Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Seductive]

You want to know something else Eastern Europe, India, Thailand, Vietnam and the Middle East have in common? In exchange for being a man you get a woman. Most Western women expect the benefits of the 1950's without cooking my food, ironing my clothes and cleaning my house.

 

 

You have a point. We have lost and forgotten what it means to be in touch with our femininity and masculinity. That's why people are so confused now these days about dating.

[dasein]

You are obviously a thoughtful poster, seductive, and apologize for the tone I took in my prior reply. This has been a long and heated debate on LS which is why it has its own thread, and people have formed very distinct strong opinions on the issue.

[musemaj11]

In my observation, the difference that a man has to spend on a date in comparison to the woman grows or shrinks depending on the difference of level of physical attractiveness between the two. If the woman is far more attractive then the man has to spend a lot more. And if the man is more attractive then the woman usually will be the one spending more money.

 

I guess such is life.

 

My beliefs stem from the culture that my parents come from, which is India. The concept of going "dutch" is unheard of. Even when friends go out, they fight over who gets to pay for the bill. If you're a guest at someone's house, the family hosting you will pay for you and treat you like a king or a queen. We don't even ask our friends to pay for gas money, if we are giving them a ride or driving.

 

My friends from Eastern Europe, Vietnam, Thailand and the Middle-East were raised with similar beliefs. From what I've read about Southern Europe, it seems like splitting the bill is also considered rude. It just depends on your upbringing.

 

 

Since going dutch is an American concept, I would suggest the men in this forum to maybe target white-American women? I've met a lot of white-American women that are okay with going dutch. They say they feel embarrassed at "allowing" a man to pay or they feel spoiled. In Indian families, it's the norm to spoil the daughter and the daughter-in-law by lavishing her with jewelry and clothing. It's also rude for an Indian woman to reject someone's offer of generosity, especially when it's coming from an elder. My white friend teases me and calls me a "spoiled dothead", which I think is hilarious (he means well. He's just being playful).

 

Good luck to all you guys! Hope you find the woman that you're looking for.

Yea but when Indian men die, their women have to jump into the fire following them ...

 

I know its an exaggeration, but you cannot compare Indian culture with American culture.

 

In America women have equal or more money and better jobs than men. Also they dont believe that its their gender task to do everything at home and they dont see their men as their superiors.

[bac]

because a woman already pays with her mere presence, okay, you should be grateful enough that she showed up to hang out with you in the first place because that already is a really priceless sacrifice in itself

 

I feel the same way. It is like I give him a chance to be good enough to get what he wants or to make me like him. If he cannot be good enough for me, it is only his problem.

That is true that it is a real sacrifice in itself to date most of men.

[mesmerized]

I feel the same way. It is like I give him a chance to be good enough to get what he wants or to make me like him. If he cannot be good enough for me, it is only his problem.

That is true that it is a real sacrifice in itself to date most of men.

 

 

:rolleyes: I can't tell if you are being real or are joking....I mean I do agree most men aren't worth dating (not to me anyway), but why go on a date with a man who you think that about in the first place?

 

I thought only men on this board are kinda crazy, guess I was wrong

[Woggle]

I don't mind paying but this attitude that a man pays simply for the privilege of being in a woman's presence is the reason why many men don't like doing it.

[zengirl]

There is no clear right or wrong. I feel that women should be more assertive in paying because the precedent we have now is not good. Society should move to place where women shouldn't expect to be paid for, where they should expect to pay half.

 

I think it has moved there in many ways. I do not know women who expect to be paid for (I'm sure they're out there, but I mean in my actual social circle) but I do know many women who will let a guy who offers pick up a check on those early dates. I don't know any couples that have continually lopsided expenses - as far as I can tell - by gender, though I do know some who have continually lopsided expenses, based on the fact that one is a Kindergarten teacher and the other is a hotshot lawyer or whatever (in that example, of my real friends, the man is the Kindergarten teacher fwiw). But that goes either way, though statistically men often do make more and choose more lucrative careers.

 

You still didn't really answer my question: Why should a woman need to turn a man's offer down? Why is he offering insincerely if he doesn't want to pick up that check? Why should he be indulged if he is and get the benefit of offering to pick up the whole tab (whatever that is to him) and not be taken up on it? Granted, if a guy continually offers out of habit, like Ruby's situation, I personally would be proactive and chip in sometimes. But I would expect a guy who really wanted to go dutch or just needed to, financially, to at the very least NOT OFFER to pay the whole bill. I'm not even saying he needs to say, "Let's go dutch." That can be reasonably assumed until an offer is made.

 

Why can't everyone just pay for themselves unless someone WANTS to "treat?" Isn't that really the most fair way?

 

I totally agree with that. However, if someone offers to treat, I assume they want to treat (in most circumstances). I've never asked a guy to pick up a meal in my life, or anything else, and I don't think anyone should - sounds tacky!

 

I am guessing you guys live in the middle of no where or are really young.

 

Here is how a typical 2nd date might go for someone living in a city. Friday night dinner at restaurant that ends at 9 and the girl says lets go meet up with my friends at such and such club. So then you end up shelling out for:

 

Dinner for 2

Cab ride to the club

Cover charge for 2

Coat check in the club

Drinks all night for you and her

Cab ride back to your apartment.

 

That is a lot more than a simple date to the olive garden.

 

Anyone who's interested in taking me out boozing and clubbing on a first date is not my kinda guy. A typical first date for me was more like "Dinner for 2 and talk and have a stroll, maybe a glass of wine or some ice cream somewhere - though the ice cream never gets eaten and is usually pretense after dinner!"

 

Not a fan of the Olive Garden, but I know many cheaper, local restaurants that are amazing! I really do think people in general spend too much money on dating, but that's not really what the topic is about and applies to both genders.

[Woggle]

Most good food can be found at cheaper prices if you know where to look. My wife and I went to a cheese steak place that looks like a trailer on our first date.

[musemaj11]

Many pages back in this thread, I'd told about a date I'd gone on the weekend before, where the very successful gentleman had made reservations at a very expensive restaurant inside a casino complex. When we got our menus, I was horrified to find that the cheapest item on the menu (pan-seared Bass) was $28 - and the menu was ala carte! Our server told us that the 'market price' for lobster that evening was $45 and my date suggested I get the lobster and told me he was going to get it as well. I told him I preferred the bass but the truth was that I couldn't even stand the thought of ordering a $45 menu item - ala carte! After ordering the side dishes and his aged whiskey and my drink, I don't even want to know what the total was.

 

Two weeks later he made arrangements for us to stay at a resort and the room he'd booked was very plush with a jacuzzi and fireplace and he'd had room service put rose petals on the bed. He told me he was used to the 'finer' things in life and took great enjoyment in spoiling a beautiful lady.

 

The guys in this thread told me I was "dreaming the whole thing up" but I can assure them, I was not. I just didn't want to get into even more childish back and forth nonsense with the same bitter ones that refuse to listen to anyone unless you're agreeing with their opinions.

 

But I agree with you - clearly way too much was spent that evening on a 'date,' in my opinion. And it did make me uncomfortable, even though it was HE who made all the plans in advance and laughed off all my concerns about it being too expensive. And he was absolutely insulted when I asked him if I could treat him to breakfast the next morning. So that's why I maintain that not EVERY man follows - or WANTS to follow - the "Dutch" rule in dating. Trying to shove this view down everyone's throat - and belittling men who DON'T want to date that way - is just childish.

 

To each their own.

What's ironic Is that you repeatedly belittled men who don't like having to pay yourseLf. Maybe you should put your foot where your mouth is.

[runningfar]

If I was going on a date, I'd steer for something free or very cheap since I don't have a lot of extra money. If he insisted on something expensive, I would expect him to pay.

[musemaj11]

Oh for Christ sakes. This coming from one of the Bitter Brigrade whose so freakin' obsessed about who pays for dinner that he has crap about equality and not paying for dates in his signature line.

 

Methinks you're a little too preoccupied with the whole issue.

 

Jesus. Find something to cry about that actually matters.

At least I'm not a hypocrite like you are.

 

You frequently belittle men who don't like being expected to pay but on the other hand you feel upset when men who acceptt being expected to pay are being belittled because men who believe in paying benefit you and you don't want them to stop.

 

You are akin to men who degrade women who won't put out quickly and get upset at women who tell other women not to put out too early.

[samsungxoxo]

At least I'm not a hypocrite like you are.

 

You frequently belittle men who don't like being expected to pay but on the other hand you feel upset when men who acceptt being expected to pay are being belittled because men who believe in paying benefit you and you don't want them to stop.

 

You are akin to men who degrade women who won't put out quickly and get upset at women who tell other women not to put out too early.

I think she was trying to say that there has to be a middle ground.

 

While I'm not going to act like Hollywood movies displaying a woman putting out in a month or less, I'm also not the ''Wait till marriage'' extremist religious woman. I would be more into ''Relationship takes time and there has to be friendship first, then deeper bonds develop over time (if that bond is there, I think somewhere around 5 months or so might be an ok timeframe for me).

 

As far as the asking out, while I don't expect a millionaire paying over $30 over a dish for one person, I wouldn't want the overly, ridiculous cheap one who would think of taking me to McDonalds or using free coupons (unless it's accompanied by going to the movies at least). Once again, there would have to be a middle ground and if he's asking out, somewhere around $8-$15 isn't too much but average.

Edited July 28, 2012 by samsungxoxo

[musemaj11]

I think she was trying to say that there has to be a middle ground.

 

While I'm not going to act like Hollywood movies displaying a woman putting out in a month or less, I'm also not the ''Wait till marriage'' extremist religious woman. I would be more into ''Relationship takes time and there has to be friendship first, then deeper bonds develop over time (if that bond is there, I think somewhere around 5 months or so might be an ok timeframe for me).

 

As far as the asking out, while I don't expect a millionaire paying over $30 over a dish for one person, I wouldn't want the overly, ridiculous cheap one who would think of taking me to McDonalds or using free coupons (unless it's accompanied by going to the movies at least). Once again, there would have to be a middle ground and if he's asking out, somewhere around $8-$15 isn't too much but average.

Lol, a woman making a man wait for sex for half a year is like a man taking a woman to McDonalds.

[samsungxoxo]

Lol, a woman making a man wait for sex for half a year is like a man taking a woman to McDonalds.

5 months isn't half a year (6 months is). Secondly, that's just an estimate but who knows. It can be done in 4 months (depending much has developed over time).

Plus, what makes you think I won't reciprocate in other ways besides jumping into bed? There are other activities than just thinking of transforming him into my bf (offering to pay the next time, going to a science club, reading books, walking in the park, talking about other things besides relationship questions, etc.).

 

In reality, it's a process moving from friendship zone to relationship status (unlike fake Hollywood movies). Sometimes it happens when you're not even focus on finding a date or getting a bf/gf.

 

Now if he's getting desparate that I'm not seeing him as a bf after a month, then he can go find someone else. He wants a shiny fish or color sky blue huh? Well, it will take certain time as well as effort on his part as well as mine. No pain, no gain. BTW the one who taught me that phrase was my father.

 

The spanish translation would be ''Quien quiere celeste (azul) que le cueste''.

Edited July 28, 2012 by samsungxoxo

[musemaj11]

5 months isn't half a year (6 months is). Secondly, that's just an estimate but who knows. It can be done in 4 months (depending much has developed over time).

Plus, what makes you think I won't reciprocate in other ways besides jumping into bed? There are other activities than just thinking of transforming him into my bf (offering to pay the next time, going to a science club, reading books, walking in the park, talking about other things besides relationship questions, etc.).

 

In reality, it's a process moving from friendship zone to relationship status (unlike fake Hollywood movies). Sometimes it happens when you're not even focus on finding a date or getting a bf/gf.

 

Now if he's getting desparate that I'm not seeing him as a bf after a month, then he can go find someone else. He wants a shiny fish or color sky blue huh? Well, it will take certain time as well as effort on his part as well as mine. No pain, no gain. BTW the one who taught me that phrase was my father.

 

The spanish translation would be ''Quien quiere celeste (azul) que le cueste''.

okay as long as there is equal reciprocity then that's fair enough.

[dbzeng]

You still didn't really answer my question: Why should a woman need to turn a man's offer down? Why is he offering insincerely if he doesn't want to pick up that check? Why should he be indulged if he is and get the benefit of offering to pick up the whole tab (whatever that is to him) and not be taken up on it? Granted, if a guy continually offers out of habit, like Ruby's situation, I personally would be proactive and chip in sometimes. But I would expect a guy who really wanted to go dutch or just needed to, financially, to at the very least NOT OFFER to pay the whole bill. I'm not even saying he needs to say, "Let's go dutch." That can be reasonably assumed until an offer is made.

 

He is offering insincerely, because he doesn't want to seem cheap or poor. If a guy likes a girl, he doesn't want to rock the boat.

 

You haven't answered my question: Why have women stopped fighting for equality when it changed from being a benefit to being a detriment. That is hypocritical and selfish.

 

In answer to your question, women in generally should expect to go "dutch" and if a guy offers to pay, She should insist to pick up the check the next time to make things fair. Society has conditioned women to feel like the norm is the guy paying for everything. See how Ruby Slippers feels no remorse while her man pays and pays and pays. What does she bring to the relationship that is so special that he should pay for merely spending time with her?

 

Women have gotten used to taking advantage of men in present day society and if any guy says "No" I want equality then he is ridiculed. Look at these attitudes which aren't rare.

because a woman already pays with her mere presence, okay, you should be grateful enough that she showed up to hang out with you in the first place because that already is a really priceless sacrifice in itself

 

I feel the same way. It is like I give him a chance to be good enough to get what he wants or to make me like him. If he cannot be good enough for me, it is only his problem.

That is true that it is a real sacrifice in itself to date most of men.

 

Women think their presence is valuable enough that a guy should pay. You don't see anything wrong with that? It reflects poorly on our society that the majority of smart, intelligent, educated women think this way.

 

 

Anyone who's interested in taking me out boozing and clubbing on a first date is not my kinda guy. A typical first date for me was more like "Dinner for 2 and talk and have a stroll, maybe a glass of wine or some ice cream somewhere - though the ice cream never gets eaten and is usually pretense after dinner!"

While he might not be your type of guy, that is pretty standard in the city I live in. I think you probably live in a small or medium sized town? Edited July 29, 2012 by dbzeng

[Chicago_Guy]

He is offering insincerely, because he doesn't want to seem cheap or poor. If a guy likes a girl, he doesn't want to rock the boat.

 

You haven't answered my question: Why have women stopped fighting for equality when it changed from being a benefit to being a detriment. That is hypocritical and selfish.

In answer to your question, women in generally should expect to go "dutch" and if a guy offers to pay, She should insist to pick up the check the next time to make things fair. Society has conditioned women to feel like the norm is the guy paying for everything. See how Ruby Slippers feels no remorse while her man pays and pays and pays. What does she bring to the relationship that is so special that he should pay for merely spending time with her?

 

Women have gotten used to taking advantage of men in present day society and if any guy says "No" I want equality then he is ridiculed. Look at these attitudes which aren't rare.

 

 

Women think their presence is valuable enough that a guy should pay. You don't see anything wrong with that? It reflects poorly on our society that the majority of smart, intelligent, educated women think this way.

 

 

While he might not be your type of guy, that is pretty standard in the city I live in. I think you probably live in a small or medium sized town?

 

Women who are seriously dating and looking for a husband should insist on paying for their share on early dates. This is particularly true of women who want to take things slow to get to know the man. Otherwise, men with dating experience are likely to cast aside a woman who isn't offering to pay for anything and whom doesn't seem to want to get physical, as the men will likely assume that the women is a "dinner whore" or isn't interested.

 

I suspect that a lot of women don't realize how big of an issue this is for men.

[Ruby Slippers]

See how Ruby Slippers feels no remorse while her man pays and pays and pays. What does she bring to the relationship that is so special that he should pay for merely spending time with her?

No, I don't feel any "remorse". Why would anyone feel remorse about someone giving them something freely? I'm appreciative of anything nice he does for me, and I express that to him.

 

I expressed concern that he keeps insisting on paying, but he's clearly not concerned with it at all.

 

He's traditional and old-fashioned with dating, just like I am. When I thank him for treating me to dinner, he usually responds with something like, "You're welcome. Thank you for having dinner with me." So to him, there's something special enough that he doesn't think twice about paying for dinner. He takes pleasure in treating a woman to something nice, and that's an attractive quality.

[johan]

Curious, women have been telling us for years that being sexist wasn't at all attractive.

 

And you listened to them instead of thinking for yourself?

[johan]

Not at all, just pointing it out for those men who still think what women say means anything*

 

*Exception being when she says no to sexual advances, don't want to take any chances there.

 

You thought they needed your help thinking for themselves?

[johan]

You'd be surprised. You have to remember that a large amount of young men are raised by single mothers and thus possibly brainwashed into thinking what women say means something.

 

So I guess that sort of makes you the father they never had. Or maybe the one who delivers the truth they are too stupid to come up with on their own.

[Ruby Slippers]

The amount of beaten dogs I see walking around on a daily basis makes me sick, their minds warped by decades of listening to their single mother, watching dr. Phil, growing up in a feminized school system where all natural male behavior is to be stamped out.

The guy I'm dating comes from a loving family with a strong mom and a dad, has an excellent career, gets more done in a day than some people get done in a week, and is about the furthest from beaten down a man can get.

 

I invited him to visit the botanic garden with me and 2 friends for a double date this weekend, and he offered to drive us all there (it's kinda far). I thanked him for offering to drive, and he said he would be happy to do it and is excited about the excursion.

 

He likes to take charge and facilitate others having a good time. He doesn't seem to think twice about the time, gas, or money he invests to make this happen - because he enjoys it and takes pleasure in facilitating happiness and fun for other people. Doing so is fun for him and makes him happy.

 

So while you're whining on LS about how beaten down men are, this guy will be having a blast with me and my friends this weekend.

[musemaj11]

Insisting on spending money is what physically lacking men do. Nothing wrong w that tho. If not only u r ugly but also won't spend any money then u r basically offering nothing to the woman.

 

Personally however I would rather spend my money on making myself looking physically attractive to women than trying to attract them by spending the money on driving them and their friends around and paying for their meals.

[Ruby Slippers]

Personally however I would rather spend my money on making myself looking physically attractive to women than trying to attract them by spending the money on driving them and their friends around and paying for their meals.

Women flirt with this guy all the time. He looks damn good. And he likes to treat me to dinner and do nice things for me and my friends. People like him and think he's a great guy, so it all comes back around to him, I'm sure.

[Ruby Slippers]

edited to add...

 

I just dropped $600 on sexy lingerie... which I will be wearing only for him. He specifically requested that I wear more sexy lingerie, and I'm happily answering his request. I even asked him what colors and styles he likes.