Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Woggle]

don't doubt. You already see how a lot of women let themselves go after they're married and don't care about attracting men anymore. It's really not that hard to see or grasp.

 

Men do that as well. With kids, work and all those other responsibilities sometimes fashion and looking great tend to take a backseat. My wife certainly has not let herself go and neither have I.

[mesmerized]

Men do that as well. With kids, work and all those other responsibilities sometimes fashion and looking great tend to take a backseat. My wife certainly has not let herself go and neither have I.

 

When did I say men don't? Men do things for attraction too, but it's much less focused on looks. You have to stop this men and women do everything equally, its getting old.

[Sanman]

When did I say men don't? Men do things for attraction too, but it's much less focused on looks. You have to stop this men and women do everything equally, its getting old.

 

Okay, men drive fancy cars only to impress women. They would not do so if it were not for women. There you go, now we are spending more than you.

[mesmerized]

Okay, men drive fancy cars only to impress women. They would not do so if it were not for women. There you go, now we are spending more than you.

 

I highly doubt men drive fancy cars only to impress women. Why? Woman who have money also love to drive fancy cars (my mom, married for more than 30 years is obsessed with her cars for example). Are they doing it to impress men?

[SarahRose]

Well, I'm in the 50+ year old camp, so this stuff doesn't really happen in my world. It seems to be happening with younger people, but I don't have any experience with it, personally.

 

But because I read about the "who pays?" war often - here on LS and on my dating site message forums as well, I do now offer to pay my share or get a round of drinks when I'm on a date. Being from the older generation, it's never been the 'standard' for a woman to do that, but I do try to keep up with the times.

 

Honestly? I can go "dutch" with my friends. If a man asks me out on a date and then he's splitting the bill with me when it arrives, like some of the other ladies here I'd find that pretty distasteful. I might as well be out with my friends with whom I'd expect to split the bill. But this has honestly NEVER, EVER happened on a date.

 

Here is what my experience has been since I re-entered the dating world a few years ago: every SINGLE time I've ever been on a date, when the bill came and I asked what my portion was, it's been met with polite insistance that he would handle the bill and "thank you anyway," it's been completely ignored because I obviously insulted him, or I've been told in no uncertain terms that anytime I was ever with him out on a date, I was to never offer to pay again because he would ALWAYS be the one to take care of the bill.

 

In fact, one time I suggested to a gentleman on a first date (we met at a local tavern for drinks) that I would get the first round of drinks and he could get the second. He looked at me like I had two heads and he was yet another one that told me that I was to never bring up the subject again in his company.

 

Lastly, I was out with another guy and we'd had dinner in the restaurant part of the place, then sauntered out to the bar part to listen to a local band. I gave the bartender my credit card without my date seeing me do it, and we had a few drinks and enjoyed the band. When we were leaving, the bartender handed me back my credit card and I asked where the tab was so I could add on a tip. She informed me my date had paid and had insisted she give my card back to me. I kid you not.

 

THIS is the type of dating I'm used to. Does that make me an "entitlement princess" because it's the way men have treated me all my life? Obviously NOT to any of the gentlemen I've dated - it's what I've been used to since I was a teenager. But again, I'm from a different generation and that's how folks my age tend to do things.

 

Just because there are still women who prefer to be treated in this matter doesn't make them entitled, or 'gold diggers.' And seriously, that ridiculous term is thrown around way too much around here and it simply doesn't apply.

 

 

same here. im 50 and i have never paid for a date. no guy i have dated would ever let me pay for a date either and i certainly wasnt using him for a cup of coffee or a sandwich.

 

listening to these younger guys whinge on and on about spending their entire pay check on a meal or worrying about being used for a meal just gives me a nauseated feeling in my stomach. it is just so smarmy, boorish, and distasteful.

 

if a guy didn't want to pay for a date he asked me on or expected me to come up with half, that would be the last date he had with me.

 

i also get sick of these young women apologizing for these whiny males who think there should be no expectations of them. oh i pay my half blah blah blah. apologizing for it.

 

to the guys, if you are spending an entire week's wages on a meal either you work at mcdonalds earning min wage or you are a fool which is another reason, i wouldn't go out with someone who doesn't have good sense.

guys you don't realize what a turn off you are being with your whiny b tch behavior.

 

dating hasn't changed all that much. men ask the girl out, women play coy and allow the man to win her heart. it is the way things are supposed to be.

 

men used to want to show off and impress a woman. now they are lazy whiny slugs.

 

good thing i wont ever be dating again!!

[SarahRose]

Put all those women in a world without men and see how they become sloppy and careless lol Just because women compare nails doesn't mean they are trying to impress "women", the underlying message is "I'm pretty too, I can get men!". At the end it's all about men.

 

definitely not true. dressing well impresses everyone.

 

i wear a beautiful chanel suit, with smart hair, makeup, driving a mercedes; people treat me differently than if i were wearing sweats and driving a beat up hyundai.

[ATrainofAngels]

same here. im 50 and i have never paid for a date. no guy i have dated would ever let me pay for a date either and i certainly wasnt using him for a cup of coffee or a sandwich.

 

listening to these younger guys whinge on and on about spending their entire pay check on a meal or worrying about being used for a meal just gives me a nauseated feeling in my stomach. it is just so smarmy, boorish, and distasteful.

 

if a guy didn't want to pay for a date he asked me on or expected me to come up with half, that would be the last date he had with me.

 

i also get sick of these young women apologizing for these whiny males who think there should be no expectations of them. oh i pay my half blah blah blah. apologizing for it.

 

to the guys, if you are spending an entire week's wages on a meal either you work at mcdonalds earning min wage or you are a fool which is another reason, i wouldn't go out with someone who doesn't have good sense.

guys you don't realize what a turn off you are being with your whiny b tch behavior.

 

dating hasn't changed all that much. men ask the girl out, women play coy and allow the man to win her heart. it is the way things are supposed to be.

 

men used to want to show off and impress a woman. now they are lazy whiny slugs.

 

good thing i wont ever be dating again!!

 

 

 

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to ask for entirely equal treatment in society, yet demand that gender roles be 100% in place in the 1 area that it suits you well?

 

 

What happened to true equality? Why do equals who make the same money have to pay for each other's dinner?

 

 

The hypocrisy is what men have problem with. Thankfully, most young women nowadays seem to be fine with paying half for dates (after the first date or so). That's how it should be. There's no reason why young women, who earn the same living as young males, should be able to have a free ride in the dating world

Edited June 11, 2012 by ATrainofAngels

[SarahRose]

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to ask for entirely equal treatment in society, yet demand that gender roles be 100% in place in the 1 area that it suits you well?

 

 

What happened to true equality? Why do equals who make the same money have to pay for each other's dinner?

 

 

The hypocrisy is what men have problem with. Thankfully, most young women nowadays seem to be fine with paying half for dates (after the first date or so). That's how it should be. There's no reason why young women, who earn the same living as young males, should be able to have a free ride in the dating world

 

there is nothing equal or fair about dating and mating. it never has been and never will be. it is silly to try to compare dating to working.

 

men really don't like it when women ask them out. they don't want a woman who will sleep with them on the first date. men get bent out of shape by the number of sexual partners. if it were so equal no man would care about these things.

[ATrainofAngels]

there is nothing equal or fair about dating and mating. it never has been and never will be. it is silly to try to compare dating to working.

 

Makes no sense here. Basically you're saying that you want equal treatment in every aspect of life except the one area where you would prefer to have it be like the 18th century is the one area that suits you very well. It's hypocrisy

 

 

men really don't like it when women ask them out. they don't want a woman who will sleep with them on the first date.

 

Men don't like women who ask them out? Do you live on Planet Earth or Jupiter? I'm very strongly leaning towards Jupiter cause I don't know any man who doesn't like to get approached or asked out as it never happens

 

 

Also the part about not wanting to sleep with somebody goes both ways. A respectful guy shouldn't be trying to get into a girl's pants the first date and a proper lady shouldn't give it up first date usually either (unless they both have amazing chemistry and both feel like it's appropriate)

[zengirl]

Okay, men drive fancy cars only to impress women. They would not do so if it were not for women. There you go, now we are spending more than you.

 

They certainly do not. Men love fancy cars for themselves, as far as I can tell. They get way more into it than any woman I know does. The same way women do not buy 200 dollar shoes for men.

[Sanman]

They certainly do not. Men love fancy cars for themselves, as far as I can tell. They get way more into it than any woman I know does. The same way women do not buy 200 dollar shoes for men.

 

 

I'm aware...my attempt at sarcasm

[zengirl]

I'm aware...my attempt at sarcasm

 

Ah, missed the tone. I need more convenient smilies to understand obviously!

[Sanman]

First of all, NOT EVERY WOMAN ON THE PLANET was out burning her bra back in the 70's, demanding equality. So stop trying to paint the entire female gender with one convenient brush.

 

SECONDLY, the Women's Movement was primarily for equality in the workplace - women wanted to be paid the same wage for the same work that a man performs. It was also about the ability to make choices about her OWN body with respect to contraception, abortion, etc. etc.

 

Back in those days it was automatically expected that a woman be a housewife, a mother, and nothing more. Some women saw this movement as an opporunity to free themselves from being "only a housewife" to being able to work towards a professional career. Some felt more fulfilled doing that than changing diapers.

 

Just because women wanted control over their own professional careers, their life choices and their own damned bodies doesn't automatically mean that they wiped out thousands and thousands of years of biological needs and instinct. The two have nothing to do with each other and it's a bit amusing to see guys who weren't even ALIVE when this movement was taking place, continually trying to use it as a convenient excuse to call women 'gold diggers' simply there are still alot of women that want to hold to the more traditional rules of dating.

 

So, let me get this straight. Some women wanted to have the right to compete with men in the job market on equal footing. Thus, making men compete further for jobs and educational opportunities and effectively doubling the workforce (and reducing real wages), but that should not affect dating. How about this, if women stop competing with me in the workplace and allow me to make more money, I will gladly pay for those dates. Until then, your real problem is with the women's movement and not with men. Those women wanted equality and more freedom and the men here are just demanding the same.

 

As for housecleaning, those responsibilities depend on the couple/family. Some men do more than their share of the housework and others hire maids to do most it so neither party has to do so.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Sanman

[Els]

Just a curious musing on the 'women dress up for men' bit... Certainly not all women do it for men, and not all men care about it. But for some of the men who do want women to look a certain way, yet do not similarly focus on their own appearance OR play the traditional 'guy part'... what are they expecting to offer? For example, I know a few guys who drool over girls with slender, toned bodies in slinky dresses, waist-length smooth hair, and gorgeous features (that are, unbeknownst to them, enhanced with makeup). Yet they themselves have a standard $10 haircut, no muscles, and wear common tees with jeans and trainers most of the time, and ask, "Yeah, why should we pay for their company?" Not surprisingly, those guys are mostly single. And I'm looking at them and scratching my head and wondering, why do they even think that'll work out for them? It's kinda like going to a gold store and expecting to be handed gold bars over in exchange for nothing - not cash, not items, and not work. That just ain't gonna work... unless you have a gun in your hand, of course.

[zengirl]

The reason men are 'expected' to pay for dates (and honestly, I'm not sure they truly are 'expected') is because they are competing with other men who do so. Feminism has little to do with it, one way or the other. I seriously doubt y'all can convince other men to stop paying for dates, and I also don't think anyone has ever mandated it --- if you pay for a date, you chose to do so, and you did it either because you felt compelled to, by personal courtesy or socialization, or because you wanted to impress the girl and compete with other potential suitors. C'est la vie.

 

Don't want to pay for dates? Totally simple solution! Don't pay for dates.

 

I suspect most of the men arguing against paying for dates HAVE paid for dates, though, sometimes even happily and insistently so. (A man not liking the expectation and not wanting to do so are two totally different things.) It is a minority of American men who don't offer. Truly. Instead of arguing with women, it would seem you'd be better suited convincing other men. Just my 2 cents.

 

I do think 'expectation' (of this and many other things that various women and men expect of near-strangers) is kind of gross, generally, but most dates where a man pays, it wasn't because he was expected to do so or compelled beyond his will. I've had to talk so many men OUT of paying, quite arduously, when I wasn't interested in them, that it hardly seems expecting or not matters.

 

Just a curious musing on the 'women dress up for men' bit... Certainly not all women do it for men, and not all men care about it. But for some of the men who do want women to look a certain way, yet do not similarly focus on their own appearance OR play the traditional 'guy part'... what are they expecting to offer?

 

A very good point.

 

ETA: Mostly, when this argument comes up, it seems people make it NOTHING about paying for the actual date, but about all kinds of social order they don't like --- really feminism was about LESS social order, which means yes, women could pay and you could absolutely expect them to, but if they'd rather go out with one of the blokes who offers, so be it. No social order required either which way. That's the only way feminism plays in, honestly. Women have to shave their legs and wear make up and all other sorts of things in order to really 'compete' with others who do in the dating market, but some men don't care about all that either, and some women don't care who pays on a date. Honestly. Some will, some won't. All based on what they're looking for, what they're used to, what else you bring to the table, and so forth. Most complaints of this nature just seem to be about not being successful, rather than whether or not you shelled out for pasta.

 

Some people (male and female) want to offer very little and get a lot. Good for them, if they can achieve it. Except for treating people with basic respect, honesty, and so forth, I see no 'rules' in dating. Want someone who has perfect blond hair? Or pays for dinner and pulls out your chair? Or wears high heels? Or plays the ukelele on a motorbike? I don't give two figs. Want whatever you want -- just don't whine if you can't get it in the way you want.

Edited June 11, 2012 by zengirl

[Kamille]

The reason men are 'expected' to pay for dates (and honestly, I'm not sure they truly are 'expected') is because they are competing with other men who do so. Feminism has little to do with it, one way or the other. I seriously doubt y'all can convince other men to stop paying for dates, and I also don't think anyone has ever mandated it --- if you pay for a date, you chose to do so, and you did it either because you felt compelled to, by personal courtesy or socialization, or because you wanted to impress the girl and compete with other potential suitors. C'est la vie.

 

Don't want to pay for dates? Totally simple solution! Don't pay for dates.

 

I suspect most of the men arguing against paying for dates HAVE paid for dates, though, sometimes even happily and insistently so. (A man not liking the expectation and not wanting to do so are two totally different things.) It is a minority of American men who don't offer. Truly. Instead of arguing with women, it would seem you'd be better suited convincing other men. Just my 2 cents.

 

I do think 'expectation' (of this and many other things that various women and men expect of near-strangers) is kind of gross, generally, but most dates where a man pays, it wasn't because he was expected to do so or compelled beyond his will. I've had to talk so many men OUT of paying, quite arduously, when I wasn't interested in them, that it hardly seems expecting or not matters.

 

 

 

 

Very good point. I always offer to split the bill. That's my feminist "new order" moment. I would gladly pay my share and it wouldn't disqualify the guy in my view. It's when my date insists on paying that I revert to old gender roles. I'm not going to spend the end of a first date arguing with my date about gender equality. Wouldn't that be emasculating?

[Sanman]

I do think 'expectation' (of this and many other things that various women and men expect of near-strangers) is kind of gross, generally, but most dates where a man pays, it wasn't because he was expected to do so or compelled beyond his will. I've had to talk so many men OUT of paying, quite arduously, when I wasn't interested in them, that it hardly seems expecting or not matters.

 

The bolded is the only point I would disagree with you. I think so many men are conditioned my society and previous dates to pick up checks out of concern that women will reject them if they do not. When a woman insists, many men know it is a rejection as well and might insist hoping to get another chance out of guilt.No one decent wants to make a big deal out of a check in real life regardless of their real feelings. If men were offered the chance to split a bill with the certainty of another date, I think that you would see a real change. This is evident in other countries where going dutch is the norm.

[Els]

The bolded is the only point I would disagree with you. I think so many men are conditioned my society and previous dates to pick up checks out of concern that women will reject them if they do not. When a woman insists, many men know it is a rejection as well and might insist hoping to get another chance out of guilt. If men were offered the chance to split a bill with the certainty of another date, I think that you would see a real change. This is evident in other countries where going dutch is the norm.

 

Well, I think that is on the man, IMO, and not the woman. If a woman wears heels to dates because she feels she's 'expected to' and later complains about men prioritizing women's appearances over their health and comfort, is she not the one who made the decision ultimately? Nobody is required to offer 'certainty of another date' to someone else. If the men who have a strong stance against paying do not have the confidence in themselves to stick to their guns and to seek out and attract like-minded women, they really only have themselves to blame.

[zengirl]

The bolded is the only point I would disagree with you. I think so many men are conditioned my society and previous dates to pick up checks out of concern that women will reject them if they do not. When a woman insists, many men know it is a rejection as well and might insist hoping to get another chance out of guilt.No one decent wants to make a big deal out of a check in real life regardless of their real feelings. If men were offered the chance to split a bill with the certainty of another date, I think that you would see a real change. This is evident in other countries where going dutch is the norm.

 

Elswyth already answered this well, with the heels analogy. You choose the bait you want to fish with --- if you want to catch a woman who doesn't care if you pay, then you have to be willing to alienate the ones who do. Same with many choices women make when dating. My whole point is built around the idea that NOTHING we do on a date is done with the 'certainty' of another date or not or anything working out or not.

 

If men are paying when they don't want to pay, they're doing themselves a disservice.

 

If they're paying at hopes of it putting them 'over the edge' for another date (not the same as doing something you don't want to do per se), it's no different than wearing uncomfortable heels or buying that new little red dress or whatever. People do all sorts of things. I suggest doing nothing you don't want to do because you'll just catch the wrong sorts for you! But not everyone will listen to that advice or be willing to have that kind of patience. As I said, many men pay to compete with other men --- that's their choice and it's on them.

[Sanman]

Well, I think that is on the man, IMO, and not the woman. If a woman wears heels to dates because she feels she's 'expected to' and later complains about men prioritizing women's appearances over their health and comfort, is she not the one who made the decision ultimately? Nobody is required to offer 'certainty of another date' to someone else. If the men who have a strong stance against paying do not have the confidence in themselves to stick to their guns and to seek out and attract like-minded women, they really only have themselves to blame.

 

Oh, absolutely. Yet, I know many women who do the exact thing you describe. I can't tell you how many pairs of heels I have ended up holding over the tenure of my dating career. My gf and I had a talk about that when we started going out. She can wear whatever shoes she likes as long as I don't end up having to carry them and listen to complaints about aching feet. She wears mostly flats now. She just wears heels when we are out at weddings or with her other female friends/couples going somewhere fancy.

 

While some people have the ability to seek out like-minded others and attract them (I did), there is nothing wrong with advocating for others. If women started a thread saying they should not be expected to wear heels, I would be 100% behind it.

[zengirl]

If women started a thread saying they should not be expected to wear heels, I would be 100% behind it.

 

What if a man said he liked it when women wore heels and didn't want to date a woman who only wore flats? Would that offend you?

[Els]

Oh, absolutely. Yet, I know many women who do the exact thing you describe. I can't tell you how many pairs of heels I have ended up holding over the tenure of my dating career. My gf and I had a talk about that when we started going out. She can war whatever shoes she likes as long as I don't end up having to carry them and listen to complaints about aching feet. She wears mostly flats now. She just wears heels when we are out at weddings or with her other female friends/couples going somewhere fancy.

 

While some people have the ability to seek out like-minded others and attract them (I did), there is nothing wrong with advocating for others. If women started a thread saying they should not be expected to wear heels, I would be 100% behind it.

 

But here's the thing... would you tell a man who has a fetish for high heels that he is wrong for wanting a woman who wears them? As zengirl said, expectation is just a crummy thing, but people have the right to want what they want. After all, every one of us has his/her own preferences, so surely we do not have the right to tell others that they are wrong for having theirs. Variety is what makes humans and relationships so interesting.

 

Edit: Snap, just noticed that zengirl got it in before me.

[Sanman]

What if a man said he liked it when women wore heels and didn't want to date a woman who only wore flats? Would that offend you?

 

What he likes is his choice, but he should not have an expectation of women to do so. They are not his feet and he is not the one that will be in pain. While I am offended by neither person (the women here with differing views or said man), I will tell him that he is being silly and neglecting far more important aspects of a person by focusing on the expectation that she wear heels. I feel the same of the women here.

 

I am a very generous and giving guy (and my gf says I spoil her all the time), but we split dates for the first few months we dated while we got to know each other. She also believes in splitting costs equally when both people are working. I simply detest the fact that men who have such a preference at mocked and sullied by certain posters. I would be just as annoyed if a group of men were mocking women for not wearing heels.

 

Elswyth: Not disagreeing with you either. Variety is fine with me. It is expectations, mocking those that do not have your expectations, and hypocrisy that annoys me. I would tell foot fetish guy to find a woman who likes him and would not mind wearing heels in the bedroom or out of it to please him. I wear clothes my gf likes to see me in and she does the same.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Sanman

[Els]

What he likes is his choice, but he should not have an expectation of women to do so. They are not his feet and he is not the one that will be in pain. While I am offended by neither person (the women here with differing views or said man), I will tell him that he is being silly and neglecting far more important aspects of a person by focusing on the expectation that she wear heels. I feel the same of the women here.

 

I am a very generous and giving guy (and my gf says I spoil her all the time), but we split dates for the first few months we dated while we got to know each other. She also believes in splitting costs equally when both people are working. I simply detest the fact that men who have such a preference at mocked and sullied by certain posters. I would be just as annoyed if a group of men were mocking women for not wearing heels.

 

Elswyth: Not disagreeing with you either. Variety is fine with me. It is expectations and mocking those that do not have your expectations that annoys me.

 

Oh, definitely. I have never agreed with people mocking others for not conforming to their preferences, be it denigration towards overweight people, or older people, or men who don't wish to pay. However, to be fair, I think women who say they prefer a man to pay (and say this without calling the men who don't pay names) receive a lot of flak on this board simply for their preference. Men who pay also receive a lot of flak on this board - I've seen them called chumps, doormats, pussies, compensating for lack in other areas, etc. I'm all for preventing negative judgement and mocking of people, but that goes many ways here.

[zengirl]

What he likes is his choice, but he should not have an expectation of women to do so.

 

Right, there is a difference between saying:

Women should wear heels.

I like dating women who wear heels.

I expect the woman I'm dating to wear heels.

 

Those are 3 different things. The first is silly and wrong. The second is absolutely innocuous. And the third, which is probably the most often situation for any of these things, is a bit of a mish mash. It may clash with someone else's personal expectations, but that's great. It creates clear incompatibilities and weeds out partners.

 

There will, of course, be some women who DO wear heels who won't go out with a guy who says #1 or #3. Maybe even #2, but probably not that one.

 

And the same is true if you insert "man" and "pays for dinners" instead and vice versa.

 

They are not his feet and he is not the one that will be in pain.

 

Ah, but SOME women like wearing heels --- honestly. I know it sounds mad, but it's true. And SOME men like paying for dinner. Really, they do. I know some. Not ONLY to put themselves over the edge, but because it makes them feel good about themselves, the same way some women feel sexier when they wear heels. So assuming it's a pain or problem for the other person is not necessarily correct.

 

While I am offended by neither person (the women here with differing views or said man), I will tell him that he is being silly and neglecting far more important aspects of a person by focusing on the expectation that she wear heels. I feel the same of the women here.

 

I would probably agree with you on this, and honestly, if someone were otherwise great and didn't want to pay for dinner, I don't think I would've cared. I never ran into that situation. Hubby does not have the same values you do, on splitting dates at the beginning or splitting finances now. He makes more money, so his value system dictates that he pay for me; I have a similar value system (felt I should pay more when I made more than a partner or potential partner), so it works out well.

 

I simply detest the fact that men who have such a preference at mocked and sullied by certain posters. I would be just as annoyed if a group of men were mocking women for not wearing heels.

 

I'm sure there are SOME posts that mock such men, but not very many. Mostly the men who get mocked are as Elswyth said, those who seem to want much but offer little, and not just in paying for dates. I'm not sure I agree with that, even, but I think it generally isn't just about paying for dates. As I said, so many of these threads become not about that. I also don't think the guy who likes heels or the woman who likes a man who covers the check deserve to be mocked, though.

 

I wouldn't mock anyone who didn't meet my expectations so much as see them as lacking (as a potential partner, not as a human being) and not for me.