Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[bac]

You make it seem like all women are hookers and all men are johns, and no way men should get free sex. Wow. I feel sorry for you with an attitude like that, or rather feel sorry for myself, because I seem to be the only one who wants women to enjoy sex too and contribute equally to society. If wanting people to be people, not simplistic sexual stereotypes makes me a bad guy, then so be it. I guess only men were told it's better to give than to receive.

 

Thank you for your kind intentions towards women. It is so kind of you that you want us to enjoy sex only if we contribute to society/men paying for dates equally.

I wish I could enjoy sex with a man for free. But, I guess there are some men who are available for sex only if I pay for dates. I hope they are better at sex than the other men who let women have sex with them for free.

[Drseussgrrl]

You make it seem like all women are hookers and all men are johns, and no way men should get free sex. Wow. I feel sorry for you with an attitude like that, or rather feel sorry for myself, because I seem to be the only one who wants women to enjoy sex too and contribute equally to society. If wanting people to be people, not simplistic sexual stereotypes makes me a bad guy, then so be it. I guess only men were told it's better to give than to receive.

 

Dafuq did I just read?

 

For the record, I DO contribute equally to society. You know, having an education, a good job and not having kids on the dole.

 

But I also enjoy being treated to a nice steak dinner by a man I like. Shoot me.

[Els]

Threads like this never cease to amuse me... and they just never cease, judging from the number of pages this one has. There's a fairly simple solution of just being with someone who has a compatible mindset. Don't want to pay, want to have sex on the first date, then find a woman who's okay with that, if you can. If you can't, start thinking about how you can. Instead of talking bullschytt about contribution to society as if it were somehow relevant.

 

LOL...after being with my boyfriend for 4 months, he booked US a cruise and we're going in April. And yes, he paid for the entire thing himself.

 

Goodness, I guess that makes me a 'gold digger' too. What a joke.

 

I find it hysterical that they use the term "gold digger" for a woman they spend a whole whopping $20 or $25 on.

 

But then, it's always been the ones with the LEAST amount of gold to dig that make that claim, isn't it?

 

This dude was complaining because he did it for a woman he'd only had a few dates with, and as soon as she got it she dumped him. Apparently that meant that all women were evil and the best way to handle this was to go on a rant on LS about women, instead of learning to restrict his high-spending activities to women he was actually in a relationship with and whom he trusted.

 

I also find the phenomenon you mention funny. There was an old poster - musemaj1, I think, who was in college and living with his parents but seemed to have some sort of paranoia about gold-digging women, judging from the number of threads he made about it. Ahhh.. good times...

[123321]

Agreed. Money is just paper. It's actually just a representative of gold in the treasury, but that's another story.

 

1931 called, they want you to get with the 21st century.

[kimberlydoll]

You make it seem like all women are hookers and all men are johns, and no way men should get free sex. Wow. I feel sorry for you with an attitude like that, or rather feel sorry for myself, because I seem to be the only one who wants women to enjoy sex too and contribute equally to society. If wanting people to be people, not simplistic sexual stereotypes makes me a bad guy, then so be it. I guess only men were told it's better to give than to receive.

 

Using extremes for your response...typical based on your other posts. No, women enjoy sex the difference is we usually want more and men dont, yet they lie and manipulate and use women for sex. Im not talking hookers, im talking normal nice everyday gals who have men lead them on for sex. It happens all the time many women have the same attitude as me. I never said I didnt think women should contribute equally, you just conveniently leave out the fact that many men want women JUST for sex and then lie about it

 

Simplistic stereotypes exist for a reason...no not every single guy does this but I can assure you that MANY do. If MANY men DID NOT do this, less women would be wary about having sex in the first place. Dont hate on women for figuring out men arent always honest. It makes us HUMAN not an AWFUL person

[scratch]

3rd date this weekend. I like him, have no idea if it'll go anywhere, but want to keep dating him. He hasn't let me pay for a single thing, though I've offered and even tried to grab the bill at one point. Every time, he said I could "get it next time". But he didn't seem to like the idea of me paying. His attitude came across as: Why is she trying to pay?

 

He's 5 years older than me and quite old-school with his approach to dating - total gentleman, which I love.

 

Do I insist upon paying next time?

 

You should get an answer to this.

 

A guy would rather pay and feel attractive and appreciated than split and feel uneasy about where he stands with you. Do you have other ways to make him feel attractive and appreciated? I should hope so.

 

It's not about sex, although I admit that sex is great proof that a woman likes a man. It's not even doing anything proactive for him; that should wait for after you are settled into a routine, at which point it's great.

 

To show a man you're enjoying his old school chivalry, reciprocate with old school femininity - ask him how he'd like you to dress when you see him. Ask for permission to call him, or if he'd rather you wait for him to call. You do that, and he'll be delighted to pay.

 

My personal frustration comes with women who want the chivalry, but find the corresponding femininity anachronistic. I feel like the woman should be able to choose if she wants to be separate but equal, or purely equal (split every aspect of dating 50/50). However, you can't choose separate but unequal, where a man does the asking and the paying, but the woman steers regarding times and activities that suit her.

 

I'm interested in some feedback here:

 

1. Do male posters agree with me that they are happy to pay as long as they feel appreciated?

 

2. Do women object to or agree with my examples of femininity? Are they "fair?"

 

3. Do people of both genders prefer "separate but equal" or "purely equal?"

[Drseussgrrl]

You should get an answer to this.

 

A guy would rather pay and feel attractive and appreciated than split and feel uneasy about where he stands with you. Do you have other ways to make him feel attractive and appreciated? I should hope so.

 

It's not about sex, although I admit that sex is great proof that a woman likes a man. It's not even doing anything proactive for him; that should wait for after you are settled into a routine, at which point it's great.

 

To show a man you're enjoying his old school chivalry, reciprocate with old school femininity - ask him how he'd like you to dress when you see him. Ask for permission to call him, or if he'd rather you wait for him to call. You do that, and he'll be delighted to pay.

 

My personal frustration comes with women who want the chivalry, but find the corresponding femininity anachronistic. I feel like the woman should be able to choose if she wants to be separate but equal, or purely equal (split every aspect of dating 50/50). However, you can't choose separate but unequal, where a man does the asking and the paying, but the woman steers regarding times and activities that suit her.

 

I'm interested in some feedback here:

 

1. Do male posters agree with me that they are happy to pay as long as they feel appreciated?

 

2. Do women object to or agree with my examples of femininity? Are they "fair?"

 

3. Do people of both genders prefer "separate but equal" or "purely equal?"

 

I think it's quite feminine to dress in a way that's appealing to a man. Dresses, effort in your hair and makeup, etc.

 

I would not, however, ASK him how he wants me to dress. Not someone I'm just dating, anyway.

 

I'm also always completely appreciative of men who treat me on dates. Lots of thank-you's and "That was lovely". Big smiles, funny conversations, I tell him he looks handsome. Also, I always take a man's arm. They seem to love this. Gives off a feminine vibe when a man feels you're trusting him.

[Ruby Slippers]

A guy would rather pay and feel attractive and appreciated than split and feel uneasy about where he stands with you. Do you have other ways to make him feel attractive and appreciated?

I express appreciation for all the thoughtful things he does. Not only does he insist on paying - he helps me put on my coat, opens the door for me, always wants to treat me to something extra. He's a true gentleman. I thank him generously not only when he pays, but also when he does thoughtful little things.

 

My personal frustration comes with women who want the chivalry, but find the corresponding femininity anachronistic.

I don't find corresponding feminine behavior to be a problem. In fact, I enjoy it. I haven't asked him what he'd like me to wear, but I have considered his preferences. I know that, like most men, he appreciates the feminine look. I've worn a skirt or dress on every date, hair, makeup, touch of jewelry. He told me he loves a woman in heels. We're the same height, but he isn't bothered by me being taller in heels - so I wore them on Valentine's Day, and he loved it.

 

He's pretty much the best at anything he does, and I acknowledge his intelligence and talents. I like that he clearly enjoys the recognition, but doesn't seem arrogant about himself. He's definitely a guy I can respect and "look up to", and it's clear he wants it to be that way, as do I.

 

Do women object to or agree with my examples of femininity? Are they "fair?"

I think it would be a bit extreme to ask him what he wants me to wear. The kind of men I like to date don't want a subservient woman, and agree that they'd be bored with that. They want a woman who thinks for herself and can make her own decisions, while aiming to please. I do pay attention to what he likes, and respond without any discussion of it. Then he notices and expresses appreciation.

 

Do people of both genders prefer "separate but equal" or "purely equal?"

I align with different but equal. I'm not a man and don't want to be, and the guys I date don't want to be women, or want me to be a man.

 

I'm happy to do any of the traditional feminine things - cooking, baking, cleaning, nurturing, soothing, encouraging, sparkling on his arm when he needs me to, sewing a button on his shirt, whatever. The men I like appreciate that I enjoy doing all that, but I can also run and lead my business with the best of them.

 

This guy and I have already discussed the potential future, in a general way. His feeling is that he makes plenty of money with his businesses and investments, so his wife won't have to worry about making money unless she wants to.

 

The kind of guys I date seem to be looking for a woman who can take care of herself and doesn't need his income, but would happily get off the career track to start raising a family when the time comes. That makes sense to me.

[Woggle]

I have no issue doing the traditional stuff if she will do her part as well. I think the issue with some men is that after years of being lectured on how sexist traditional gender roles are now some women want to bring back the ones that they would benefit from. It's more the hypocrisy than anything else. Some women know how to naturally make a man want to be chivalrous and I think it would be good to learn that instead of demanding we do it.

[Ruby Slippers]

I have no issue doing the traditional stuff if she will do her part as well. I think the issue with some men is that after years of being lectured on how sexist traditional gender roles are now some women want to bring back the ones that they would benefit from. It's more the hypocrisy than anything else. Some women know how to naturally make a man want to be chivalrous and I think it would be good to learn that instead of demanding we do it.

I think there's been a lot of devious social engineering around the idea of feminism that most women had no part in pushing forward. But that's a much larger discussion. I think people just need to think for themselves.

 

I want to do the right thing, whatever that is. The guy I'm dating makes good money and clearly enjoys taking me out and treating me to a good time. He seems to like me a lot already, and while I like him, too, I'm just getting to know him right now. I don't think he's going to care about the money however it works out - but it's important to me to be fair.

 

But I think I'm doing fine. On Valentine's Day, all I wanted was to enjoy a nice meal with him. I was looking at the $10-15 pasta dishes and would have been totally happy with that. He's the one who wanted to spring for the nice bottle of wine, special 3-course V Day meal, dessert, and so on. He wants to make me happy and impress me, I get it. I suppose I should just enjoy that and not worry about the money. Getting a free dinner is not my agenda.

[crude]

Let's just reverse the genders. If a man ever said he expected the woman to pay for everything because he enjoys being courted, there'd be no 2nd date if she didn't pay, a lady always pays for a gentlemen to show she's serious, a woman who doesn't pay is a cheap loser, there wouldn't be enough negative words in the English language to throw at him. Because it's women, it seems to be ok. Women don't even see the double standard. What happens when a man spends let's say $1200 on a woman and then he needs a new tv but can't afford it. How many women would have the class to buy him one for $1200 as a "treat" and even the score? Women like being taken out, they like being lavished with gifts, they like being able to quit work for the rest of their lives if they feel like it. Too bad men don't have the same choices in life. Men have to be the grownups.

[sillyanswer]

I suppose I should just enjoy that and not worry about the money.

 

Yup. By all means offer to pay, or even just go ahead and pay (you're allowed to talk to the waiter yourself!), if you want. But not worrying about it is definitely the right thing to do. The whole "who pays" thing is one of the least important things about dating - and I'm continually amazed at the longevity of this thread (and the repetitious nature of the threads that get merged into it).

[pbjbear]

I have no issue doing the traditional stuff if she will do her part as well. I think the issue with some men is that after years of being lectured on how sexist traditional gender roles are now some women want to bring back the ones that they would benefit from. It's more the hypocrisy than anything else. Some women know how to naturally make a man want to be chivalrous and I think it would be good to learn that instead of demanding we do it.

 

which ones are they trying to bring back that benefit them?

[Woggle]

which ones are they trying to bring back that benefit them?

 

The ones discussed in this thread. I agree with what Ruby Slippers said. Let me start off by saying I fully support what the mainstream feminist movement was about but the more extreme factions simply wanted to be against men all together and I think that many men these days unfairly try to make all women pay for it. Ask any guy who was around during the 70s era and they will tell you about getting a nasty reaction simply for holding a door. This is the kind of mentality that a lot of men picked up on so now when women started asking happened to the gentlemen it makes us scratch our head.

[123321]

I have no issue doing the traditional stuff if she will do her part as well. I think the issue with some men is that after years of being lectured on how sexist traditional gender roles are now some women want to bring back the ones that they would benefit from. It's more the hypocrisy than anything else. Some women know how to naturally make a man want to be chivalrous and I think it would be good to learn that instead of demanding we do it.

 

I enjoy living up to my gender role if she lives up to hers, but American women willing to do so are few.

[Drseussgrrl]

Let's just reverse the genders. If a man ever said he expected the woman to pay for everything because he enjoys being courted, there'd be no 2nd date if she didn't pay, a lady always pays for a gentlemen to show she's serious, a woman who doesn't pay is a cheap loser, there wouldn't be enough negative words in the English language to throw at him. Because it's women, it seems to be ok. Women don't even see the double standard. What happens when a man spends let's say $1200 on a woman and then he needs a new tv but can't afford it. How many women would have the class to buy him one for $1200 as a "treat" and even the score? Women like being taken out, they like being lavished with gifts, they like being able to quit work for the rest of their lives if they feel like it. Too bad men don't have the same choices in life. Men have to be the grownups.

 

When you grow a vagina and have to birth babies, then we'll talk about what's "fair". Deal?

 

Edited to add - luckily for you, most women do NOT have the luxury of just quitting work for the rest of our lives. We're right there in workforce alongside you, because most homes require dual income nowadays to make ends meet.

 

Please join the real world and stop projecting your failures with women and dating onto women by claiming we're all gold-digging, entitled princesses who just want your wallet.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Drseussgrrl

[clia]

Let's just reverse the genders. If a man ever said he expected the woman to pay for everything because he enjoys being courted, there'd be no 2nd date if she didn't pay, a lady always pays for a gentlemen to show she's serious, a woman who doesn't pay is a cheap loser, there wouldn't be enough negative words in the English language to throw at him. Because it's women, it seems to be ok. Women don't even see the double standard. What happens when a man spends let's say $1200 on a woman and then he needs a new tv but can't afford it. How many women would have the class to buy him one for $1200 as a "treat" and even the score? Women like being taken out, they like being lavished with gifts, they like being able to quit work for the rest of their lives if they feel like it. Too bad men don't have the same choices in life. Men have to be the grownups.

 

You act like men have no free will. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on a woman or take her on trips or any of that if you don't want to. You don't have to pay for everything. In fact, I don't know any women who expect a man to just pay for everything as a relationship progresses.

 

If a man wants to buy me a $1200 gift, that's on him. If he is in such a state of destitution that the $1200 gift he bought me doesn't allow him to buy himself a new TV, well then he is a complete moron and I probably wouldn't date him anyway. You don't spend $1200 on someone else and then claim you can't afford to buy a new TV. I mean, who does that?

 

Women like being taken out, they like being lavished with gifts,

 

Yes, women like being taken out. Some women like being lavished with gifts; some women aren't gift people at all. Are you saying men don't like being lavished with gifts? Have you never had a woman buy you a nice gift?

 

they like being able to quit work for the rest of their lives if they feel like it.

 

How do I swing this? How many women do you actually know who have just quit work for the rest of their lives because they felt like it? I would love to do that! Will you help? Since you apparently have no free will or choice in how you spend your money, I should be able to Jedi mind trick you into sending me money so I no longer have to work. To the extent that you do know any women who don't work in some manner outside the home, they are probably at home raising children. Because that's not work...

[Els]

You act like men have no free will. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on a woman or take her on trips or any of that if you don't want to.

 

Exactly. FFS. We're (mostly) adults here living in a free world. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to do this or else.

 

"But we have to do it or else we don't get sexed up!" you say. Well that's on you. Crude's post can easily be changed to:

 

Let's reverse the genders. If a woman ever said that she expects the man to wax his crotch, underarms, eyebrows, and legs because she likes them perfectly smooth, expects him to walk around in high-heeled stilettos, expects him to put up with menstrual pain without a single complaint, expects him to keep waist-long hair that involves an hour of maintenance a day, expects him to be okay with not orgasming some of the times they have sex, and expects him to have fewer previous sexual partners than her, there wouldn't be enough negative words in the English language to describe her.

 

"That's all nothing compared to paying for dates."

Really? Why don't you try it and tell me. Start with waxing your balls, then maybe move on to stilettos for an hour if you survive.

 

"Well, nobody's telling you to do all of that! Plenty of men are fine without some of that. Why don't you stop going for the shallow dudes and find one like that?"

...Yeah, exactly. Someone finally got the point *golfclap*.

[Els]

I have no issue doing the traditional stuff if she will do her part as well. I think the issue with some men is that after years of being lectured on how sexist traditional gender roles are now some women want to bring back the ones that they would benefit from. It's more the hypocrisy than anything else. Some women know how to naturally make a man want to be chivalrous and I think it would be good to learn that instead of demanding we do it.

 

I definitely agree with the demanding bit. Anyone who meets a demander should run like the wind. Be they male or female.

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you should really do what you want to do. Don't 'do it because I was taught to but then I expect xyz in return'. It's difficult to classify behaviour into traditionally masculine or feminine. Is looking good on dates 'traditionally feminine'? Some would say yes. How about driving, is that 'traditionally masculine'? Where do you draw the line?

 

Give only what you want to give, and look for someone with the qualities you want. Don't give just because you expect the corollary in return - it never works out that way.

[Els]

I think what he means is that there are women out there that want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

That's one of the reasons why I almost never pay for girls on a date. The only exceptions to this was if I knew her beforehand and like her already (ie: she's done something to warrant me paying). If it's a girl I just met, no way.

 

Usually, I avoid traditional dates so this rarely comes up anyway. And if it does come up, I just charm my way out of it.

 

Well, people can want what they want - as long as it either works for them or they're happy being single. I know guys who not only go dutch, but also show up to dates in a tee and jeans but expect the woman to show up looking like a million dollars. Guys who sleep around but want to marry a virgin. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't complain about having trouble getting a gf. It really is up to the individual couple.

 

I think your modus operandi is perfectly fine. I wouldn't go on a date unless I already knew and liked the person myself, anyway.

[Woggle]

Well, people can want what they want - as long as it either works for them or they're happy being single. I know guys who not only go dutch, but also show up to dates in a tee and jeans but expect the woman to show up looking like a million dollars. Guys who sleep around but want to marry a virgin. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they don't complain about having trouble getting a gf. It really is up to the individual couple.

 

I think your modus operandi is perfectly fine. I wouldn't go on a date unless I already knew and liked the person myself, anyway.

 

These guys can want what they want but they are complete hypocrites in the same way that women who are against anything traditional except for when traditional works in their favor are hypocrites. Don't ask what you can't deliver yourself.

[impendia]

Please let me ask everyone's opinion (and perhaps court a controversy...)

 

There is a rule that "the gentleman pays" on a date. And beyond that, the man is supposed to do the planning, the asking, and so on.

 

I have always found this rule disagreeable. Can I ask how important this is, when this rule might be broken, and what purpose it is supposed to serve?

 

Some context is in order. First of all, I make a good salary, and I don't mind paying for experiences that I value. The issue isn't that women aren't "worth it", but rather that the custom is strangely unequal, and also that it seems to fly in the face of the woman's sense of independence. To me, the custom almost seems insulting to the woman, as if you are bribing her for her company. That is not how I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.

 

I might mention that I am ambitious, very independent, perhaps borderline Asperger's (not quite, but I have some things in common), and Type-A (I am a math professor) and I am attracted to women who are also independent and high achievers.

 

I might also mention that I don't put the highest priority on "showing you care". For example, I was pursued by a woman last year who kept calling or e-mailing just to say hi, and who also cooked or bought me gifts several times --- and (sadly) this found my blind spot; it was obviously very kind, but to me it seemed sort of empty as a gesture, and I didn't appreciate it as much as I know many other men would.

 

(I mention this, because paying for dates seem like it would lead to a relationship where both partners make a substantial effort to repeatedly demonstrate how much they care... which somehow doesn't sound like what I want.)

 

With this in mind, can forum readers suggest how I might approach a first date? Is it better to be authentic, and to treat my date as I would want to be treated myself? Or is there virtue in adhering to the "guy pays" rule, even if I find it counterintuitive?

 

Thank you very much!

[Ami1uwant]

What is the issue? Have you asked women out? who are you attracting?

 

I bet you have some form of aspergers.

 

The way things usually work is the man asked a woman out on a date. The first date he pays. Ask out for date #2 he pays, on the third date she may off to pay part of it.....like you pay for meal, she pay for tickets.

[its a lifestyle]

I skimmed your post with my eyes, briefly...

 

Something about, guys always paying for dates... disagreeable.. why is it that way blablabla...

 

 

why is it ok for men to sleep around but not women?

why can black people use the "N" word but white people can't?

why it is good practice to let ladies go first?

why this why that?

 

Ways of the world, society shapes itself... deal with it.

 

Count yourself lucky, in the victorian men were expected to lay their coats on the ground in a puddle just so a women could walk through it so she didn't have to walk around it.

[crude]

 

 

why is it ok for men to sleep around but not women?

 

 

Ways of the world, society shapes itself... deal with it.

 

 

You make it sound like society changes with time. In this particular time, that sexual double standard is adhered to by weasels. Many a woman has an active sex life and isn't tarred and feathered. And women now earn good money, and shouldn't expect to be paid for, like it or not. These idiotic double standards only last as long as people are too gutless to say no way and do the right thing.