Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[zengirl]

But I agree with you - clearly way too much was spent that evening on a 'date,' in my opinion. And it did make me uncomfortable, even though it was HE who made all the plans in advance and laughed off all my concerns about it being too expensive. And he was absolutely insulted when I asked him if I could treat him to breakfast the next morning. So that's why I maintain that not EVERY man follows - or WANTS to follow - the "Dutch" rule in dating. Trying to shove this view down everyone's throat - and belittling men who DON'T want to date that way - is just childish.

 

I personally wouldn't have ever been interested in a man who found spending that much money routinely (on a very special night, like a big anniversary or something, well maybe) an acceptable habit. However, I agree that many men who offer to treat a woman actually WANT to treat the women and it's insulting to pretend their motives are always otherwise.

 

He is offering insincerely, because he doesn't want to seem cheap or poor. If a guy likes a girl, he doesn't want to rock the boat.

 

Then, he is a jerk, because he is a liar, if the offer is insincere. If I were to sense that, I would certainly never go out with a guy again and I would offer to pay - as I did whenever I never intended to see the guy again. I do not think another person should have to be accountable for his bad behaviour at all though - don't offer to treat unless you are sincere. Asking a woman to play some dance and decline, because he was uncomfortable with his sincere thoughts on the matter of paying and offered insincerely is absurd. It is VERY cheap indeed to offer and not mean it, IMO. I'm not sure I'd characterize going dutch as being cheap, though sometimes it is, because cheapness is in the attitude itself, not who pays. As for poor - I find nothing really wrong with being poor. I've been poor. Hubby's been poor. Thankfully! It makes us appreciate what we have. Though if one partner is poor and the other is not, the wealthier partner will have to decide if he/she feels comfortable either paying for more things or only doing poor things.

 

You haven't answered my question: Why have women stopped fighting for equality when it changed from being a benefit to being a detriment. That is hypocritical and selfish.

 

I do not consider this an issue of legal or social equality. Everyone is free to pay their way, and I would encourage those who want a woman to go dutch NOT to offer. I see nothing wrong with a man not offering to pay the full bill, personally, and nothing wrong with a woman accepting his offer if he does. I also see nothing wrong with a woman picking up a check if she offers and the man accepts her offer. I've picked up checks. Not just on dates either. I think that this is a matter of individual freedom - it's not the workplace, it doesn't have a great impact on rights, there's no real social change necessary. Most men who offer to pay, IME, are sincere and mean it. That is one love style, after all. Not everyone's! But it is one style. Frankly, my style has a healthy dose of that too, so I often buy things for Hubby, but I was socialized much like a boy in many ways so that's not surprising - it is the love style men are most often socialized with. So changing it is more complex than simply telling women to decline, IMO.

 

To me, this is no more a matter of equality than the expectation that women will shave their legs.

 

In answer to your question, women in generally should expect to go "dutch" and if a guy offers to pay, She should insist to pick up the check the next time to make things fair.

 

Fair in what way? Fairness is generally vague on such matters. I would suggest never offering to pay if you don't mean it and don't sincerely want to (male or female), always expecting to pay for yourself unless someone offers, and searching for someone whose values on this, and many other crucial issues, meet yours, rather than trying to conform the whole world to your liking. Everyone is welcome to their individual style.

 

Society has conditioned women to feel like the norm is the guy paying for everything. See how Ruby Slippers feels no remorse while her man pays and pays and pays. What does she bring to the relationship that is so special that he should pay for merely spending time with her?

 

Well, we can't ask him, but it seems very clear it's HIS choice to pay. Many men do genuinely and sincerely want to follow through on the things they offer, whether that be paying or elsewise. I truly, truly think that people should only ever offer ANYTHING if they mean it sincerely. There are women who want to go dutch, no matter what, and some who are simply fine with either way. There are even Sugar Mamas. So there are all types out there - women and men. Seek for the type that complements you.

 

Women have gotten used to taking advantage of men in present day society and if any guy says "No" I want equality then he is ridiculed. Look at these attitudes which aren't rare.

 

I would not ridicule a man who wanted to go dutch. However, I do think it wrong to suggest (a) Every man wants to go dutch, (b) Every relationship should be that way, and © Men are free to hide their desire to go dutch by offering false generosity and women should be responsible for enforcing it by declining. Especially C. False generosity is something I think we should ALL ridicule. Real generosity or simple honesty, no.

 

I don't think it's an equality issue, personally. If a man vehemently thought that, I'd also expect him to be fine with women with armpit hair and leg hair (unless he waxed/shaved his own) and men in dresses and so forth. A man who truly doesn't understand and wasn't impacted by socialization. Equality isn't and has never been about socializing everyone to believe there is no difference between men and women - simply no difference in value that should lead to differing workplace or legal/social value.

 

Women think their presence is valuable enough that a guy should pay. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

I would say that many men feel a particular woman's presence is valuable enough that he feels proud to pay. Not all, certainly, and it is not an expectation on my part. However, I know men who feel that way. Who show their love and affection that way. I can easily understand that - I am not saying it's the only or best way, but it is the way of many men I know. Socialization, as I said above, impacts such styles.

 

I'm not a fan of entitlement, so I'm not fond of women who'd get chumps to buy them drinks and so forth. But that has nothing to do with sincere dating. Many men, in sincere dating, show their interest and affection through choosing to offer to cover the bill. They are comfortable with that, and so presumably are the women they date. Some women are not comfortable with that, and some men are not comfortable with those women who are uncomfortable with that. There are all kinds, and I think that's fine.

 

Curious, women have been telling us for years that being sexist wasn't at all attractive.

 

No, it's not. Sexism is about discrimination. If a bisexual person dated men and women and paid for the women and not the men, I suppose I'd find that to be a bit sexist, but that's a rare occurrence. Individual temperament is not 'discrimination.' Most women are also against men (and women) who want to put them in a social role they are uncomfortable with (this will vary by the women and the social roles she wants to fill - some women are uncomfortable with men who like to pay as well). Most men are also uncomfortable with men and women who want to put them into a social role they don't wish to fit.

 

I agree that perhaps on this and many other issues we could do better, as a society, in saying "One size doesn't fit all!" but I think paying is hardly the worst of that. Women with hairy armpits or men in dresses get far greater scorn than a man who doesn't foot the bill.

[Sanman]

I do not consider this an issue of legal or social equality. Everyone is free to pay their way, and I would encourage those who want a woman to go dutch NOT to offer. I see nothing wrong with a man not offering to pay the full bill, personally, and nothing wrong with a woman accepting his offer if he does. I also see nothing wrong with a woman picking up a check if she offers and the man accepts her offer. I've picked up checks. Not just on dates either. I think that this is a matter of individual freedom - it's not the workplace, it doesn't have a great impact on rights, there's no real social change necessary. Most men who offer to pay, IME, are sincere and mean it. That is one love style, after all. Not everyone's! But it is one style. Frankly, my style has a healthy dose of that too, so I often buy things for Hubby, but I was socialized much like a boy in many ways so that's not surprising - it is the love style men are most often socialized with. So changing it is more complex than simply telling women to decline, IMO.

 

To me, this is no more a matter of equality than the expectation that women will shave their legs.

 

I would disagree with you here in that I do believe that it is a bit of an issue related to social equality. There is a definite bias out there for men being the provider and paying for dates/expenses. I agree that there are other inequalities out there (such as the one you noted). However, there is movement in those too. 'Manscaping' is becoming more common and I think than more men are grooming with regard to body hair (even if many do not admit it). I actually have dated a bisexual woman who expected me to pick up most of the dating tab and take on most of the financial burden even though she acknowledged that she might have to be the major provider if dating a woman. Yet, she did not want to do so when it came to dating a man. The point here being that while women are more free to change and shape their role in society, their still exists a much more rigid role for men as the financial provider in a world where that really is much more difficult than it used to be. Part of that rigidity is the tradition of paying for dates as this practice came about due to the expectation that man must financially providee for a woman and their (presumably) future family. However, given the changing social roles and dating practices of today, it really does not seem like a feasible burden for the average man.

[Lamplight]

Girl, this guy is bragging to all his buddies about his new sugar mama. You need to pick this guy up and take him to a really expensive resturant at least 30 minutes from his house. Put your keys in your purse before you go in. Next order drinks, appetizers, expensive dinners and desserts. After you've enjoyed your meal, tell him you have to go to the bathroom and take off out of there. By the time he pays for the meal and his cab ride home, it should equal what you spent on the five dates. If he calls you about it, tell him

you're not in the business of being a sugar mama and to get lost. Also leave your cell phone at home before the date so you don't cave and go back and bail him out. Do not let guys use you like this.

[musemaj11]

I don't next cheap women. I simply count them out as long term potentials. I will keep on dating them if they are hot, but I distrust them.

 

I'm a generous person and I want an equally generous woman for serious a serious relationship in which I'm going to invest emotion.

[carhill]

I wouldn't, and haven't 'next(ed)' a woman who doesn't offer to 'chip in', monetarily. I also would only ask women out on dates whom I'm attracted to and have screened to the extent that the potential for a long-term relationship is a positive one. I've never really 'casually' dated so our paths are different, as well as our generations.

 

My advice would be to 'next' a few, as appropriate, and see how that feels and works out. Take it from there.

[Meg717]

SO here's a hypothetical...

You guys would expect your date to pay for her coffee if that's what you did as a first date?

 

I struggle with this issue bc some guy friends I talk to say don't pay, if he asked you out, he should offer to pay. Some guy friends say the opposite. I feel like I'm going to be wrong or turn a guy off no matter what I do in this situation.

 

I would think if you're getting coffee or a couple of drinks than it shouldn't be an issue. If I'm meeting up for drinks I get 2 coronas so that couldn't cost more than $10..I certainly don't mind offering to pay half, but I'd hope that it wouldn't be expected on such a small bill. I understand not wanting to pay for an expensive dinner, but then don't offer up the expensive restaurant. If a girl has a problem with you bc you won't take her to an expensive restaurant, than you know the type of person you're dealing with.

 

I feel like once you're in a LTR it works itself out..there were plenty of times when I was with my ex I'd pay for a couple of dates in a row and then he'd take care of the next couple..or if he paid for dinner, I'd put the tip down and vice-versa.

 

I guess if a guy "nexts" me bc I didn't offer to pay or didn't pay at all, it's better off that way. I'm so sick of trying to figure out which guy is following which dating rules...

[kaylan]

SO here's a hypothetical...

You guys would expect your date to pay for her coffee if that's what you did as a first date?

 

I struggle with this issue bc some guy friends I talk to say don't pay, if he asked you out, he should offer to pay. Some guy friends say the opposite. I feel like I'm going to be wrong or turn a guy off no matter what I do in this situation.

 

I would think if you're getting coffee or a couple of drinks than it shouldn't be an issue. If I'm meeting up for drinks I get 2 coronas so that couldn't cost more than $10..I certainly don't mind offering to pay half, but I'd hope that it wouldn't be expected on such a small bill. I understand not wanting to pay for an expensive dinner, but then don't offer up the expensive restaurant. If a girl has a problem with you bc you won't take her to an expensive restaurant, than you know the type of person you're dealing with.

 

I feel like once you're in a LTR it works itself out..there were plenty of times when I was with my ex I'd pay for a couple of dates in a row and then he'd take care of the next couple..or if he paid for dinner, I'd put the tip down and vice-versa.

 

I guess if a guy "nexts" me bc I didn't offer to pay or didn't pay at all, it's better off that way. I'm so sick of trying to figure out which guy is following which dating rules...

It depends on the guy. I say its polite and a safe bet to offer to pay. If I was out with my friends, parents, or a date who was trying to treat me, Id offer to chip in out of courtesy and a sense of independence.

[Meg717]

your a cheapo and probly a homo too.

 

 

Wow..ok... I don't know how my sexuality has anything to do with being cheap... but whatever.

 

You're a douche.

[monkey00]

Normally on the first few dates I will pay. If the girl insists to help out by going dutch or paying tip, I will probably just accept the tip. However after that, I would like it if we take turns paying for each other. Going Dutch feels stingy, the taking turns thing is better imo.

 

Usually it's a red flag for me if I notice a woman does not offer at all or even make a fake purse reach at any time when the bill comes. It signals to me either she's a golddigger, has financial issues, or has no real job...or all of the above.

[Meg717]

It depends on the guy. I say its polite and a safe bet to offer to pay. If I was out with my friends, parents, or a date who was trying to treat me, Id offer to chip in out of courtesy and a sense of independence.

 

 

Ok so I was on a date a while back where I offered to pay half, he said no, don't worry about it..I insisted and ended up paying for my own drinks, which didn't bother me..I'm using this example bc if I offer and a guy says "no" do I leave it at that? I feel like I insulted him but insisting...

[kaylan]

Ok so I was on a date a while back where I offered to pay half, he said no, don't worry about it..I insisted and ended up paying for my own drinks, which didn't bother me..I'm using this example bc if I offer and a guy says "no" do I leave it at that? I feel like I insulted him but insisting...

I say push a "no I can pay for myself" twice at most. Sometimes a guy may initially say "I got it" because hes testing to see how sincere your offer was. Other times he really means it the first time and wants to treat you.

 

As I said, these things depend on guy and the girl. If two people are strangers who havent built much rapport with one another yet, its hard to know how one another feel about dates and paying. Given this reality I feel its best for both parties to be sincere in whatever offers they make the first time they make them.

 

That means no fake offers to chip in, no fake reaches for a wallet or purse, and no fake interest in picking up the entire tab. I wish these things could just be even in general...but it will always be a crap shoot since society only starting moving away from men paying for everything just recently.

[monkey00]

Ok so I was on a date a while back where I offered to pay half, he said no, don't worry about it..I insisted and ended up paying for my own drinks, which didn't bother me..I'm using this example bc if I offer and a guy says "no" do I leave it at that? I feel like I insulted him but insisting...

 

I have a different outlook than Kaylan on this.

 

I think for some guys, if a woman insists on paying half he'll worry that there won't be another date if he doesn't cover the whole tab. Or he might fear that on her insistence she's not really into him.

 

Women are the same too. If a guy expects a woman to go dutch with him on a date, some types of women will think he's not really into her and might be insulted.

[Chocolat]

Hey Kaylan,

 

What kind of first date do you usually do? Maybe you could keep it small so it won't matter who pays?

 

Coming at this from the other side (woman), it feels fraught. Some guys get insulted if you offer, other guys get insulted if you don't. Having a debate about who's going to pay in front of the Starbucks barista can be awkward. If a guy says he's going to get it in that instance, I will usually let him and say something like, next time is on me. It seems silly to quibble over a $7 coffee bill.

 

Ongoing, I have no problems paying half, all, the tip, or whatever. It's just hard to know the right thing on a first date, especially a low-key first date, which is the kind I prefer. Now, if we were somehow going to do something bigger, then I'd look for a way to split things, but my preference is to keep first dates short and inexpensive.

[Greznog]

Hey Kaylan,

 

What kind of first date do you usually do? Maybe you could keep it small so it won't matter who pays?

 

Coming at this from the other side (woman), it feels fraught. Some guys get insulted if you offer, other guys get insulted if you don't. Having a debate about who's going to pay in front of the Starbucks barista can be awkward. If a guy says he's going to get it in that instance, I will usually let him and say something like, next time is on me. It seems silly to quibble over a $7 coffee bill.

 

Ongoing, I have no problems paying half, all, the tip, or whatever. It's just hard to know the right thing on a first date, especially a low-key first date, which is the kind I prefer. Now, if we were somehow going to do something bigger, then I'd look for a way to split things, but my preference is to keep first dates short and inexpensive.

 

No need for a discussion, grab your purse and pay.

[ptp]

If I meet someone new, I am expecting to pay the first couple of times, but after that I think we should alternate paying.

 

When you first meet someone, typically she is going to be on her best behavior. So if a woman doesn't pick up a check early on or doesn't even offer to pay then, I know things will only get worse from there on.

 

Is it worth it for me to get involved with a woman like that?

[GirlontheLam]

Here is my take:

for context, I am doing pretty well and have good income. And champagne tastes that I fund on my own.

 

First date? Guys need to pay. No exceptions. That being said, you can make the date super cheap. It makes no difference. Make it coffee, make it dessert, have a drink.... you just need to foot the bill.

 

After that? We can alternate. Go Dutch. Whatever. I am not opposed to paying at all.

[Titanwolf]

This "You have to pay" mentality is outdated. The equal rights movement was successful, congratulations we're all equal now...oh wait, except for....

 

Make up your mind people, do you want equality or not?. Only when it benefits you? don't make me laugh.

[monkey00]

There are many exceptions on going Dutch the first date and many women are happy to do so. Since many times the first meeting is impromptu and the feeling each other out date. If the woman is really into you IMO she won't really care.

 

When time comes for you to take a woman out on a real date like dinner though and if you don't cover the tab, you run the risk of looking like a cheapskate.

 

Though what I do hate is when women who easily allow a guy to cover the full tab knowing there wont be another date with her. If the woman had any integrity at all she would foot her half. In many of these cases I find the woman to be spineless losers.

[It's Just Me]

I don't think I've ever been 'nexted' for not offering to share the bill, because I always did in the early OLD days. However, it's a fine line, and I hated it, so... After that, I would always decline an elaborate first meet that involved buying dinner. My suggestion was always coffee/drink and a chat, or ice cream and a walk in the summertime.

 

First meets are an introduction, not a date. I also set a time limit on the meet at 90 minutes. Again, an introduction needn't be very long. I knew within 5 minutes whether I want to see the person again. If I were I guy, I'd be peeved if I was constantly having to fork out $40-$50 or more to meet yet another girl for the first time - especially one who didn't really understand that concept.

[kaylan]

Hey Kaylan,

 

What kind of first date do you usually do? Maybe you could keep it small so it won't matter who pays?

 

Coming at this from the other side (woman), it feels fraught. Some guys get insulted if you offer, other guys get insulted if you don't. Having a debate about who's going to pay in front of the Starbucks barista can be awkward. If a guy says he's going to get it in that instance, I will usually let him and say something like, next time is on me. It seems silly to quibble over a $7 coffee bill.

I normally do something small like coffee or light lunch. No squibbling has to really be done though if a girl is like minded and doesnt want to have strangers buying her things. Its as simple as saying "thats sweet, but take 2 bucks anyways". I wouldnt mind if she didnt chip in on a cheaper "date", but Id def super appreciate the thought anyways.

Ongoing, I have no problems paying half, all, the tip, or whatever. It's just hard to know the right thing on a first date, especially a low-key first date, which is the kind I prefer. Now, if we were somehow going to do something bigger, then I'd look for a way to split things, but my preference is to keep first dates short and inexpensive.

I agree with this whole part. And actually, what sounds better is for me to cover one part of the beginning of the date, and the girl to cover the other. Like, Ill get cover the light lunch, and then later she can cover coffee if we are still hanging out. I like midday weekend first dates. Less pressure imo.

Why does it has to be so complicated?

 

I like to pay because i have the cash. I don't keep score.

Its not complicated. Adult strangers who have the means to pay for themselves should pay for themselves.

 

However, there was a time when i was a student with no money. So i would date on the cheap. What is the big deal? Just state where you are in life and date accordingly.

My point again, like Ive said thrice now, is that where I am in life would not change my viewpoints on this. Sure money is a small concern, but a girls viewpoint regarding the male-female dynamic is much more important.

There were times when the most I could afford was a cup of coffee and a donut. The women I dated knew that quite well. We were all in the same boat and with no cash.

 

Date within your social circle.

Meh, Ill be creating a new social circle when I move...but Im still going to meet strangers. I like meeting new folks on my own.

Edited August 20, 2012 by kaylan

[amythan]

I do not expect anyone for pay for me, i always offer to pay my share or do it by turns. And this does not imply I am not interested, it is usually the opposite. I just do not like to take advantage of people.

 

My bf and i we surprise each other all the time and sometimes he invites me and sometimes it is me. I would say it is 50/50. I would feel bad, especially if we go to expensive places.

 

I have never understood this entitlement some girls have about been invited all the time. But it is probably a cultural thing ...

[denise_xo]

My reasoning is that anyone I barely know who expects me to pay for them is rather off putting.

 

Totally. (Added to that, someone having to pay just because he has a penis is off putting, too.)

 

I fully support your strategy, and I respect a man who takes that approach. Having said that, I'm not American, and I feel very awkward when a man insists to pay.

[The Way I Am]

I say push a "no I can pay for myself" twice at most. Sometimes a guy may initially say "I got it" because hes testing to see how sincere your offer was. Other times he really means it the first time and wants to treat you.

 

I only insist on paying if I have no interest in the guy. If I'm interested, I'll offer to split, usually by putting in my credit card at the same time he does. If he says he wants to pay, I'll make it up by paying for the next date or something.

 

I don't get into any awkward back and forth where he has to "insist".

 

I'd be glad if a guy "nexted" me for not offering to pay again after he declined my offer once. Saves me the trouble of nexting him later. I'd rather not date a guy who can't say what he means the first time.

[Star Gazer]

I don't have one guy friend in my life who'd ever next a girl for not paying for her half. Rather, all of my guy friends have told me to next guys who let me contribute, and especially those who expect me to.

 

If you ask me out, I'm your guest, and you're paying. Simple as that.

[kaylan]

I only insist on paying if I have no interest in the guy. If I'm interested, I'll offer to split, usually by putting in my credit card at the same time he does. If he says he wants to pay, I'll make it up by paying for the next date or something.

 

I don't get into any awkward back and forth where he has to "insist".

 

I'd be glad if a guy "nexted" me for not offering to pay again after he declined my offer once. Saves me the trouble of nexting him later. I'd rather not date a guy who can't say what he means the first time.

And Im glad to next a girl who thinks its my job to pay for strangers =) Everyone wins. Its just off putting to me that when two adult strangers have independent incoming, one seems to have an entitled attitude.

 

There wont be a match, so its all good. Also, in my experience, as well as some other guys I know, plenty of girls sincerely offer to go dutch and still see them again.

 

Must be a generation gap here.

I don't have one guy friend in my life who'd ever next a girl for not paying for her half. Rather, all of my guy friends have told me to next guys who let me contribute, and especially those who expect me to.

 

If you ask me out, I'm your guest, and you're paying. Simple as that.

Older guys are different. Guys of my age group seem to at least expect a fake reach. Im a bit different as I dont appreciate the fake reach at all. I want sincerity. The "who asked who out" line is lame as we know women wait for men to do that.

 

All in all, like I said, at the end of the day two strangers should have no issues paying for themselves until rapport is establish. After that then taking turns seems great.

Edited August 20, 2012 by kaylan