who will you worship God or Satan?

[KathyM]

One thing I always found interesting--and somewhat humorous--was when Christ was offered a person's testimony or allegiance, he declined it because it said "he did not need the testimony of man because he knew what was in man". No offense, but God doesn't need our pathetic testimony. He does what he wants and doesn't owe anyone an explanation. God isn't subject to our "proof".

God doesn't NEED anything from us, but He does want us to testify to others about Him. He has called us to testify so that others will come to know Him. But He knows very well that some will have a hardened heart and not be willing to open their mind to His message. Fortunately, many are willing to receive His message and are open minded enough to consider it.

[M30USA]

God doesn't NEED anything from us, but He does want us to testify to others about Him. He has called us to testify so that others will come to know Him. But He knows very well that some will have a hardened heart and not be willing to open their mind to His message. Fortunately, many are willing to receive His message and are open minded enough to consider it.

 

Yes. I think we are talking about two different things. I was talking about logical, philosophical proof of God. You are talking about personal testimony and spreading the Gospel.

[quickjoe]

I venture to say, no argument I can give you will convince you of anything.

You won't know until you try.

You have your mind made up, have hardened your heart, and closed your eyes to the possibility that something may exist (God), which you currently cannot perceive with your own limited senses.

This is quite rude, wrong, and unnecessary in civil discussion. Please don't presume to tell people what is going on in their own minds.

1/3 of the world's population do accept the diciples' eye witness accounts as proof. That is proof enough for me...

That means that 2/3 don't. I set the burden of proof a little higher than "1 in 3 people believe it", and if you can't see why this is a terrible argument for something then I honestly don't know what to say.

[KathyM]

You won't know until you try.

 

Are you saying you'd consider the possibility that God exists? Or do you just like to argue and are determined to try to disprove whatever I say? If the answer is the latter, then I'm wasting my time.

 

This is quite rude, wrong, and unnecessary in civil discussion. Please don't presume to tell people what is going on in their own minds.

 

I'm interpreting your intent, based on your posts. You post nothing on this message board except attacks against Christianity, and seem to have a problem with the fact that some believe in it. I think what I said in light of that is not out of line.

 

That means that 2/3 don't. I set the burden of proof a little higher than "1 in 3 people believe it", and if you can't see why this is a terrible argument for something then I honestly don't know what to say.

90% of the world's population believe in God or a higher power. There is some difference of opinion as to whether Christ is the Son of God, with 33% of the population believing that He is. I guess my point is, that when 90% of the world's population believe in God, many of whom are highly educated, don't you think there's a possibility that you could be wrong when you say there is no god? Consider the possibility that you could be wrong, and the other 90% are right.

[quickjoe]

Are you saying you'd consider the possibility that God exists? Or do you just like to argue and are determined to try to disprove whatever I say? If the answer is the latter, then I'm wasting my time.

I am open to any possibility, so long as it at least manages not to violate logic or evidence. I care about truth, so if somebody can make a compelling case for something then I am all ears.

 

I do not, however, simply take things at face value. I suspect this will not be acceptable for you, but you are more than welcome to make a liar of me. Okay, here's a quick litmus test. I will take the remainder of this post as your first argument for the existence of god:

90% of the world's population believe in God or a higher power. There is some difference of opinion as to whether Christ is the Son of God, with 33% of the population believing that He is. I guess my point is, that when 90% of the world's population believe in God, many of whom are highly educated, don't you think there's a possibility that you could be wrong when you say there is no god? Consider the possibility that you could be wrong, and the other 90% are right.

Hypothetically, I'm happy to admit I could be wrong about things for which I'm in the 90% majority. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong about things that 100% of humans believe. All knowledge is provisional. It's possible I'm just a brain in a vat somewhere.

 

But hypotheticals are just the start, and appeals to popularity and authority are rightly considered logical fallacies. It doesn't matter if 99% of people disagree with me, what matters is what reason(s) they can give. To further discredit this particular appeal to numbers, consider that religions are mostly a matter of geography and society. The US is mostly Christian and continues to be so, generation after generation. However the majority of Indians are Hindu (80% according to a 2001 census), and as before, continue to be so, generation after generation. Religion is just something that is passed on to generation after generation. It's not as though the majority of people reach the conclusion that god exists based on their own observation and reasoning; it's taught to them and instilled into them as children. This is the majority case. Some people either acquire or lose it later in life, others jump from one to the other, but most don't; they stick with what they were taught for a variety of reasons.

 

That aside, arguments stand and fall on their own merits. I await yours.

 

PS - Furthermore, let me turn this around on you. Are you open to the possibility that god does not exist? Is there anything for which you'd be willing to stake your belief on? Is there any test of your beliefs that could potentially invalidate them?

 

If the answer is "no" to any and all of the above questions, then please tell me why you expect more open-mindedness of me than you are prepared to give?

[TaraMaiden]

For something to exist or occur, does NOT depend on your understanding of it. Leave her alone!

 

No, you're right.

It depends on direct evidence, tangible proof and demonstrable definition.

If we do not have these, then for something to exist or occur only in someone's Mind or heart, is very definitely questionable, and a matter of conjecture.

 

We've had this discussion before. Something either exists or it doesn't. The fact that there is no current proof that satisfies some people of its existence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

Yes, we - that is, you and I - have had this discussion before, but as my response was not addressed at you, i really don't see the point of your comment....

 

....Someday, you will get the proof that you are asking for, and that proof will not be deniable by anyone.

Nah. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Taking the entire history of the world into consideration, if god has not seen fit to actually provide us all with proof up to now (and goodness knows he's had plenty of suitable opportunities) I very much doubt that 'someday' that proof will ever be forthcoming.

I think, all said and done, it would actually have been a very good strategic move to provide that proof before now.

But doubtless you will tell me this is all a prophesy and part of God's Great Plan - until then, he's quite willing to sit back and watch the evil man can do to mankind's innocents, without intervening or calling a halt to all the huge, inhuman atrocities, because that's not on his schedule.

And woe betide anything that might interfere with that.

 

People are prosecuted and imprisoned for not intervening in matters they clearly should have intervened in.

It's called Gross Negligence.

[thatone]

90% of the world's population believe in God or a higher power. There is some difference of opinion as to whether Christ is the Son of God, with 33% of the population believing that He is. I guess my point is, that when 90% of the world's population believe in God, many of whom are highly educated, don't you think there's a possibility that you could be wrong when you say there is no god? Consider the possibility that you could be wrong, and the other 90% are right.

 

A majority believed that the evil spirits in cats caused the black plague. They killed cats en masse to get rid of "evil". Meanwhile there were no cats to kill the rats that bore the fleas that were the real source of the plague.

 

And that's just one of a multitude of examples of how your imaginary god and his church killed millions that otherwise might have lived.

 

All by the same logic you just used...someone made it up, most people believed it, everyone suffered for it.

 

I'm truly optimistic about not very many things, but one that I am optimistic about is how far better off mankind will be when christianity and islam are nothing but sparsely populated cults that adults laugh at and children have never heard of.

 

What a great day that will be...

[KathyM]

I am open to any possibility, so long as it at least manages not to violate logic or evidence. I care about truth, so if somebody can make a compelling case for something then I am all ears.

 

I do not, however, simply take things at face value. I suspect this will not be acceptable for you, but you are more than welcome to make a liar of me. Okay, here's a quick litmus test. I will take the remainder of this post as your first argument for the existence of god:

 

Hypothetically, I'm happy to admit I could be wrong about things for which I'm in the 90% majority. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong about things that 100% of humans believe. All knowledge is provisional. It's possible I'm just a brain in a vat somewhere.

 

But hypotheticals are just the start, and appeals to popularity and authority are rightly considered logical fallacies. It doesn't matter if 99% of people disagree with me, what matters is what reason(s) they can give. To further discredit this particular appeal to numbers, consider that religions are mostly a matter of geography and society. The US is mostly Christian and continues to be so, generation after generation. However the majority of Indians are Hindu (80% according to a 2001 census), and as before, continue to be so, generation after generation. Religion is just something that is passed on to generation after generation. It's not as though the majority of people reach the conclusion that god exists based on their own observation and reasoning; it's taught to them and instilled into them as children. This is the majority case. Some people either acquire or lose it later in life, others jump from one to the other, but most don't; they stick with what they were taught for a variety of reasons.

 

That aside, arguments stand and fall on their own merits. I await yours.

 

PS - Furthermore, let me turn this around on you. Are you open to the possibility that god does not exist? Is there anything for which you'd be willing to stake your belief on? Is there any test of your beliefs that could potentially invalidate them?

 

If the answer is "no" to any and all of the above questions, then please tell me why you expect more open-mindedness of me than you are prepared to give?

So what type of evidence are you looking for, exactly? Eye witness accounts? There is that. The recordings of the Disciples who were eye witnesses, as well as many people who personally experienced God's miracles in their lives. Would you require being able to see God with your own eyes and hear Him with your own ears? That time will come, but unfortunately, by then it will be too late for you.

 

I'm always interested in acquiring new information, but I don't believe any new information is coming along that is going to change my religious beliefs. I've had too much personal experience with God's miracles and answers to prayer to be able to deny that He exists.

[d'Arthez]

I say: I see a pink elephant.

 

Joe says: I know someone said they had seen a pink elephant.

 

KathyM says: Pink elephants therefore must exist.

[William]

Let's let this one cool off.... civility and respect and all that good treatment of other humans and stuff. Back to it later.