Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[neveragain34]

I've been skimming the book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man, along with listening to various relationship podcasts and they all say that a woman should never have to pay for dates! It sounded old fashioned to me, but the rationalization behind it sorta made sense. (Although I still can't bring myself to not at least offer to pay.) They say that once a man is well established in his career and has made a name for himself, the next thing he wants in life is to become a provider by getting married, then having kids. To show you he can be that provider, he wants to pay for your dates, drive all the time, help you fix things, etc. By allowing him to do these things, along with withholding sex for at least 3 months, you are raising your standards and showing him your worth.

 

Again, I think it's old-fashioned and can't fully bring myself to always let a man pay, but I'm interested in what other men here on LS have to say about this theory. (Remember, they say "well-established men", so I'm sure the same rules don't apply to men who are just finishing school or starting their careers.)

[musemaj11]

I've been skimming the book, Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man, along with listening to various relationship podcasts and they all say that a woman should never have to pay for dates! It sounded old fashioned to me, but the rationalization behind it sorta made sense. (Although I still can't bring myself to not at least offer to pay.) They say that once a man is well established in his career and has made a name for himself, the next thing he wants in life is to become a provider by getting married, then having kids. To show you he can be that provider, he wants to pay for your dates, drive all the time, help you fix things, etc. By allowing him to do these things, along with withholding sex for at least 3 months, you are raising your standards and showing him your worth.

 

Again, I think it's old-fashioned and can't fully bring myself to always let a man pay, but I'm interested in what other men here on LS have to say about this theory. (Remember, they say "well-established men", so I'm sure the same rules don't apply to men who are just finishing school or starting their careers.)

Well established men today are men in his 40s and above who grew up in a different time. In a way I do agree. Chances are these men were old-fashioned even before they were well-established due to their upbringing.

 

Im betting 'well-established' men in 2030 are going to have a different outlook.

[J_L_C]

I'm slowly getting back into the dating field after a long drawn out break up. I don't know if I'm being too cautious or picky but I went out with a guy tonight (we're both in our 30's). At the end of dinner I went to the washroom and when I came back the bill was already on the table and he put his credit card in. I ALWAYS offer to pitch in on a first date but usually the men I've gone out with take care of the cheque. Anyway, I asked if I could please pitch in and he didn't hesitate and proceeded to ask the waitress to just split the bill down the middle. I'm definitely not stuck in the old-school mentality of dating & chivalry, but I think it says something about someone on a first date if he let's the lady pay. What do you all think?

 

He called me later that evening to ask if I got home ok (it was a little bit of a drive) and said he had a good time. That's a positive in my mind in terms of being "gentlemanly" lol.

[gaius]

Where did you go to eat? I'd imagine your half was somewhere between like 15-40 dollars? It's pretty poor hospitality on the part of the man if he can't pony up that much for the pleasure of your company. It reeks of subtle contempt. I agree it says something about him.

[kaylan]

^?? What?

 

Pleasure of her company? Subtle contempt. Gimme a freaking break. His time and company is worth as much as hers. And she made the offer...so I dont see how him accepting shows any sort of contempt. Way to be overly analytical and incorrectly read into something.

 

OP, if you want a guy to pay, dont present him with false offers to chip in. Personally Id be turned off by a disingenuous woman. Thank god im in my 20s and girls my age have never made an issue over "who pays for what". Sometimes I pay, sometimes its dutch, and sometimes she treats me. Its not a big deal.

 

Dont offer to chip in if you wanna have some idea of "the guy pays" in your mind. Youre more old fashioned than you let on. And lets be real here...you insisted on paying. You asked him to please let you chip in. It says nothing about the date that he let you. All his actions say is that he accepted someones insistance on chipping in

Edited March 21, 2013 by kaylan

[SJC2008]

[quote=kaylan;4711872

OP, if you want a guy to pay, dont present him with false offers to chip in. Personally Id be turned off by a disingenuous woman.

 

This 100%

 

Why on Earth would you act like you want to split and then be taken back when he takes you up on the offer?

 

As a rule of thumb the man should pay for the first date and IMO the woman should start chiping in by the 3rd.

[Els]

Not sure what your issue is here. You said, "Please let me pay", so he did the respectful thing and did as you asked.

 

Next time, if you prefer the guy to pay, simply smile and say "Thank you" when he pays instead?

[todreaminblue]

I'm slowly getting back into the dating field after a long drawn out break up. I don't know if I'm being too cautious or picky but I went out with a guy tonight (we're both in our 30's). At the end of dinner I went to the washroom and when I came back the bill was already on the table and he put his credit card in. I ALWAYS offer to pitch in on a first date but usually the men I've gone out with take care of the cheque. Anyway, I asked if I could please pitch in and he didn't hesitate and proceeded to ask the waitress to just split the bill down the middle. I'm definitely not stuck in the old-school mentality of dating & chivalry, but I think it says something about someone on a first date if he let's the lady pay. What do you all think?

 

He called me later that evening to ask if I got home ok (it was a little bit of a drive) and said he had a good time. That's a positive in my mind in terms of being "gentlemanly" lol.

 

 

if a man offers to pay i offer to go dutch........if he insists i will say ok only if i can pay next time.......it is chivalry and respectful for a man to pick up the tab on the first date.........i dont expect it....but i smile when it happens....automatic offer of second date....its comes out of my mouth without question

[gaius]

^?? What?

 

Pleasure of her company? Subtle contempt. Gimme a freaking break. His time and company is worth as much as hers. And she made the offer...so I dont see how him accepting shows any sort of contempt. Way to be overly analytical and incorrectly read into something.

Christ Kaylan what do you have to spend 20 bucks on that's better than a date. Expecting a woman to chip in on the first date is not what builds a healthy sexual relationship with a girl who respects herself. At least with one that wants to be the woman in the relationship. This dude flunked twice. First letting her pay at all, and second letting her decide the paying situation. Two total turn offs. Offering to pay is fine even if she doesn't really want to, it's the polite thing to do. Doesn't mean it's unfair for her to be turned off if he accepts. You personally have more of a desire to be the woman role in a relationship so your motives are different but for most other guys it is a sign of contempt.

[empirestate87]

Christ Kaylan what do you have to spend 20 bucks on that's better than a date. Expecting a woman to chip in on the first date is not what builds a healthy sexual relationship with a girl who respects herself. At least with one that wants to be the woman in the relationship. This dude flunked twice. First letting her pay at all, and second letting her decide the paying situation. Two total turn offs. Offering to pay is fine even if she doesn't really want to, it's the polite thing to do. Doesn't mean it's unfair for her to be turned off if he accepts. You personally have more of a desire to be the woman role in a relationship so your motives are different but for most other guys it is a sign of contempt.

 

Haha. Wow. She offered to pay and he let her pay for her half. She shouldn't be taken back.

[MrCastle]

Really depends on who is setting up the date I think. As Kaylan touched on, maybe it's our generation (20 somethings) but this isn't a big deal.

 

One girl kept raving about some indie hipster coffee shop that she said I just had to try. I told her I wasn't into coffee and she said they served tea also so I was like alright I guess I'll go.

 

I went to pay for us and she said "No way, put your wallet away. I got this."

 

I did as she said.

 

Another time she invited me to a hookah bar that she was already at with her friends. She bought me two drinks.

 

I think the whole notion of a man paying for all dates or the first date is a bit antiquated.

 

I mean, we have to do everything? Seriously? Have the guts to approach the girl, be the one to contact her most of the time because "girls aren't supposed to do the chasing or it makes them look needy", set up the dates, AND pay for both of us?

 

There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

 

Again, maybe this is a generational thing. Girls pay their own way unless I tell them "I got this." No woman has ever expected me to pay for both of us.

[leegmoser]

First impressions are important -- on most first dates, your best bet is to make the first move when the bill comes, and if she shows no sign of resistance, go for it. This goes not just for the very first date, but throughout the early stages of the relationship. Paying for things is not just the gentlemanly thing to do, it also indicates that you are responsible, steady and well-established. Women like that; it helps them decide whether or not you are relationship-ready.

[kaylan]

Christ Kaylan what do you have to spend 20 bucks on that's better than a date. Expecting a woman to chip in on the first date is not what builds a healthy sexual relationship with a girl who respects herself.

Dude...my time and company is NO LESS valuable than a womans. Its 2013, women make good livings, and young girls can take care of themselves. Putting a woman on a pedestal and not seeing her as an equal is what doesnt build a health sexual relationship.

 

Insisting that the man pay for her company, and making things seem like a transaction when you mention sexual relationships...in turn becomes a detriment to a healthy sexual relationship. A young woman who respects herself is able to take care of herself and doesnt view a healthy sexual relationship as conditional based on what a man spends. How old are you? Because you must be older to have such outdated views regarding dating, money, and sex.

At least with one that wants to be the woman in the relationship. This dude flunked twice. First letting her pay at all, and second letting her decide the paying situation.

He didnt flunk anything! She insisted on paying! Read the OP again dude. What does being "the woman" have to do with being an adult who pays their own way? A respectful person doesnt turn down someones insistance to help pay when hanging out.

Two total turn offs. Offering to pay is fine even if she doesn't really want to, it's the polite thing to do. Doesn't mean it's unfair for her to be turned off if he accepts. You personally have more of a desire to be the woman role in a relationship so your motives are different but for most other guys it is a sign of contempt.

The woman role? No...i like an equal role. Its 2013. Grow up and get with the time.

[todreaminblue]

Really depends on who is setting up the date I think. As Kaylan touched on, maybe it's our generation (20 somethings) but this isn't a big deal.

 

One girl kept raving about some indie hipster coffee shop that she said I just had to try. I told her I wasn't into coffee and she said they served tea also so I was like alright I guess I'll go.

 

I went to pay for us and she said "No way, put your wallet away. I got this."

 

I did as she said.

 

Another time she invited me to a hookah bar that she was already at with her friends. She bought me two drinks.

 

I think the whole notion of a man paying for all dates or the first date is a bit antiquated.

 

I mean, we have to do everything? Seriously? Have the guts to approach the girl, be the one to contact her most of the time because "girls aren't supposed to do the chasing or it makes them look needy", set up the dates, AND pay for both of us?

 

There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

 

Again, maybe this is a generational thing. Girls pay their own way unless I tell them "I got this." No woman has ever expected me to pay for both of us.

 

 

its ok castle there there you dont have to pay.....pats head....smilin....ill get it cheapskate..:bunny::bunny:...deb

[Els]

I mean, we have to do everything? Seriously? Have the guts to approach the girl, be the one to contact her most of the time because "girls aren't supposed to do the chasing or it makes them look needy", set up the dates, AND pay for both of us?

 

I hate to tell you this, but this practice stems from the ancient 'men are more visual' belief (or acceptance of that belief). Men were supposedly more attracted to appearance and have a stronger desire for sex, and conversely women were supposedly more attracted to a provider and a pursuer (since both parties need to have something that the other party wants). So men did their part by doing the pursuing and paying for the dates (thus demonstrating his ability to provide), and women did their part by putting in a lot of effort into their appearance and allowing the guy to have sex with her.

 

Things are changing, of course, and some people are changing with it. Some guys are now putting in a lot of effort into their own appearance (getting buff, etc), and are eschewing the double standards of chastity and beauty imposed upon women. Such guys (with kaylan being an example) are certainly justified to want a completely egalitarian relationship - and I'm sure some women are happy to have that.

 

But if you buy into the 'men are more visual' thing, then that pretty much answers your question as to why you feel expected to 'do everything'. Because if you're not offering much in the way of appearance but expecting much (with the 'more visual' excuse), then what are you offering to make up for it?

[Emilia]

At the end of dinner I went to the washroom and when I came back the bill was already on the table and he put his credit card in. I ALWAYS offer to pitch in on a first date but usually the men I've gone out with take care of the cheque. Anyway, I asked if I could please pitch in and he didn't hesitate and proceeded to ask the waitress to just split the bill down the middle. I'm definitely not stuck in the old-school mentality of dating & chivalry, but I think it says something about someone on a first date if he let's the lady pay. What do you all think?

 

Men are simple creatures. They usually want to please you to make a good impression. YOU asked to split the bill, he did as you asked. Don't ask something you don't mean to do?

 

But when someone has their credit card sitting on the check and the woman comes back to the table and offers to split the bill, it's completely tacky and classless to call the waitress bacl over to the table again, ask for separate checks, then hand your date one of them. Hell, that's not even a DATE.

 

Way too harsh and you didn't read the original post properly. He didn't call the waitress back. The way it works is that once the bill arrives, it gets split between the number of people paying when the waitress comes back to take payment. Nothing to do with class, it's modern manners and being up to date on modern etiquette.

[Emilia]

Agree with this besides the clumsy generalization about the simplicity of men...

 

 

I think you'll find it's how a lot of men describe themselves on this site and in real life.

[Emilia]

Many still doesn't make it a rule...

 

Fair enough. Please change it to

 

'Men are simple creatures except animalover'

[soccerrprp]

I'm slowly getting back into the dating field after a long drawn out break up. I don't know if I'm being too cautious or picky but I went out with a guy tonight (we're both in our 30's). At the end of dinner I went to the washroom and when I came back the bill was already on the table and he put his credit card in. I ALWAYS offer to pitch in on a first date but usually the men I've gone out with take care of the cheque. Anyway, I asked if I could please pitch in and he didn't hesitate and proceeded to ask the waitress to just split the bill down the middle. I'm definitely not stuck in the old-school mentality of dating & chivalry, but I think it says something about someone on a first date if he let's the lady pay. What do you all think?

 

He called me later that evening to ask if I got home ok (it was a little bit of a drive) and said he had a good time. That's a positive in my mind in terms of being "gentlemanly" lol.

 

I always expect to pay and never ask my date to pitch in, BUT I do if offered. In fact, I've been spoiled. I've had a few ladies wanting to pitch in and I like that. Again, I did not ask and can easily afford to pay for it all.

 

A promising example is when the lady asked to pay for part of dinner and I told her that she can pay for the movie/snacks. She did. Good date and we're still friends now.

 

Anyway, you offered. It doesn't mean that he's anything but accommodating and/or sensitive to the circumstances at hand. I've learned that "some" women like the idea of contributing to the date.

 

You make things easier on us guys. Also, please remember that he had his CC ready to go, so he would done what you seemed to have expected, right?

[Els]

I am an old fashioned man who always pay for his dates but if you don't want something you should not ask for it... that is hypocrisy..

 

Yep. I honestly think that women like the OP kinda put guys in a tough spot. One the one hand they've probably met women who got insulted by having their request to pay turned down (because it apparently means that they don't respect them, or are sexists, or underestimate women, or are chauvinists, or any combination of the above)... and on the other hand there are women like the OP who request to pay but secretly don't want to (because, Idunno, they expect the guy to read their minds?). Sheesh, what's a guy to do?

 

And the worst thing is, she wasn't just offering. It wasn't, "Hey, you sure you don't want me to get half of that?", it was "Please let me pay". Huge difference there.

[PogoStick]

If she insists on tradition then she'll have no problem keeping up on laundry and cooking when they get married, right?

[harmfulsweetz]

If you don't want to pay, don't ask to. It's simple. He had his credit card out ready to pay, and you asked to chip in. If you are only asking to seem polite, just smile and say thank you profusely.

 

The whole "who pays what" just comes across as meaningless to me. Of course, it's nice when a guy offers to pay for a first date, but if I offered to chip in, I wouldn't expect him to refuse it, and complain when he accepts.

 

If the date was otherwise good, why let simple formalities get in the way?

[Andy_K]

Firstly, I wouldn't want to date any girl who actually cares that much about me paying that it'll make a bad impression if I don't. If agreeing to split would cost me a second date, fantastic! Less time wasted. Easy-going and laid back types for me only.

 

Secondly, I tend to avoid taking a girl out for dinner until at least after we've slept together. It avoids any inference of 'expecting something in return' or putting her on a pedestal. There are plenty of other things to do that are much more fun. Eating out isn't really my thing.

 

I've also met more than a few girls who preferred this approach, they felt like a guy insisting on paying for them was a sign he could be controlling, or that he was establishing 'superiority' when they wanted an equal balance.

[normal person]

It's a little bit of a dance, isn't it? There are a lot of nuances to it, but the OP shouldn't be too surprised that she had her bluff called if she offered. I'll always go in expecting to pay the whole bill just as a fail-safe. Another $10-$40 isn't much to whine about. If you're unprepared to pay for the whole thing without fuss, you shouldn't be going out.

 

If the girl wants to pay it's a pleasant surprise, I'll usually respond with a "Don't worry about it" -- which I understand makes me complicit in the whole thing -- but I'm still expected to say it or otherwise I'll be subjected to speculation by girls like the OP for not refusing any completely fake offers. If the guy insists on paying, he's out of pocket. If he doesn't, there's a chance the girl will start looking at him differently so it's nearly lose/lose for guys. I wouldn't be out with the girl if I didn't like her already, so I'll take the small hit to the wallet.

 

Hierarchy of womens' responses to paying the bill in terms of my preference:

 

1). "I'll get it this time, don't worry." (yet to happen)

2). "I had all those $12 margaritas so why don't you just give me a $20 and I'll put the rest on my card?" (rare)

3). "We can split it, here's my card." (she legitimately wants to split it)

4). "Oh, are you sure [you don't want to split it]?" (nice of you to ask, but if you really wanted to pay, you'd insist)

5). She just sits there and doesn't say anything about it as you pay

6). "We can split it, here's my card." (but she's mad that you accept).

7). She at the very least reaches for the bill and/or her wallet

8). She gets up and goes to the bathroom right about the time the check is coming (Sorry OP, I think you doing this was in poor taste).

Edited March 21, 2013 by normal person

[crude]

i dont expect it....but i smile when it happens....automatic offer of second date....its comes out of my mouth without question

 

 

Does your credit card come out on the 2nd date? Amazing that women expect to be paid for their "company". Men have better senses of humor and personalities. If anyone should pay for the company of the other, it should be women. Amazing how certain "traditions" that suit women are never out of style, but what they don't like becomes sexist and passe.