Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[GirlontheLam]

? You clearly expect to be compensated for your time by virtue of him being male.

 

Im just curious.

 

If you ask me for coffee you should pay! That's it. I am not going to a dinner first date if we are strangers either. Too much room for awkwardness.

 

It isn't being "compensated" it is showing interest in "taking care" of me. Although that phrase is way too deep for the situation.

 

I'll happily pay on the next one or go dutch. It is a gesture. Every time I have gone on a date and the guy didn't pay, it turned out to be an awful date. There seems to be a pattern.

 

So I say propose a cheep date and pay. $5 is sufficient. Most people are willing to buy a stranger a drink, so that is a perfect benchmark.

[Awesome Username]

Whoever does the asking should do the paying. Anything else is out of the goodness of whatever party's heart and should never be expected. My guy pays a lot, but I always make sure to let him know I appreciate it and am willing to chip in sometimes. I even force him to let me buy stuff just so he knows I appreciate his generosity.

 

 

That being said, there is something on an instinctual level that is attractive to me when a man pays for a group of people. This is a sign of a real alpha male. even if we're just at Denny's or Taco Bell and there's a few people with us, being generous without an ulterior motive is very attractive. People who tip well without bringing attention to it are also attractive and I try to do that too.

 

I was with a man for two and a half years once who was insanely cheap and would never pitch in on anything. Otherwise he was a really good guy - He was brilliant, talented and attractive but after a while the lack of generosity literally made me change my mind. I think he was just really young. When he told me I was adding money to the water bill by doing his dishes for too long I finally gave in, and left. LOL!

[The Way I Am]

I only insist on paying if I have no interest in the guy. If I'm interested, I'll offer to split, usually by putting in my credit card at the same time he does. If he says he wants to pay, I'll make it up by paying for the next date or something.

 

I don't get into any awkward back and forth where he has to "insist".

 

And Im glad to next a girl who thinks its my job to pay for strangers =) Everyone wins. Its just off putting to me that when two adult strangers have independent incoming, one seems to have an entitled attitude.

 

I have no idea how you got that I think it's your job to pay for strangers out of what I said other than the fact that you're generally paranoid about other people's motives or lack reading comprehension. I offer to split the bill because I have the full intent to do so. If a guy says he'd rather pay, I'm happy to let him if he would like to do so. If however, he isn't happy to do it, I expect him to say so. If he doesn't, and he "nexts" me, because I didn't get into a back and forth about it, then you're right, it's not a good match.

 

There's no point in me dating someone who can't say what he means and contrives tests to find out my true intentions. I'm up front and real, and I expect a man to be as well.

[kaylan]

Whoever does the asking should do the paying. Anything else is out of the goodness of whatever party's heart and should never be expected. My guy pays a lot, but I always make sure to let him know I appreciate it and am willing to chip in sometimes. I even force him to let me buy stuff just so he knows I appreciate his generosity.

 

 

That being said, there is something on an instinctual level that is attractive to me when a man pays for a group of people. This is a sign of a real alpha male. even if we're just at Denny's or Taco Bell and there's a few people with us, being generous without an ulterior motive is very attractive. People who tip well without bringing attention to it are also attractive and I try to do that too.

 

I was with a man for two and a half years once who was insanely cheap and would never pitch in on anything. Otherwise he was a really good guy - He was brilliant, talented and attractive but after a while the lack of generosity literally made me change my mind. I think he was just really young. When he told me I was adding money to the water bill by doing his dishes for too long I finally gave in, and left. LOL!

Trust me it isnt instinctual. Society taught you to enjoy men paying for you.

I have no idea how you got that I think it's your job to pay for strangers out of what I said other than the fact that you're generally paranoid about other people's motives or lack reading comprehension. I offer to split the bill because I have the full intent to do so. If a guy says he'd rather pay, I'm happy to let him if he would like to do so. If however, he isn't happy to do it, I expect him to say so. If he doesn't, and he "nexts" me, because I didn't get into a back and forth about it, then you're right, it's not a good match.

 

There's no point in me dating someone who can't say what he means and contrives tests to find out my true intentions. I'm up front and real, and I expect a man to be as well.

You missed my whole point. I dont want a back and forth at all. I like women who enjoy going dutch on a first meet where both people say what they mean the first time. No fake purse reaches, and no offering to pay just because you dont want to see the guy again. A girl should want to pay since the guys a stranger and shes got an equal part in dating.

[denise_xo]

Trust me it isnt instinctual. Society taught you to enjoy men paying for you.

 

Agreed. And the whole 'who asks should pay' argument doesn't make sense as long as men are culturally expected to initiate, and does ninety-something per cent of the initiation.

[kaylan]

A lot of guys in this day and age want to feel valued and chased a bit too. Dunno why some women are so against doing that. And a guy isnt less of a man for being able to expect that. Usually a guy is more of a man if hes actually in the position where women are willing to chase him and show him what they got to offer. Sometimes it really feels like women arent romantic at all, and romance is all about what dudes do for her. Be it dating, sex, expression of feeling, etc.

 

Many of us arent from Pierre's generation where men are happy to put women on a pedestal above men and pitch woo. Guys like myself feel like a prize themselves. Im 25 btw. Maybe people should give ages when they respond, because in my experience, younger women want autonomy and not feel like a guy is obligated to buy her when she has her own means of decent income. Then again, I guess its pointless to discuss this.

 

There are plenty of women in NYC who are generous and dont have expectations when it comes to the "who pays" thing. And you can generally tell somewhat before a date what kinda girl youve got...so all in all no biggie. At the end of the day I want a real best friend who met me half way. Not some throwback chick I had to chase most of the way.

Edited August 20, 2012 by kaylan

[Blueflames]

Ah yes, the tired old the one who asks should pay.

 

People would respect you far more if you just came out and said listen, im a woman and my time is worth cash money, either pay up or get out.

 

The whole it's about "taking care of me" not about "being compensated" is utter nonsense in the context of a first date. Why would someone want to take care of, of all things, a stranger? Save that rhetoric for when a cop stops you.

[The Way I Am]

Trust me it isnt instinctual. Society taught you to enjoy men paying for you.

You missed my whole point. I dont want a back and forth at all. I like women who enjoy going dutch on a first meet where both people say what they mean the first time. No fake purse reaches, and no offering to pay just because you dont want to see the guy again. A girl should want to pay since the guys a stranger and shes got an equal part in dating.

 

I think you misread my statement that I only insist on paying if I'm not interested to mean I only offer to pay if I'm not interested. What I mean is that I only get forceful and get into the back and forth (insist) if I know I'm not interested. If I am interested, then I know there's a chance I'll be making it up to the guy on a future date, and I won't have any qualms about him paying this time. When I'm not interested, I think it's polite to split it fully, since there's no way I'll see him again to treat him in the future.

 

Everything you've said until now contradicts your first sentence. The "fake purse reaches" contradicts your claim not to want a "back and forth" based on what you said earlier. You said you next a girl who doesn't offer a second time to pay after you decline her offer, because that's how you supposedly know she meant it.

 

If you want a woman who is willing to pay and doesn't do a "fake purse reach", why do you decline her offer the first time and then next her if she takes you at your word that you'll pay? If you want to see if she's genuine, why not just either accept her offer to pay or assume the purse reach is genuine and figure out by her behavior on the next date if it is?

[Woggle]

I don't mind paying on dates though I don't spend big bucks until I got in a relationship with a woman. That being said you can't blame men for being a bit sour on this after being lectured over and over on how wrong gender roles are but only in certain cases. There seems to be a small but very vocal number of women who only want to keep the gender roles that benefit them. If I have to pay all the time on dates isn't it only fair that a woman maybe cook a man a nice meal once in a while. Say that though and a man catches hell.

 

This is where the resentment comes from. Also most men were not alive during those days either yet there is again a small but very vocal group of women who want all men to pay for the sins of the men from that era.

[denise_xo]

Whether you all like or not, men are always going to be the persuers and the protectors (at least, the real men are). The wimpy ones who keep crying about equality usually tend to be the SAME ones who also want a woman to do 90% of the housework, child rearing AND working a full time job once they're in a committed relationship. You think we all don't see this crap over and over and over every single day? Funny how the 'equalilty' argument goes right out the window once you all park your dead asses on the couch to watch BayWatch reruns every night or play with your X-Boxes while your wives or girlfriends bust their asses all night long after working all day.

 

There are lots of shy men that don't feel comfortable pursuing, and there are lots of women who like to pursue. I think there should be space for both. Feminism, to me, was a lot about getting rid of straight jackets. The 'men have to be real men' is one of them.

 

Yes, there are tons of men who don't take their share of the house work, but then, at this point it's really a question of why the hell do women put up with that? That's a choice that we no longer have to take. I wouldn't touch a man who thinks it's my job to clean because I have a vagina. In any case, I just don't see any of that kind of discrimination to be a good reason to justify another cultural bias which financially disadvantages men and, in contemporary society, makes very little sense: that men are expected to pay for complete strangers just because they're interested in getting to know them.

[William]

Inserting an apology here for any screwed up posts/quotes from my botched thread merge which ended up in the online dating thread by mistake!

 

Also, a reminder to remain on-topic regarding who pays. Dissertations on equal rights are enlightening and deserve a thread of their own. As always, relevance to who pays is welcomed.

[kaylan]

I think you misread my statement that I only insist on paying if I'm not interested to mean I only offer to pay if I'm not interested. What I mean is that I only get forceful and get into the back and forth (insist) if I know I'm not interested. If I am interested, then I know there's a chance I'll be making it up to the guy on a future date, and I won't have any qualms about him paying this time. When I'm not interested, I think it's polite to split it fully, since there's no way I'll see him again to treat him in the future.

Just because youre interested, doesnt mean he will be interested in a second date. There are not always guaranteed second dates, which is why I think strangers should pay for themselves in the beginning.

 

Everything you've said until now contradicts your first sentence. The "fake purse reaches" contradicts your claim not to want a "back and forth" based on what you said earlier. You said you next a girl who doesn't offer a second time to pay after you decline her offer, because that's how you supposedly know she meant it.

There is no contradiction.

 

I said I do NOT want a fake purse reach. Which means I dont want any fake back and forth either. Please quote where I ever said I want a back and forth. I said I next fake purse reaches. If I insist on paying for a girl, Im insisting on paying. When I talking of any back and forth, I was responding to another girl in this thread and telling her how sometimes guys decline the first offer to be modest. I said it depends on the guy.

 

Read thoroughly next time.

If you want a woman who is willing to pay and doesn't do a "fake purse reach", why do you decline her offer the first time and then next her if she takes you at your word that you'll pay? If you want to see if she's genuine, why not just either accept her offer to pay or assume the purse reach is genuine and figure out by her behavior on the next date if it is?

Also, the reason some guys have to decline the first offer, is because some women are testing him to see if he jumps at her offer to go dutch.

 

Maybe if more women were finally willing to behave like independent adults, none of this would be an issue. Thank god for my generation though. I couldnt imagine dating in the past.

Edited August 20, 2012 by kaylan

[Blueflames]

No disrespect intended, but a good portion of you guys constantly using the "Equal Rights" argument weren't even freakin' BORN when it happened and it's very likely none of you have actually invested the time in LEARNING about it. The women you're constantly berating here on LS probably weren't even born yet either, but some of you act as though THEY were the ones out there burning their bras and protesting with picket signs. Jesus!

 

If anyone actually cares to do a LITTLE homework on what the movement was about, it was about being able to CHOOSE to have a career versus being a housewife/brood mare and not feeling fulfilled or productive. The women who WERE doing the same jobs as men wanted to get paid the same wage for doing the same work. You all want to act as though every single woman on EARTH does the same exact job a man does and gets paid the same exact wage for it. You're wrong on BOTH counts - women STILL get paid less for doing the same jobs men do AND a lot of women still aren't performing what are considered historically men's jobs anyway. So stop trying to act as though every single woman on earth is making the same amout YOU are. There's a very good chance they're not.

 

Women were also fighting for the right to make CHOICES about birth control, choices about their own sexual health, and choices about their own bodies, rather than being TOLD what they were allowed to do.

 

Women were fighting for the right NOT to be owned like CHATTEL.

 

How in the hell this automatically equates to the MATING DANCE is beyond me. Whether you all like or not, men are always going to be the persuers and the protectors (at least, the real men are). The wimpy ones who keep crying about equality usually tend to be the SAME ones who also want a woman to do 90% of the housework, child rearing AND working a full time job once they're in a committed relationship. You think we all don't see this crap over and over and over every single day? Funny how the 'equalilty' argument goes right out the window once you all park your dead asses on the couch to watch BayWatch reruns every night or play with your X-Boxes while your wives or girlfriends bust their asses all night long after working all day.

 

And yes, there sure ARE militant feminists (a/k/a Feminazi's) out there, pounding their hairy chests and giving you all hell for having the nerve to open the door for them. They DON'T SPEAK FOR ALL WOMEN and I personally think they're an embarrassment, but that doesn't mean you get to paint every single woman with the SAME damned brush for the actions of some!

 

And lastly, these ludicrous, imbecilic, moronic remarks about women being "escorts" because they still prefer to have a man take them out without having to freakin' get out their calculators when the bill comes because GOD FORBID some man has to shell out friggen $3.50 for a lousy cup of coffee just makes you all look pitiful. And if you all could GET an escort for $3.50, be my guest!

 

Thank God I don't have to deal with this petty bullsh*t out in the real world. But then again, I only date men of Pierre's calibre anyway.

 

More men would act like a 50's man if, in return, they got a 50's woman.

[kaylan]

Also, Just A Poster is very wrong. The men who have throwback ideals regarding dates are generally the ones who expect women to do all the housework, while holding down a job. Or they just expect her to stay home.

 

I, on the other hand, expect to do half the house work, or more if my babes workload was rough during the week. Or if its her birthday week I will do all of it. Im into professional women, so no way in hell would I expect her to do most of the chores...especially when I was raised by a great mom whom I didnt let do most of the housework.

 

I dont have any male friends my age who expect women to do most of the house work. None.

[denise_xo]

I, on the other hand, expect to do half the house work, or more if my babes workload was rough during the week. Or if its her birthday week I will do all of it. Im into professional women, so no way in hell would I expect her to do most of the chores.

 

 

Hey, do you have a brother who's a couple of decades older than you?

[kaylan]

 

Hey, do you have a brother who's a couple of decades older than you?

Haha, I have a brother, but hes only a few years older than me.

[The Way I Am]

If you read with comprehension youd see there is no contradiction.

 

I said I do NOT want a fake purse reach. Which means I dont want any fake back and forth either. Please quote where I ever said I want a back and forth. I said I next fake purse reaches.

 

I say push a "no I can pay for myself" twice at most. Sometimes a guy may initially say "I got it" because hes testing to see how sincere your offer was.

 

Your advice to a woman was to say that she can pay herself "twice at most". What way am I supposed to interpret that other than you think it's fine for a guy to test how sincere a woman is by seeing if she'll return with a second offer to pay, ie back and forth? So you're saying that you don't think that's okay? If so, then why do you disagree so much with my stance that a woman who wants a guy who says what they mean shouldn't get into the back and forth?

 

Also, the reason some guys have to decline the first offer, is because some women are testing him to see if he jumps at her offer to go dutch.

And I think that if they're that worried about the woman's motives, they should just be real and accept the woman's offer.

[The Way I Am]

Also, the reason some guys have to decline the first offer, is because some women are testing him to see if he jumps at her offer to go dutch.

 

So wouldn't the guy rather weed out the women who are only offering in order to test him?

[kaylan]

Your advice to a woman was to say that she can pay herself "twice at most". What way am I supposed to interpret that other than you think it's fine for a guy to test how sincere a woman is by seeing if she'll return with a second offer to pay, ie back and forth? So you're saying that you don't think that's okay? If so, then why do you disagree so much with my stance that a woman who wants a guy who says what they mean shouldn't get into the back and forth?

The girl asked whether or not she should offer to pay because some guys reject her offer (even though in their heads, they may actually want to accept it.) Guys decline the offer the first time because society has made them to think that if they accept, the girl wont date him again...or that shes only offering if she doesnt like him. Myself and my friends have found those two things to not always be true.

So to remedy this, a guy can simply decline her offer the first time, out of modesty. Then if she insists, he can accept her offer. In this case he didnt jump the gun to accept her offer, he was being modest and polite, and also her insistence shows him her offer was legit and she wanted to pay for herself. Then they can just take it from there. No biggie. It doesnt need that much overthinking at all.

 

Sometimes I have gone out with friends, and one of us tries to treat the other, and sometimes we want to be modest and not mooch, so we will offer to chip in and mean it unless the other party insists on covering us. There is no back and forth at all. Its simply polite to offer to pay your own way, and to be prepared to do so. With all of it being sincere.

 

And I think that if they're that worried about the woman's motives, they should just be real and accept the woman's offer.

Everyone is worried about everyones motives. Some women overly worry about a guys interest and motives, which is why they expect him to pay.

So wouldn't the guy rather weed out the women who are only offering in order to test him?

You find that out after the date anyways. Again, its polite to offer to chip in. Independent adults should always be willing to cover themselves in any situation.

Edited August 20, 2012 by kaylan

[The Way I Am]

The girl asked whether or not she should offer to pay because some guys reject her offer (even though in their heads, they may actually want to accept it.) Guys decline the offer the first time because society has made them to think that if they accept, the girl wont date him again...or that shes only offering if she doesnt like him. Myself and my friends have found those two things to not always be true.

So to remedy this, a guy can simply decline her offer the first time, out of modesty. Then if she insists, he can accept her offer. In this case he didnt jump the gun to accept her offer, he was being modest and polite, and also her insistence shows him her offer was legit and she wanted to pay for herself. Then they can just take it from there. No biggie. It doesnt need that much overthinking at all.

 

I've got no problem with that. I suspect most guys, don't mind paying and aren't overly preoccupied with wondering if a girl's offer to pay is genuine to the point of feeling like they need to test her on it.

 

I have no idea who said it, and I can't find it now, so either I've skipped it or it got removed when the thread was moderated, but one guy said that when a girl offers to pay, he says he'll cover it. But if she doesn't offer a second time to show the first was genuine, he knows the offer wasn't real, and he nexts her. That's pretty stupid IMO.

 

For guys like that poster who are so preoccupied with it to the point of feeling like they need to test the woman, they should just take the woman up on the offer. That's the best test. If she judges him badly for it, then the two wouldn't work well together anyway, because she's judging him for who he really is.

 

Edit: I get the impression now that you don't endorse that type of practice. If so, I did misinterpret you statements before as support of that poster.

 

Again, its polite to offer to chip in. Independent adults should always be willing to cover themselves in any situation.

Agreed. I've never said anything contrary to that. Edited August 21, 2012 by The Way I Am

[Michal2012]

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[Liza12111]

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[Jamesblame]

I pay if I ask the woman out. I offer to pay if the woman asks me out.

 

I've gotten in trouble though. Often times, female friends and coworkers have thought I was sending signals when I chose to pick up the tab. In truth, I'm fairly uncomfortable with people paying for me.

 

This is not a gender thing though. I once went 8 or 10 rounds at a bar with a male friend because we got uncomfortable when one of us bought the other a round, and felt that we needed to do the same.

 

Paying comes down to this:

 

Tradition

Not wanting to appear cheap

Not wanting the other person to have power over you.

 

Right or wrong it's what I've done.

 

However, when dating I do keep a general running tab. If my date never offers to pay then I drop her pretty quickly.

[bac]

A lot of guys in this day and age want to feel valued and chased a bit too. Dunno why some women are so against doing that.

 

Look at your avatar. A cat cannot become a crocodile even somebody told it that it can become anyone. A woman cannot become a man.

 

Guys like myself feel like a prize themselves.

 

The books on getting laid and gaining great confidence advise every man to feel as a prize. That is a good thing in general. But, IRL, I cannot figure out what kind of prize the statement implies.

 

She has her own means of decent income.

There are plenty of women in NYC who are generous and dont have expectations when it comes to the "who pays" thing. /QUOTE]

 

It is a lose-lose situation for a woman. Any decent income is not enough to pay for dating if you are a woman.

A cat cannot become a croc. There is a double standard in dating. A woman has to be beautiful. A man has no idea how much money it takes to get ready for a date if you want to be hot. You have to spend a lot of money on your hair, nails, lips, face, makeup, outfits, skin, plastic surgeries, different procedures and many many other things. And, looking hot on a date is a must. If she is not attractive, a man will reject her. For every date a girl needs a new outfit which makes her sexy and desirable.

[musemaj11]

So we can expect a woman to pay up if she does not appear on a date up to our physical expectation?