Feminism and real men.

[sally4sara]

It seems to me that what men call "being a man", as in something taught by a person born male and judged (by other men) to be manly to someone else born of the male gender but yet to be considered a man (by other men). Could it be that it is really just a skill set that, if so friggin important, ought be taught to everyone if the skill set has any real worth in life?

 

So this very important skill set would need to be taught only to men for it to really be "being a man" wouldn't it?

 

And if it is so very important, is it not a willful act of restriction, an intentional impediment to ones' opportunity for life success, to not teach such a very important skill set to all?

 

But if we teach it to all, then it will no longer be "being a man" would it? And if all learned it, then all could teach it to all further making it not "being a man".

 

Perhaps men are just worried they won't know how to define themselves if women can no longer be what they leverage their own identities off? Maybe it is just an upsetting prospect if half the population one day shows they to can have the same valued skill set and "being a man" is revealed to not be so intrinsically male. It will not remain so easy for men to be proud of just being born male if they cannot continue to attribute learned and learn able skills to having been born male.

 

I think I'm getting why some men are so pissed off about feminism. It really is stealing their oh too easy identity. Pfffff. Is a dog proud of its ability to hike its leg? Maybe I should be proud of my ability to grow mammary glands?

 

Husband just made a really good point. For so long, and more strongly still perpetuated in non Western culture comparatively, very defined male and female roles drove our behaviors. Since this same rate of progress isn't prevalent globally, it is met with fear and suspicion. We are still connected via media and internet, making us aware of regional difference. Sad really when Western men cannot think of themselves as noble pioneers toward a furtherance of our collective species rather than going tantrumy over not being able to hold progress back in the effort to cling to a rigged game, a falsehood identity of what it is to "be a man".

[udolipixie]

So me and the other peoplte up here have the impression you pulled those studies out of your a$$. So next time put somet hing worth some value out of it. You can lmao but you are the joke. I know what a strawman is. If you would actually READ I said I don't give a f**k about.

I couldn't care less what you and other people on here have the impression of. I didn't pull the studies out of my a$$ as I cited my sources to others.

 

Interesting that you don't give a f**ck about you making an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation.

 

Seems more like emotional reaction to hearing something that one dislikes or feeling victimized not sure how ss I didn't state I endorsed or believed it in fact implying the opposite and I didn't make a fact, generalization, or argument out of it. I did put something as worth some value out of it I posted a turnaround to show another user for me having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong. The value to be gotten is that when someone states something as a fact, definitive truth, or rule having similar experiences doesn't mean what was said isn't completely wrong.

Listen, I was raised by a single mother and I am hopeless with women. Coincidence? Maybe, but he's not completely wrong.

Many studies have consistently shown that the majority of guys will rape if there's no consequences so I suppose it maybe a coincidence it's not completely wrong that the majority of guys will rape given the opportunity.

 

I know many gals who dated black guys and encountered far more sexism than other races so I suppose it maybe a coincidence but they're not completely wrong that black guys are the most sexist race.

Edited May 26, 2012 by udolipixie

[joystickd]

I couldn't care less what you and other people on here have the impression of. I didn't pull the studies out of my a$$ as I cited my sources to others.

 

Interesting that you don't give a f**ck about you making an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation.

 

Seems more like emotional reaction to hearing something that one dislikes or feeling victimized not sure how ss I didn't state I endorsed or believed it in fact implying the opposite and I didn't make a fact, generalization, or argument out of it. I did put something as worth some value out of it I posted a turnaround to show another user for me having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong. The value to be gotten is that when someone states something as a fact, definitive truth, or rule having similar experiences doesn't mean what was said isn't completely wrong.

Whatever!!

Edited May 26, 2012 by joystickd

[joystickd]

I couldn't care less what you and other people on here have the impression of. I didn't pull the studies out of my a$$ as I cited my sources to others.

 

Interesting that you don't give a f**ck about you making an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation.

 

Seems more like emotional reaction to hearing something that one dislikes or feeling victimized not sure how ss I didn't state I endorsed or believed it in fact implying the opposite and I didn't make a fact, generalization, or argument out of it. I did put something as worth some value out of it I posted a turnaround to show another user for me having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong. The value to be gotten is that when someone states something as a fact, definitive truth, or rule having similar experiences doesn't mean what was said isn't completely wrong.

I didn't realize you were the female John Madden and instead of giving play by play analysis of football plays you were doing arguments. Attempt all you want to say its illogical. I bet most of the people here get it and agree with what I am saying. Come on now reconciling humanity and all that other mumbo jumbo you talking not really about being a man. Honestly you should be thanking men for instilling healthy values in the women that eventually became feminist. If it wasn't for fathers there would be no feminists. Those women wouldn't have recognized their value as a woman in the context of man and woman relations

[udolipixie]

I couldn't care less what you and other people on here have the impression of. I didn't pull the studies out of my a$$ as I cited my sources to others.

 

Interesting that you don't give a f**ck about you making an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation.

 

Seems more like emotional reaction to hearing something that one dislikes or feeling victimized not sure how ss I didn't state I endorsed or believed it in fact implying the opposite and I didn't make a fact, generalization, or argument out of it. I did put something as worth some value out of it I posted a turnaround to show another user for me having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong. The value to be gotten is that when someone states something as a fact, definitive truth, or rule having similar experiences doesn't mean what was said isn't completely wrong.

Different definitions of the word 'all'.

 

There's three- f**ck (f*ck), ss (as), and similiar (similar).

 

Telling how you went from not caring about having an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation to discrediting by spelling rather than the statement.

[joystickd]

Different definitions of the word 'all'.

 

There's three- f**ck (f*ck), ss (as), and similiar (similar).

 

Telling how you went from not caring about having an irrational and illogical stance based on interpretation to discrediting by spelling rather than the statement.

OK Madden I bet you get wet by this

[udolipixie]

I didn't realize you were the female John Madden and instead of giving play by play analysis of football plays you were doing arguments. Attempt all you want to say its illogical. I bet most of the people here get it and agree with what I am saying. Come on now reconciling humanity and all that other mumbo jumbo you talking not really about being a man.

Wow just wow...

 

Only arguments I'm doing is:

#1 Stating the rule is guys with single mothers have no man to teach him how to be a man is overlooking other male figures in his life such as grandfathers, uncles, male cousins, and male role models.

#2 Stating the rule is guys who are fathers know how to teach their sons to be a man is overlooking the possibility that the dad may not be a competent teacher.

#3 Having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong

 

As for mumbo jumbo that's a toss up I was stating that the guy who has poor male role models would probably be best suited to reconcile his humanity first then gender identity by considering what type of person he wishes to be (honorable, loyal, faithful, deceptive, manipulative). I'm of a "be a person first be a gender second" mindset in that you chose what kind of person you wish to be then define your gender by choosing the roles available, creating a role from the ones available, or the dynamic one desires in a romantic/sexual relationship if they want one.

[udolipixie]

Honestly you should be thanking men for instilling healthy values in the women that eventually became feminist. If it wasn't for fathers there would be no feminists. Those women wouldn't have recognized their value as a woman in the context of man and woman relations

 

Again wow just wow

 

It's your belief that guys instilled healthy values in gals that eventually became feminists. One that overlooks that it gals may have also been instilling the healthy values in the gals that eventually became feminists.

 

It's your belief that if it wasn't for fathers that there would be no feminists or that gals wouldn't have recognized their value. One that overlooks that it mothers may have also taught their daughters to recognize a gal's value. As well as that many gals may have already known their value as a gal not believing the 'guys are superior & gals are inferior societal message'.

 

If anything I should be thanking feminists and the people who encouraged feminism though it's telling that you state I should be thanking guys. I suppose to you a gal can't recognize her worth without a guy telling her or that healthy values are solely or mainly instilled by guys?

Edited May 26, 2012 by udolipixie

[ThaWholigan]

It seems to me that what men call "being a man", as in something taught by a person born male and judged (by other men) to be manly to someone else born of the male gender but yet to be considered a man (by other men). Could it be that it is really just a skill set that, if so friggin important, ought be taught to everyone if the skill set has any real worth in life?

 

So this very important skill set would need to be taught only to men for it to really be "being a man" wouldn't it?

 

And if it is so very important, is it not a willful act of restriction, an intentional impediment to ones' opportunity for life success, to not teach such a very important skill set to all?

 

But if we teach it to all, then it will no longer be "being a man" would it? And if all learned it, then all could teach it to all further making it not "being a man".

 

These are interesting questions. I have never thought about it as such before. Primarily because I think gender roles are certainly flexible, but certainly if one is looking at it purely from the point of view of learning attributes that are useful to every person as an individual human being.

 

I think for the purposes of this thread, we are looking at it from the point of view of why so many men are failing at dating, and some have attributed it to a lack of masculinity. So I think you raise an important query that I don't think I can actually answer, but with my own question. Which would probably be, if teaching this particular skill set to all people negates the idea of that skill set being tied to the theory of "being a man", then how does one define masculinity as a result?

 

Perhaps men are just worried they won't know how to define themselves if women can no longer be what they leverage their own identities off? Maybe it is just an upsetting prospect if half the population one day shows they to can have the same valued skill set and "being a man" is revealed to not be so intrinsically male. It will not remain so easy for men to be proud of just being born male if they cannot continue to attribute learned and learn able skills to having been born male.

Possibly, but I don't think it's quite so cut-and-dry as men being proud of being male by virtue of being born as such. More to do with being successful in all facets of ones life, especially with regards to being good at attracting women. As I said previously, I don't think of it as a man trying to leverage himself off of a woman's identity. My personal feeling is that a man can embody feminine traits and forge his own individual identity, and thus attract a woman who resonates at a different frequency, possibly identifying with more masculine associated character traits. I just think that men want to be successful really, and some really do not know how to do that and how to reconcile their own identities. And I think the masculine ideal is one way of getting in touch with who it is they are and who they want to be. But again, begs the question, how does one define masculinity?

 

I think I'm getting why some men are so pissed off about feminism. It really is stealing their oh too easy identity. Pfffff. Is a dog proud of its ability to hike its leg? Maybe I should be proud of my ability to grow mammary glands?

I don't know about that. I have never had an interest in feminism or MRA or anything like that. Everyone is an individual, and relating to each gender has never been a problem of mine. As such, I'm proud of many things about myself, so my personal identity has never been in doubt.

 

Husband just made a really good point. For so long, and more strongly still perpetuated in non Western culture comparatively, very defined male and female roles drove our behaviors. Since this same rate of progress isn't prevalent globally, it is met with fear and suspicion. We are still connected via media and internet, making us aware of regional difference. Sad really when Western men cannot think of themselves as noble pioneers toward a furtherance of our collective species rather than going tantrumy over not being able to hold progress back in the effort to cling to a rigged game, a falsehood identity of what it is to "be a man".

Is this really the case? I am not too sure. Maybe in the case of a subset of men, but I wouldn't call them the majority, seeing as they lack the gumption to even influence or stop the slow change towards new ideals in the masculine and feminine. I think that we are not talking about western based men in general, but more a small section within them who are either struggling with success (women, job, life etc). I wouldn't mind an elaboration, as I'm intrigued by your post.

 

I'm not getting involved in the majority of this thread, as it's the same old, same old. However, THIS is actually interesting.

 

TW, I agree wholeheartedly that father figures are often crucial to men developing the skills needed for romantic and often social success. Certainly father figures don't have to be fathers in all cases, but every male figure is not a father figure. I also know men who didn't have father figures, but were forced to become father figures at younger ages, to younger siblings, etc, and have the same set of skills as a result of it. There is something to this phenomenon.

 

I would say that I am a person who has lacked suitable male role models in my life, for numerous reasons. I have had to learn everything by rote. I am blessed that I am relatively intuitive enough to learn things in the way I do.

 

Obviously, mother-figures are important as well -- and women without mother-figures have similar issues, TBH, as far as I've observed -- and father-figures are important to girls and mother-figures to boys. That doesn't necessarily require a 2-parent household or any set configuration, but it is something worth looking at so we can help the many children who don't have BOTH figures in their lives at present become adults who still feel whole.

Of course, I think my mother is hugely important. She has tried to be my mother and my father at times. But she had always tried to drag my father into my life as she often told me that only a father can teach his son how to be a man, a woman cannot be a father. Her words. I have enough women in my family to be able to relate to women, but relating to myself was difficult until I went to secondary school, a roman catholic boys school. That is where I started my journey of learning to be myself, as a male.

 

I will say that I've (seriously) dated very few men in my life who had good relationships with their fathers. Some had father-figures and some did not. Hubby gets along with his father now, but he doesn't see him as a "Dad" and didn't have him growing up. Most of the other men I've dated either came from similar homes, with kind of distant fathers, or just didn't really 'get' or get along with their Dad as kids. A lot of them had reconciled with their Dads later in life, but most of them had forged other male relationships (whether peer or mentor) and found father figures elsewhere. I do think that works too, though I've not seen many studies on the phenomenon. It's a new trend in adolescent development, so I think we may soon.

Interesting. This has definitely given me food for thought.......

 

I don't think we can blame "feminism" for the lack of father-figures, though, as a subset of men have experienced it throughout time, especially as the mothers typically raised the children. In fact, there seems to be some evidence that in a more egalitarian world, where mothers and fathers are BOTH active parents, rather than mothers being a homemaker, that boys develop STRONGER relationships with their fathers. An absentee father CAN still live in the house, and I met many men who had no relationship with a man who slept 2 rooms away from them because he was never home, etc. There are various forms of absentee fathers, and many young men in the past had runaway fathers or fathers who were killed, etc, long before the modern age. However, communities and families being stronger, they probably suffered the loss less than we do today because someone else stepped into that role.

I absolutely agree, a mother and father are always a TEAM. The bacon-bringer and the home-maker theory has never resonated with me. My mother always worked while she was married to my stepfather, and to be fair to him, he was the one male figure I had in my life who was around. He taught me the value of developing strength without lacking substance. He was quite a harsh parent at times though. He, however, made much of his money......erm, illegally shall we say . I can't say community ever had a role in my upbringing, my mother was almost a sole influence, and in some ways still is, with the exception of my biological father.

 

Though no carnage for the cultural slander basically a claim that all or most black guys are sexist and more sexist than guys of other races?

 

No-one cares about black guys it appears

 

I did acknowledge the legitimacy I was on the logistics of it seemingly not being applicable to single fathers and two units. As well as the logistics of having similiar experiences doesn't mean when someone makes a definitive statement or rule they're not completely wrong. Nowhere did I state, suggest, or imply that the single mothers bit came from a place of malice. Though the a poster's definitive statement/rule about it does suggest to me it comes from a place of widespread truth.

So you suggest that it is merely a dangerous piece of misinformation that single mothers raise sons incompetent of attracting women or being successful? I could agree with that. What do you think is the ideal parental arrangement?

 

The guy who has poor male role models would probably be best suited to reconcile his humanity first then gender identity by considering what type of person he wishes to be (honorable, loyal, faithful, deceptive, manipulative). I'm of a "be a person first be a gender second" mindset. He'd define his masculinity by choosing throle he sees available for his gender though dynamic he desires in a romantic/sexual relationship if he wants such.

Good answer. I would say that being a good person first is a good start. Defining his masculinity will still be a cause for concern for him if he hasn't had the right guidance to help him towards that. But ultimately, it is his journey and one where in the end, he will still have to find himself without anybody's help.

 

As for your curiousity I don't think of masculinity as bad as it's generally defined as 'possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a man'. It's a concept and things such as concepts/groups aren't good or bad to me unless it's definition is what I see as hurting children or animals. So masculinity isn't bad to me as I see no hurting children or animals, NAMBLA is bad to me as I see child molesters as hurting children.

What is NAMBLA?

 

I'd define masculinity as 'possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a man'.

I would agree, but again, now it becomes a question of what is typical and appropriate to be a man? Seeing as the entire ideal of masculinity has been questioned throughout the whole thread, my inquisitive nature isn't completely satisfied without a thorough definition. Opinions???? Edited May 26, 2012 by ThaWholigan

[joystickd]

Again wow just wow

 

It's your belief that guys instilled healthy values in gals that eventually became feminists. One that overlooks that it gals may have also been instilling the healthy values in the gals that eventually became feminists.

 

It's your belief that if it wasn't for fathers that there would be no feminists or that gals wouldn't have recognized their value. One that overlooks that it mothers may have also taught their daughters to recognize a gal's value. As well as that many gals may have already known their value as a gal not believing the 'guys are superior & gals are inferior societal message'.

 

If anything I should be thanking feminists and the people who encouraged feminism though it's telling that you state I should be thanking guys. I suppose to you a gal can't recognize her worth without a guy telling her or that healthy values are solely or mainly instilled by guys?

 

When I say that I am not ignoring the role of women but you have to honestly take notice that daughter father relationships set the tone for her dealing with men and if he instilled the values of independence and not taking bad behavior from any man then she will go out in the world and be strong. A woman can teach but its hard to teach something without a visual example of it. When it comes to moms teaching men about dating then it becomes a problem

[udolipixie]

No-one cares about black guys it appears

So you suggest that it is merely a dangerous piece of misinformation that single mothers raise sons incompetent of attracting women or being successful? I could agree with that. What do you think is the ideal parental arrangement?

 

Good answer. I would say that being a good person first is a good start. Defining his masculinity will still be a cause for concern for him if he hasn't had the right guidance to help him towards that. But ultimately, it is his journey and one where in the end, he will still have to find himself without anybody's help.

 

What is NAMBLA?

 

I would agree, but again, now it becomes a question of what is typical and appropriate to be a man? Seeing as the entire ideal of masculinity has been questioned throughout the whole thread, my inquisitive nature isn't completely satisfied without a thorough definition. Opinions????

 

No one cares about black guys

 

I'm suggesting that it's illogical to state the rule is that guys with single mothers don't have a man to teach him how to be one and that guys who are fathers are competent teachers. Whether it's dangerous or misinformation depends on the person let them be the judge of that. It's not dangerous to me as I'm about logistics unless it's about hurting children or animals. It's misinformation to me if one is stating that's the rule and it's not misinformation to me if one is simply stating that single mothers as do other households do raise sons incompetent of attracting gals or being successful.

 

Defining his masculinity is likely still a cause of concern for him as to me he's a person first gender second. It's like how defining your gender, race, culture, and etc is likely a concern for most. Right guidance are the keywords to me hence why I stated it's illogical to me for one to state the rule is guys who are fathers are competent to teach him.

North American Man/Boy Love Association is a US pedophile and pederasty advocacy organization that works to abolish age of consent laws criminalizing adult sexual involvement with minors and the release of all guys that have been jailed for sexual contact with a minor without coercison. Essentially to me a group that wants to stop the laws saying adults can't have sex with children(babies, toddlers, and elementary/middle schoolers NOT simply minors like teenagers). As well as release guys that have been jailed for touching children if they did 'coerce' them such as if he said it'll feeling good rather than threaten/beat them.

 

A question of what's typical and appropriate to be a man to me is one answered by the one who wants to be a man or wants a man in their life be it family member, friend, or partner.

 

My opinion is that for those that want to be a man the answer is whatever one finds typical in the guys they want to be and finds appropriate for themselves. I separate typical & appropriate as there are traits in others one wants to be that they doesn't find appropriate for themselves.

 

My opinion is that for those that wnat a man in their life the answer is whatever one finds typical in the guys they admire/want to be with and find appropriate for their family members, friends, and romantic/sexual partners. I separate typical & appropriate as there are different traits one admires, wants, or finds appropriate that depends on if the guy is a family member, friend, or partner.

 

I'm not sure if my opinion of what traits I find typical and appropriate for a male counts since they are the same for a female as I have not typical/appropriate traits for a male romantic and sexual partner. Unless you count physical traits.

[udolipixie]

When I say that I am not ignoring the role of women but you have to honestly take notice that daughter father relationships set the tone for her dealing with men and if he instilled the values of independence and not taking bad behavior from any man then she will go out in the world and be strong. A woman can teach but its hard to teach something without a visual example of it. When it comes to moms teaching men about dating then it becomes a problem

 

Stating that the daughter father relationships set the tone for her dealing with men is quite different from stating that if it weren't for fathers there would be no feminists and I should be thanking men for instilling healthy values in the women that eventually became feminist.

 

A father can instill in his daughter the values of independence and not taking bad behavior however while a mother can it's hard without a visual example. What is the visual example that the father has when instilling independence and not accepting bad behavior in his daughter that the mothers don't?

[joystickd]

Stating that the daughter father relationships set the tone for her dealing with men is quite different from stating that if it weren't for fathers there would be no feminists and I should be thanking men for instilling healthy values in the women that eventually became feminist.

 

A father can instill in his daughter the values of independence and not taking bad behavior however while a mother can it's hard without a visual example. What is the visual example that the father has when instilling independence and not accepting bad behavior in his daughter that the mothers don't?

 

Father = opposite sex so mother = same sex. This mean that father instills a certain set of beliefs formed by her dealing with him. Look at women with absent fathers that spend time seeking validation from men. Look at it like this kids can be told 2+2 = 4 but it is not as profound as seeing an actual example of it equaling 4.

[TheFinalWord]

You stated I can't cite something and I stated I could cite something. That's not stating I believe or endorse the citation that's stating I can provide the citation. As I've repeatedly said I didn't cite when asked because when show factual evidence or research you dislike you often dismiss stating feminism or diminish/excuse it. Interesting how without me even citing it you followed the behavior pattern I stated you tend to do dismiss it by stating feminism and diminishing it.

 

'from whence such misandry issues'?

 

I regularly read and write studies for publication. I know a valid study when I see it, so please provide citations that most men would rape if there were no consequences. I can tell you I have read hundreds if not thousands of papers and I know many academic feminists and have never read or heard of such a claim.

[udolipixie]

Father = opposite sex so mother = same sex. This mean that father instills a certain set of beliefs formed by her dealing with him. Look at women with absent fathers that spend time seeking validation from men. Look at it like this kids can be told 2+2 = 4 but it is not as profound as seeing an actual example of it equaling 4.

 

To you interacting with the opposite sex parent is the visual example that the father has that makes it hard for a mother to teach the values of independence and not taking bad behavior in a daughter.

 

Bit curious as to if you aren't considering the mother's interaction and relationships with guys as a visual example as she's telling and showing with her actions?

 

I do see gals with absent fathers and gals with present fathers that spend time seeking validation from guys. That behavior seems to come from the importance she places on a male figure on her life. Absent father gals oftening placing heaving importance and feeling they missed out on something. Present father gals often feeling their fathers are of little use, importance, or he was dismissive and feeling they have to recreate what they think he should have been doing.

[udolipixie]

I regularly read and write studies for publication. I know a valid study when I see it, so please provide citations that most men would rape if there were no consequences. I can tell you I have read hundreds if not thousands of papers and I know many academic feminists and have never read or heard of such a claim.

 

For some reason I can't send you a private message?

 

Egh it's not a matter of academic feminists though it's a bit telling that you associate feminism with such studies.

[joystickd]

To you interacting with the opposite sex parent is the visual example that the father has that makes it hard for a mother to teach the values of independence and not taking bad behavior in a daughter.

 

Bit curious as to if you aren't considering the mother's interaction and relationships with guys as a visual example as she's telling and showing with her actions?

 

I do see gals with absent fathers and gals with present fathers that spend time seeking validation from guys. That behavior seems to come from the importance she places on a male figure on her life. Absent father gals oftening placing heaving importance and feeling they missed out on something. Present father gals often feeling their fathers are of little use, importance, or he was dismissive and feeling they have to recreate what they think he should have been doing.

I say that in the context of dealing with men not general. When it comes to men and mother's teaching them about dating I always say this: When it comes to dating momma was wrong. You see that all on this forum. Men in the context of dating mostly should take advice of men because there are few women that actually give honest advice.

[sally4sara]

These are interesting questions. I have never thought about it as such before. Primarily because I think gender roles are certainly flexible, but certainly if one is looking at it purely from the point of view of learning attributes that are useful to every person as an individual human being.

 

I think for the purposes of this thread, we are looking at it from the point of view of why so many men are failing at dating, and some have attributed it to a lack of masculinity. So I think you raise an important query that I don't think I can actually answer, but with my own question. Which would probably be, if teaching this particular skill set to all people negates the idea of that skill set being tied to the theory of "being a man", then how does one define masculinity as a result?

 

I am always suspicious of a person's need to prove their gender at all. I was born female, it is just naturally is part of my identity. I was successfully raised without a rigid gender identity as both men and women in my family taught me the skills they valued as individuals without any concern for making me too masculine or feminine. Their collective skill set would, in many ways, be deemed more masculine. I do not however, struggle with "being a woman" due to it. Which is to suggest, no amount of male influence worked against me "being a woman" or that I could only learn how to "be a woman" from women. I learned how to be THIS woman; the one that I am. Couldn't that be enough for everyone? And if it isn't - why?

 

 

Possibly, but I don't think it's quite so cut-and-dry as men being proud of being male by virtue of being born as such. More to do with being successful in all facets of ones life, especially with regards to being good at attracting women.

 

 

Ah, but this is more of men deciding the measure of success based on their easiest venue. If you are a heterosexual man, you will be sexually seeking female partners partially due to a biological imperative. That is to say, an activity you predominantly do of free will, but not entirely of free will. So too do women do this. Funny though, there is little room for women to be proud of gaining sexual approval from men in the same fashion. Instead they are given room for pride in gaining the same sexual approval from only a few men. In what way is this a necessity for women if the the opposite is really true for men? Other ways of succeeding as a man are - what exactly? What ways in life do men show they are men that women CAN NOT also do?

 

As I said previously, I don't think of it as a man trying to leverage himself off of a woman's identity. My personal feeling is that a man can embody feminine traits and forge his own individual identity, and thus attract a woman who resonates at a different frequency, possibly identifying with more masculine associated character traits. I just think that men want to be successful really, and some really do not know how to do that and how to reconcile their own identities. And I think the masculine ideal is one way of getting in touch with who it is they are and who they want to be. But again, begs the question, how does one define masculinity?

 

Define what it is to be a man. You may not rely as heavily as other men on being the opposite of a general sense of feminine traits. I don't have a problem with the concept of defining myself without feeling the need to expect the same out of every other woman. You might feel the same about it for yourself. I get the sense that that is true for you too from this:

 

I don't know about that. I have never had an interest in feminism or MRA or anything like that. Everyone is an individual, and relating to each gender has never been a problem of mine. As such, I'm proud of many things about myself, so my personal identity has never been in doubt.

Is this really the case? I am not too sure. Maybe in the case of a subset of men, but I wouldn't call them the majority, seeing as they lack the gumption to even influence or stop the slow change towards new ideals in the masculine and feminine. I think that we are not talking about western based men in general, but more a small section within them who are either struggling with success (women, job, life etc). I wouldn't mind an elaboration, as I'm intrigued by your post.

 

But clearly there are many people out their who need more propping up. They can't just define themselves and be done with it. They need to believe what they are is an ideal all should be as thought they don't just wake up and behave how is most convenient for them - nope they are ubermensch or uberfrau. We see it all the time in threads where people pick apart the behavior of someone and call into question their validity of their gender as thought it is something beyond it. They often confuse gender with sexual orientation.

 

 

 

I would say that I am a person who has lacked suitable male role models in my life, for numerous reasons. I have had to learn everything by rote. I am blessed that I am relatively intuitive enough to learn things in the way I do.

 

Of course, I think my mother is hugely important. She has tried to be my mother and my father at times. But she had always tried to drag my father into my life as she often told me that only a father can teach his son how to be a man, a woman cannot be a father. Her words. I have enough women in my family to be able to relate to women, but relating to myself was difficult until I went to secondary school, a roman catholic boys school. That is where I started my journey of learning to be myself, as a male.

 

Could it be possible that you, for lack of male role models, have less angst over defining yourself as a man because you didn't have the slice of it that brings heavy pressure to fit into an antiquated and counter productive masculine ideal? You may not have had the benefit of as many men teaching you their individual skill set, but you were also not held back by any that would be of the gotta be like me the ubermensch types. Is this a possible benefit no one saw coming and few dare to admit to? That the kind of men that will breath pressure to not show a single trace of "feminine" quality onto younger generations of men can actually be a detriment to the success of those younger generations of men?

[Taramere]

I grew up in a two parent family...parents have had a long and successful marriage, but I'm not aware of my father ever having given my older brother dating advice. Or, indeed, of my brother asking him for advice. In fact as far as I know, I'm the only one in the family my brother ever discussed that kind of thing with....being of the same generation. Mainly, though, I think he discussed things like that with his friends.

 

How usual is it for young guys to discuss dating and relationships with their fathers? I know Hollywood presents these idealised father/son relationships where all sorts of "son, it's time for you to learn how to be a man" talks go on...but how true to life is that?

 

What I mean is, have men really been ruined by feminism, distanced from their fathers etc....or are a lot of people hooked on some old movie inspired vision of a past that might not bear much resemblance to how things ever were for most people?

[ThaWholigan]

I am always suspicious of a person's need to prove their gender at all. I was born female, it is just naturally is part of my identity. I was successfully raised without a rigid gender identity as both men and women in my family taught me the skills they valued as individuals without any concern for making me too masculine or feminine. Their collective skill set would, in many ways, be deemed more masculine. I do not however, struggle with "being a woman" due to it. Which is to suggest, no amount of male influence worked against me "being a woman" or that I could only learn how to "be a woman" from women. I learned how to be THIS woman; the one that I am. Couldn't that be enough for everyone? And if it isn't - why?

 

It should be enough for everyone, but likely it isn't. Some people are likely to need more guidance than most. From where will likely vary between each individual. Indeed, one shouldn't have to prove their gender, possibly the perceived need to do so may arise from peer pressure as well as insecurity. My struggle has always been on a subconscious level, a fear of my own power. Perhaps in my more recent years I started to equate it to being afraid of my manhood, or not being comfortable with. Had I been around more males who were more assured and experienced in life, maybe it would have been different? Who knows, but in the last 6 months, I have become more than comfortable with the man that I am and who I am becoming. And I don't necessarily believe that I should prioritize my masculine energy over any feminine energy that I may embody, and that traits that arise from both should be fused to create a more rounded and multidynamic individual.

 

I think people are simply afraid to be individuals in some levels, and as such, cling onto ideals to give them a semblance of structure to their lives and where they are going.

 

 

 

Ah, but this is more of men deciding the measure of success based on their easiest venue. If you are a heterosexual man, you will be sexually seeking female partners partially due to a biological imperative. That is to say, an activity you predominantly do of free will, but not entirely of free will. So too do women do this. Funny though, there is little room for women to be proud of gaining sexual approval from men in the same fashion. Instead they are given room for pride in gaining the same sexual approval from only a few men. In what way is this a necessity for women if the the opposite is really true for men? Other ways of succeeding as a man are - what exactly? What ways in life do men show they are men that women CAN NOT also do?

 

I wouldn't know. I have never been of the belief that because one is a woman that she cannot do what a man does. Perhaps a man embodies power more than a woman does purely by virtue of being male, but I feel that masculinity is what people would more readily associate with power and surely a woman who embodies masculinity more than most men would be as powerful as a man?

 

I'd say that people would more equate succeeding as a man has a lot to do with power. Power is something that people crave, or are simply afraid of. Some are simply nonchalant about it. My personal interest in power is not linked to dominion, rather to the redistribution of power to others, as to empower themselves.

 

Sexual approval is perhaps what drives threads like these IMO. I admit, I am focusing more on the men who feel they struggle in this area. It is of more interest to me, given my current datelessness. Not due to any angst I have, as this has been reconciled, at least a little while before joining this forum, but more due to intrigue with regards to men who, unlike me, do hold much angst about the situation.

 

Define what it is to be a man. You may not rely as heavily as other men on being the opposite of a general sense of feminine traits. I don't have a problem with the concept of defining myself without feeling the need to expect the same out of every other woman. You might feel the same about it for yourself. I get the sense that that is true for you too from this:

 

It is true. I am more than comfortable with facets of myself that other men would either balk at or be torn about if they embodied such traits. Being emotional seems to be something that men are torn about. They are extreme in that they are either emotionally repressed or highly sensitive. There is no stability or acceptance of their emotional lives. I find women are better at this than men, in my own observations. Relying on being the opposite of feminine is almost futile in my opinion, as even the most manly man will have feminine traits within him that he must reconcile in order to evolve as a human being.

 

But clearly there are many people out their who need more propping up. They can't just define themselves and be done with it. They need to believe what they are is an ideal all should be as thought they don't just wake up and behave how is most convenient for them - nope they are ubermensch or uberfrau. We see it all the time in threads where people pick apart the behavior of someone and call into question their validity of their gender as thought it is something beyond it. They often confuse gender with sexual orientation.

 

Yes I have noticed this . As much as I believe in augmenting your character to your benefit, I wouldn't encourage someone to do so at the expense of their core identity and character. It would leave them more confused. So I understand this, where posters will enforce an ideal rather than simply provide outlets or suggestions.

 

 

Could it be possible that you, for lack of male role models, have less angst over defining yourself as a man because you didn't have the slice of it that brings heavy pressure to fit into an antiquated and counter productive masculine ideal? You may not have had the benefit of as many men teaching you their individual skill set, but you were also not held back by any that would be of the gotta be like me the ubermensch types. Is this a possible benefit no one saw coming and few dare to admit to? That the kind of men that will breath pressure to not show a single trace of "feminine" quality onto younger generations of men can actually be a detriment to the success of those younger generations of men?

 

It's likely because I was a weird kid, and I was always aware of being different. I cursed my autism before, but many times I questioned whether it was a blessing in disguise, as though it was a karmic debt that I had to pay in order to grow. As a result, my personal progression was completely under my control to a large extent. I learned from a young age how to be able to do things that I shouldn't even have been able to do. So being a capable individual first, and then a truly capable man has been a progression that I have had to make on my own. So you're probably right that my individual skill set hasn't been held back. I am more in tune with my individuality that a lot of people however, so I can't vouch for fellow men of my age.

 

I would agree that this is a potential evolution that nobody would see coming, and perhaps it scares people who fear the unknown, or fear the breaking of taboos that give structure to their lives.

 

At least for myself, it's not completely doubtless that even if I had more male presence in my life that I would have progressed any differently.

 

I grew up in a two parent family...parents have had a long and successful marriage, but I'm not aware of my father ever having given my older brother dating advice. Or, indeed, of my brother asking him for advice. In fact as far as I know, I'm the only one in the family my brother ever discussed that kind of thing with....being of the same generation. Mainly, though, I think he discussed things like that with his friends.

 

How usual is it for young guys to discuss dating and relationships with their fathers? I know Hollywood presents these idealised father/son relationships where all sorts of "son, it's time for you to learn how to be a man" talks go on...but how true to life is that?

 

What I mean is, have men really been ruined by feminism, distanced from their fathers etc....or are a lot of people hooked on some old movie inspired vision of a past that might not bear much resemblance to how things ever were for most people?

 

Really interesting post. I don't think men have been ruined by feminism at all. I mean, apart from biased courtroom dramas that seem to be popping up a lot. Really though, I gained a lot of advice about growth from my peers rather than male role models. In fact, I often turned to my YOUNGER brothers for advice at times. They were more active, outgoing and more masculine than I was, so they had more exciting lives.

 

I never discuss relationships with my dad. The most he says to me is that I should never try to understand a woman because it's impossible. He's always done well with women, so I suppose it works for him . It won't do for me however. I guess that it's not so much the discussing relationships or dating with their fathers, but more the father leading by example. Seeing him in action can rub off on the child. The more I am around my own father, the more I find myself turning into him every day . I am even doing the same mannerisms and talking the same, and it can't just be because I'm also echolalic!

[joystickd]

Look at it like this most of my friends that are in the streets had a lack of father figure so the drug dealer, crips and GDs became their examples of manhood. Like I said before I am not ignoring the role of mothers but mothers have different roles. Its not feminism that is a problem but a lack in this day in time of clear defined roles in relationships.

[Woggle]

Also look at many women who seem incapable of having a healthy relationship with a man and many of them did not have a positive father figure in their life.

[dasein]

What is NAMBLA?

 

This wasn't properly answered. NAMBLA, North American Man Boy Love Association, is a -purported- extremist group of pedophile nutters with no political clout whatsoever that gets way more press than it should, and there's no reason at all for including references to it in a thread such as this. It is commonly woven into feminist "abuse industry" advocacy with general misandric intent. There's even a chance it is a complete sham, purposeful misinformation used as a convenient boogeyman by the abuse industry.

[Woggle]

Women are also just as caught up on gender roles as men are. Try suggesting to many women that they split the bill or make the first move or do something that men are normally thought to and see far you get. I hear many women complaining about having to be the man in the relationship. Gender roles tend to matter as much to many women as they do to men.

 

Also many men have an issue with feminism because we know damn well that many who call themselves feminists are not really interested in equality. They simply want to turn things around on men and be the new oppressors. Men are not stupid and we can tell how many of them really feel.

[udolipixie]

This wasn't properly answered. NAMBLA, North American Man Boy Love Association, is a -purported- extremist group of pedophile nutters with no political clout whatsoever that gets way more press than it should, and there's no reason at all for including references to it in a thread such as this. It is commonly woven into feminist "abuse industry" advocacy with general misandric intent. There's even a chance it is a complete sham, purposeful misinformation used as a convenient boogeyman by the abuse industry.

'

 

I highly doubt it's a complete sham as pedophiles, child molesters, and supporters do have their organizations and many concepts that some perceive as extremist/radical have their organizations. I do think many pedophiles/molesters who like for age of consent laws to vanish so they have freedom to pursue what they consider a natural healthy sexual orientation. Again telling how is misandric or feminist in intent if it's anything remotely negative involving the male gender that doesn't come with the disclosure that it's only a miniscule minority . The likely reason NAMBLA is woven into any group's abuse industry isn't some male victim card as not about guys rather it's about pedophiles, child molesters, and their supporters.

 

It wasn't properly answered to you and others who think as you and there is a reason for including references to this:

I'm going to ask you a question, it might sound silly but I'm curious: Do you think of masculinity as bad?

As for your curiousity I don't think of masculinity as bad as it's generally defined as 'possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a man'. It's a concept and things such as concepts/groups aren't good or bad to me unless it's definition is what I see as hurting children or animals. So masculinity isn't bad to me as I see no hurting children or animals, NAMBLA is bad to me as I see child molesters as hurting children.

What is NAMBLA?