Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[dasein]

Those are good points. Men are responsible for the continuance of the convention as much as women are, and yes, as long as guys are seeking sex, they will throw money at women in said pursuit. There's always another guy ready to try to win women over by buying them in the defacto prostitution arrangement. The puzzle remains though, as to how any woman who seeks equality could either want this, accept such, or even rationalize it?

 

I would think women who claim to be enlightened, independent, self-sufficient and equal would abhor this type of defacto prostitution arrangement, or anything that resembles it, such as a relative stranger of a man buying her things, food, drinks, whatever. Otherwise, I can't reconcile them as other than inconsistent hypocrites who have no interest in true equality.

 

Estimate my total exposure to the gentleman tax, in both dating and early relationships, as 50k at least over the years, without interest or investment. Despite the strawmanning here, I don't resent spending that money, it was my choice after all. But that doesn't prevent a conclusion that the standard is a huge cost to men, benefit to women, and wrong generally in a supposedly "equal" society where women have no trouble at all parroting bogus stats about "wage gaps" without a moment's thought, and will adamantly resist facts demonstrating there is no wage gap. Again, women's issues = important to women, men's issues = they don't give a sh-t.

[Els]

because there's always going to be a man or men for whom fµcking was more important than social dynamics or 'revolutions'

 

Just curious, C, what about the guys who want to pay but don't want to ****.. or at least not so early on? Most of the guys I've been with have been that way, so I never understood the 'they all do it to ****' assertion.

 

Edit: Oh, I wondered why yours wasn't censored but mine was, then just realized you used a miu instead! What's the alt + num combination for that? It's an awesome workaround.

[carhill]

Just curious, C, what about the guys who want to pay but don't want to ****.. or at least not so early on? Most of the guys I've been with have been that way, so I never understood the 'they all do it to ****' assertion.

 

IMO, and relevant to the topic too, there is a wide range of 'norm's and behaviors, specific to geography and culture. What might be the norm in my demographic could be completely alien in another culture or country or age group. That you experienced/experience commonly what is a relative rarity in my demographic underscores this. I can't recall one instance over the decades, whether related by a man or a woman personally to my ears, of such courting behaviors. The women tended to be more graphic than the men and it has been universally women who have commented that my style is/was anomalous ('odd' was the word commonly used) in our demographic. Men generally don't comment on such things unless one is pretty tight (close friends) since we're (in my area) generally one or two perceived insults away from a brawl

 

Edit: Oh, I wondered why yours wasn't censored but mine was, then just realized you used a miu instead! What's the alt + num combination for that? It's an awesome workaround.

 

µ = option + M on my Mac

[Mme. Chaucer]

I can't believe that a person calling another person "cheap" is seriously being considered potentially "slanderous."

 

It even has a new word ascribed to it: "cheap-called"???

 

 

Have mercy!

 

And calling a man cheap might be "discriminatory"?

 

No! Stop! You're killing me here!

 

Especially coming from the very fellow who spews insulting, denigrating or even hateful language referring to women in many of the (very lengthy!) sentences he constructs! Trashing women seems to be your main hobby and interest, as far as I can tell. But go for it!

 

Why, you just called two perfectly nice looking women who you deemed to be experts on whatever "tarts." "TART-CALLING." Bad!

 

And there has been a mass of "HYPOCRITE-CALLING" going on here, some of it directed at ME! I'm not a hypocrite!

 

LIBEL!!!

 

And, don't forget - in order for something to be slanderous, it must be false. Maybe the guys who get "cheap-called" are … actually cheap guys.

 

Lots of people who are super preoccupied with spending their money really are, you know.

[carhill]

Again, women's issues = important to women, men's issues = they don't give a sh-t.

Since this 'paying for dates' appears to be a canary of wider implications, can I ask if you, as a young man, were cognizant of, perhaps focused on and supportive of the inroads women were attempting to making socially and economically at the time?

 

I recall my first exposure to such issues was through my mother, even though she chose the 'traditional' SAHM as a life path and found myself, historically, probably too immersed in and passionate about the 'plight' of the 'underdog', not even relevant to the mating dance, but in general. It was only later, after substantial experience, that I came to see my perspective as unhealthily skewed and, markedly after getting married, came to re-evaluate it and re-connect with men and men's issues.

 

I recall feeling much of what I read in your writings back in my mid-late 30's as I began the process of change and reflection. It was like a rubber band which bounced back and forth between extremes and settled somewhere in the middle, that middle today being I focus, if/when dating, more on 'getting to know' rather than 'who pays'. If I'm broke, WAM-wise, then it'll be a walk in the park and, if that isn't acceptable, OK. Back to work.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

Gotta go now. My husband is taking me out to dinner at the Chinese restaurant, and HE'S PAYING! Mwahahahaha!

 

 

By the way, my evil plan was thwarted. We did not go out for Chinese food. I ended up running down to the wings place and bringing them home. And I paid. foiled again.

[Els]

IMO, and relevant to the topic too, there is a wide range of 'norm's and behaviors, specific to geography and culture. What might be the norm in my demographic could be completely alien in another culture or country or age group. That you experienced/experience commonly what is a relative rarity in my demographic underscores this. I can't recall one instance over the decades, whether related by a man or a woman personally to my ears, of such courting behaviors. The women tended to be more graphic than the men and it has been universally women who have commented that my style is/was anomalous ('odd' was the word commonly used) in our demographic. Men generally don't comment on such things unless one is pretty tight (close friends) since we're (in my area) generally one or two perceived insults away from a brawl

 

 

 

µ = option + M on my Mac

 

Darn, I don't have a Mac. But I don't fancy single-button mice.

 

I agree completely about cultural differences. But I guess my point was, that there really are men who are paying not just because they feel obliged to or because they want that, uh, golden pu$$y ticket. I find the notion of younger men 'fighting for a standardized change' rather bemusing, because every man is different, and every man should feel free to do whatever he prefers.

 

 

By the way, my evil plan was thwarted. We did not go out for Chinese food. I ended up running down to the wings place and bringing them home. And I paid. foiled again.

 

I bought dinner for the bf a couple nights ago, too. What a poor, oppressed, subservient, and submissive man he must have been.

[d'Arthez]

I bought dinner for the bf a couple nights ago, too. What a poor, oppressed, subservient, and submissive man he must have been.

Doesn't he feel emasculated? Don't you feel unfeminine? What a sorry state of affairs. Before you know it he will be contemplating his pitiful existence, and hang his head in shame.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Doesn't he feel emasculated? Don't you feel unfeminine? What a sorry state of affairs. Before you know it he will be contemplating his pitiful existence' date=' and hang his head in shame.[/quote']

 

Wait … I thought that we were learning here that refusal to pay for dates was empowering for a man, a strong stance for justice, and a gesture towards a tremendous groundswell of crucial social change?

 

I bet my husband will be proud that he participated in such a movement, albeit unknowingly.

[Els]

Wait … I thought that we were learning here that refusal to pay for dates was empowering for a man, a strong stance for justice, and a gesture towards a tremendous groundswell of crucial social change?

 

I bet my husband will be proud that he participated in such a movement, albeit unknowingly.

 

Yes, but accepting someone's offer to pay makes the other person a weak, subservient, and submissive person. Those who are honest with themselves acknowledge that, all the others are hypocrites.

 

Oh, wait, that doesn't quite tie in with the crucial social change stuff, does it? I guess women who accept men's offers are the weak and subservient ones, and men who accept women's offers are empowered and part of the Great Movement for the Emancipation of Men. Who knew?

[d'Arthez]

Oh, wait, that doesn't quite tie in with the crucial social change stuff, does it? I guess women who accept men's offers are the weak and subservient ones, and men who accept women's offers are empowered and part of the Great Movement for the Emancipation of Men. Who knew?

I demand date offers now!

[Mme. Chaucer]

Okay.

 

I am having fun on this thread. I want to make something clear.

 

What I really stand for is this: People need to have the strength and the courage to stand up for themselves and act according to their true beliefs, as long as these are not destructive to other people.

 

I realize that it's not simple or easy to put aside societal norms in order to conduct yourself the way you believe is right for you.

 

I do understand that men might feel a pressure to pay for dates which they do not feel equipped to reject.

 

Women feel similar pressures around dating.

 

I sincerely encourage every person to NOT do things that are untrue to yourself because of social pressures.

 

But please, don't blame it on other people if you cannot manage to do this.

[Sanman]

I recall, around 20 years ago, taking a two year hiatus from dating and, instead, putting the money I had been spending on dating into Exxon stock. During that time, the account grew to nearly 3K, including dividends, later growing further as a 'rejection fund', receiving a typical dating cost every time a woman rejected my offers. I had originally earmarked it to help pay for a wedding ring should I ever meet someone but ultimately paid for that out of other funds. Most of that asset went to pay part of our MC bill. Yeah, dating, if you're a man who generally pays for the process, as I did, can be expensive, even in a low cost of living area such as where I live. It all adds up. I've been re-visiting that plan. Oil seems to be a lot more stable and appreciating than dating

 

 

A good point and one that I feel gets lost when people consider the true cost of dating. Personally, going on an average of 1 date a week costing anywhere from $25 for coffee/dessert to $50 for a cheap meal I likely spent about $2000 dollars a year. Like you, there were free museum and window shopping dates and others that cost substantially more with me paying for multiple activities. That is not including substantial transportation and other associated costs. Some dates were dutch and others were paid for by me (for the record I have never had a woman pay for any early date completely, even if she was the one that did the asking)

 

 

It is not simply about the 'gold diggers' that women often think it is. The fact is that dating, especially among 20 somethings, has changed dramatically. The advent of OLD and other forms of dating means dating happens a lot more often with people that you do not know nearly as well. Those changes need have accompanied more financial parity in some cases, but not in all cases. I have been friends with women who use dating as a tool to 'get back out there' after a bad relationship and figure that there 'is a free meal in it' if nothing else so why not. Would women make the same choices or have more reservations were they the ones expected to pay? It is often about a lack of the ability to really out oneself in the shoes of another and take their well-being into concern rather than just your own. More men and women seem to be lacking the ability to do this nowadays than in the past.

 

I do agree that even a few dozen good men taking a stand will do little to change the issue and there are many others ready to take their place. It will accomplish removing those men from the dating pool largely though. At the end of the day, those men make it harder for others to have their choice seen as admirable. The same often goes for women and sex. Those women that choose to have sex with men quickly make it more difficult for those that would choose to wait for a longer period getting to know someone, perhaps even until marriage. Those men may choose to get sex earlier and never give such a woman a chance.

[Els]

Would women make the same choices or have more reservations were they the ones expected to pay?

 

I can't speak for all women, of course, but for myself, absolutely, if it was something I felt strongly about. There are some things that women are 'expected' to do that I don't do, out of personal principle. Like yourself, that has narrowed my pool of options, but it is a choice I am unlikely to regret, since it only narrows my pool down to one of more compatible men anyhow.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I can't speak for all women, of course, but for myself, absolutely, if it was something I felt strongly about. There are some things that women are 'expected' to do that I don't do, out of personal principle. Like yourself, that has narrowed my pool of options, but it is a choice I am unlikely to regret, since it only narrows my pool down to one of more compatible men anyhow.

 

That's what I'm saying!

[dasein]

Since this 'paying for dates' appears to be a canary of wider implications, can I ask if you, as a young man, were cognizant of, perhaps focused on and supportive of the inroads women were attempting to making socially and economically at the time?

 

Where I grew up, in a medium town in the "conservative" bible belt, the only inroads were technological and economic. The work was there, labor was needed, they took the jobs, or did the SAHM as it suited them. Men and the community at large helped them do whatever they wanted. There was some minor discrimination, there was talk when a church had a female minister. Most people didn't care, most of those who did were very religious women. Men could care less. Most people were happy and had happy families and marriages. There was little cheating and when it happened it was big news. People respected their spouses or came under very harsh scrutiny in the community. There were dating issues in HS, no gender issues whatsoever though. Same in college. I never saw a feminist or heard feminist rhetoric other than "Male chauvanist pig Bobby Riggs getting beat by Billy Jean King" when I was a small child. Women's lib was some far off thing in big cities, a diversion of rich bored women. Adults in my town, men and women, laughed at it. People where I was were happy.

 

Both my grandmothers had college degrees in the 1930-40s, neither grandfather did. One grandmother worked, the other didn't. Advances in birth control, childbirth, home automation, service economy, etc. allowed women to do what the realities of life prevented before. Pretty simple history.

 

When I started dating, I paid. Many of the women I dated were from wealthy families. Then later, many of the women I dated were competing for the exact same jobs and school slots I was. I still paid. Then later, lots of women I dated made more money than me. I still paid.

 

During that time, I started hearing all sorts of feminist dogma in entertainment, news, out and about, in the 80s-90s living in cities, working in large corporations, then later going back to school and joining a profession. Women were oppressed? "Gee that's terrible. Glad I don't do that and no one I grew up with does that. Must be over in Alabama somewhere. Those folks are uncivilized :laugh:" Then, women make less than men. "Gee that's terrible. Women should be paid equally. If I ever take over Dad's small business will make sure none of that goes on." Lots of men are rapists, pedophiles and abusive? "Gee that's terrible. Glad no one in my family does that. Glad it's very rare to hear of in my community. Where are all these rapists? Must be in the big cities with the rest of the heathens. :laugh:"

 

Then after being involved with a feminist, and in light of professional trainig and experience, I started looking into it. It was all a gigantic compound lie for political benefit. It was socially destructive socialist dogma bred in universities and injected into politics. Most of the women I was involved with weren't interested in equality or a happy, loving relationship, just in selling themselves to the highest bidder and forwarding their agendas. The whole thing was all a sham, and remains so today.

 

Now men and women are starting to wake up, just like I did, to the hypocrisy and venality of a certain female perspective in recent history. Complaining about paying for dates is just one aspect of that waking up, the tip of the iceberg. Get used to it because I tend to precede mass cultural outrage by about five years so far in life. (Wait a couple years to buy a stock I recommend, then get rich ) Just look at the way they respond, here in this thread, and know without a doubt that what I'm saying is true. Lots of women think of men and the government as piggybanks to "get" from, not "earn" from. They will rationalize all around or just start hurling insults when their unearned freebies are threatened. Kids in a sandbox.

 

I recall feeling much of what I read in your writings back in my mid-late 30's as I began the process of change and reflection. It was like a rubber band which bounced back and forth between extremes and settled somewhere in the middle, that middle today being I focus, if/when dating, more on 'getting to know' rather than 'who pays'. If I'm broke, WAM-wise, then it'll be a walk in the park and, if that isn't acceptable, OK. Back to work.

 

I doubt I'll change my tune. The lies we were told are pernicious, and have caused real damage in our society. Yet they compound the lies every year. Cries of "moremoremore" resound. It will never end until enough wake up.

 

"Buy my birth control, buy my antidepressants, pay for my abortions, buy my dinner, buy me drinks, finance my miserable excuse for a life while I rubbish the male gender at every opportunity."

 

Nah, I'm pretty set in my ways carhill. F-ck em. And ironically, I do lots more of that particular activity since my "sea change" in attitude. C'est la vie.

[maybealone]

Generally four to five dates a month, at that time costing between 20 and 30 dollars per date, all inclusive. Picking the mid-range, 25, that would be 100.00 per month, minimum, or 1200.00 per year. If the dating developed into something where we were interacting more often than that, then those iterations would increase the tally.

 

So if I assume "early dates" to mean the first four, that's 15 different women every year. Yes, I can see where that would be expensive. Again, this is where having an idea of what you want from a perspective partner can help. I dated more than any of my friends, and I never had a year of 15 men in one year.

 

Maybe, but it is far less of a turnoff than a man who expects a woman to read his mind.

 

It cant be a turn off if she doesnt know it.

 

There are some men who, no matter what happens when the first date ends, leave women guessing. If you offer to pay or pay half, some will assume you don't want to see them again. If they insist on paying and you put your money away, you don't know if they were serious or not. If you say you'll get the next date, you wonder if they think you are being presumptuous.

 

Any guy that would speak his mind from the get go would get five stars for communication in my book.

Edited June 18, 2012 by maybealone

[carhill]

So if I assume "early dates" to mean the first four, that's 15 different women every year. Yes, I can see where that would be expensive. Again, this is where having an idea of what you want from a perspective partner can help. I dated more than any of my friends, and I never had a year of 15 men in one year.

 

It varied, sometimes as a result of multi-dating (this was back during 'phone' dating and early internet dating and three in one day was my record) and sometimes as the result of getting to know someone over the period of a couple months. Most occurred before I broke my habit of looking for a life partner to be married to and make love with, meaning back when a virgin. I dated a lot as virgin, as that wouldn't go until I gave up on the marriage before sex thing in my mid-30's. Hence, perhaps as an anomaly, dating, over time, was an expensive proposition, generally from age 20 or so until mid 30's. As an adult, I was officially unmarried from 18 until 41, so a long period of time.

 

Without exception, to this day, I always ask women out on dates and pay for most of them (there have been rare exceptions, like a woman paying the tip or providing movie passes/coupons, etc) well into the relationship dynamic, which for me means ILY's and lovemaking have been shared. IIRC, my exW started paying for both of us occasionally after we were an 'official' couple, meaning introduced to family and friends as a couple, maybe three months after meeting or so...

[maybealone]

So while we are discussing social conventions that need to change in the name of equity in dating, I have a few to add that I would like to see split 50-50:

 

1. The man schedules the early dates. (Face it, no matter how hot a woman is when she asks you out, some part of you is going to wonder what is wrong with her.)

 

2. The time spent preparing for a date. (Okay, I have no idea how to fix this one, but just once I would like to be the one that can roll out of bed, throw on jeans and a sweatshirt, run my fingers through my hair, and proclaim myself ready for a date.)

 

3. The man picks up the date/drives. (Seriously, men, what is so emasculating about the passenger's seat?)

 

4. The man opens a car door or pulls out a chair. (I would love to see the expression on a man's face when his date pulls out a chair for him and waits for him to be seated in the middle of a crowded restaurant.)

 

5. The man pushes for sex while the women puts him off until they have had at least a few dates. (It's 2012! Why should this still all be on us? Men need to take 50% of the responsibility for delaying sex a bit.)

[Mme. Chaucer]

Cries of "moremoremore" resound. It will never end until enough wake up.

 

You're the only one around here with the endless crying. Are you in a sandbox?

 

"Buy my birth control, buy my antidepressants, pay for my abortions, buy my dinner, buy me drinks, finance my miserable excuse for a life while I rubbish the male gender at every opportunity."

 

Truly, you might want to get some counseling to get to the bottom of why you constantly end up with women who do things like that. I've been a woman for a very long time; I have a lot of wonderful female friends and I don't know a single one who acts the way you proclaim (sonorously and repetitively) that virtually every single woman does.

 

About the abortions, though - if it's YOUR baby, it's not just HER abortion. And maybe it's appropriate for you to share the cost of birth control with a woman you are having exclusive sex with. Is that reasonable at all to you?

 

Anyway, it's all beside the point. The thread is about paying for dates.

[carhill]

1. That would be nice. I wouldn't mind that even if I paid for it. I've always been open to new adventures.

 

2. Other than rolling out of the tent to take a dip in the river (my exW and I did do this a few times early-on), I can't recall ever going out on a date without dressing properly and wearing appropriate jewelry, etc. I still do that, even when going shopping or to friend's for dinner. It's social convention for me. I don't require it from others and my exW was notable in her casual style. I wouldn't have been caught dead grocery shopping in sweats but it didn't phase her a bit.

 

3. I was sometimes a passenger if logistics were such that it was appropriate or, more commonly, the lady didn't like the idea of no air conditioning in one of my vintage cars My exW and I always shared driving duties. I didn't/don't define my manhood by driving. I defined it by driving at the race track

 

4. Haven't experienced that one. Women do open doors for me, but generally they are strangers.

 

5. Agree and have consistently practiced it. IIRC, first time with exW was about two months into the process and that was typical. If anything, I 'pushed' intimacy. Otherwise, why bother? Have a beer with a guy friend and talk cars.

 

Overall, such 'traditional' style can be expensive. 50/50 wouldn't get an argument from me if the other synergies were in place. If it ever happens, I'll post about it

[musemaj11]

There are some men who, no matter what happens when the first date ends, leave women guessing. If you offer to pay or pay half, some will assume you don't want to see them again. If they insist on paying and you put your money away, you don't know if they were serious or not. If you say you'll get the next date, you wonder if they think you are being presumptuous.

 

Any guy that would speak his mind from the get go would get five stars for communication in my book.

You dont need to pay exactly half. Since paying is caring, good generous men simply want to see that you care for them as much as they care for you.

 

For example if I buy the movie tickets, you should take the initiative to get the popcorns and the sodas. Of course snacks cost less than the tickets, but its enough of a gesture to let the guy knows that you are willing to shell out money for him also.

 

Personally I dont like to go dutch. Its very unromantic. Either I pay for the both of us or you pay for the both of us. I think a couple who are genuinely in love with each other would wrestle to pay for one another instead of expecting the other to pay.

 

So while we are discussing social conventions that need to change in the name of equity in dating, I have a few to add that I would like to see split 50-50:

 

1. The man schedules the early dates. (Face it, no matter how hot a woman is when she asks you out, some part of you is going to wonder what is wrong with her.)

There is nothing wrong with a woman suggesting a second date to a man. Unless of course the man belongs to the 50s generation who believe that women are to initiate nothing.

 

2. The time spent preparing for a date. (Okay, I have no idea how to fix this one, but just once I would like to be the one that can roll out of bed, throw on jeans and a sweatshirt, run my fingers through my hair, and proclaim myself ready for a date.)

Looking good benefits yourself.

 

I admittedly am more on the metrosexual side. I enjoy looking good when Im out. It makes me feel more confident and I like the attention I get from people around me. And more importantly, my date treats me better as a result.

 

3. The man picks up the date/drives. (Seriously, men, what is so emasculating about the passenger's seat?)

Its not emasculation. We just dont trust you behind the wheel. Just kidding!

 

Seriously though, Im from SoCal and I see more and more men on the passengers seat while the women driving.

 

4. The man opens a car door or pulls out a chair. (I would love to see the expression on a man's face when his date pulls out a chair for him and waits for him to be seated in the middle of a crowded restaurant.)

Everyone should just open his/her own car door and pull out his/her own chair.

 

5. The man pushes for sex while the women puts him off until they have had at least a few dates. (It's 2012! Why should this still all be on us? Men need to take 50% of the responsibility for delaying sex a bit.)

Men who push women for sex is like women who expect men to pay for them on dates. They are selfish.

[zengirl]

I've yet to see compelling evidence that women insist men pay.

 

I understand that socialization is not the same for boys and girls (paying for dates is not the only way it differs) and thus society has plenty of subtle social gender expectations, despite the equality we have today. Those include plenty of expectations for women and men alike, frankly. However, women don't control socialization on their own, nor do men. Men and women both contribute to the way we socialize subsequent generations and modify existing socialization. We have successfully socialized most people my age and younger to think nothing of women in the workplace and nothing of a man who is the primary childcare-giver, I'd say. Cool beans. Socialization does evolve over time, gender and otherwise. No one blinks an eye at interracial marriage, really, and most people my age are totally cool with gay marriage, whereas such things were/are taboo among other generations, statistically.

 

I'm not sure if we'll ever see a world where boys and girls are socialized identically. I'm not against it. In fact, I'd find it interesting. But here are my 2 big questions, whenever this issue comes up:

 

1. Why cherry pick THIS one? There are plenty of gender expectations out there. Why is this one so important? Why is shaving my legs less important than this one? Hell, from the men's side - why is being ridiculed if you wear a dress but I can wear pants anywhere I go, not more important than this expectation?

 

A man's desire to pay -- and many men are socialized to have that desire -- is socialized the exact same way his aversion to wearing a dress and heels is, typically. Of course, not everyone reacts or buys in to socialization (and I think that's just fine - there are plenty of aspects of gender and class socialization I resisted).

 

Certainly I don't see the men who complain about this calling for a desire to socialize all men and women absolutely identically (some might). In fact, many are typically the ones who will state that men and women are irrefutably different and thus such a thing cannot be done.

 

2. Why blame it on women, when many men support this aspect of socialization and want it to continue? Socialization is a group effort.

 

Personally, I don't support any socialization that shames, whether it's shaming a man because he wants to wear a cocktail dress or not pay for dates or a woman because she wants to let her armpit and leg hair grow out and shave her head bald. I totally support people having choices in dating to select the partners they want with the traits they want, but that's not shaming or systematic discrimination.

 

I understand that overcoming socialization, even if you don't agree with it, can be hard as MC says. But it's not insurmountable. And, on this issue, I feel there's a lot more leeway than many others - I know many couples that split expenses. I don't know many women who'd go out with a guy in a dress or mane men who'd go out with a woman who was bald & hairy.

[musemaj11]

Because money has real impact unlike not being allowed to wear a dress.

 

There is a reason why women fought for the right to vote but didnt fight for the responsibility to get conscripted into the military.

Edited June 18, 2012 by musemaj11

[Els]

I understand that overcoming socialization, even if you don't agree with it, can be hard as MC says. But it's not insurmountable. And, on this issue, I feel there's a lot more leeway than many others - I know many couples that split expenses. I don't know many women who'd go out with a guy in a dress or mane men who'd go out with a woman who was bald & hairy.

 

Yep, precisely.

 

Having been around the internet a lot, I've come across several sites in support of men who enjoy wearing high heels. They mourn about the ridicule and plain rude stares/comments that they face, from both men and women. In fact, many of them claim they get it worse from fellow men. Indeed, I'm damned sure they get it way, way, way worse than a man who simply chooses to not pay.

 

And yet some of them continue to do it. And they're proud of it. That's some admirable guts and character, IMO, way more than I see in the men who resentfully fork out the bill despite not wanting to and then posting 3276293786233 complaints about how 'women make them' here.

 

There was also a huge uproar about a woman who indulged her son's request for her to paint his nails for him. Aren't all of those pertinent gender-lines/socialization issues? But no, it's all about moneymoneymoneymoney. I'm willing to bet that some of the men whining here would be the first to ridicule their fellow men for such things. Talk about hypocrisy.