How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

[somedude81]

I really don't get it at all.

 

After all these years of experience and hearing / reading about others, I've only learned what doesn't work.

 

I've learned that chasing a girl who has no interest in you is doomed to failure.

 

That it's basically impossible to actually make somebody like you. Either they do or they don't.

 

Odds are a woman isn't going to fall for a man like which men commonly do. So hoping she'll come around eventually is foolish.

 

If a woman isn't physically attracted to you, nothing will ever happen.

 

So with those out of the way, how are things supposed to work?

 

From what I gather, two people have to meet and both have to be attracted to each other. Though that's easier said then done since men are more easily 'impressed' then women are. I've also heard that women know in less then a minute if the guy has any possibility for dating/sex, though it may take much longer to get the 'no' out of her, which is just wasted time and energy from the guy. So it basically comes down to luck if the woman considers the guy attractive. And even then more things need to happen.

 

It almost feels like you're throwing dice if the woman is attracted to you or not. If you're a good looking guy or really know how to play the game, the two dice only need to add up to five. And for somebody like me, I need them to hit at least 10. Which hasn't happened yet and I'm turning 31 in three months

 

So is that it? The only way dating works is to ask out lots and lots of girls till one decides you're good enough to F ? Which basically means that my own preferences are nothing more than a hindrance.

 

Yeah, I'm sure if I wanted to, or actually didn't care at all, I could end up with a woman I have zero attraction to, have zero things in common with and can barely stand her personality; but because she liked me, it was the only that mattered.

 

Please tell me there is something better.

[thatone]

you're making it way harder than it is, but then again you're used to that....

 

i can tell in a glance whether i want to have sex with a girl or not. men are no different in that regard.

[irin]

i really dont have any good insight, but i have in the past rejected guys that were very attractive.

[pteromom]

You are 30? You are entering an age where the women are more mature and looking for more than a pretty boy.

 

I disagree that if a woman isn't initially attracted to you, there is no chance. Guys become more or less attractive based on what they do.

 

A guy who can play and laugh and let loose and have fun = +3 on the 1-10 scale.

 

A guy who likes animals and kids = +2

 

A guy who actually listens when I talk and who is able to engage in REAL conversation with me? +2

 

A guy who is respectful and opens doors for me? +2

 

So a guy who is average can escalate to gorgeous depending on what he shows me of himself.

 

And most ladies are the same. We all have our lists - the list of characteristics we are looking for. Sure, for some ladies, the list includes a 6-pack, the chin of Brad Pitt, and tall/dark/handsome. But as we mature, we usually learn that guys who are extremely good looking come with their own issues, and we start looking more toward personality, values, and goals, and less toward hairline and muscle definition.

 

You are at the perfect age to find a woman.

 

If you are looking just for sex, that's EASY. You just have to be confident and engage with people. Go to a small bar (not a large club where you can't talk and it's a meat market atmosphere) and laugh and have fun. As people get drunker, if you are engaging with people, you'll notice which women are laughing the loudest and touching you unnecessarily. These are signs that they are open to maybe going home with you, so flirt with them. The key to this is you can't sit in a corner and think about how nobody likes you. That's a self-fulfilling prophesy. You gotta FAKE being confident even if you don't feel it.

 

If you are looking for a LTR, that's harder, because you have to pay a lot more attention to compatibility and shared goals. But it's still possible, and YES - it's a numbers game. You have your list of "dealbreakers", and you go out with as many women as possible. If she checks off a dealbreaker item, you move on to the next one.

 

Your preferences DO matter. Don't ask someone out if there is zero attraction to them. Don't continue dating someone who isn't what you want.

 

It's not easy, but it does require getting out there and trying.

[zengirl]

I've learned that chasing a girl who has no interest in you is doomed to failure.

 

It depends on what you mean by 'no interest.' Chasing a woman who has turned you down or shown signs that she is uncomfortable with your interest is doomed to failure. Chasing a girl who hasn't made up her mind yet is not necessarily. But really "chasing" in dating should never be "chasing" per se. It should be kind of like a game of tag --- you should feel like both people are active, willing participants who understand that at some point, the person gets caught. You have to be able to know the difference between whether she's playing tag or just running away. With YOUNGER women, it is harder to see clear boundaries because they have often not yet become comfortable truly saying, "No, I'm never going to date you" and with less experience you miss the clear signs in what they haven't said.

 

That it's basically impossible to actually make somebody like you. Either they do or they don't.

 

Well, kind of. You can't "make" someone like you, but you can make yourself into a person who is more likable, charismatic, socially adept, etc, etc. All those things work --- but there's no guarantee they'll work on EVERYONE.

 

Odds are a woman isn't going to fall for a man like which men commonly do. So hoping she'll come around eventually is foolish.

 

Hoping a man will come around is just as foolish, so I don't get the gender difference. Expecting and waiting for something that doesn't happen is just a recipe for failure and unhappiness. Women DO sometimes find that they've fallen for someone they know and have ignored, and men DO sometimes find they want to commit after they've said they're looking for something casual, but neither are situations I'd suggest "waiting" for.

 

If a woman isn't physically attracted to you, nothing will ever happen.

 

Right. Though physical attraction, ESPECIALLY for women, is NOT just about looks. Seriously. Looks play a role, of course, but I know women who fall for all kinds of things that aren't visual - charisma, a sexy accent, a sexy job, a big brain, that social ease/everybody's favorite guy thing some guys have, whatever.

 

So with those out of the way, how are things supposed to work?

 

People meet lots of people. They find some of those people to be suitable romantic partners. They use their social skills and social capital, as well as other attractive traits to endeavor to make that happen. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it succeeds and two people feel similarly. Then they use their various skills to attempt to build a relationship --- usually unsuccessfully if it's their first, btw, but eventually you get it right with someone.

 

From what I gather, two people have to meet and both have to be attracted to each other. Though that's easier said then done since men are more easily 'impressed' then women are. I've also heard that women know in less then a minute if the guy has any possibility for dating/sex, though it may take much longer to get the 'no' out of her, which is just wasted time and energy from the guy. So it basically comes down to luck if the woman considers the guy attractive. And even then more things need to happen.

 

Many women know absolute "Nos" in less than a minute. Whether they'll say it depends on their age and assertiveness and so forth. Younger women will say no more readily; older women will judge things less by a cover. More mature people always do. I don't think attraction is "luck" --- it's a set of skills (social skills mostly, but also wit and basic mental health skills and so forth), combined with your physical looks (some of which is luck and some of which is controllable - like style and fitness) and any bonuses, like being an astronaut or something.

 

I don't think many women know "Yes" in less than a minute. It's generally No/Maybe. I think it's generally that way for most men too, especially those looking for serious Rs. They understand they have to get to know the person a bit first before seeing if an R is even possible with their temperament, etc!

Dating is not about efficiency, so "wasted time" doesn't factor in. Besides, that time may have gone towards building some important social facet or skill that helps you the next time, etc.

 

Personally, I think you vastly overestimate the power of looks and underestimate the power of social skills.

[ThaWholigan]

I really don't get it at all.

 

After all these years of experience and hearing / reading about others, I've only learned what doesn't work.

 

There's no surefire way for a dating strategy to work ALL the time. It's like Football. Barcelona are the best offensive team in the world - and got beaten by Chelsea . Not everything will work. You have to find something that's comfortable for you and stick with it, whether it works or not. Have your strategy adjustments ready, but stick to your ethos, whatever it is. You have to find that out for yourself.

 

I've learned that chasing a girl who has no interest in you is doomed to failure.

 

Depends on the lack of interest. If she's neutral, then you should proceed. She's entertaining the idea.

 

That it's basically impossible to actually make somebody like you. Either they do or they don't.

 

If a woman likes you, but she's not too sure on romance, then it's possible that she can change her mind, but it's generally a good idea to pursue other options in the mean time. If you can.

Odds are a woman isn't going to fall for a man like which men commonly do. So hoping she'll come around eventually is foolish.

 

You'd be surprised . It happens.......just don't depend on it.

 

If a woman isn't physically attracted to you, nothing will ever happen.

 

This is true to an extent. If there is nothing she can find that is redeemable about you in an attractive sense, then she is unlikely to want to pursue anything. If you have other attributes that override that, or you are able to carry yourself in a way that accentuates and boosts your physical attractiveness, then she can change her mind.

 

So with those out of the way, how are things supposed to work?

 

Trial and error. Meet people, have fun, see a girl you like, ask for dates, deal with rejection, strengthen your social muscle and repeat cycle till you find a date. Then have more fun.

 

From what I gather, two people have to meet and both have to be attracted to each other. Though that's easier said then done since men are more easily 'impressed' then women are. I've also heard that women know in less then a minute if the guy has any possibility for dating/sex, though it may take much longer to get the 'no' out of her, which is just wasted time and energy from the guy. So it basically comes down to luck if the woman considers the guy attractive. And even then more things need to happen.

 

It almost feels like you're throwing dice if the woman is attracted to you or not. If you're a good looking guy or really know how to play the game, the two dice only need to add up to five. And for somebody like me, I need them to hit at least 10. Which hasn't happened yet and I'm turning 31 in three months

 

Zen girl put it perfectly, "overestimating looks and underestimating social skills" and putting yourself out there. I can't really add anything more than that. I don't want to continue giving you pages of advice and confuse you further. But you really have to stop thinking the game is rigged against you, and thinking you have no chance of improvement. Start to believe in yourself no matter what, even when you fail.

 

People vary, some women will say no quickly, some will think about it then say no and others will even say YES . And the same for men most likely. Don't underestimate that a lot of men can be very discriminating, regardless of their looks.

 

So is that it? The only way dating works is to ask out lots and lots of girls till one decides you're good enough to F ? Which basically means that my own preferences are nothing more than a hindrance.

 

Yeah, I'm sure if I wanted to, or actually didn't care at all, I could end up with a woman I have zero attraction to, have zero things in common with and can barely stand her personality; but because she liked me, it was the only that mattered.

 

Please tell me there is something better.

 

It looks so bleak for you, but that's only because you see it that way. If you reframed it like this:

 

"If I wanted to.....I can ask out lots of girls, till one says yes, then I can have a date with her and have fun and see what she's like. If I'm not feeling, I can move on and ask out other girls. If a girl says no to me, it doesn't matter, there are millions of girls in my city alone. The world is my oyster!".

[Els]

You are 30? You are entering an age where the women are more mature and looking for more than a pretty boy.

 

 

Your preferences DO matter.

 

Yes, but he prefers women in their early 20s.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, but as you said, as people mature they tend to have different requirements.

[fortyninethousand322]

I'll be perfectly honest here. For a lot of people dating is kind of second nature. Like riding a bike or speaking English, things people do everyday pretty easily, but if you have learn at an older age it gets harder and harder.

 

Most people learn dating and sex gradually and piecemeal (graduating from group dates at the mall to one on one movie dates to sleeping over, etc.), mostly when they're young and impulsive and don't have the time nor the inclination to sit and think about it reflectively like you're doing here.

 

You're almost 31. If you truly want to have success dating it will be hard. Like trying to learn Punjabi hard, maybe worse. I'm not going to sugar coat it. You've got to compress about 15-16 years worth of life experience into a very short period of time, and you've got to turn off your brain and stop thinking like you're doing here and just react. I know you're not completely inexperienced, but you're close enough.

[Eddie Edirol]

 

I've learned that chasing a girl who has no interest in you is doomed to failure.

 

Its easy, if you ask a woman for coffee, and if you dont get an enthusiastic Yes, you move on. Also, you dont build up expectations and attachments to asking her out, otherwise you get hurt. That makes you keep trying, which isnt attractive.

If you are initiating communication with her too much, more than she is, you look desperate, that isnt attractive, you know this.

 

That it's basically impossible to actually make somebody like you. Either they do or they don't.

 

This is true. Women know when they look at you if they are really attracted to you. You dont want any less. Then they know by talking to you if they are attracted emotionally. Sometimes it happens the other way around, but I dont deal with women that arent really physically attracted to me, because its just trouble down the line...as I've learned in life, and as we've seen on this board.

 

Odds are a woman isn't going to fall for a man like which men commonly do. So hoping she'll come around eventually is foolish.

 

Thats not true, its usually the women who fall first, because men are the pursuers. So when a man they like finally shows up, the emotions get involved immediately. They dont date for practicality first, at least not the well adjusted women.

 

If a woman isn't physically attracted to you, nothing will ever happen.

It could happen, depending on her agenda, it just wont be fun for either of you. So dont settle for a woman that isnt attracted to you just because shes hot. But generally, if you dont pass the looks test (the degree of looks depends on her preferences) you wont get past date 1, or you will get friend zoned.

 

So with those out of the way, how are things supposed to work?

 

 

You have to do your research. You have to find all the ways that men turn women off, and how to avoid it. You have to learn how to avoid being the nice guy, how to avoid being/looking needy and desperate, theres tons of dating dynamics. You've been here long enough to know that youre not going to get them from anyone here on this forum, you have to do the research on your own. Its very enlightning to say the least.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Eddie Edirol

[ThaWholigan]

You have to do your research. You have to find all the ways that men turn women off, and how to avoid it. You have to learn how to avoid being the nice guy, how to avoid being/looking needy and desperate, theres tons of dating dynamics. You've been here long enough to know that youre not going to get them from anyone here on this forum, you have to do the research on your own. Its very enlightning to say the least.

He has the research - he can get the research - he can go out and do manual research. He's well aware of what's at his disposal, including PUA stuff.

 

All he needs to do above all else is do something. Without thinking about it. Or without thinking he's going to fail, or that he's not going to get anywhere, or that it's too hard, or whatever is stopping him. He has enough info, from various sources, not just here I'd imagine. All left is for him to stop thinking and do.

[pteromom]

You have to find all the ways that men turn women off, and how to avoid it. You have to learn how to avoid being the nice guy, how to avoid being/looking needy and desperate, theres tons of dating dynamics.

 

I think this advice is very good if the goal is to be able to date a large number of women.

 

But if it's about finding ONE woman, the RIGHT woman, you have to be able to set aside worries about being a "nice guy" or looking needy and desperate, and just be yourself, honestly and fully. If you are putting on an act or playing games, the person you are dating isn't getting to know the real you. That's not gonna lead to a successful relationship.

[Dafa]

You are 30? You are entering an age where the women are more mature and looking for more than a pretty boy.

 

I disagree that if a woman isn't initially attracted to you, there is no chance. Guys become more or less attractive based on what they do.

 

A guy who can play and laugh and let loose and have fun = +3 on the 1-10 scale.

 

A guy who likes animals and kids = +2

 

A guy who actually listens when I talk and who is able to engage in REAL conversation with me? +2

 

A guy who is respectful and opens doors for me? +2

 

(...)

 

Heh, while i get your idea of attributing points to these traits, i wonder if they are common to other women. I, like the OP, am 30 and i can assume you are somewhat older? As such, when it comes to the mentality of women in your 30's, i defer to your wisdom... However, i get the feeling you are exacerbating those qualities in detriment of more physical ones. And i'm not talking about changing the values, of course. I'd like to ask you a question: Do you find it rare to find a man with the majority of those traits? In my view, most men i know score at 3 out of those 4 and this is quite critical because, even if it is something that a woman finds extremely important, it is a characteristic shared by both attractive and less attractive men, which once again leaves beauty as the deciding factor.

 

 

If you are looking just for sex, that's EASY. You just have to be confident and engage with people. Go to a small bar (not a large club where you can't talk and it's a meat market atmosphere) and laugh and have fun. As people get drunker, if you are engaging with people, you'll notice which women are laughing the loudest and touching you unnecessarily. These are signs that they are open to maybe going home with you, so flirt with them. The key to this is you can't sit in a corner and think about how nobody likes you. That's a self-fulfilling prophesy. You gotta FAKE being confident even if you don't feel it.

 

Come on, saying: "If you are looking just for sex, that's EASY. You just have to be confident and engage with people" is akin to saying:

"if you are just looking to win a nobel prize, it's EASY. You just have to a fundamental unsolved scientific problem and solve it." The flaw in this phrase is that you are implying that being confident is something easy to be... Don't forget that it's very hard to be confident in yourself when the rejections (in various fields of life) pile up around you... Note: I exaggerated on the nobel bit, but i felt the need to, sorry in advance.

 

The end of the paragraph though... With that i agree. Unfortunately the OP is not good looking enough (apparently) to pull off the "mysterious hot guy in the corner", he'll be just the "silly shy guy in the corner".

At this point, and i talk from (some) experience, if gaining true self-confidence is not something you see yourself being able to do, then fake it. Fake it until you make it.

Start with small things like leaning more towards people when you are talking to them. Greeting them with a steady and firm handshake. Using people's names when you greet them, i.e., instead of "Hi", say "Hi, Vanessa" or "Hi, Jack". Being more assertive in general.

Do it with men too, of course. The point is to make you more at ease with social interactions. And also, your confidence when in a group of men is also noticed by women, or so i'm told. This can surely be confirmed by the ladies around here.

Another thing you can do is throw some small sarcastic jokes when you go get your usual coffee at the usual place. My sense of humour sucks but sometimes it is easy to make a small joke, e.g., you go to a bar with some friends and they take some time deciding what they want while the waitress is waiting, make a small sarcastic joke, even if something like: "these guys, pff, they are always like this", it's crap, but it's something. You won't get laid because of this but i believe it will ease you into being more sociable. There are alot of other situations, most of them are very small in the sense of not being important by themselves, but important when put together.

I can speak in my case that despite my self-evaluation being precisely the same, i can more "naturally fake" (see what i did there!?) some confidence and this is noticed.

[Els]

He has the research - he can get the research - he can go out and do manual research. He's well aware of what's at his disposal, including PUA stuff.

 

All he needs to do above all else is do something. Without thinking about it. Or without thinking he's going to fail, or that he's not going to get anywhere, or that it's too hard, or whatever is stopping him. He has enough info, from various sources, not just here I'd imagine. All left is for him to stop thinking and do.

 

Yep, that is why some of us have asked what he has done to improve his chances, in the last year, even. Understandably, he has not given us an answer, but I see little point in continuously trying to help someone via text when that help is not translating into RL actions at all. It's like trying to learn how to give a blowjob from a book. Someone can read 347893453 books and start 547893955 threads, but if they refuse to try IRL none of the above matters.

[FryFish]

dude, start with any and every girl... and as you get practice playing the game, narrow your aim a little bit at a time...

[ThaWholigan]

Yep, that is why some of us have asked what he has done to improve his chances, in the last year, even. Understandably, he has not given us an answer, but I see little point in continuously trying to help someone via text when that help is not translating into RL actions at all. It's like trying to learn how to give a blowjob from a book. Someone can read 347893453 books and start 547893955 threads, but if they refuse to try IRL none of the above matters.

The problem is that failure puts some people off very easily, much to my chagrin. It annoys me. Somedude says he has asked out a little over 20+ girls in his life. On average that's probably 2 every year since he hit 20. Add to that the lack of a social circle and his job gets harder. And what makes all of that worse is he internalizes every failure and agonizes over it and after than it all goes to hell.

 

He needs to keep trying full stop, and more frequently. Instead of trying a few times and saying it's not gonna work.

 

I don't really wanna harp on though, because I've said it all before, and I run the risk of making it seem like we're all picking on him (which invariably seems to happen an awful lot these days).

[zengirl]

Yep, that is why some of us have asked what he has done to improve his chances, in the last year, even. Understandably, he has not given us an answer, but I see little point in continuously trying to help someone via text when that help is not translating into RL actions at all. It's like trying to learn how to give a blowjob from a book. Someone can read 347893453 books and start 547893955 threads, but if they refuse to try IRL none of the above matters.

 

Very true. There are different type of people in life, and dating is a Doer's game. Someone who gets out there and just GOES for it and does that as their default personality. Those people almost never have dating trouble, and there probably aren't all that many of them on LS. For everyone else, they have to at least take a page from the Doers and learn to act more than they plan, at least sometimes. Dating and success at dating isn't about researching or planning or reading or writing --- it's about getting out there and doing and reaping the rewards of failure, which are lessons, until you find success.

[pteromom]

Heh, while i get your idea of attributing points to these traits, i wonder if they are common to other women. I, like the OP, am 30 and i can assume you are somewhat older? As such, when it comes to the mentality of women in your 30's, i defer to your wisdom... However, i get the feeling you are exacerbating those qualities in detriment of more physical ones. And i'm not talking about changing the values, of course. I'd like to ask you a question: Do you find it rare to find a man with the majority of those traits? In my view, most men i know score at 3 out of those 4 and this is quite critical because, even if it is something that a woman finds extremely important, it is a characteristic shared by both attractive and less attractive men, which once again leaves beauty as the deciding factor.

 

I do find it rare to find guys who can let loose and have fun yet aren't "party guys". Someone who is serious about his career and responsibilities but able to be fun and silly and let loose is HARD to find. But still - those attributes are MY + list. For other ladies, it could be something different. Maybe a woman has a thing for dimples. So an otherwise average guy who smiles with dimples could cause her heart to flip. Or maybe a woman likes a guy who wears nice shoes. So a pair of good shoes would be a +1 for her.

 

The thing is - sure, you could have a great looking guy with good shoes, and an average guy with good shoes, and on the surface, you'd say "Well, all things being equal, she'd pick the better looking guy." But this isn't true. Because attraction is partially about how the other person makes us feel about ourselves. So if Pretty Guy with Great Shoes looks around at other women, talks only about himself, and scoffs at what we say, he gets MINUS POINTS for that. If Average Guy with Great Shoes pays attention to us, compliments us, and makes us feel beautiful, he gets MAJOR PLUS POINTS for that. So looks is NOT the only factor. Sure, it's always a factor. But it's not THE factor.

 

Come on, saying: "If you are looking just for sex, that's EASY. You just have to be confident and engage with people" is akin to saying:

"if you are just looking to win a nobel prize, it's EASY. You just have to a fundamental unsolved scientific problem and solve it."

 

LOL. I get what you are saying. Being a confident person isn't easy when you aren't. I am naturally outgoing, so jumping into a group and being part of the action is pretty easy for me.

 

So rather than saying "Be confident", I'll change it to "feel the fear and do it anyway". Just take the leap. It's easy in a bar setting, because there are always a few people who are happy to be the center of attention. So you just sit with them, make a joke when you think of one, laugh, and have one-on-one conversations with people you are attracted to.

 

Start with small things like leaning more towards people when you are talking to them. Greeting them with a steady and firm handshake. Using people's names when you greet them, i.e., instead of "Hi", say "Hi, Vanessa" or "Hi, Jack". Being more assertive in general.

Do it with men too, of course. The point is to make you more at ease with social interactions. And also, your confidence when in a group of men is also noticed by women, or so i'm told. This can surely be confirmed by the ladies around here.

Another thing you can do is throw some small sarcastic jokes when you go get your usual coffee at the usual place. My sense of humour sucks but sometimes it is easy to make a small joke, e.g., you go to a bar with some friends and they take some time deciding what they want while the waitress is waiting, make a small sarcastic joke, even if something like: "these guys, pff, they are always like this", it's crap, but it's something. You won't get laid because of this but i believe it will ease you into being more sociable. There are alot of other situations, most of them are very small in the sense of not being important by themselves, but important when put together.

 

I agree 100% with everything you wrote here.

[pteromom]

He needs to keep trying full stop, and more frequently. Instead of trying a few times and saying it's not gonna work.

 

Yep, it's all about quantity. If you are applying for a job, you don't send in one resume and then when you don't hear back, sit around pouting that you are unemployable.

 

So why do people do this with dating? If one girl isn't interested, the next girl might be. Or the next one. Or the next one.

[AD1980]

lol i ask myself that same question and im 31..I just dont fele comfortable hitting on or approachign random women its just a huge fear i cant get over..the few times i did i was rejected..

 

I dont know why i take rejection so personally but i just due..im very sensitive to it unfortunately and feel like if women havent been attracted to me my first 31 years on earth why would that change?

 

Attracting a women just seems like such an unattainable goal to me ..

[pteromom]

lol i ask myself that same question and im 31..I just dont fele comfortable hitting on or approachign random women its just a huge fear i cant get over..the few times i did i was rejected..

 

Attracting a women just seems like such an unattainable goal to me and i dont know why..

 

It's ok to just talk to a woman (without putting yourself in a position to be rejected).

 

Start by just talking more with women you naturally come into contact with in your every day life, whether or not you are attracted to them.

 

So when you go to the grocery store, pick a line with a female cashier. Instead of just checking out and walking off, talk to her. About whatever. The weather. The goofy thing the person in front of you just bought. The winning lottery numbers. The cover of the People magazine at the checkout stand. Whatever.

 

If you work with women, practice talking more when you interact with them. Ask them about their day. Talk about whatever office gossip is going around. If someone brings up a movie they just saw, ask them about it. Etc.

 

Just make a conscious decision to interact with people more. And practice it. Once you can talk to people more easily, it gets easier to judge their reaction to you. If someone is open to you, they lean in, they smile at you, they look at you. Once you get to a place where you can judge this better, you will be able to ask her out with a better idea that she won't reject you.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Yep, it's all about quantity. If you are applying for a job, you don't send in one resume and then when you don't hear back, sit around pouting that you are unemployable.

 

So why do people do this with dating? If one girl isn't interested, the next girl might be. Or the next one. Or the next one.

 

Exactamundo senorita.

 

Going for women is like interviewing for jobs. And if your resume ain't what they're looking for, you might be unemployed for a LONG time. :lmao:

[oaks]

So is that it? The only way dating works is to ask out lots and lots of girls till one decides you're good enough to F ? Which basically means that my own preferences are nothing more than a hindrance.

 

I'm not sure what's wrong with this system. It, generally, means that when two people get together they actually find each other attractive.

 

Yes, if you start with "all adult women" and list all your preferences, as you go through your preferences, each one reduces your dating pool. If you consider that a hindrance that's your choice, but on the other hand you're eliminating women who you don't want to date anyway so what does it matter if one of them actually wanted to date you?

[pteromom]

And if your resume ain't what they're looking for, you might be unemployed for a LONG time. :lmao:

 

Very true!

 

Just like you couldn't go out and apply for a $100K job without the skills and education to back it up, you can't go out in the dating world with nothing to offer and expect someone to be interested.

 

The good news (for those who view themselves as less attractive) is that there are a lot of factors in attracting someone. It's not all about looks.

 

And just like you have to put work into making yourself employable, you also have to put work into making yourself datable. It's mostly about learning to like yourself and learning to be confident in yourself, although all the confidence in the world won't matter if you smell like a gym locker or your front three teeth are missing.

[somedude81]

you're making it way harder than it is, but then again you're used to that....

How am I making things harder?

 

Frankly, I always try to make things as easiest and do as little as work as possible. I always try to be efficient.

You are 30? You are entering an age where the women are more mature and looking for more than a pretty boy.

 

I disagree that if a woman isn't initially attracted to you, there is no chance. Guys become more or less attractive based on what they do.

 

A guy who can play and laugh and let loose and have fun = +3 on the 1-10 scale.

 

A guy who likes animals and kids = +2

 

A guy who actually listens when I talk and who is able to engage in REAL conversation with me? +2

 

A guy who is respectful and opens doors for me? +2

 

So a guy who is average can escalate to gorgeous depending on what he shows me of himself.

That's pretty interesting. It's also good to know that the little things do matter. Though I question the amount of points given simply because I can meet all of those but it hasn't actually helped me.

 

But maybe the girls I'm going after are just to young to give a damn about anything more than a pretty boy.

 

And most ladies are the same. We all have our lists - the list of characteristics we are looking for. Sure, for some ladies, the list includes a 6-pack, the chin of Brad Pitt, and tall/dark/handsome. But as we mature, we usually learn that guys who are extremely good looking come with their own issues, and we start looking more toward personality, values, and goals, and less toward hairline and muscle definition.

So when does that actually start happening?

 

I've always heard how girls mature faster than boys, but from everything I've heard about dating, that can't be further than the truth.

You are at the perfect age to find a woman.

I'd love to believe that.

If you are looking just for sex, that's EASY. You just have to be confident and engage with people. Go to a small bar (not a large club where you can't talk and it's a meat market atmosphere) and laugh and have fun. As people get drunker, if you are engaging with people, you'll notice which women are laughing the loudest and touching you unnecessarily. These are signs that they are open to maybe going home with you, so flirt with them. The key to this is you can't sit in a corner and think about how nobody likes you. That's a self-fulfilling prophesy. You gotta FAKE being confident even if you don't feel it.

First of all, I don't know if I want just sex. Sure it would be nice to get laid for once. But I really have no interest in doing it with a stranger.

 

Though thanks for the tips.

If you are looking for a LTR, that's harder, because you have to pay a lot more attention to compatibility and shared goals. But it's still possible, and YES - it's a numbers game. You have your list of "dealbreakers", and you go out with as many women as possible. If she checks off a dealbreaker item, you move on to the next one.

 

Your preferences DO matter. Don't ask someone out if there is zero attraction to them. Don't continue dating someone who isn't what you want.

 

It's not easy, but it does require getting out there and trying.

My main issue with me having preferences, is that I figure that the number of women who may like me is so retardedly small, that if I have any preferences, I might risk losing somebody that may have been interested. But I don't know if that's better than nothing.

 

As for compatibility, who actually decides that? If only I think we are compatible, nothing is going to happen. Somehow I need to get a girl to think that we are, which almost feels impossible.

It depends on what you mean by 'no interest.' Chasing a woman who has turned you down or shown signs that she is uncomfortable with your interest is doomed to failure. Chasing a girl who hasn't made up her mind yet is not necessarily. But really "chasing" in dating should never be "chasing" per se. It should be kind of like a game of tag --- you should feel like both people are active, willing participants who understand that at some point, the person gets caught. You have to be able to know the difference between whether she's playing tag or just running away. With YOUNGER women, it is harder to see clear boundaries because they have often not yet become comfortable truly saying, "No, I'm never going to date you" and with less experience you miss the clear signs in what they haven't said.

I've never heard of a woman taking any length of time to make up her mind.

 

What's with the point in playing tag at all. If a girl liked me, why should she run, even it was for 'fun?'

 

From what I've learned, chasing in dating is an absolute waste of my time and I'm not doing it again.

 

Well, kind of. You can't "make" someone like you, but you can make yourself into a person who is more likable, charismatic, socially adept, etc, etc. All those things work --- but there's no guarantee they'll work on EVERYONE.

And that's the only reason I haven't completely given up. Because I have some fraction of hope that I can make myself good enough so maybe I'll eventually have a chance with somebody.

 

It just feels endless.

 

Hoping a man will come around is just as foolish, so I don't get the gender difference. Expecting and waiting for something that doesn't happen is just a recipe for failure and unhappiness. Women DO sometimes find that they've fallen for someone they know and have ignored, and men DO sometimes find they want to commit after they've said they're looking for something casual, but neither are situations I'd suggest "waiting" for.

I keep hearing over and over how a guy fell for a girl. 9 times out of 10 it's the guy falling for his female friend. It really does just seem to be a guy thing.

 

Right. Though physical attraction, ESPECIALLY for women, is NOT just about looks. Seriously. Looks play a role, of course, but I know women who fall for all kinds of things that aren't visual - charisma, a sexy accent, a sexy job, a big brain, that social ease/everybody's favorite guy thing some guys have, whatever.

That may be true and all. But I just don't see girls with bad looking guys, unless the girl is really bad looking herself.

 

People meet lots of people. They find some of those people to be suitable romantic partners. They use their social skills and social capital, as well as other attractive traits to endeavor to make that happen. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it succeeds and two people feel similarly. Then they use their various skills to attempt to build a relationship --- usually unsuccessfully if it's their first, btw, but eventually you get it right with someone.

And how do you get somebody to find you to be a suitable romantic partner?

 

I'm almost at the point where I'm tired of meeting new women. How can I get excited about meeting a new girl that I think I could like, when she isn't going to like me back?

 

BTW, what is social capital and why is it important?

 

Many women know absolute "Nos" in less than a minute. Whether they'll say it depends on their age and assertiveness and so forth. Younger women will say no more readily; older women will judge things less by a cover. More mature people always do. I don't think attraction is "luck" --- it's a set of skills (social skills mostly, but also wit and basic mental health skills and so forth), combined with your physical looks (some of which is luck and some of which is controllable - like style and fitness) and any bonuses, like being an astronaut or something.

I think luck is a huge part of attraction. Yes there are things that can be done to improve ones attractiveness, but I don't know how important they actually are or what to even focus on. I really don't want to spend a bunch of time and energy on doing/being something and have it mean nothing at all to women.

I don't think many women know "Yes" in less than a minute. It's generally No/Maybe. I think it's generally that way for most men too, especially those looking for serious Rs. They understand they have to get to know the person a bit first before seeing if an R is even possible with their temperament, etc!

Yeah I think it's also No/Maybe.

 

But my fear is that all I'm going to get are no's. I don't know how to make a women even think maybe.

 

Dating is not about efficiency, so "wasted time" doesn't factor in. Besides, that time may have gone towards building some important social facet or skill that helps you the next time, etc.

When I said wasting time, I'm talking about when the girl thought no to herself from the beginning, but didn't tell the guy until later on. If she had already made up her mind, then any time spent with her is wasted.

 

Personally, I think you vastly overestimate the power of looks and underestimate the power of social skills.

Maybe. Either way, I'd have to have phenomenal social skills to make up for my looks.

I'll be perfectly honest here. For a lot of people dating is kind of second nature. Like riding a bike or speaking English, things people do everyday pretty easily, but if you have learn at an older age it gets harder and harder.

 

Most people learn dating and sex gradually and piecemeal (graduating from group dates at the mall to one on one movie dates to sleeping over, etc.), mostly when they're young and impulsive and don't have the time nor the inclination to sit and think about it reflectively like you're doing here.

 

You're almost 31. If you truly want to have success dating it will be hard. Like trying to learn Punjabi hard, maybe worse. I'm not going to sugar coat it. You've got to compress about 15-16 years worth of life experience into a very short period of time, and you've got to turn off your brain and stop thinking like you're doing here and just react. I know you're not completely inexperienced, but you're close enough.

Yeah, I'm well aware that I'm behind. And because of that, it's only going to get harder. Like it wasn't hard enough already.

 

Once I graduate, I don't have a clue how I'll actually have a chance.

You have to do your research. You have to find all the ways that men turn women off, and how to avoid it. You have to learn how to avoid being the nice guy, how to avoid being/looking needy and desperate, theres tons of dating dynamics. You've been here long enough to know that youre not going to get them from anyone here on this forum, you have to do the research on your own. Its very enlightning to say the least.

That's what I've been doing.

 

I know that there are thousands of ways to fail.

 

Whenever I fu*k up with a woman, I learn another lesson of what not to do.

 

The problem with this method is that it's possible to fail forever and never figure out what actually works.

----

 

I'll address more later.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I'll be perfectly honest here. For a lot of people dating is kind of second nature. Like riding a bike or speaking English, things people do everyday pretty easily, but if you have learn at an older age it gets harder and harder.

 

Most people learn dating and sex gradually and piecemeal (graduating from group dates at the mall to one on one movie dates to sleeping over, etc.), mostly when they're young and impulsive and don't have the time nor the inclination to sit and think about it reflectively like you're doing here.

 

You're almost 31. If you truly want to have success dating it will be hard. Like trying to learn Punjabi hard, maybe worse. I'm not going to sugar coat it. You've got to compress about 15-16 years worth of life experience into a very short period of time, and you've got to turn off your brain and stop thinking like you're doing here and just react. I know you're not completely inexperienced, but you're close enough.

 

That part isn't true.

 

I have a friend who is about OPs age, older actually, who never had a girlfriend before. Once he got one, he can talk about women and relationships all day just like the next guy. All it takes is the first one to welcome you into society.