to leave their spouse but can't because of x, y and z doesn't sound very authentic to me. Sounds more like lying. Being "authentic" would mean that they either divorced their spouse or they told the truth about why they are in the affair.

 

can you really know someone who is not being "authentic ? damned if I know, but I doubt it.

 

I don't see why not leaving the marriage for a reason, i.e. the kids means one is not be authentic and thusly means you can't know a person.

 

I just don't know, in any circumstance, really how well do we know others period? It takes someone knowing themselves and that is a journey through life. How well do I know myself? Do I know what makes me tick? Really? I don't know. I think I do but I do continue to learn new things about myself.

[Radagast]

Interesting to note that most BS's believe he's "acting differently" when he's out with OW/OM, but acting "normally" at home because they've known him for years...and the OW/OM claim that he's acting "authentically" with them but "differently" at home.

 

In truth...I'd expect that they're showing BOTH SIDES what each side wants/needs to see in order to continue on with the status quo.

 

In other words...both parties only know/see what the MM/MW wants them to know/see.

 

I think this is true. I wanted my ex-wife to see only the dutiful father and husband and home handyman and wage earner and mechanic because that was all she was prepared to accept in the relationship. Had I shown her any other sides of me I would have faced ridicule and rejection and belittling and public mockery and a great deal of anger. I learned this through bitter experience.

 

I wanted my then-lover to see all of me, the heights I wanted to reach, the dark sides I kept hidden for so long, the quirky sides that would not have been understood or appreciated, the sides that struggled with compliance for so long. I wanted her to see all of me and love me or hate me but at least give me an honest opinion on the man who had been locked up for so long he barely recognised his own face. And yes, in many ways it was "low stakes", because if she rejected me I'd have lost nothing more than I had already been told: that only some of me was acceptable and the rest should be starved of oxygen and left to wither.

[Radagast]

Well it seems to me that the whole problem is that the WS's perception is that they can not be their authentic self with the BS.(which is probably wrong)

(or just another excuse for cheating in the first place)

 

This seems to be based on the fear of rejection by the BS if she/he knew the real person that the WS is.

 

It is often a perception borne of reality. It certainly was in my case. I was told often enough what was and was not acceptable, it was not about being a mind reader or not giving my ex-wife the chance to test drive the real me. There'd been enough chances, enough consistent feedback for me to have learned pretty well and yes, of course it was conflict avoidant! Nobody seeks conflict if they've been told repeatedly that something is unwanted and unaccepted unless they are seeking to be perverse.

[Radagast]

The best judge of "who is the real Slim Shady?" might be someone other than the spouse or the AP. Maybe a long term coworker or business partner, or maybe a 20+ year best friend. Which persona do they recognize? Which persona is a stranger to them?

 

This is an interesting take. The reason so many of my friends and colleagues were only prepared to socialise with me on my own and not with me and my ex-wife as a couple was precisely because they did not recognise or like who I was when I was around her. That meek, mousey little man staring at his shoes was not the person they knew me as and they felt very uncomfortable seeing me that way. My family felt the same way but even more strongly since there were other issues involved there as well.

 

One of the most heartwrenching things was hearing my sister say after I'd left my marriage and was living with my lover that she felt that she'd finally gotten her brother back. They felt I'd been frozen in ice for decades and that it took the love of my wife to thaw me out and bring me back to life.

[wellwhynot]

I don't see why not leaving the marriage for a reason, i.e. the kids means one is not be authentic and thusly means you can't know a person.

 

I just don't know, in any circumstance, really how well do we know others period? It takes someone knowing themselves and that is a journey through life. How well do I know myself? Do I know what makes me tick? Really? I don't know. I think I do but I do continue to learn new things about myself.

 

I think this point made is key. People change and people are often no longer a fit, what happens when the person you got involved with early in life bears little to no resemblence to the person you have married? What if you no longer even like them?

It does happen.

And some say "why not leave" as if it's a simple answer, but it's really not that simple, especially if no one has done anything "wrong" but it's simply a matter of growing apart. People stop being themselves, stop letting their spouse or long term partner with who they no longer connect see who they are becoming as they grow.

 

I think this is true. I wanted my ex-wife to see only the dutiful father and husband and home handyman and wage earner and mechanic because that was all she was prepared to accept in the relationship. Had I shown her any other sides of me I would have faced ridicule and rejection and belittling and public mockery and a great deal of anger. I learned this through bitter experience.

 

I wanted my then-lover to see all of me, the heights I wanted to reach, the dark sides I kept hidden for so long, the quirky sides that would not have been understood or appreciated, the sides that struggled with compliance for so long. I wanted her to see all of me and love me or hate me but at least give me an honest opinion on the man who had been locked up for so long he barely recognised his own face. And yes, in many ways it was "low stakes", because if she rejected me I'd have lost nothing more than I had already been told: that only some of me was acceptable and the rest should be starved of oxygen and left to wither.

 

^^^ This.

[beenburned]

Rad,

 

I am curious just what it was about you that your wife thought it was unwanted, unaccepted, or perverse?

 

What had you hidden from your wife that you shared with the OW?

[Radagast]

I still stand by what I say. For every affair partner who says " I know my married man/woman" there is a wife/husband at home who says " I know my spouse"...

 

If the married person is too afraid or too lazy to tell their spouse about their new selves , I can understand that, but it is on them, and no one else.

 

I really don't think that either party truly knows what is going on in the mind of a wayward spouse, as much as they might like to think they do.

 

If you try telling your spouse but they poo-poo you and tell you not to be ridiculous, if you try communicating but get shut down at every turn; if you get belittled and put down in public and in front of your kids often enough it's not about being "too lazy" or "too afraid", it's about learning that some things are unwanted and inconceivable in your spouse's mind and learning that they are not interested in knowing those other sides of you. So I would say that that is on both spouses, the one who signals their intolerance and the one who accepts that that is the only way they will be acceptable to their spouse.

 

And I think my now-wife had a pretty good idea of what was going on in my mind, because I told her and she listened.

[Radagast]

Rad,

 

I am curious just what it was about you that your wife thought it was unwanted, unaccepted, or perverse?

 

What had you hidden from your wife that you shared with the OW?

 

It was so many things. Small things, like the kind of music I enjoyed (my ex-wife would only tolerate classical music being played in the house because everything else was "trash") or the kind of activities I would choose to spend time doing, the kind of books I enjoyed reading, the films I liked, etc as well as much bigger things like where I wanted to be in five years time, what scared me, what drove me, what turned me on, what turned me off, what I enjoyed sexually and what I'd like to try sexually, what I liked about myself and what I disliked about myself, what I thought of our marriage and about our children, what kept me awake at night, what gave me pleasure... stuff like that. As well as stories about my past, anything about my family, and heaven forbid I make a joke! That was unacceptable!