Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Disenchantedly Yours]

And I don't understand why men expect sex before committment.

 

I don't understand why men think they should date younger women.

 

I don't understand why men want me to pay all my hard earned money to look good..gym, clothes, make-up..and if I don't, they aren't interested...

 

Blah, blah blah.

 

Life is really good for women these days. Not only do we take on a majority of the household responsibilities still (men do contribute more then before in this regard but it's still not statistically "equal"), we are going to school more then men, earning more degrees, we have to have full time jobs, bring home the bacon, pop out the babies, make sure we get ourselves back to work, make sure we stay in shape/get back into shape or else our husbands/boyfriends compalin and consider breaking up with us, make sure we keep sex fun and new and buy cute little outfits for the bedroom and make sure we are paying for everything too. Not get upset when your man ogles 20 year olds Women are over worked and over taxed. We are expected to be the man and woman in relationships today. We are the ones reading the majority of the "self help" books trying to improve oursselves and our relationships (this is just statistically a fact that women tend to be more pursues of fixing their relationships). That's right ladies! Pay for more dates. Heck, pay for most of the dates. Plenty of guys will love it. The more you give, the more they will take. There have been a number of articles the past couple of years about how women are getting the raw end of the deal socially because of how men aren't going to college as much and are living at home longer and the changing dating platform of money and courtship.

 

When I dated older men vs men my age, I always had a higher expectation for the older guys to pay. Why wouldn't I? With men my age, I was more flexable about the pay issue. But I like more traditional relationships and I like a man that is going to be a giver. As I am sure men do. However, I think men and women have different needs sometimes. Although stereotypically applied gender socialization has changed with time, I still consider a man paying, treating me like a lady. Now he certainly shouln't always have to pay or alway take me out. We can stay home, or if he took us out to dinner, I can pay for the movie...stuff like that. But when men are overly uptight about the pay issue, I was turned off. He wasn't going to be a giver. He was always going to be factoring in his mind if everything was tit for tat. And that's not the kind of relatoinship I want.

 

Datings changed a lot but I am sort of left with the impression that a lot of men don't want to have to do anything or want any expectations placed on them within dating. Men don't want to approach anymore, they don't want to pay, they don't want relatoinships automatically and will have sex with you without estbalishing one...the list goes on. It just appears that some men don't want to work for anything anymore.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours

[jakelongot]

And I don't understand why men expect sex before committment.

 

That's a 2 way street. Women are just as guilty. Sometimes a woman will sleep with a guy quickly because she thinks that will keep him interested. If they had more self respect or felt less threatened by other females this wouldn't be a problem and she wouldn't jump in bed so fast

 

I don't understand why men think they should date younger women.

 

I don't understand why women think they should date older men.

 

I don't understand why men want me to pay all my hard earned money to look good..gym, clothes, make-up..and if I don't, they aren't interested...

 

Yes...because the only reason you have 9,000 pairs of shoes and a gym membership is because of men? And if you do, that's a "you" problem.

 

Women are very good at discounting the tremendous amount of advantages they have in their life and playing up the negatives.

 

Whenever a guy says women have it easy, they are quick to respond with:

 

1.) Periods

2.) child birth

3.) make less money

 

Yes ladies...we know you have a rough week every month and you are pressured to be beautiful. God forbid you keep your body healthy and are able to bring life into the world. Cry me a river.

[Els]

Yes ladies...we know you have a rough week every month and you are pressured to be beautiful. God forbid you keep your body healthy and are able to bring life into the world. Cry me a river.

 

 

And some men wonder why there is a 'large discrepancy' between the women who are successful in getting dates and the 'men' (read: him) who eminently aren't.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

jakelongot

That's a 2 way street. Women are just as guilty. Sometimes a woman will sleep with a guy quickly because she thinks that will keep him interested. If they had more self respect or felt less threatened by other females this wouldn't be a problem and she wouldn't jump in bed so fast.

 

I see....so either way, it's women's fault. Thanks for illustrating the large burden women are expected to live with in modern culture. Thanks for pointing out that either way, it's women's fault and the lack of personal responsibility some men are willing to take in today's culture. You've perfectly illustrated my point with your comment above.

 

 

Yes...because the only reason you have 9,000 pairs of shoes and a gym membership is because of men? And if you do, that's a "you" problem.

 

Did I say it was the only reason? No.

 

Women want to look good. The reality is that women live their own lives seeing the men in their lives and hearing the men in their lives make a lot of comments about women's looks. From brothers, to fathers, to boyfriends and male friends. Women spend a lot of money to look good so that she will be worthy enough for a man to want to be with. This is at least a portion of the equation. I never sasid that women *only* buy things for men to look good. However, this is PART of the reason women do some of the things to their bodies or spend their money on things to look attractive. Women spend a lot of money that men simply don't to live up to a social expectations of looks. So if men are going to talk about the pressures they have finacially for dates, why shouldn't women talk about the pressures they have financially to look good for said dates?

 

Now I know this is where the better evolved LS come in and say that they don't do that and someone loves them for who they are. Well not all of us have that luxury of being loved simply for who we are by members of the opposite sex. Of coures, there is a lot of grey in here but you are missing the point. One reason why women spend money on gyms and clothes is to look attractive. When you are attractive men like you and treat you nicer. This is money women spend to impress men. Men should do the same but usually it comes in differently.

 

 

Women are very good at discounting the tremendous amount of advantages they have in their life and playing up the negatives.

 

Whenever a guy says women have it easy, they are quick to respond with:

 

1.) Periods

2.) child birth

3.) make less money

 

Yes ladies...we know you have a rough week every month and you are pressured to be beautiful. God forbid you keep your body healthy and are able to bring life into the world. Cry me a river.

 

 

No one has it easy! Telling women they have it easy is condsending from the get go. There are advantages men have and there are advantages women have, but we all got our issues. And yes, that's right, women have to do it all the while giving birth and having higher expectations placed on their body regardless of what their bodies where designed for in giving birth. Godforbid you actually understand that no one gets out of life without struggle and hardship.

[RiverRunning]

I think the mindset of "I am woman, pay for me" is rapidly degrading. I'd think that in most set-ups, the paying is divided somewhat evenly. I do think that whoever asks somebody out first SHOULD expect to pay: and oftentimes, that's still the guy. And at the very least, if you can't afford to take her out to dinner, you can afford $10 to buy both of you a cup of coffee somewhere. If you can't, you likely shouldn't be dating. That's true of women too.

 

I'd never go on a date if I didn't have enough money to at LEAST pay my own bill, even if the guy offered to pay first. And I'd try to keep it equal. On a first date, I would always want to pay my half...just in case I don't see him again, I don't want to be left in his debt.

 

The whole "she wants me to pay for everything" argument goes both ways. I find that a lot of guys in their early to mid 20s expect me to pay for every date just because I'm not working a minimum wage job (mind you, I don't do much better in that department). At the same time, they've just been sitting on their butts, never try to get out of being a grocery bagger, siphon off of mom and dad, and go to college indefinitely.

 

I think that's the master tactic a lot of young guys use nowadays: they go to college FOREVER. Eight freakin' years for a bachelor's degree? Unless you had a serious problem in your family, or you worked full-time throughout school, you've GOT to be kidding me. But, until they're around their late 20s or so, it just makes them seem like they're working toward their future, and that's why they still live at home, yada, yada. If you don't suspect anything, you almost believe they're sincere about having a future.

 

Had an ex-boyfriend like that. Wanted me to pay for everything. We actually had to have DISCUSSIONS before going on a date during the 5-10% of the time that he actually paid. I would have to ask him to pay for me. Then, even if our bill was $15, he would look like he'd just been shot throughout the entire dinner. Of course, later on, I learned that he was such a cheapskate that he wasn't even TIPPING when we went out...

 

All of the expectations were on me in that relationship. And I wish that I could say his brand was rare: but in my experiences, most college-aged guys like that are just the same. High expectations of the girlfriend. Have to be thin, have to be spontaneous and fun all the time (my ex, and a good number of the guys I went out on dates, told me this was what they wanted).

 

They want a full-time worker to help pay the bills, someone who's going to do the primary child-rearing, etc. I **** you not: many have told me this. Their list of what they were looking for was absolutely unreal. While out with a few of the guys, I actually decided to mirror their desires. I started spouting off things I wanted...had to work full-time, make a certain amount, help take care of the kids, etc. In other words, I was matching my dates' requests.

 

The looks on their faces was PRICELESS. The date ended soon after that most of the time, prematurely. Why? Because they were 7 or 8 years into a bachelor's degree after switching majors multiple times, they were working the same job they had worked since 16, etc. They wanted ME to be bigger than life but couldn't even manage to meet me halfway.

 

So, yes, guys, it goes both ways. I've met far more men who expect me to be the bigger earner, care for the kids, do all the housework, etc., than I have met men who were willing to meet me even halfway.

 

I will now be fair and to keep the men from thinking I'm going on the assault, one of my exes was truly stellar when it came to paying for things. He insisted most of the time. When we lived together, I usually paid for groceries and cooked most of the time, and the rest of the time he would take us out to eat.

 

Great guy. Which is one of the reasons we're starting to see each other again. He had his stuff together: he was 25 when we first met, fresh out of college and working full-time.

 

I think that's the difference: I'm not interested in dating guys who are "in the making" anymore, if only because I'm long out of that phase myself. No more school, no more desperate job seeking. I find that when a guy is "in the making" with school or work, he almost never gets to where he needs to be. A year or two later he's still dead-end at school or work.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I've always been okay with men paying for dates. How can I help you understand?

 

A guy making a nice plan and taking care of every aspect of it, including paying, makes me feel good.

 

I never, however, felt entitled to it. I didn't expect it, and I paid (and pay now) for plenty of dates and other stuff.

 

I certainly can't conceive of finding some kind of justification for a man paying for dates due to the fact that I go to the gym or spend money on my considerable vanities. I do all that stuff because that's what I want to do. No man has to "repay" me for getting a Brazilian blowout or a facial with expensive dates. What an absurd concept.

 

I also don't think that an older man should be stuck with a bill more frequently than a younger man. Maybe a richer man more than a poorer one … but what does age have to do with it? Is the underlying idea there that a young woman is somehow "selling" her youth and beauty to an old fart?

[denise_xo]

I've met far more men who expect me to be the bigger earner, care for the kids, do all the housework, etc.,

 

Agree, this is just a load of BS. I will not engage with men who think women have a dish-washing gene (just like I don't think men come with a pay-for-dates gene). If a man can't deal with the thought of sharing chores related to house work and child rearing equally when both partners work full time, that's a complete deal breaker.

[fortyninethousand322]

My general rule of thumb is that if a woman offers to split the bill or even offers to pay for me, I assume she's not interested in further dates and just wants to do right by me (make sure I didn't waste any money on her). And if a woman wants me to pay she has no intention on seeing me further and just wants a free meal/activity.

 

It's one of those "heads she wins, tales I lose" sort of things.

[jakelongot]

I see....so either way, it's women's fault. Thanks for illustrating the large burden women are expected to live with in modern culture. Thanks for pointing out that either way, it's women's fault and the lack of personal responsibility some men are willing to take in today's culture. You've perfectly illustrated my point with your comment above.

 

How is that what i said? I was just pointing out that it was a 2 way street. Meaning that women are just as responsible as men (no more, no less). In general, men might want to jump in the sack quicker than women, but no one is putting a gun to their head. Equal responsibility

 

 

Did I say it was the only reason? No.

 

Women want to look good. The reality is that women live their own lives seeing the men in their lives and hearing the men in their lives make a lot of comments about women's looks. From brothers, to fathers, to boyfriends and male friends. Women spend a lot of money to look good so that she will be worthy enough for a man to want to be with. This is at least a portion of the equation. I never sasid that women *only* buy things for men to look good. However, this is PART of the reason women do some of the things to their bodies or spend their money on things to look attractive. Women spend a lot of money that men simply don't to live up to a social expectations of looks. So if men are going to talk about the pressures they have finacially for dates, why shouldn't women talk about the pressures they have financially to look good for said dates?

 

Again, this is a 2 way street. You want to look good because you hear how men talk about women? Ok...that is your choice. But as men we feel similar pressures. We are told you can't get a women unless you are charming or make a lot of money or take initiative or whatever. We feel those same societal pressures. Oh, by the way, we are also under a ton of pressure to look good, dress nice, etc...It is not just women.

 

 

Now I know this is where the better evolved LS come in and say that they don't do that and someone loves them for who they are. Well not all of us have that luxury of being loved simply for who we are by members of the opposite sex. Of coures, there is a lot of grey in here but you are missing the point. One reason why women spend money on gyms and clothes is to look attractive. When you are attractive men like you and treat you nicer. This is money women spend to impress men. Men should do the same but usually it comes in differently.

 

How are you not seeing the other side here? Men treat you nicer when you look more attractive? No ****. Guess what, it is the same for guys...sometimes even harder as you need to have a personality and a bank account to match. Some women can get by with just looks.

 

No one has it easy! Telling women they have it easy is condsending from the get go. There are advantages men have and there are advantages women have, but we all got our issues. And yes, that's right, women have to do it all the while giving birth and having higher expectations placed on their body regardless of what their bodies where designed for in giving birth. Godforbid you actually understand that no one gets out of life without struggle and hardship.

 

What!?!? You are the one who started saying how hard it was to be a women. I simply replied with the fact that we both have it hard. And just when you say "there are advantages men have and there are advantages women have" you follow it up with "women have to do it all while giving birth and having higher expectations placed on their body..."

 

Again, men have just as many expectations placed on them. Maybe less based on pure beauty than women, but certainly more in regards to money and success. And thank you again for bringing up "child birth" as a hardship. As I pointed out in my original post, one of the top 3 "go to" lines when talking about how unfair it is.

 

We all have it tough honey

[Mme. Chaucer]

My general rule of thumb is that if a woman offers to split the bill or even offers to pay for me, I assume she's not interested in further dates and just wants to do right by me (make sure I didn't waste any money on her). And if a woman wants me to pay she has no intention on seeing me further and just wants a free meal/activity.

 

It's one of those "heads she wins, tales I lose" sort of things.

 

You might want to throw this rule of thumb out the window!

[fortyninethousand322]

You might want to throw this rule of thumb out the window!

 

Well it hasn't been proven wrong yet.

[Els]

My general rule of thumb is that if a woman offers to split the bill or even offers to pay for me, I assume she's not interested in further dates and just wants to do right by me (make sure I didn't waste any money on her). And if a woman wants me to pay she has no intention on seeing me further and just wants a free meal/activity.

 

It's one of those "heads she wins, tales I lose" sort of things.

 

ROFL this cracked me up.

[zengirl]

I've always been okay with men paying for dates. How can I help you understand?

 

A guy making a nice plan and taking care of every aspect of it, including paying, makes me feel good.

 

Right. When people do nice things for me, I feel good. I see no need to apologize for that or pretend otherwise.

 

I never, however, felt entitled to it. I didn't expect it, and I paid (and pay now) for plenty of dates and other stuff.

 

I certainly can't conceive of finding some kind of justification for a man paying for dates due to the fact that I go to the gym or spend money on my considerable vanities. I do all that stuff because that's what I want to do. No man has to "repay" me for getting a Brazilian blowout or a facial with expensive dates. What an absurd concept.

 

I also don't think that an older man should be stuck with a bill more frequently than a younger man. Maybe a richer man more than a poorer one … but what does age have to do with it? Is the underlying idea there that a young woman is somehow "selling" her youth and beauty to an old fart?

 

Agree as well. I do think income (male or female) generally plays in. Someone who makes a lot more and has a lot more disposable income will pay for more in a relationship, typically, and by my personal opinion, should do so. Why allow someone to overburden themselves to chip in when you can easily pick up the bill? I would never do that and have also chosen to pick up the bill under those circumstances, where I had more disposable income, etc.

[xxoo]

When people enjoy each other's company, they both contribute effort and resources into spending time together. Money is one resource, but there are others, like you describe in your op.

 

As you've found in your friendship with a wealthier family, the monetary contribution does not need to be equal for all to be satisfied and feel valued. Surely those guys would be smart enough to see it if you were just hanging out with them for free stuff! It should be equally clear in dating.

[Oxy Moronovich]

Why on Earth do people feel guilty about receiving generosity?

We're not talking about in general. We're talking about on dates. Only a minority of women give as much financially on dates as they receive.

[zengirl]

We're not talking about in general. We're talking about on dates. Only a minority of women give as much financially on dates as they receive.

 

And I was talking about universally --- if someone wants to offer something to me, generously, because they'd like to do so (which is what I HAVE to assume when a man offers to cover a check), I am a-okay with it, whether it's on a date or elsewhere. If I ever felt there were "strings attached," of course I was not okay with it and declined.

 

Tit for tat is not my game. I give and receive without worrying about calculation. I suggest only offering to cover dinner when what you want is the feeling that you generously covered dinner.

[Mme. Chaucer]

We're not talking about in general. We're talking about on dates. Only a minority of women give as much financially on dates as they receive.

 

Receiving generosity on a date is no different from receiving it in other areas of life.

 

We are not talking here about the percentage of which gender gives / does more or less.

 

I don't get ANY of the problems around this. There are so many guys who complain about paying for dates. These guys should NEVER pay for dates, rather than complaining about it. There are women complaining about guys who won't pay for dates, and I believe it would be possible to avoid such men completely and stick with the "traditional" type.

 

Personally, I'm glad that there are options and that no one has to be constrained within extremely rigid social codes where dating is concerned, anymore.

 

Think for yourselves and do what you believe is right for you.

[Feelsgoodman]

Agree as well. I do think income (male or female) generally plays in. Someone who makes a lot more and has a lot more disposable income will pay for more in a relationship, typically, and by my personal opinion, should do so. Why allow someone to overburden themselves to chip in when you can easily pick up the bill? I would never do that and have also chosen to pick up the bill under those circumstances, where I had more disposable income, etc.

What you are describing is basically communism on a personal relationship level. The problem with this, as with communism in general, is that it removes the incentive from the poorer partner to try harder and get richer. Why put in the effort when you can just coast on your wealthier partner's coattails?

[Els]

What you are describing is basically communism on a personal relationship level. The problem with this, as with communism in general, is that it removes the incentive from the poorer partner to try harder and get richer. Why put in the effort when you can just coast on your wealthier partner's coattails?

 

In the case of women and you, the question is more likely 'Why put in the effort when your partner thinks that 'wives who are not housewives are stupid''?

[Woggle]

Many of these changes are ones that women demanded and now that they realize they are some aspects they might not like they blame men for them.

 

I think men are just realizing we can't win and are saying the hell with it. It's just too much drama and confusion to make the effort to try and please women so why even bother and why put strain on your wallet for it?

[polish26]

I actually went on a date last night, and the girl insisted on paying half! I was a little surprised, and she said "Hey, I'm a modern times kind of girl... Why should you pay for everything".... Wow! I was not only impressed, but I was also just not expecting that! This girl is already quite amazing in my eyes, and that just put her up another notch.

[dasein]

OP whenever this topic gets raised, there will be endless off-topic, privileged rationalizing along the lines of "I like nice people!" "men want things too!" and other nonsense, together with some straightforward acknowledgement of the ridiculousness of the "man pays" standard from the more honest posters. These threads never disappoint in that regard.

 

Men who don't pay get slandered more often than not, even by types who claim dishonestly "Oh, it's nice but I don't expect it!" This is plain social extortion that countless women participate in by cheap calling. Women aren't held socially or culturally accountable for the ridiculous things they say and lies they tell as much as men are, so it's pervasive.

 

Luckily the bogus "who asks should pay" and "I have to spend more to look good" distortions haven't come up yet. Maybe that those are stupid responses to the issue is finally sinking in here.

[ATrainofAngels]

I actually went on a date last night, and the girl insisted on paying half! I was a little surprised, and she said "Hey, I'm a modern times kind of girl... Why should you pay for everything".... Wow! I was not only impressed, but I was also just not expecting that! This girl is already quite amazing in my eyes, and that just put her up another notch.

 

 

 

that girl is a total winner. Date her

 

 

 

if a girl showed that kind of attitude towards me, I would go out of my way to spoil her in other areas. That's fantastic

Edited June 13, 2012 by ATrainofAngels

[zengirl]

Receiving generosity on a date is no different from receiving it in other areas of life.

 

Basically, this. I don't gauge generosity differently in different areas or by different genders. It would seem odd to me, to do so.

 

I don't get ANY of the problems around this. There are so many guys who complain about paying for dates. These guys should NEVER pay for dates, rather than complaining about it. There are women complaining about guys who won't pay for dates, and I believe it would be possible to avoid such men completely and stick with the "traditional" type.

 

Agree entirely. I see no reason to complain at all. I said in a recent thread it basically comes down to: Men who choose to pay for dates do so either because they genuinely want to and feel good when they do so OR* feel they want to do so to impress someone or compete. Partnerships are communal, if thats' what you mean.

 

*Now, I don't think it's good to act from the latter, but I don't want to assume the worst about someone, so unless I *feel* they are offering insincerely, I will assume the offer is sincere and they WANT to pay. I really don't think anyone should offer to pay for this reason, but the beef these men should have is with themselves and other men who 'compete' in this way, not women.

 

What you are describing is basically communism on a personal relationship level. The problem with this, as with communism in general, is that it removes the incentive from the poorer partner to try harder and get richer. Why put in the effort when you can just coast on your wealthier partner's coattails?

 

Communism can't be done on a "personal" level. The whole idea is that it is systematic among populations. You can't have individual communism. That's absurd. At any rate, if you are PARTNERS, seems odd not to want to help each other out however possible.

[Daniel5987]

This is where managing expectations, good communication and honesty can help to mitigate those kinds of situations.

 

By always paying, you created/reinforced the expectation in your ex and therefore any behaviour that didn't match was questioned as suspect and considered rocking the boat.

 

The good communication and honesty comes in where you don't expect your SO to be a mind-reader when it comes to your wants and needs. If you want her to pay sometimes, then you need to tell her. Be honest about your wants and needs. She not a mindreader and neither are you.

 

Otherwise, this is the kind of stuff that creates resentment all round.

 

Oh I'm not sure if this is in response to my post but il answer it anyway

Basically whenever I said look I'm low on money now is it okay if you pay for your meal, she'd treat it as some sort of big deal. Just ungrateful really, I'd never dream of kicking up a fuss like that.

 

I totally understand what your saying it does make sense though but in my situation it was just a total lack of appreciation!

 

Oh well that's why she's my ex haha!