Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I wonder, since some guys want things 50/50 in money, if they are looking to date women that are 50/50 in looks and age? Like okay, so money and expenses should be split down the middle, then a man and woman should also be the same age and looks because we want everything to be equal right? So guys, if you are one of those guys that certainly want money to be 50/50, then don't look to younger or hotter women then yourself to date and don't advice other guys to date younger and hotter women either. After all, everything need to be 100% equal and the same so that no one is getting an undo "advantage".

[Els]

I wonder, since some guys want things 50/50 in money, if they are looking to date women that are 50/50 in looks and age? Like okay, so money and expenses should be split down the middle, then a man and woman should also be the same age and looks because we want everything to be equal right? So guys, if you are one of those guys that certainly want money to be 50/50, then don't look to younger or hotter women then yourself to date and don't advice other guys to date younger and hotter women either. After all, everything need to be 100% equal and the same so that no one is getting an undo "advantage".

 

Some of the guys here (the ones who want to split the bill and are also successful with women instead of bitter at them) have said things to this effect, yes.

[Sanman]

I wonder, since some guys want things 50/50 in money, if they are looking to date women that are 50/50 in looks and age? Like okay, so money and expenses should be split down the middle, then a man and woman should also be the same age and looks because we want everything to be equal right? So guys, if you are one of those guys that certainly want money to be 50/50, then don't look to younger or hotter women then yourself to date and don't advice other guys to date younger and hotter women either. After all, everything need to be 100% equal and the same so that no one is getting an undo "advantage".

 

 

I have dated older and younger, less attractive and more attractive. Really, that has little to do with paying on dates for me. It is not as if I expect that if I am better looking and/or younger (I have been in both situations), I expect the woman to pay for me. The idea here is that we are two people getting to know each other. I am prepared to do the same with a perspective date as I would with a newer friend or acquaintance.

 

As for those that don't get the importance of this conversation, the reason it means a lot to me is not simply about a few dates. Sure, it is annoying to pay for magician-like women that know how to vanish. However, this is about more than that. This, to me, sets the financial tone for the relationship. Someone who splits things 50/50 is more likely to take on financial decisions in the relationship as well. Being from an upper middle class family and community, I see many women who avoid worrying about finances all the time. even while they might build a career, they will spend all their money on shoes/clothes, apartments they cannot truly afford, and luxury cars they are barely able to keep and are not necessary. They want the big house, the best schools for their future kids, and not to work until those kids are at least in school. However, they want these things without being a true financial partner and understanding the consequences of their decisions. I have seen this in early dates when women suggest restaurants or venues they want to attend without even knowing the prices of the menu or tickets or simply not caring despite not having the income to live such a lifestyle (see what I wrote about my ex in the post above).

[zengirl]

As for those that don't get the importance of this conversation, the reason it means a lot to me is not simply about a few dates. Sure, it is annoying to pay for magician-like women that know how to vanish. However, this is about more than that. This, to me, sets the financial tone for the relationship. Someone who splits things 50/50 is more likely to take on financial decisions in the relationship as well.

 

Hmm. I'm not sure if this is necessarily something I'd agree with. I feel no need for the level of calculation and refusal of generosity it would take to split things 50/50 on early dates (that doesn't mean I'm not willing and able to pay for myself, though I was not on some dates where I actively told the guy I was seeing, "I can't afford that place, sorry!" and he said not to worry about it), nor did I pay 50% of the early dating expenses with my husband, but I make the majority of the financial decisions. Not without Hubby, but he cedes a lot to me because I'm better with money than he is and he doesn't like dealing with that stuff.

 

Being from an upper middle class family and community, I see many women who avoid worrying about finances all the time. even while they might build a career, they will spend all their money on shoes/clothes, apartments they cannot truly afford, and luxury cars they are barely able to keep and are not necessary.

 

I met many men like that, too, though it's more often electronics and cars and apartments, rather than adding in shoes and such. You don't date men, so perhaps did not. Even Hubby veers dangerously close in some areas to your description. He has decent financial health, but not great. I think that's a different consideration, though a much more important one, to make sure you are financially compatible long-term. With Hubby, even though he could be a wasteful spender, he was happy to be shown ways he could save better, and I was happy to be with someone who could crack me out of my austerity and perhaps convince me to live a little more. We found balance. But someone who was content spending above his/her means with no care towards consequences would've been a bad match for me.

 

This comes down to something you've brought up before (in other threads and later in this post) which I find more relevant than who pays for the tacos and beer: People who seek luxury should not be with those who are content with hole in the walls. And I understand especially that someone who seeks luxury and wants YOU to pay for it would be tedious. Generally, I've never dated a man who had cheaper tastes than I (mainly because I'm quite frugal) and most of the men I know LIKE splurging on entertainment, within reason. I'm not going to try to match that just so we can match up to some 50/50 calculation, especially if we make disparate amounts anyway.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't think that elements of attraction, like how old someone is or what they look like, are in the same category as financial stuff.

 

We like what we like. In my view, we have to be attracted to the person AND have similar values about money, who pays for what, balance of work outside and inside home, etc.

 

I'm not a proponent of all this "date your equivalent" stuff. If you like people who are younger or hotter or thinner than you are, and you can find some who like you back - go for it.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Some of the guys here (the ones who want to split the bill and are also successful with women instead of bitter at them) have said things to this effect, yes.

 

Who said this Elswyth?

 

But if we want all things equal, then people who have the same educations should only date each other. After all, we want things to be fair. And people that have the same jobs that pay the same amount of money should date one another only......

[Sanman]

Hmm. I'm not sure if this is necessarily something I'd agree with. I feel no need for the level of calculation and refusal of generosity it would take to split things 50/50 on early dates (that doesn't mean I'm not willing and able to pay for myself, though I was not on some dates where I actively told the guy I was seeing, "I can't afford that place, sorry!" and he said not to worry about it), nor did I pay 50% of the early dating expenses with my husband, but I make the majority of the financial decisions. Not without Hubby, but he cedes a lot to me because I'm better with money than he is and he doesn't like dealing with that stuff.

 

It is not to say that all women who are payed for on early dates do not have financial skills/awareness, but it is rare that those that do pay (and it does not have to be a perfect 50/50 split) would all of sudden expect to be taken care of later on and begin to lack the financial awareness they already had earlier in the relationship. Sure there are some that pay and are frivolous with money, but it is a rare thing. My ex was like that, but she only paid because I would not cover her extravagant lifestyle. She preferred that I pay for the whole thing. I have dated a woman who insisted that restaurants were not good enough for her on an early date as she wanted to be swept off her feet and 'wooed'(when I innocuously mentioned there was an awesome diner very near where we were). Some women still want a man to do things like ruin a perfectly good jacket covering a puddle when she could easily step around it. That is life

 

Of course, there are men like that as well. However, due to social convention being what it is, women do not have to worry about supporting someone like that if they do not want and will not have to in the beginning of a relationship. They may want to worry about his spending habits if they decide to seriously attach themselves though. What you mention about needing to find someone who prefers a similar lifestyle, I completely agree with that.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Sanman

I have dated older and younger, less attractive and more attractive. Really, that has little to do with paying on dates for me.

 

So you are an equal oppurtunity dater. But many men look to actively date and be with younger, hotter women. At the same time they dislike having any expectations placed on them regarding matters of money. A lot of men claim they are looking for things to be equal. But that's not really the case. They just don't want women to require any expectations of them. It appears to me that today men want less responsbility and want to lay more responsibility on others to escape having responsibility for other people.

 

Did you keep track of what you monetarily gave the women you daeted to make sure things equaled out? Did you keep track of what these women monetarily gave you so that things equaled out? If so, how did you keep track?

 

The reality is that we all individually get to choose what works for us. But just because one person has a different belief system about dating then another, doesn't mean they aren't treating that other person with equality or don't know how to make financial choices.

 

It is not as if I expect that if I am better looking and/or younger (I have been in both situations), I expect the woman to pay for me. The idea here is that we are two people getting to know each other. I am prepared to do the same with a perspective date as I would with a newer friend or acquaintance.

 

And that's fine. You know what kind of woman you are looking for. And there are plenty of women that will want to be the way you described. But when I date, I am not looking to be treated like a buddy. I'm looking for someone that is a gentlemen as I define it. I'm not looking to be treated like a friend with the potential to f*ck.

 

Being from an upper middle class family and community, I see many women who avoid worrying about finances all the time. even while they might build a career, they will spend all their money on shoes/clothes, apartments they cannot truly afford, and luxury cars they are barely able to keep and are not necessary.

 

I'm curious what your idea of upper middle class is.

 

I've seen plenty of men play the same game Sanman. Men that wasted money on cars, tvs, high-tech gadgets, vacations and boys weekends. Debt isn't a female problem. It's genderless.

 

They want the big house, the best schools for their future kids, and not to work until those kids are at least in school. However, they want these things without being a true financial partner and understanding the consequences of their decisions.

 

Yes, I am sure that happens. However, it sounds like you are talking about very specific women that have lead realitively easy lives finacially. They probably are well maintained themselves, well groomed and attractive. Most of the women I know, are struggling to keep their home and raise their families. To me, it sounds like you are describing women on those popular Housewives shows. In my life, that is so outside what most real life women experience. Well most women in the real world don't have the luxaries you described. So to me, it sounds like you are talking about a very specific kind of woman that isn't even the norm to begin with.

 

But I will say this, while the type of woman you described may use clothes and fancy things as a barometer for success. I have seen some men use the attractiveness of their partner and their own cash much the same way. Men that flash cash, not sexy. Men that brag about how much hotter and younger their wives/gfs are (and I've heard this alot from men. I've never heard of a woman brag about being uglier and fatter then their partner but I've heard alot of guys do this), not sexy. Men that generously give their time and resources because they really want to give it, very sexy. That's the difference.

 

I have seen this in early dates when women suggest restaurants or venues they want to attend without even knowing the prices of the menu or tickets or simply not caring despite not having the income to live such a lifestyle (see what I wrote about my ex in the post above).

 

I can see that being a problem. And I wouldn't think being with a woman that expects these things and wants someone to throw all kinds of cash her way is healthy. But I don't think most women are looking for that. I think most women just want to be treated with kindness and generocity. As I am sure men do. But part of that is still judged with how a man handles his cash himself. Despite the social shift to make men and women seem all the same, there are still reasons women look to men and if he is a good supporter.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I don't think that elements of attraction, like how old someone is or what they look like, are in the same category as financial stuff.

 

Well I do. I think that if we are going to talk about things being 50/50, then why shouldn't it also apply to age and looks or even education? If paying should be 50/50, then each person should only get in a partner what they themselves can give. This is in essense what is being said. And when things don't match, the argument things that one side is basically getting automatically shafted. I don't agree with that but that's the undercurrent to to the mentality.

 

 

We like what we like. In my view, we have to be attracted to the person AND have similar values about money, who pays for what, balance of work outside and inside home, etc.

 

I'm not a proponent of all this "date your equivalent" stuff. If you like people who are younger or hotter or thinner than you are, and you can find some who like you back - go for it.

 

I agree. I don't think things need to match tit for tat. I think if you are fat and old and have chemistry and respect with someone young and thin, have fun. If you are rich and someone is poor, have fun. If you don't have any college education and the person you like does, go for it. If you want men to pay for dates, and find a man that enjoys paying for a date, go for it. If you're a man that doesn't want to pay for dates, then find a woman that is happy with that.

 

But if that's what everyone thought, there would be no thread at all about these subjects. We kind of what other people to adopt our beliefs and support the way we personally think. Which is why these boards have "like" features.

[Els]

Who said this Elswyth?

 

But if we want all things equal, then people who have the same educations should only date each other. After all, we want things to be fair. And people that have the same jobs that pay the same amount of money should date one another only......

 

It's a personal decision. That's the whole point. We don't make it for 'other people'. We get to make decisions for our own relationships, only.

 

Sanman and kaylan, to the best of my knowledge, have alluded that they do not expect things of women that they do not do themselves, just because they are women. They don't believe that the girl has to look more attractive than them. They don't believe that older men are entitled to younger women because older men are of 'higher value' than older women. Sanman has said that he enjoys 'tomboyish' women and doesn't really care about them doing girly stuff like wearing heels, and kaylan has said that he expects to spend as much time maintaining his own appearance as any woman he dates. Both of these are very admirable attitudes, and go well with the personal choice of going dutch.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

It's a personal decision. That's the whole point. We don't make it for 'other people'. We get to make decisions for our own relationships, only.

 

Sanman and kaylan, to the best of my knowledge, have alluded that they do not expect things of women that they do not do themselves, just because they are women. They don't believe that the girl has to look more attractive than them. They don't believe that older men are entitled to younger women because older men are of 'higher value' than older women. Sanman has said that he enjoys 'tomboyish' women and doesn't really care about them doing girly stuff like wearing heels, and kaylan has said that he expects to spend as much time maintaining his own appearance as any woman he dates. Both of these are very admirable attitudes, and go well with the personal choice of going dutch.

 

Right, and I agree that Kaylan is pretty fair minded and it's admirable for his dating style. But just because I like a different dating style doesn't make my personal choices any less admirable in my opinion.

 

I haven't paid enough attentoin to Sanman's posts but I take your word for it. However, you hear a lot of the discussions around here an a lot of advice other men give to people on age related threads and the likes of that. My point still stands despite there being two guys that are all about the 50-50 equal thing.

[Els]

Right, and I agree that Kaylan is pretty fair minded and it's admirable for his dating style. But just because I like a different dating style doesn't make my personal choices any less admirable in my opinion.

 

I didn't say that your personal choices are any less admirable, DY. All I said was that 'yes, there are men who genuinely want ALL things to be equal, not just the things that suit them', in response to your post about men.

 

I haven't paid enough attentoin to Sanman's posts but I take your word for it. However, you hear a lot of the discussions around here an a lot of advice other men give to people on age related threads and the likes of that. My point still stands despite there being two guys that are all about the 50-50 equal thing.

 

Well, yes, and that is why those other men mostly tend to be posting bitter 'she made me!' comments on threads like this, yes? People get what they fish for. If a guy applies these sorts of double standards to his own life, the person paying for it (and I do mean metaphorically) will just be his own self.

[D-Lish]

I had a date tonight, and I didn't feel any chemistry. He was so adamant that he pay, but I didn't want him to get any wrong ideas and I certainly didn't want him to think that allowing him to pay meant I owed him anything. I ended up convincing him to allow me to pay half. He still tried to make out with me and we had this embarrassing scene on the sidewalk with him going in for the unsolicited kiss and me doing the duck and back-peddle.

[zengirl]

It is not to say that all women who are payed for on early dates do not have financial skills/awareness, but it is rare that those that do pay (and it does not have to be a perfect 50/50 split) would all of sudden expect to be taken care of later on and begin to lack the financial awareness they already had earlier in the relationship.

 

The bolded is really important to my point. People who pound for equality and 50/50 and say women shouldn't accept the guy's offer to cover dinner and so forth are really what I take issue with. If someone were to say, "You know, it bugs me when a woman doesn't offer to pay for anything on a date with me," I would take no issue. That would be wrong - people should certainly offer to pay for themselves. However, when people complain about women allowing men who offer (and in my experience, MOST men do offer and many insist! Of course, I have no statistics on the subject) to do what they offered to do, and thanking them for it, I don't get or like that complaint.

 

I also don't get the complaint about women liking it. OF COURSE when someone does something generous and nice, I'm going to like it (unless I don't like the person - then it just makes me uncomfortable and I decline). Who doesn't like when people do nice things? I really feel like the defensive attitude of, "I can do everything myself!" is harmful to society, whether it's a man or a woman trying to do everything alone. I'm not into gender roles --- I'm just into people doing nice, generous things.

 

I would agree that perhaps a woman who never OFFERED to pay on any early dates is showing some lacking financial responsibility OR just had an idea about gender roles on early dates OR just had low interest in the guy, but whether or not she actually shelled out any cash has as much to do with the man in the equation as it does with her.

 

Some women still want a man to do things like ruin a perfectly good jacket covering a puddle when she could easily step around it. That is life

 

You know I know that's an old timey thing, but I don't even get how that would be effective. Wouldn't the jacket just sink into the puddle as she stepped on it anyway?

 

Of course, there are men like that as well. However, due to social convention being what it is, women do not have to worry about supporting someone like that if they do not want and will not have to in the beginning of a relationship. They may want to worry about his spending habits if they decide to seriously attach themselves though. What you mention about needing to find someone who prefers a similar lifestyle, I completely agree with that.

 

Many women DO support men these days, and honestly even for awhile now. There's total sexy deadbeat syndrome out there. Plenty of men who ask their girlfriends or wives for money or are kept. And I don't mean just the actual SAHH -- nothing wrong with a SAH Hubby at all, just as nothing wrong with a SAHW -- but the guys who still think their bands are going to make it, etc, etc, who just can't get their **** together without someone else covering their lifestyle and don't really fully contribute to the partnership in other ways either. I'm against partners who aren't partners, though I don't think you can really measure that with money, but I wouldn't imagine social convention is as powerful as you say. I see plenty of young women covering for both sexy deadbeats/users financially as well as paying more with nicer guys who make less (the latter I approve of, the former I don't because I'd not advocate men date the female equivalent of sexy deadbeats either!).

 

A lot of men claim they are looking for things to be equal. But that's not really the case. They just don't want women to require any expectations of them.

 

This is true, though I would say not true at all of a guy like Sanman. There are loads of people (women too) who want the world to just be skewed in their favor and to have no responsibility in their interactions or what they do and yet claim they want equality. I don't think that's a gender thing -- I think some people are just crap.

[maybealone]

Of course, there are men like that as well. However, due to social convention being what it is, women do not have to worry about supporting someone like that if they do not want and will not have to in the beginning of a relationship.

 

My husband was a 50-50 date splitter, and a 50-50 expense splitter when we lived together. Over the course of the marriage, he slacked off to the point of not working at all. So maybe when some men insist on a woman that pays equally, it's an indication that he isn't the type of person to take care of someone else. And I don't mean in the "My wife expects to never work" sense, I mean in the "If I'm unemployed for months and I have to work some crap job to put food on the table, I will do that because my family needs me to" sense.

 

But when I date, I am not looking to be treated like a buddy. I'm looking for someone that is a gentlemen as I define it. I'm not looking to be treated like a friend with the potential to f*ck.

 

Dating is different than building friendships -- it is about putting your best foot forward. It's those memories we cherish when life becomes all about taking out the trash and farting.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Quote:

Some women still want a man to do things like ruin a perfectly good jacket covering a puddle when she could easily step around it. That is life

 

You know I know that's an old timey thing, but I don't even get how that would be effective. Wouldn't the jacket just sink into the puddle as she stepped on it anyway?

 

You're right, it's an empty and useless gesture. It is a lot more effective when the man flings himself down upon the puddle and allows the woman to tread atop his body. Preferably, while wearing spike heels. And, after he's paid for the date.

[Els]

Honest to god, I have never, ever, ever seen the jacket on puddle thing IRL. Am I missing out?

[d'Arthez]

Honest to god, I have never, ever, ever seen the jacket on puddle thing IRL. Am I missing out?

Only one way to find out .

 

Offering your jacket when it is cold (if you are having an outdoor date) is another simple gesture that can show you care and are thoughtful.

[Els]

Only one way to find out .

 

Offering your jacket when it is cold (if you are having an outdoor date) is another simple gesture that can show you care and are thoughtful.

 

Offering jackets when cold definitely makes a lot more sense than throwing a good jacket onto a puddle. Jackets are one of the things I rarely accept from the bf though, when he offers. I can't get past the fact that he probably has half the body fat % I do (and I'm not even overweight - that says a lot!), so he definitely needs the jacket waaay more than I do.

[DuchessKaye]

 

Offering your jacket when it is cold (if you are having an outdoor date) is another simple gesture that can show you care and are thoughtful.

 

Sweetest gesture ever! Could melt my heart...

 

As for the paying for dates issue...

I admire guys who doesn't know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Men, just pay for early dates and stop whining about it.

Women can be generous in return... eventually!

[d'Arthez]

I'd happily offer. Some people can stand the cold better than others. I am one of those people, and your bf might be one as well Elswyth. My ex used to take me up on the offer, and despite wearing my jacket, she could feel that I was still warmer than her at the end of the date.

 

But it is the gesture that counts.

Edited June 16, 2012 by d'Arthez

[Els]

I'd happily offer. Some people can stand the cold better than others. I am one of those people, and your bf might be one as well. My ex used to take me up on the offer, and despite wearing my jacket, she could feel that I was still warmer than her at the end of the date.

 

But it is the gesture that counts.

 

Definitely the gesture matters; I feel all warm and fuzzy inside when he offers. It's just one of those things I have trouble accepting from him though - I certainly take him up on his generosity in other ways.

[dasein]

Men, just pay for early dates and stop whining about it.

 

I guess people shouldn't "whine about" any social institution that is discriminatory, right? Or is it just discriminatory social institutions that favor women that we shouldn't whine about?

 

Random gestures of kindness and generosity such as offering a coat or holding a chair have nothing to do with an established, pervasive social institution of paying money favoring one gender and disfavoring the other. It's interesting that as much whining as women do here about imaginary sexual double standards and other things, double standards such as "he pays for early dates" that actually exist, cost men thousands over the average dating career, and are zero sum in benefitting women thousands in their social lives, are somehow no big deal. Privilege.

 

That many women expect all the benefits they received in the past with none of the responsibilities or accountability is a fact that this thread and others prove handily, and the ones who recognize that equality entails... equality will be treated equally. As for the hypocrites? Not so much. Reasonable people, both men and women, are waking up to the types of women who simply seek more and more advantage at the detriment of others, and thank goodness for the internet speeding that waking up.

[Mme. Chaucer]

People, both men and women, are waking up to the types of women who simply seek more and more advantage at the detriment of others, and thank goodness for the internet speeding that waking up.

 

Who would want to date such women? No guys I know.

 

There are creepy advantage-takers in the world, no doubt. Some of us get sucked in by them. "Thank goodness" that as we live and learn, we discover how to spot avoid them. And, move on to have happy, fun, loving relationships that may or may not include the man paying for dates. Depending upon the opinions of the people involved. No Internet or placard waving, ranting and raging required!

[Els]

Who would want to date such women? No guys I know.

 

There are creepy advantage-takers in the world, no doubt. Some of us get sucked in by them. "Thank goodness" that as we live and learn, we discover how to spot avoid them. And, move on to have happy, fun, loving relationships that may or may not include the man paying for dates. Depending upon the opinions of the people involved. No Internet or placard waving, ranting and raging required!

 

I'm still tickled by the fact that he thinks it's NORMAL for a man to spend thousands in early dates alone throughout his 'entire dating career'...