Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Els]

You are correct. Women are pathetic creatures of selfish, rotten core of darkness. I never even heard about a guy on a date, saying or doing thigs, so he would not have to pay his share.

 

Way to twist my words. There are plenty of equally low things some guys have done, that are the equivalent of what those women did. Should I tell you about this guy whom I know has a gf but gets laid in bars every week or so and brags to his friends about it? I could, but it'd be off-topic.

 

Agreed, that is why I think that those that suggest men saying they want to go dutch ahead seems silly to me. I think many people would be off-put by having the topic brought up even if they intended to split the bill.

 

I personally don't think men should say it, they should just do it. If the woman tries to get out of it, well, pay, never see her again, and chalk it up to a bullet dodged.

 

Lol, I was at a wine festival with some friends and my gf nno too long ago. I went over to purchase a cigar from the tent and an attractive young lady, unable to negotiate a discount on any cigar there, wanted to know if I would buy her a cigar because she was a girl. I politely informed her that I did not mind, but my gf would.

 

Sounds like you handled it perfectly.

[zengirl]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. While several female posters have mentioned that men can just tell women they want to go dutch, I do wonder why in this day of so many different wants and needs in relationships, women cannot be expected to disclose their preferences as well. After all, in any other relationship the assumption is that everyone go dutch unless otherwise stated.

 

Personally, I definitely assume I'll be paying my share until someone offers, and I never had any problem doing so, in dating or otherwise. That's not to say that I didn't take a man up on his offer, IF he tried to cover the bill (I certainly did, quite often), and I definitely appreciated his generosity and thought it was kind of him to do so. That's what I mean about "expecting" a man to pay being different than "liking" it.

 

I can't tell you how many women coyly look away or excuse themselves to the restroom the minute the bill shows up to the table during my years of dating.

 

The problem then, however, isn't with "paying for dates" so much as with expectation and entitlement, which I think are often bad, no matter what the person feels entitled to. I don't have a problem with a guy who doesn't want to pay for dates. I *do* have a problem with a guy (or gal) who wants to dictate what other people do and don't do on THEIR dates.

 

As I stated in my personal struggles to find the right person, it is not paying for a woman that I truly despise but paying for a woman that has not taken the time to show any investment in a relationship with me.

 

I completely understand and even empathize with that notion. That is why, even though I appreciated the offer, I often declined if a man I knew I was not interested in offered to cover dinner. Because I know I am going to disappoint him and don't want him to overly invest. However, if I do feel an investment towards a man and plan to see him again, I see no reason why I should not have said, "Thank you, that's nice" and let him pay a bill when he offered.

 

I've never dated a man (and now never will! ) who was a good potential and said, "I believe in going dutch on first dates." Every man I've ever thought, "Yes, I'd go out with him again," even before the check came and who paid was ever an issue, has offered -- sometimes ardently -- on paying. Part of that is living in the South, I'm sure.

[kaylan]

Also, to the men here....dont give a fvk what women think about how you want to date. Thats how I roll and thats how you should roll. Have an abundance mentality and KNOW that you are a catch based on your attributes and qualities. Theres plenty of women out there, and a chick who will be a match for you dating-wise will not be bothered if you wanna go dutch.

 

Like I said, Ive never had a problem with it...and Id never care if a chick wrote me off because of it. There are more fish in the sea and Im not some degenerate who cannot land a woman. Are you? If not then dont sweat this bullcrap. Seriously.

 

My outlook on dating got so much better once I adopted an outlook not too outcome oriented. Gotta be prepared to accept good or bad consequences. I wish more dudes who start seeing themselves as someone to be snatched up and not looking at women as the prize to be snatched up. Yes, there are women out there who are prizes and catches...but shes only a catch if she was compatible with you to begin with. And if you disagree on something small like "who pays?" and it becomes a deal-breaker, then she wasnt a prize in your life.

 

Maybe Im becoming mature and wiser, but I dont worry about a damn thing really anymore. I used to obsess about my looks, about my height at one point, about my crappy car, and a few other things....but then I realized the only reason I ever found those things to be a problem was not because I felt they were problem, but because I let folks online pollute my mind. Out in the real world when you click with someone, all this crap we argue about wont matter much at all.

 

Keep it movin'

Edited June 14, 2012 by kaylan

[dasein]

- Dasein, while men have been called cheap (even in this thread multiple times) for not wanting to pay for dates and women may gossip to their friends about such things, they are not alerting the whole eastern seaboard.

 

You are thinking like a man. Of course men don't do such, we don't spend hours a day on the phone or FB generally. We generally don't have 200 people in our phones for endless chatter and 500 FB "friends" to broadcast what flavor of cupcake we are eating. They do. I hear it constantly from otherwise cool female friends directed at friends and acquaintances of mine, "he's cheap, he's gay, he's a momma's boy, he doesn't bathe enough" yaddayadda, and have no doubt they do it to me behind my back. If you don't think a huge chunk of female time is spent sitting around complaining about and speculating on the attributes of specific men including cheap calling and money generally, hang around more women as friends. Or just read threads here where whenever a man doesn't do something a woman wants he's instantly Snidely Whiplash and the pile-on begins. Hell just read this thread and the posts directed at me personally versus those responsive to the actual points I post.

 

If they had, I would never have gotten so many dates.

 

IIRC, you live in a relatively large dating pool. Try living in a pool of 100k or less (even substantially more), and you will find out real fast how important your rep on the grapevine is. I had a friend in NYC whose favorite pickup line was "you sellin'?" It worked, amazingly, who would have thought so many women in NYC would appreciate being compared to a high class call girl?... either that or they had good senses of humor. Can't do that where I live nor where many others live, no sir.

[Els]

You are thinking like a man. Of course men don't do such, we don't spend hours a day on the phone or FB generally. We generally don't have 200 people in our phones for endless chatter and 500 FB "friends" to broadcast what flavor of cupcake we are eating. They do. I hear it constantly from otherwise cool female friends directed at friends and acquaintances of mine, "he's cheap, he's gay, he's a momma's boy, he doesn't bathe enough" yaddayadda, and have no doubt they do it to me behind my back. If you don't think a huge chunk of female time is spent sitting around complaining about and speculating on the attributes of specific men including cheap calling and money generally, hang around more women as friends. Or just read threads here where whenever a man doesn't do something a woman wants he's instantly Snidely Whiplash and the pile-on begins. Hell just read this thread and the posts directed at me personally versus those responsive to the actual points I post.

 

 

Yup, the 'pile-on' was definitely just because you stated that you don't wish to pay on dates. How dare you make a personal choice of your own? That's also why kaylan and Sanman were attacked so vigorously by zengirl, Mme, and I in this very thread, right?

 

Oh, wait.

[RedFemale]

Women think that sh*t surrounded by flies, means being popular.

[Els]

 

Maybe Im becoming mature and wiser, but I dont worry about a damn thing really anymore. I used to obsess about my looks, about my height at one point, about my crappy car, and a few other things....but then I realized the only reason I ever found those things to be a problem was not because I felt they were problem, but because I let folks online pollute my mind. Out in the real world when you click with someone, all this crap we argue about wont matter much at all.

 

Keep it movin'

 

Precisely! Compatibility is all that really matters in this case. If a person has strong opinions about such things, it's even more important for them to stick to their guns, because otherwise they're just going to get incompatible partners who expect the state of things to persist (since he DID pay for the first few dates after all), and they'll end up building resentment and not being happy in the relationship.

 

People should not be so afraid about being dismissed by some members of the opposite sex, IMO. Anyone who writes you off wasn't really meant to be in the first place, so why does it matter?

[Sanman]

You are thinking like a man. Of course men don't do such, we don't spend hours a day on the phone or FB generally. We generally don't have 200 people in our phones for endless chatter and 500 FB "friends" to broadcast what flavor of cupcake we are eating. They do. I hear it constantly from otherwise cool female friends directed at friends and acquaintances of mine, "he's cheap, he's gay, he's a momma's boy, he doesn't bathe enough" yaddayadda, and have no doubt they do it to me behind my back. If you don't think a huge chunk of female time is spent sitting around complaining about and speculating on the attributes of specific men including cheap calling and money generally, hang around more women as friends.

 

Avoid women who do too much of this stuff. Of my relationships, only one has an FB account and none twitter. They mostly did not like to talk on the phone too much either. I guess I like the tom-boyish/ t-shirt and jeans girls; the kind that are not afraid to get dirty and help me re-finish a bathroom or some other home improvement.

 

 

 

IIRC, you live in a relatively large dating pool. Try living in a pool of 100k or less (even substantially more), and you will find out real fast how important your rep on the grapevine is. I had a friend in NYC whose favorite pickup line was "you sellin'?" It worked, amazingly, who would have thought so many women in NYC would appreciate being compared to a high class call girl?... either that or they had good senses of humor. Can't do that where I live nor where many others live, no sir.

 

I'm not going to argue with you here because I do have a large dating pool. Even then, I those someone out of my area. Don't settle for what is geographically close, look beyond for someone that is more compatible. It will make you happier in the end. It just takes one.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I wonder if a man who accepted an invitation to eat a meal prepared for him for a woman would be accused of being party to a vile conspiracy of keeping women in their historically defined gender role? Or of being a hypocrite, because perhaps he doesn't intend to be the sole breadwinner in any relationship he might have with a woman? Does eating a meal cooked by a woman (or cooking a meal for a man, if you are a woman) equate to both parties being absolutely aligned with traditional gender roles across the board, or else they are a shameful whore and / or hypocrite?

 

Thank God there isn't a woman here on LS ready to wave that placard!

 

Is a woman who does not conform to the role going to be facing slander? Throughout her ENTIRE STATE!?!?! Is a woman not cooking dinner comparable to not going to war when drafted, like not paying for dates is for men?

 

Oh the humanity.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[zengirl]

Yup, the 'pile-on' was definitely just because you stated that you don't wish to pay on dates. How dare you make a personal choice of your own? That's also why kaylan and Sanman were attacked so vigorously by zengirl, Mme, and I in this very thread, right?

 

Oh, wait.

 

And why I've said a myriad of times that I don't think men *need* to pay for dates and should not if they don't want to.

 

Avoid women who do too much of this stuff. Of my relationships, only one has an FB account and none twitter. They mostly did not like to talk on the phone too much either. I guess I like the tom-boyish/ t-shirt and jeans girls; the kind that are not afraid to get dirty and help me re-finish a bathroom or some other home improvement.

 

Most women I know don't spend much time on FB and Twitter, unless they Tweet for work (in Marketing/PR or writers or whatever) or something, and even then it's not the personal account stuff. They may have FB, but they hardly post every day. And Hubby definitely checks his FB and Twitter every day, whereas I haven't logged into FB since April, I think, for my best friend's b-day to set up an event because that's easier for some folks. Again, it's all about the pool you fish in and the bait you use! Doing something insincerely - like picking up a check you honestly don't want to - is using the wrong bait for sure.

[Badsingularity]

Damn, you are cruel.

 

When we see a retarded person on the street, we all know he is retarded. You dont need to point and call him a retard. LOL :D:D

 

Anger at ,and jealousy of, men like myself who are successful (despite not being rich, tall, or having the perfect body) with women will get you no where.

 

You should probably try reading my posts in which I try to help guys like you understand women better.

 

Instead of mocking, whining, and complaining.

[maybealone]

I wonder if a man who accepted an invitation to eat a meal prepared for him for a woman would be accused of being party to a vile conspiracy of keeping women in their historically defined gender role?

 

I'm not sure. All I know is he damn well better offer to pay for half the groceries.

[dasein]

Thank God there isn't a woman here on LS ready to wave that placard!

 

Plenty willing to wave a "bad analogy" placard though. 1. Women aren't expected to cook a meal as part of early dating. Men, though, are expected to pay for early dates. 2. Men don't slander women who don't cook meals on the first couple of dates. Women slander men who don't pay for the first couple of dates though. 3. So few American women actually know how to cook today (strangely enough, they are -great- at being foodies and sucking up expensive food someone else prepared and paid for) that the whole analogy is a "how many angels on the head of a pin" conjecture. Analogy fails.

[William]

SO glad this master thread was created. Can we have a 30-day holiday for anyone who creates a new thread after this, please?

Duplicate threads will be two points for the first offense and five points for each subsequent offense. Ten points in ten days gets 15 days vacation, meaning all posts will require moderator approval. We will be creating other consolidated/master threads on commonly discussed subjects. Look for them. Carry on.

 

Edited to add that we will periodically close this thread for review and will infract members and delete posts as appropriate. It's really nice to click on the top of the forum to find a great thread to whet my appetite for vacations Tonight's iteration will be on the fly, so I'll leave the thread open.

 

Translation: Post in a respectful and civil manner. It's doable. Hard, I know.

Edited June 15, 2012 by William
Reading reports

[veggirl]

OMG this was a terrible idea.

 

You already know who will like whose posts and everything

 

This is staying on the front page?!

 

I'm a 50/50 girl, ftr. I do think women expect men to pay, and much more than is admitted on this thread tbh, and I wouldn't like that if I was a guy. I wouldn't like a guy who made a stink about how he WASN'T paying for me though either. It's avoidable, I offer half and if it's accepted cool, if not then I get the bill next time.

 

Curious as to how you all do it in real life, like take your last or current R, how did the paying dynamic play out for the first few dates?

 

That might be insightful / interesting?

[zengirl]

Curious as to how you all do it in real life, like take your last or current R, how did the paying dynamic play out for the first few dates?

 

That might be insightful / interesting?

 

With my husband, we met from OKC and we had only plans to go to dinner on the first date. We met up for dinner, the waiter gave the bill to him at the end, I asked what the total was, reaching for my wallet, and he said he was paying for dinner -- fairly insistently.* We did go out for drinks later, and I bought 1 of the 2 rounds, though he made a playful fuss about it. It was the kind of thing where he was clearly happy I *would* cover it, but didn't really want me to. Not pushy, just that playfully insistent attitude. I've seen pushy guys too, and I don't really like THAT, but I have to admit I do like a guy who insists on being generous in a playful way with no expectation, much like Hubby's attitude. I've experienced that a fair amount.

 

ETA: *I've experienced that A LOT after a good date with many men who will fully admit they expect themselves to pay for the first date; it's a funny thing to tie into your self esteem, but heck, I fully expect MYSELF to put on makeup if I'm going to leave the house (despite understanding it's a bit archaic), as a Southern woman, so I get that attitude, honestly.

 

As to dates beyond that, he paid for most of the first few dates, with me chipping in here or there. I often bought tickets or wine and covered some full checks here and there. For most of our dating, he probably paid the bulk -- mostly because he had a ton of disposable income and I did not because I was still a teacher at the time. Even so, he still makes 2x what I do and I make a LOT more than I did when we first met.

 

Hubby and I both are gift-buyers and express our affection that way, so we're usually tripping over ourselves to do things for each other, not the other way around trying to 'get' what we can. I couldn't be with a man who WASN'T generous, though generosity certainly isn't just with money on either side! I've picked up many a check in my life, and I prefer to alternate that rather than go dutch. I've paid more in Rs where I was the higher earner and less in Rs where I was the lower earner, generally.

Edited June 15, 2012 by zengirl

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I think the last time I went on a date was over a year ago. Usually we started with coffee/drinks dates. I liked this because you can just sit and talk with someone and it's not too serious. It's not some big dinner that you have to feel the pressure of sitting through. I was not looking to go out with men just so they could pay for stuff. I don't really think most women do that. I prefer that first dates be causual where a lot of money isn't being spent.

A few times it was a lunch date at an Applebees or something like that but still pretty inexpensive. I don't usually drink so I would order a diet coke and he might have had a beer or something like that. I'd order salad or a burger or half soup/half sandwhich usually and I found that the guys would order something more expensive usually. (When I was dating I never thought about all this but now that all this money stuff is being brought into question it's making me think about it.) I always offered to pay and most of the time, the guy wouldn't let me and yes, this made me feel like I was being treated with respect. There were men I insisted on paying because I wasn't interested in them and didn't want to take advantage of it. But if I was interested, and they declined my offer to pay, i liked being treated traditionally.

 

There where times when I made more of the effort to meet the guy near where he lived and worked. Where I put more effort into getting where he was then where I was. I am thinking that I should have asked these guys for gas money just so everything was equal. There was a particular time I remember going into NYC to see a guy play and sing at a place near where he lived, that he couldn't even be bothered buying me a cup of coffee. I traveled an hour-half and paid the money for the train and the gas to get to the train station and he just had to walk down the block and he never offered to even get me a drink.

 

I've been on dates where I tried getting my coffee first so the guy wouldn't feel obligated. I've been on dates where we were both standing at the counter and I was getting ready to pay and the guy would tell me he was getting it. But ultimately, if a cup of coffee was going to cause such angst for him, he wouldn't be the right man for me anyway.

 

I remember one lunch date I went on where we just went for pizza and I was kind of nervous about the date (I usually get nervous on first dates no matter what) and I almost walked out of the place without paying. We finished and I started walking to the door and turned around to see if he was following me and he was by the cash register. I felt awful because I just forgot and started heading for the door. I think from his perspective it looked like I just expected him to pay. But that wasn't the case. I quickly turned around and apologized and started to get my money out to pay but he paid for it. However, I think the damage was done. So guys, keep in mind that women aren't perfect either and are intentions aren't always nefarious to punish you to pay for us.

 

The reality is I don't want to be with a man that only pays because he feels obligated to. I don't think men want to go out on dates with women that feel obligated to treat him certain ways either that she may not. Kind of like how oral isn't fun if a woman isn't really into it...same concept. I want to be with a man that sincerely is generous. That wants to treat me special, not like everyone else. And I am not saying men don't want the same thing. I'm only saying that when a man pays, and I am into him, yeah, it makes me feel special to him. He is willing to share his resources because he likes me. If it's done out of sincercity and not just out of obligation. And these are the guys I try to keep my eyes open.

[Els]

OMG this was a terrible idea.

 

You already know who will like whose posts and everything

 

This is staying on the front page?!

 

Isn't that better than seeing a new thread getting created about it every couple of days or so? Some posters here are pretty obsessed about this one way or the other.

 

I do think women expect men to pay, and much more than is admitted on this thread tbh, and I wouldn't like that if I was a guy.

 

I don't think anyone said that some women don't. I can already name you a few posters here who do. But it's like anything else in relationships - avoid people with the traits that you find distasteful. Relationships aren't arranged anymore, you don't have to pay a $3000 bride price for a girl just because your parents and hers decided that you should be together.

 

I wouldn't like a guy who made a stink about how he WASN'T paying for me though either. It's avoidable, I offer half and if it's accepted cool, if not then I get the bill next time.

 

Ditto.

 

Curious as to how you all do it in real life, like take your last or current R, how did the paying dynamic play out for the first few dates?

 

That might be insightful / interesting?

 

I come from a fairly traditional and conservative culture, so they mostly insist and turn down my offers. It's really not something I care about terribly much though. I admit to a preference for men who do pay, just as some men have preferences for women who wear heels (analogy used earlier in the thread). But I'd never do any of the things I read about here such as expecting it, or trying to avoid it, or trash-talking someone who doesn't do it, etc, nor would I turn down a genuinely good guy for this alone. In fact, even with as much as men pay in my culture, I've rarely seen women blatantly trash-talk men for not paying. Those who do are very lacking in finesse or respect or just decent quality in general.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Elswyth

[Els]

I have to admit I do like a guy who insists on being generous in a playful way with no expectation, much like Hubby's attitude. I've experienced that a fair amount.

 

This, pretty much.

 

I think we all need to clarify some basic definitions to have any sort of productive discussion here (if that were even possible ). Feel free to comment/add to the list if anyone disagrees.

 

Preference/liking :

'I'm a sucker for girls with long hair. They're so hot '

'I think that guy was really sweet for insisting on picking up the bill '

 

Requirement:

'I absolutely need a girl to have long hair for me to be attracted to her. That is my bare minimum requirement.'

'I am not interested in guys who don't pay for me.'

 

Expectation:

'Girls should all keep their hair long. Girls with short hair are all unattractive'

'Men should all pay for the first date because I spend so much time making myself attractive, it's only fair that they do.'

 

Putting down:

'Geez, that girl with short hair is fugly as hell. I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole.'

'Men who don't pay for dates are cheap, stingy, horrible people.'

[Sanman]

 

Curious as to how you all do it in real life, like take your last or current R, how did the paying dynamic play out for the first few dates?

 

My last three relationships, we split relationships costs fairly evenly. At the time, all the people I dated were graduate students (as I was) and so money was tight all around. Of those three, I split the bill on the first date twice. Only with my current gf did I not do so, but that was because we had known each other for months before dating and it was not the usual OLD or bar chat for 20 min and date scenario. One of those ex-gf did split costs, but did not like to do so. She wanted to be taken care of and was, frankly, very poor with finances. She would spend extravagantly on fancy dinners and clothes and have no rent money come the end of the month. Then, I got called cheap since I could not let her borrow rent money (which I wold never do even if I had it with someone I date for only a few months). She still owes me $500 I will never see and in her mind that is fine because she is the girl. Prior to those three, it was a mixed bag.

[kaylan]

Whats weird to me is how people keep comparing a women wanting a guy to pay for a date to a man wanting a woman with a certain physical feature.

 

Its 2012...women can make their own cash, so its not like most women are forgoing their physical desires just because they found a guy who pays for them. Women are as visual as men in my experience and definitely care about looks. So id wish wed stop pretending they arent with these silly comparisons of money and looks.

 

From everything Ive seen in life, a girl isnt going to stop seeing a guy shes very attracted to just because he wanted to go dutch the first few dates

[veggirl]

Cool, I like the early date stories

 

It's true that things just flow when you are with someone and there is a mutual interest. My BF and I had a 2-part first date, he paid for the 1st, I paid for the 2nd. He started pulling out his wallet for the 2nd part but I said "No I got it, you paid already" and I think he was like but he let me pay for it.

 

I have NEVER thought about the paying structure of our early dating other than here on LS, lol. It's so funny, I would probably not even REMEMBER who paid for what if it wasn't for these threads.

 

Isn't that better than seeing a new thread getting created about it every couple of days or so? Some posters here are pretty obsessed about this one way or the other.

 

LOL yes, good point!

[Els]

I have NEVER thought about the paying structure of our early dating other than here on LS, lol. It's so funny, I would probably not even REMEMBER who paid for what if it wasn't for these threads.

 

Hahah, I 'dated' very little - usually things progressed from a friendship and if I accepted a date it meant that I already liked them. So I have had pretty few first dates, and they were all memorable.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

But it's like anything else in relationships - avoid people with the traits that you find distasteful.

 

Sheesh, you are such a buzzkiller. Why would anyone do that when it's so much more fun to denigrate an entire gender, get all rabid-like and creative with fabricating conspiracy theories and faux historical and social information, use multisyllabic words and misapplied legal terminology to dismiss opinions that don't conform to one's own …

 

because some women "allow" men to pay for dates? Or, even because some women are obnoxious in their expectation of that?

 

Where's your joie de vivre?

[sally4sara]

I asked my husband to our first outing knowing his job had recently been eliminated due to funding cuts. I paid for all expenses for this outing and a few others till his job position was reopened and they asked him back. The rightness, wrongness or fairness of the cost of our outings was never an issue or even something I think either of us spent much time thinking about let alone the point of contention is seems to be for many LS folks.

However, we are both really interesting people with lots of stories to tell and an abundance of humor (and modesty ). For this reason, we can have a blast on the cheap. He impressed me by being one of the most resourceful people I've ever known. The skills! I tell ya! What you all waste money on he can attain for pennies, barter or free.

Now that we're a bit grown in the wallets from where we began, he enjoys the occasional mock benevolent benefactor routine. Its our money so I'm not getting "pampered". He just likes to show me how much I matter to him by planning outings my frugal sensibilities would never allow myself to enjoy. He likes the whole gentlemanly attentiveness that goes into planning an outing more tailored to my interests than his own.

 

All I see anymore when people get in a huff over this topic is a bunch of boring people who don't want to admit they have to use money to disguise how boring they really are. Maybe, if you were not so boring, you'd be able to find something else to use other than money but then you might not be so damn boring if you could manage that. But you are boring and so you can only draw interest by flashing the cash. You know it and when it brings out the opportunistic types, you take it out on their gender rather than look at what bait you're fishing with to compensate for your boring and abrasive personality.

 

And then there are those who are boring but won't acknowledge it. Instead they look to how much money someone will spend on having them around as a way of assessing how interesting they must be. Ever consider your date already knows all they want to know about what you've got to offer and just intends to suffer your company long enough to be allowed to use your body as a masturbatory tool for monetary compensation?