Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[melaniechung292]

I believe in Chivalry, I always pay no matter what. Yeah I am a sucker like that.

Can we date?

[JOYTOME]

I am a woman but I don't really understand why men should always pay for a first date. Who started this "trend", where did it come from, and what does it imply about our society? Do you think that men should continue to pay for dinner even after a first date?

I've always had this awkward moment when it comes to paying the check at a restaurant. Is it just me? I feel kind of guilty...

Thanks for your feedbacks and answers!

 

What it implies about society is that if you're going to ask a girl to accompany you on a first date, society expects you to be courteous and gentlemanly enough to pick up the bill. It's just what it is and if a guy, choose to defy this trend, well, I'm not too sure he'll be getting a second date. It's such a basic rule of etiquette... I reckon if you appreciate a semblance of chivalry in a man, you'll appreciate him paying on the first date.

[Buttercup84]

If a guys asks if he can take me out to dinner, I would assume that he would pay. But I always take money with me and when the bill comes, I take my money out.

 

So far, only a few men paid for my drink or dinner. Last date I went on, he paid for my drink and date before that ( other guy ) I paid for lunch because I suck. Never heard from him again.

 

Best to go halves, but if he chased me and asked me out, he should make a little effort.

 

I am always happy to pay my share and take turns paying for their meals. I do that with friends as well.

[Buttercup84]

I believe in Chivalry, I always pay no matter what. Yeah I am a sucker like that.

 

 

So when are you picking me up ?

[BluEyeL]

Yeah, it makes sense, though the world has changed now, women have more power than they had before. Why do guys still have to pay for everything all the time when they are not even wealthy? I think many women take advantage of men by going on "many" first dates. It's unfair!

 

Because it is not about the money, paying is a way for a man to say that he appreciates the time that the woman is offering to him, and is courtesy, shows generosity that might translate in the future. If he insists to split the check it is also an indication of his future probably non-generous behavior (not only material generosity). Although gender roles changed, some things are still in place and are rooted in tradition and even biology. Some men could also feel emasculated if you aggressively insist that you can pay. If they know you have a job before they meet you, they also know you can pay, it's not about that. Most men want to pay, they just don't want you to take it for granted, so you can offer to split the check at the end. I'm going on many first dates, but believe me, definitely not for the freaking food. What woman would go through the trouble of dating for food, a homeless?? If I insisted to pay, for me, it would mean I'm really not interested in the guy. I did it once.

[RedRobin]

Neither. Tons of free stuff to do that is fun. Lots more creative too.

[soccerrprp]

I believe that the guy should pay for the first date. That's me. The traditional "provider" view. But, LOVE IT when the ladies offer to help or pay all together! It's happened to me a couple of times, but not often enough.

[ImperfectionisBeauty]

The guy pays, I think I went out with a guy once who didnt pay and I was so not going out with him again. I think it's just polite but I always offer my ex said he would never let me pay for anything if I was out with him and he didn't

[SuperGeek]

The woman should pay for me of course

[BoneyHadger]

Best bet is to do something for a first date, that doesn't require dropping huge amounts of money, to avoid the dilemma altogether. Lavish dinner doesn't sound like too grand of an idea.

 

With that being said, I like courting a woman I already know I like and it is reciprocated.

 

Heck, once had a woman pay for me, in return for a favor I've did for her earlier.

[musemaj11]

Men will always be men and women will always be women.

 

This is why I find it ironic that affirmative action is reserved for women rather than men when its men who are more in need of a source of income as the gender who are judged by their financial capability and expected to be the main bearer of financial burden.

 

In a fair world, men should be the one getting a priority for employment, promotion, and higher wage because more often than not, a man's salary will also be shared with at least a woman and a child in his family. And in terms of dating, a man's salary will more often than not also go to paying for a woman's meals, movie tickets, and the gas to drive her around.

 

Its a trickle down effect. Give money to a man and it will go to everyone else and everyone is happy.

Edited May 6, 2013 by musemaj11

[crude]

Because it is not about the money, paying is a way for a man to say that he appreciates the time that the woman is offering to him, and is courtesy, shows generosity that might translate in the future.

 

Couldn't that apply in the other direction? If a woman asks a man out and pays, she's showing him she appreciates his time and company, and perhaps she'll be generous in the future and a good provider for her family. From what I've observed, women expect to be paid for on EVERY SINGLE DATE. No exceptions. As far as feeling emasculated, in 2013 single women in cities make more $$$ than their male counterparts. I wonder how manly a guy feels when he reads that more males are living with their parents, while more females than ever are buying their own condos and houses. The man pays for the dates and can't afford to live on his own, while women have extra cash for real estate because they don't pay for their dates, not just the first, but every one. I think they feel like chumps.

[123321]

Men will always be men and women will always be women.

 

 

About 2/3 of the money earned is earned by men. About 5/6 of the money spent is spent by women. Hmmm.

[JOYTOME]

...but then you'd be ignoring gender-role practices which, to an extent are still prevalent in this era. I don't think there's anything wrong in desiring financial stability in a man, it's the appeal that's attached to the idea of masculinity. Doesn't mean, a wife won't work or run a business or whatever, it just means she wants a man who'd prioritise his family's welfare and needs; a man who has the desire to provide for his family.

 

That said, of course marriage is a partnership so if the man needs support, his wife should be the person he turns to...

 

Also, whilst I think it's important for a man to pay the bill during the early stages of dating, I think within the context of a relationship, women should

treat their men to dates/gift them with nice items etc...relationships are

about sharing and giving and I'd hope that a reasonable women would

understand the need to give sometimes. Basic relationship etiquettes...a

relationship is two way, likewise a marriage. However, this shouldn't detract

from the primary responsibilities of a man...he shouldn't take it for granted

that his wife or SO earns a good living and then become complacent and

start sponging off her...increasingly common these days.There's nothing more appealing than a man who wants to provide for his family regardless of of his wife's billions in the bank. The manly instinct to protect and provide is irreplaceable, for me personally anyway.

 

Couldn't that apply in the other direction? If a woman asks a man out and pays, she's showing him she appreciates his time and company, and perhaps she'll be generous in the future and a good provider for her family. From what I've observed, women expect to be paid for on EVERY SINGLE DATE. No exceptions. As far as feeling emasculated, in 2013 single women in cities make more $$$ than their male counterparts. I wonder how manly a guy feels when he reads that more males are living with their parents, while more females than ever are buying their own condos and houses. The man pays for the dates and can't afford to live on his own, while women have extra cash for real estate because they don't pay for their dates, not just the first, but every one. I think they feel like chumps.

Edited May 6, 2013 by JOYTOME

[melaniechung292]

Originally Posted by musemaj11

Men will always be men and women will always be women.

 

-> SO TRUE!

[crude]

However, this shouldn't detract

from the primary responsibilities of a man...he shouldn't take it for granted

that his wife or SO earns a good living and then become complacent and

start sponging off her...increasingly common these days.

 

 

 

That's called a double standard. When a man lives off a woman's money, he's a sponge because his primary role is to be a breadwinner. When a woman lives off a man, she's not a sponge because her primary role is to be a mooch. That's not a logical reason, just gender based discrimination, and some men don't buy into it. Some women too.

[JOYTOME]

What you're attempting to do is to overturn a tradition that has existed for centuries. Whilst some harmful traditional trends should be discarded with, I don't believe the tradition of a man providing for his family qualifies as a harmful traditional practice. The problem with modernity is the erroneous belief that everything modern is good and the condescending attitude towards traditional practices.

 

Double standard? Lol. The male gender has benefited and still continues to benefit from double-standards, far more than women. Regardless, double standards will always exist, men will be men, women will be women, the world has it's rules (no absolutes though), that's life. Truth is it is far more socially acceptable for a woman to rely on her husband as the bread winner than vice versa and most men I've come across actually WANT to provide for their families. They don't challenge or contest the obligation, it's a different thing entirely if he's facing a financial challenge because he lost his job or going through a temporary low point. That said I think women should aspire to work and earn a living...what if the husband dies suddenly? What if they get divorced? What If the husband loses his job? It's important for women to be economically empowered.

 

 

 

That's called a double standard. When a man lives off a woman's money, he's a sponge because his primary role is to be a breadwinner. When a woman lives off a man, she's not a sponge because her primary role is to be a mooch. That's not a logical reason, just gender based discrimination, and some men don't buy into it. Some women too.

[crude]

Let's be honest. The reason why women insist that men pay for 90-100% of the dates is that they CAN. If a businesswoman insisted that her clients pay for the meal when she invited them out, she'd never make a sale. If a woman demanded that her friends always cover her tab whenever they go out, they'd quickly cease to be her friends. But when women think they're entitled to be courted and wined and dined by men or else there's no more dates, I'll never pay my own way or plan nice outings for you and pay, they can actually get away with it. Men always bow and pander to them. Like a spoiled brat who's never disciplined by the parents.

[JOYTOME]

Please list some examples.

 

Examples of double standards that favour men?

 

1) men get away with promiscuity, far more than a woman would...exemplified by the fact that women reduce their numbers (when narrating sexual history) *whilst men inflate their figures. Different rules as regards sexual conduct apply to men and women. Men are hi-5ed for sowing their oats, women are berated for attempting to replicate such behaviour.*

 

2) Perhaps not as frequently in America as it occurs in other parts of the world, but men can get away with a lot of bad behaviour in relationships, including the US. For example, a married man could easily cheat multiple times and still be accepted by and forgiven by his spouse. Conversely, cheating on the part of wives is considered taboo and fewer men would tolerate or accept such in comparison to the higher number of women who'd accept it.*

 

3) In the work place, granted women are achieving a whole lot, we have female presidents, prime ministers etc; but reality is they still constitute the exception and the minority. Men still dominate many positions of power and authority and women have to "prove" themselves to obtain these positions. In many parts of the world, a female president will not be elected for the next few decades.

 

4) Men can chase and hunt women to whatever extent they desire. They can brazenly and blatantly go for what they want and still be respected and adored; accost a woman, approach her and chat her up. As a woman, if you try such stunts, you'd be considered cheap, easy and devoid of mystery. Regardless of how you feel, you're well advised to WAIT for the man to come to you, woo you etc otherwise trouble looms ahead. Men are expected to propose to a woman not vice versa. Women have less choice and power to pursue their desires in a raw, honest manner that's available to men.*

 

5) While the pay gap isn't as bad as it once was, *it still exists, *in addition to employment opportunities. Furthermore some employers in certain fields actually make a conscious *effort *not to hire women. Plus some of them *make it so difficult to be a nursing-working-mother. Men however go through life, without *having to ever worry about maternity issues etc.*

 

6) Women are more vulnerable to sexual exploitation and harassment in the work place. E.g having to sleep with a boss to get promoted or to even secure a job. This is far more prevalent that people like to admit. Refusal to participate in such acts can have serious consequences for a woman for example no bonuses, no promotion or might even receive the sack. It's one thing to flirt with a pretty, competent, hardworking *employee, it's another to demand sex from her with a threat to withhold her bonuses or sack her in the event of resistance.

 

7) women still perform the bulk of domestic duties, yeah a man might help wash the dishes once in a while ( in many parts of the world, many men do not wash the dishes) and change the bulbs or fix a broken cupboard but that's a far cry from breastfeeding, preparing meals every day, ensuring the house is tidy etc. Even if you can afford a chef/steward /nanny etc, the woman is still responsible for supervising the activities of these staff.

 

I'm happy to conform to the social double standards and I've accepted it for what it is...I'm too shy to chat a man up and I'm not a fan of casual, meaningless sex anyway so I'm not overly concerned. Obviously *other issues like pay margins, sexual exploitation etc are deeper, abhorrent trends *which i hope will someday be extinct.

 

In a nutshell, I still don't understand why the prospect of a man providing for his family is considered a bad thing.*

[JOYTOME]

Let's be honest. The reason why women insist that men pay for 90-100% of the dates is that they CAN. If a businesswoman insisted that her clients pay for the meal when she invited them out, she'd never make a sale. If a woman demanded that her friends always cover her tab whenever they go out, they'd quickly cease to be her friends. But when women think they're entitled to be courted and wined and dined by men or else there's no more dates, I'll never pay my own way or plan nice outings for you and pay, they can actually get away with it. Men always bow and pander to them. Like a spoiled brat who's never disciplined by the parents.

 

You're totally ignoring the unique dynamics of a male-female romantic

relationship. How can you compare a business meeting to a date? Okay,

what exactly are you proposing? That women pay the bills on the 1st/2nd date? That men shouldn't make an effort to make a woman feel special by

wooing her? We're talking about dinner...not buying her a house.

Edited May 8, 2013 by JOYTOME

[JOYTOME]

Maybe in the US because laws are better enforced there, in comparison to less developed countries.

 

Without a doubt, both sexes experience gender-specific challenges, sadly. For example you mention that male soldiers put their lives on the line. Very true, but who are the the most vulnerable victims in war-time? women...they are raped by soldiers (think Bosnia where rape was used as a systematic weapon, think Congo, Rwanda, Iraq). Even female soldiers are in danger of being raped.

 

#5 is wrong sorry but there's usually a quota how many non whites and even women need to be in a company

 

 

There's more money donated to breast cancer research. Even saving the whales gets more funds for research than men's penile cancer research.

 

 

Women tend to get the kids in a divorce and pretty much most of the money.

 

Men can go to jail if he can't meet child support even working 3 jobs.

 

Men are pretty much laughed at if cops are called due to their gf or wife abusing them physically.

 

 

Let me ask you how many women are in the front line in a war? How many women die during a dangerous job? Women on the whole make more than men, in fact more women are graduating from university than males.

Male are looked as disposable, men are looked at on how much he can provide

for the family and if that's in the case in the future women just leaves him. A

man without money can't get into a relationship whereas a woman without

money can.

 

Trust me, a penniless man can get into a relationship, he just needs to find a woman with deep pockets who's relatively desperate to marry or settle down.

 

Sadly, men are (unprotected) victims of domestic violence, but women suffer a lot as well. For example in many parts of the world, a police officer will not intervene if he sees a man pushing his wife because such matters are considered domestic and so outside the purview of public involvement.

[JOYTOME]

Actually men are victims of violence more than women. As for rape, men can get raped too. There was a guy got raped by 3 women. A lot of men don't speak up. Men in prison get raped too.

 

What's I'm saying that we all need to put effort into dating not just men. I am not going to be interested if I put in most of the effort. I have to ask many women and get rejected to even get a date. I need to initiate contact with her then buy all the dating expenses. Then one day I she might say oh I'm not interested anymore. It gets tiring after a while. Men aren't asking even for 50/50 effort, some effort would be nice including expenses in dating.[/quote

 

 

I'm not in disagreement, women should endeavour to treat their men to nice things as well within the context of a relationship. If however a man is

grumbling about paying for a woman's meal on the first date? Lol, that would be very off-putting. If he can't afford to take her to dinner, he should explore cheaper options, anything! Even a visit to a free museum

would be better than going dutch on a first or second date! It screams STINGY!

[Els]

I just want to pop in to thank the mods who made this into a consolidated thread several months ago. It has been a HUGE help.

 

Thank you.

[JOYTOME]

I mentioned this a few weeks ago, I ALWAYS offer to cover my costs, religiously. If, however a date accepted my offer to pay I'd be put- off. So I offer to pay, hoping that he is gentle-manly enough to refuse my offer, which is usually the case. It's not about the money, I can afford to take myself out to dinner, it's just about mere courtesy from a guy.

 

 

There's no reason why a woman can't pay her own way. She works. I have paid for all my dates, never made it a big deal. The ones that were interested me at least offered to pay. It's not even about money.

[JOYTOME]

Lol, I wouldn't get "angry", I just wouldn't go on another date with him in the foreseeable future. It's not about the money, it's about the mind-set of the guy and what it says about his values. If a guy is averse to paying on a date, it says a lot ( of less than impressive) things about him.

 

 

 

Ha. Well if I dated you maybe this one time I could accepted the offer to see a person actually mean it. I heard of stories women offering to pay and then get angry if the man accepts.

 

No big deal to me, I'm not that hard up on dating or having a relationship.

 

Btw how can you say it's not about money when you get upset if you need to spend it.