Christians who have rocked the world: fighting against slavery

[Eddie Edirol]

This thread has become worthless.

 

Just like most of the religious threads where the OP bails on the thread because of lack of skills to prove her point.

[FredRutherford]

Great. Religious people have killed people. Atheists have killed people.

 

This thread has become worthless.

Someone throws out the Nazi comparison, indicating weak intellect, yet others are supposed to give that a pass?

 

Just like most of the religious threads where the OP bails on the thread because of lack of skills to prove her point.

More LS humility.

The OP does fine IMO.

[FredRutherford]

And you're trying to ignore a lot of peaceful, caring atheists who helped fight slavery by saying christianity is responsible. Christians owned slaves too. If fighting slavery way something Christianity was responsible for, none would have owned slaves.

 

Thanks for playing along and helping me make that point.

Am certain atheists helped in the fight against slavery, as well as owned slaves (a common practice, remember, atheists are no better than others) but understand atheism represents a very small fraction of the population.

 

According to pollsters, atheists account for only 4% of the U.S. populace and maybe 10% of world population.

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God

 

QUOTE:

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God

[d'Arthez]

Now, who mentioned the Nazis first in this thread?

 

Tell that to the Jews and Christians who were forced to leave their homes in Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.

And Communist China which murders infant girls.

 

According to Gallup in 2006 from the article you quoted:

73% Convinced God exists

14% God probably exists, little doubt

5% God probably exists, lots of doubt

4% Not sure

3% God does not exist

2% No Opinion

 

According to the article itself, 19-23% are influenced by Pascal's Wager.

[TaraMaiden]

Highly inflammatory and once again, false information.

 

According to biographies I've viewed on A&E and Bio, Hitler's regime was based on the occult.

Which does not, in and of itself, exclude Christian thinking.

Exorcism is officially sanctioned by the RC Papal seat.

 

 

 

So what?

Shall we list all the infamous atheists?

 

Stalin- murdered millions

Lenin

Chairman Mao- murdered millions

Pol Pot

Jeffery Dahmer was during his killings

Ted Kaczynski- Unabomber

Ted Bundy- serial killer

The Columbine shooters

 

'all'...?

9 of them?

Impressive list, I must say.

[FredRutherford]

Now' date=' who mentioned the Nazis first in this thread?[/quote']

 

Sorry, referencing historical facts doesn't incite argument, as did another poster who displayed religious bigotry.

The nazi party wasn't secular, it was christian. Hitler's christianity is no different than mel gibson's.

Just as atheists here are never shy to point out past Christian abuses, am not gonna give non-Christians a pass for the murders and wrongdoings they've committed.

 

Sorry if I point out how murderous regimes led by atheists hold a tad more significance than a movie actor's personal problems.

[d'Arthez]

Sorry, referencing historical facts doesn't incite argument, as did another poster who displayed religious bigotry.

It is also historical fact that the Nazis drew support from conservative Christians, and anti-semitism was rife amongst conservative Christians, both in Germany as well as Tsarist and Stalinist Russia. Or does it only count when the perpetrators are atheists?

[quickjoe]

Assuming we could somehow conclusively demonstrate whether Hitler was a Christian or otherwise, I'd really like to know what argument that actually settles. Because all I can think of is a resounding "so what?".

 

Is either position invalidated or discredited by Hitler having held it? Is Christianity false because Hitler was one, or vice versa? He was also, by reports, vegetarian and loved animals. Are they tarred with guilt by association too? I can't see how this is anything other than a pointless waste of time for all involved.

 

Remind me what this thread is even about.

[FredRutherford]

It is also historical fact that the Nazis drew support from conservative Christians' date=' and anti-semitism was rife amongst conservative Christians, both in Germany as well as Tsarist and Stalinist Russia. Or does it only count when the perpetrators are atheists?[/quote']

Yes, I know many conservatives erred in supporting the wrong things.

"Liberals" erred as well in their support of Hitler.

 

In predominantly secular and atheistic-leaning socialist Europe, anti-semitism is all the rage.

Many there have rage against the Jews.

 

Be careful when trying to slur others for past sins.

[d'Arthez]

In predominantly secular and atheistic-leaning socialist Europe, anti-semitism is all the rage.

Many there have rage against the Jews.

 

Be careful when trying to slur others for past sins.

You obviously have little idea of what is going on in Europe.

[FredRutherford]

You obviously have little idea of what is going on in Europe.

No, have heard Jews discuss the issue in Europe, which is becoming increasingly anti-semetic and anti-Israel.

[FredRutherford]

So what?

Shall we list all the infamous atheists?

 

Stalin- murdered millions

Lenin

Chairman Mao- murdered millions

Pol Pot

Jeffery Dahmer was during his killings

Ted Kaczynski- Unabomber

Ted Bundy- serial killer

The Columbine shooters

 

'all'...?

9 of them?

Impressive list, I must say.

Atheists account for a tiny fraction of the U.S. and world population, so a listing of notorious atheists would likely be small.

 

As you're nit-picking on grammar, the original posting stated "Shall we list ALL?" -- that doesn't necessarily mean what follows would be "all."

[betterdeal]

In predominantly secular and atheistic-leaning socialist Europe

 

This would be the same Europe that is home to the Vatican City, the Pope, the leaders of the Anglican church, where all state religions where they exist are Christian, the Greek and Russian orthodox churches and the Turin shroud?

 

You mean that Europe, the actual one that exists, or the imaginary one you plucked out of your arse?

[betterdeal]

Christianity was so complete and widespread it's easy to pick out good guys and bad guys and say "hey, look, he's a Christian and he's good/bad".

 

The church's stranglehold on intellectual thought held back scientific discovery and philsophical advancement. Einstein was a Christian and said "God doesn't play with dice". Many Christians opposed slavery. Many other Christians had slaves. The Christian who wrote "All men are born equal" had slaves and had them in more way than one. Christians invented modern medicine. And napalm.

 

What advanced us into the modern age was the printing press, gunpowder and the protestant revolution, and only gunpowder was approved of by the church.

[FredRutherford]

This would be the same Europe that is home to the Vatican City, the Pope, the leaders of the Anglican church, where all state religions where they exist are Christian, the Greek and Russian orthodox churches and the Turin shroud?

 

You mean that Europe, the actual one that exists, or the imaginary one you plucked out of your arse?

Though there are Christians, Europe is a secular state.

Socialists and leftists, who hate Christianity and scream when someone tries to practice or express their religion, rule the roost.

 

It's "politically incorrect" to discuss Christianity, as evidenced by EU leaders once interviewed on Bill O'Reilly's Fox News program.

Bill said something about values and faith, and one of the smug politicians responded,

"...We in Europe don't discuss religion. We're so over that...."

 

Church attendance is very low and many churches are closing.

Edited June 14, 2012 by FredRutherford

[betterdeal]

Though there are Christians, Europe is a secular state.

Socialists and leftists, who hate Christianity and scream when someone tries to practice or express their religion, rule the roost.

 

America is a secular state. Do you hate the American constitution for its Christianohatred too?

[d'Arthez]

Though there are Christians, Europe is a secular state.

Europe a secular state? And the capital of Nevada is Washington DC.

[FredRutherford]

 

The church's stranglehold on intellectual thought held back scientific discovery and philsophical advancement. Einstein was a Christian and said "God doesn't play with dice".

That is true and like many, wish it never happened.

The papacy took-over many things and leading Italian families controlled the popes, who during the Middle Ages were often corrupt.

 

Popes had mistresses and amassed political power.

But even before that corrupt era, one pope got upset a tiny sect in France espoused a heretical belief that Jesus was God, but not man, so he ordered the area's princes to go out and murder them.

 

But using political power to silence and kill opposition isn't limited to corrupt church officials.

 

For every atheist who wants to rub those kind of atrocities in Christians' faces, please point to a major contemporary Christian leader advocating or conducting similar injustices.

 

 

Many Christians opposed slavery. Many other Christians had slaves. The Christian who wrote "All men are born equal" had slaves and had them in more way than one. Christians invented modern medicine. And napalm.

"Some" would be a more accurate descriptor.

 

What advanced us into the modern age was the printing press, gunpowder and the protestant revolution, and only gunpowder was approved of by the church.

Agreed.

Church and political leaders wanted to silence the church reformers and the church itself eventually reformed its corrupt practices.

[FredRutherford]

but the people who compiled and edited the bible you read had slaves.

 

the early roman church even owned slaves.

 

there are writings from augustine that justify it.

Proof please.

Not just things picked straight out of the air.

 

So now Christians are responsible for slavery in the world? (Responding to previous poster, not the OP).

 

Last I read, God himself freed the Isrealites from years of slavery. Last I read, Abraham Lincoln, who was a very religious Christian man, freed the slaves in the U.S. There may have been times when the culture or climate of a country was pro-slavery, but Christians have often led the fight against slavery and opression.

 

True.

Like the Christians in Germany (Corrie Ten Boom), the black churches with many supportive whites helping slaves board the Underground Railroad and the many who tried to influence legislation to end the horrible practice condoned by secular governments around the world.

Just like the civil rights movement.

 

Interesting how this kind of thing is often overlooked by the so-called enlightened atheists who seem bent on tarnishing a religion (and its adherents) they so detest.

Edited June 14, 2012 by FredRutherford

[Nohbody]

How badly does everyone want to be right? Because that's all this looks like. Fighting for the chance to say "See, I told ya! Nyanny Nyanny Nyah!"

 

This no longer has anything to do with the original question, any belief or lack thereof, and everything to do with righteous ego-gratification.

 

In my opinion.

[thatone]

Proof please.

Not just things picked straight out of the air.

 

 

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Philosophers justifying slavery

 

i don't see how it's such a hard thing to grasp. augustine being at the very least a very major, if not the, forefather of the idea of christian guilt and the fall of man and all that being used to justify every evil under the sun that men do.

 

 

True.

Like the Christians in Germany (Corrie Ten Boom), the black churches with many supportive whites helping slaves board the Underground Railroad and the many who tried to influence legislation to end the horrible practice condoned by secular governments around the world.

Just like the civil rights movement.

 

Interesting how this kind of thing is often overlooked by the so-called enlightened atheists who seem bent on tarnishing a religion (and its adherents) they so detest.

 

meanwhile just a few years ago pat robertson was sitting next to the uncle tom on his own TV show calling black people "the cursed race".

 

give it a rest, you only need to delude yourself. you're not having much luck with everyone else anyway.

[BetheButterfly]

Just exactly how is she doing this? Is she not entitled to communicate her beliefs? She's in the right forum of LS to do this.

 

Hi Pure in heart

 

I haven't read all the replies... I've been busy with my parents coming to visit, with my work and activities.

 

I'm not sure if your reply is defending me or someone else, but thanks for standing up for whoever you are standing up for. (I will go back and read everything but I don't have much time.)

 

Basically this thread is to show that Theists, in particular in this case- Christians, have and do contribute positively to society. Now, this doesn't mean that Atheists or people of other believes do not contribute. There are many great Atheists and people of other beliefs who have done and do great things for society, same as many Theists. This thread is not to descredit Atheists or any other group of people, but rather to show that Christian Theists have and do help people. Making slavery illegal in the UK, as well as in the USA, is just one way that many Christians in the past have helped society, and I am grateful that slavery is illegal today!!!

 

Martin Luther King, Jr., a Christian, is also a man I very much respect and appreciate in his impact on the USA! He and many other Christian people of different ethnicities helped people in the USA understand that segregation is wrong. I love his "I Have a Dream" speech!!!

 

American Rhetoric: Martin Luther King, Jr. - I Have a Dream

Edited June 16, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Remove copy and paste formatting

[BetheButterfly]

Britain ended slavery in 1833, the French ended it in their colonies in 1848 the US didn't end it until 1865.

 

Abraham Lincoln didn't play a significant role in the first two.

 

But I did mention "Political". Abraham Lincoln could be placed in that category.

 

And let's not forget his contribution to the eradication of vampires in America.

 

Hello Nohbody,

 

I do think it's cool that Christians, including Quakers and William Wilberforce, were instrumental in Britian making slavery illegal. Quakers and other Christians were instrumental in the USA making slavery illegal too. I have no idea how it came about in France though.. that'd be interesting to study.

 

The Christians who were (and are) against slavery do understand Jesus' teachings, including Luke 6:31, I think.

 

Lol at the vampire joke... just saw that ha ha

[BetheButterfly]

Getting back to this planet...

 

OP, it's hard to tell exactly what the point is that you're trying to make, but I think you are trying to say that it's thanks to Christianity that slavery no longer exists. This, I think, is, at best, ludicrous.

 

I am saying that many Christians did greatly help society by striving to make slavery illegal. It is obvious that slavery sadly still exists, in spite of the fact that it is illegal in many countries. I have never claimed slavery to be extinct, though it would be wonderful if it were.

 

As evidence, you cite:

1. The Golden Rule. Well, newsflash: Jesus did not invent the golden rule. I think it's great that you follow it yourself, and certainly many other individual Christians aspire to it as well, but it's not in any way uniquely Christian. It appears, in fact, in pretty much any ancient culture for which we have records. Supposing that we could attribute the abolition of slavery to the golden rule (and I don't think we can even do that), that would not assign attribution to Christianity.

Again, I did not say that Jesus invented the golden rule. I merely quoted what Jesus said, which people consider to be "the golden rule". Luke 6:31 is an awesome and powerful quote of Jesus, even though it's a small quote. If more people who call themselves Christians lived in obedience to this, you can be sure there would be far less rape, torture, stealing, persecuting others, and killing.

 

2. Paulian scriptures which, at best, encourage the freeing of one particular slave he happens to like. I won't insult your intelligence by quoting what he has to say about slavery in general, which hardly does your argument much good.

It is important to note that many people who became Christians were slaves... Paul most definitely did not want to start a riot. "Christianity" was already in hot water and hated... teaching obedience to masters (as well as obedience to parents) was to not give Christianity a bad name, basically.

 

3. Christian abolitionists in the enlightenment period. Too bad the enlightenment happened about 1800 years AFTER Jesus. Had Christianity itself been a major factor in eliminating slavery, then you'd think that there certainly would have been a groundswell of abolition long before then, say perhaps some time in the first 18 centuries of its founding. But there was never any such groundswell until the Enlightenment, which was very much a response to medieval Christian mores. Yes, certain of the abolitionists of the enlightenment period were Christians, but for each one of them, there was also a Christian enslaver. Had Christianity itself been responsible for abolition, then it would have been impossible for Christians to hold slaves for, you know, that first 1800 years of it.

After Rome destroyed Jerusalem, Gentiles basically took over the group of believers in Jesus, and especially during Emperor Constantine's time, Christianity adopted Hellenistic and Roman attributes, which is a different study in itself.

 

However, as more and more people began to read the Bible for themselves, many began to learn from Jesus' teachings accounted in the apostles/disciples' writings, and this did indeed help influence their belief that enslaving humans is a bad thing to do, that does not follow Luke 6:31 or Matthew 22:39.

 

William Wilberforce emphasizes love when he fought (nonviolently) against slavery:

 

“We can scarcely indeed look into any part of the sacred volume without meeting abundant proofs, that it is the religion of the Affections which God particularly requires. Love, Zeal, Gratitude, Joy, Hope, Trust, are each of them specified; and are not allowed to us as weaknesses, but enjoined on us as our bounden duty, and commended to us as our acceptable worship.”

― William Wilberforce, Real Christianity: The Book That Helped End Slavery In England

 

I love this quote of his too!

 

"“Is it not the great end of religion, and, in particular, the glory of Christianity, to extinguish the malignant passions; to curb the violence, to control the appetites, and to smooth the asperities of man; to make us compassionate and kind, and forgiving one to another; to make us good husbands, good fathers, good friends; and to render us active and useful in the discharge of the relative social and civil duties? ”

― William Wilberforce

 

William Wilberforce Quotes (Author of Real Christianity)

 

Anyways, I would love to read more replies and answer, but household duties beckon me to do them sigh.

[FredRutherford]

Originally Posted by quickjoe

There is not one written record of Jesus or Paul saying anything against the institution of slavery.

 

The epistle of Philemon is not exactly an anti-slavery sentiment, nor is Titus 2. I suggest the OP and others read up on a more balanced view of history: Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So?

 

Slavery wasn't eradicated until the 19th Century, led, BTW, by compassionate Christians.

 

Saudia Arabia legally allowed slavery until 1962.

 

Paul and Jesus also never urged their followers to overthrow dictatorial, brutal, sadistic godless regimes (i.e. Rome) which enslaved and murdered millions.

 

Fact is, there wasn't anything one could do about that.

 

Democratic republics didn't really become common until after 1776, the birth of The Land of the Free.

 

Women, in most parts of the world, didn't get equal rights until the 1920s. In many places, i.e. backwards Africa, women don't have rights and by government consent, have their genitals mutilated.

 

Blacks in the U.S. weren't legally allowed to vote until the 1964 Civil Rights Acts, which, BTW, had more Republican support than Demorats.

 

Most movements to eliminate social ills, slavery, dictatorships, drunkedness, debtors prisons, etc., weren't started until CENTURIES after biblical times.

 

Blaming individuals who lived MILLENIA ago for not urging ending of societal ills is irrational.

Edited March 17, 2013 by FredRutherford