How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

[somedude81]

You don't need to change what you want! But for real, I think most non religious people today start having sex before they have a "boyfriend girlfriend" talk.

I don't have any issue with that. But I was thinking that the proper way to go about it was to get to know somebody, find out if we are compatible, go on a few dates, get into a relationship then have sex.

 

But now I guess it's, meet somebody, have sex, then decide if they are compatible.

Of course. But your social awareness/skills are lacking. You're going to have to improve them before you have a "real relationship."

 

How do you plan to improve your social awareness/skills?

 

Or do you not plan to?

 

 

 

 

You've said this, it seems, for the last year. You keep saying it.

 

What are you ACTUALLY DOING about it?

 

It doesn't help if all you do is say "I need to work on it" but you never actually do.

That's because the advice I've frequently gotten has addressed the wrong things.

 

Now I'm starting to see that the number one thing I need to work on first, is making girls want to have sex with me. After that, everything should just work itself out.

[Meeks7]

That's because the advice I've frequently gotten has addressed the wrong things.

 

Now I'm starting to see that the number one thing I need to work on first, is making girls want to have sex with me. After that, everything should just work itself out.

 

 

Great! Problem solved, then....

 

Let us know how it all works out for ya......

[marinelife3]

I think that at this point, getting involved with some cold hearted girl who just wants to use you for sex should be the least of your worries.

 

I'm not saying that the process goes:

Sex

Dating

Relationship

 

Maybe more that it usually goes:

Make out

Dating

Sex

Relationship

[Sanman]

 

So is that it? The only way dating works is to ask out lots and lots of girls till one decides you're good enough to F ? Which basically means that my own preferences are nothing more than a hindrance.

 

Yeah, I'm sure if I wanted to, or actually didn't care at all, I could end up with a woman I have zero attraction to, have zero things in common with and can barely stand her personality; but because she liked me, it was the only that mattered.

 

I have not read the thread, but the bold part is the way you get women. You have been doing it backwards. Find any woman that likes you and try her out as a relationship possibility (that is the definition of dating). Repeat this process every few months until you find a girl who likes you that is acceptably attractive and who you like to spend time with. However, your first priority should be finding any girl that finds you attractive and wants a relationship with you. You don't get to choose who you want until after they have gotten the woman to like you.

[somedude81]

I think that at this point, getting involved with some cold hearted girl who just wants to use you for sex should be the least of your worries.

 

I'm not saying that the process goes:

Sex

Dating

Relationship

 

Maybe more that it usually goes:

Make out

Dating

Sex

Relationship

So should I be asking how to get girls to make out with me? I'm assuming that alcohol plays a big part in that now.

[ThaWholigan]

Now I'm starting to see that the number one thing I need to work on first, is making girls want to have sex with me. After that, everything should just work itself out.

 

Starting to see? It's what you've always seen, you just needed us to validate that view. Confirmation bias at it's finest. So, go for it. Forget about friends and all that other stuff we've been talking about. Just go for it.

 

But if you really are serious, you'd had better download that stuff I sent you.

[marinelife3]

The problem is that the questions "how do I get girls to date me", "how do I get girls to have sex with me", and "how do I get girls to make out with me" are all actually the same question. The answer is all the stuff people keep telling you: work on your inner life so that you're more interesting to people, make friends, ask out tons of girls, put yourself in situations where there's lots of girls, etc.

[Meeks7]

The problem is that the questions "how do I get girls to date me", "how do I get girls to have sex with me", and "how do I get girls to make out with me" are all actually the same question. The answer is all the stuff people keep telling you: work on your inner life so that you're more interesting to people, make friends, ask out tons of girls, put yourself in situations where there's lots of girls, etc.

 

 

right. These questions all lead to the same road of disappointment, because you lack that inner self-assurance, regardless of whether there's a girl clinging on your side or not.

 

But, I suppose, it's better than sitting still. I don't expect this sex trial thing to go well for you, but better to fail at SOMETHING than to sit there and do nothing at all.

[somedude81]

Starting to see? It's what you've always seen, you just needed us to validate that view. Confirmation bias at it's finest. So, go for it. Forget about friends and all that other stuff we've been talking about. Just go for it.

 

But if you really are serious, you'd had better download that stuff I sent you.

If I'm serious? Right now I'm mostly confused.

The problem is that the questions "how do I get girls to date me", "how do I get girls to have sex with me", and "how do I get girls to make out with me" are all actually the same question. The answer is all the stuff people keep telling you: work on your inner life so that you're more interesting to people, make friends, ask out tons of girls, put yourself in situations where there's lots of girls, etc.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but why do I have the feeling that there is still stuff missing?

 

As I am now, I could go to an all girl college and ask out 1,000 girls and have them all reject me.

I have not read the thread, but the bold part is the way you get women. You have been doing it backwards. Find any woman that likes you and try her out as a relationship possibility (that is the definition of dating). Repeat this process every few months until you find a girl who likes you that is acceptably attractive and who you like to spend time with. However, your first priority should be finding any girl that finds you attractive and wants a relationship with you. You don't get to choose who you want until after they have gotten the woman to like you.

A relationship possibility.

 

So I need to find one who likes me first, have sex with her, and then worry about if I like her or not.

right. These questions all lead to the same road of disappointment, because you lack that inner self-assurance, regardless of whether there's a girl clinging on your side or not.

 

But, I suppose, it's better than sitting still. I don't expect this sex trial thing to go well for you, but better to fail at SOMETHING than to sit there and do nothing at all.

Uh no. If I have a girl clinging to my side, my confidence would be miles better than what it is now. There would be no comparison.

[marinelife3]

Here is the stuff that's missing: you probably come off as weird and unappetizing to girls in ways you can't perceive because you're socially awkward and so wrapped up in your own head. The best ways to fix that, as far as I can tell are:

 

Make friends. Just having friends will help normalize you by default, even if they are weirdos who volunteer at an animal shelter, and you go out for drinks with them after the volunteer shift and all they talk about is dogs.

 

Trial and error- ask out lots of girls. 1,000 girls at an all girls school sounds like a great start. If you ask out five girls a year you're not going to be able to figure out what you're doing wrong.

[marinelife3]

Another thought: some girls need to be seduced and charmed, but other girls just want a guy who will treat them decent and bring them flowers. You'd probably have more luck with the second group, but you have to put yourself out there a lot more in order to meet them.

[ThaWholigan]

If I'm serious? Right now I'm mostly confused.

 

Of course you are, I'm not surprised. Don't worry about it, there's always a stock pile of advice in your threads due to the amount of questions asked and the multi-layered answers they require.

 

Just download the stuff I sent you . Anything you read here can be applied too, but I would just download it straight away and check them out immediately.

[Sanman]

 

A relationship possibility.

 

So I need to find one who likes me first, have sex with her, and then worry about if I like her or not.

 

Exactly, find a girl, chat her up, kiss her, make out, have sex (if she wants to). After you have done part or all of that, you can worry about whether you both want a relationship in the following 3-6 months. What is the point of getting to know a girl if she is not remotely interested in dating you? Don't agree to be friends and hang around waiting/hoping, just move on to the next one. There are millions of women in this country. It really is that simple.

[Meeks7]

Uh no. If I have a girl clinging to my side, my confidence would be miles better than what it is now. There would be no comparison.

 

1. It's going to be hard to get a girl "clinging to your side" if you don't change your lifestyle choices. That's first and foremost!

 

2. What are you going to do when the source of your confidence (the girl clinging to your side) leaves you/breaks up with you? You'd crash. Everyone crashes when their GF breaks up with them, but some people are better equipped to handle it. Someone like you might go over the deep end, and that would be a shame to see happen to you.

 

 

Here is the stuff that's missing: you probably come off as weird and unappetizing to girls in ways you can't perceive because you're socially awkward and so wrapped up in your own head. The best ways to fix that, as far as I can tell are:

 

Make friends. Just having friends will help normalize you by default, even if they are weirdos who volunteer at an animal shelter, and you go out for drinks with them after the volunteer shift and all they talk about is dogs.

 

Agreed. Some guys repel girls away but they don't know that they do.

 

SomeDude needs some real life connections to help him grow his character.

 

BTW Beth got my email and she's working on a reply to you as we speak.

[Meeks7]

Beth's reply below.

 

 

SD81: And how long does it take for a girl to find out?

 

Beth: We ladies are a smart, intuitive bunch. I can infer certain things about a person in the first conversation. The more we talk, the more I understand. We girls are very good at reading body language. Eye contact, tone, etc. I can usually tell in the first 3 minutes of a conversation whether a guy has his stuff together or not.

 

---

 

SD81: Actually, I haven't heard of any single events in Socal. Unless you are talking about going to a bar, club or some random party.

 

Beth: I doubt Meeks was talking about a bar, club or random party. He's probably talking single meet up events. Dunno where to find one? Hey, I heard there's this thing called Google... and you can like... find almost anything on it

 

I just typed in "meet ups in socal" and got 5.5 million hits, lol. It's not hard at all.

 

Southern California Meetup Groups - Southern California Meetups

 

I see hiking groups, acting groups, dancing groups, wine drinking groups, etc. Opportunities are out there. You just have to look for them.

 

---

 

SD81: As for working on my social life, I don't even really have a clue where to start.

 

Beth: See above. Click on the link and get started.

 

---

 

SD81: I never doubted it. All it takes is having one girl like me as more than a friend. And she's not going to like me based on how many friends I have. There will be other things much more important to her.

 

Beth: She's not going to like you based on how many friends you have, BUT, she's going to like you based on how you make her feel. From your posts, no offense, but it seems you don't have a clue as to how to treat a woman. The reason Meeks (and so many other people) are telling you to have a social circle is so that your social skills develop. When your social skills develop, you become a better catch for a woman. Until your social skills and awareness is improved, you won't get a girl to fall for you. Having friends and learning how to be a good friend will teach you life skills that flow over to intimate relationships.

 

A good practical step for you would be to pick a single meet up event, commit yourself to attending it, and then just show up. Meet new people. Work on developing your social skills. Maybe get some email addresses from the meet-up (or #'s, if you got the skills) and communicate off email.

 

Girls love a guy who is well-rounded and not self-absorbed. If a guy doesn't have any friends, that's almost a sure-fire sign that he is self-absorbed and lacks social skills.

 

I'd hate for you to take away from this thread that having NO friends is A-OK. That would be a tremendous disservice to you. Learning how to connect with men and women on a platonic level is important on your quest to someday "get a girlfriend," and the longer you put this off the longer you will remain single.

[Mme. Chaucer]

^^^^

 

Oh, look. ANOTHER person who has the "inside scoop" who is spending her time offering "nonsense" to somedude that he can toss aside, in favor of continuing on his path. The one that has been working so well for him so far.

 

Forward into your next decade as a 12 year old boy!

[zengirl]

I have never thought about it that way. I guess if somebody was a true friend or not, was never a concern of mine. It was simply good enough that I had somebody to spend time with as well as having interpersonal communication.

 

FTR, this is one of the most self-centered things I've ever read. It's also entirely socially unaware.

 

Please tell me how I am more self-centered than any other human.

 

You asked this question.

 

Seriously, it's a pretty self-centered question to ask.

 

For starters, it's based on the assumption that other people are LIKE YOU, think like you, act like you, etc. You approach the world with a very self-centered worldview, where you find it difficult to understand other people and where you often assume everyone either does or should share your views on how the world works/should work. Essentially, you put YOURSELF at the center of the world in that way, i.e.: Self-centered.

 

I know what you are trying to say. That people who are bastards/bitches and have no true friends and are self centered have no problems getting lovers.

 

It's true that good looking etc matters, but what you two conflated is also part of the problem. Conflating "goodness" with "social skills" is incorrect. Yes, our suggestions (because we happen to be good people with good social skills) are skewing towards BOTH helping SD improve his social skills and doing so in good, positive, productive ways. But bastards and bitches can have excellent social skills and thus not have SD's problem, regardless of how they look.

 

Goodness is not the ONLY way to social skills. I don't think we've pretended it is. It's just the only way any responsible person would promote. I'm not going to teach someone how to manipulate just because some bastards and bitches know it and do well with it.

 

Someone who is self-centered, but also very good at understanding and manipulating others may do fine, but I'm not willing to give tips in that direction and not many others are either because it's wrong. It's also no more effective than doing things the "good" way and tends to attract the wrong sorts of people who cause similar manipulation and messed up situations in YOUR life and head and lead to unhappiness, so why not just go the "good" route if you're starting from scratch?

 

But good or not, I've yet to see someone successfully navigate dating without sufficient social skills. Bitches and bastards don't do well just because they're *******s --- they do well because they have other things to offer and one of those things is generally some social adeptness in other ways.

 

Escalation is what he wants to learn. He's got the being able to talk to girls one-on-one part just about half decent enough, now he wants to be able to get to the part where he makes them want to date him (i.e. escalating, seduction etc).

 

These are the parts being skipped.

 

1) Having enough friends and social life to be able to meet more girls organically and get to know them

 

2) Refining his advanced social skills to the point where he is able to develop enough charisma to attract the kind of women he wants

 

3) Developing himself to want more from life than just a girlfriend.

 

Right. Escalation is PART of the game, but having that tool alone would get SD almost nowhere. At any rate, the two key steps to escalation are 1) being able to properly understand other people and read social cues to know when to do what, etc, 2) Being confident in yourself and secure in your life, as it currently IS. Both of those would need to be developed.

[jobaba]

 

 

It's true that good looking etc matters, but what you two conflated is also part of the problem. Conflating "goodness" with "social skills" is incorrect. Yes, our suggestions (because we happen to be good people with good social skills) are skewing towards BOTH helping SD improve his social skills and doing so in good, positive, productive ways. But bastards and bitches can have excellent social skills and thus not have SD's problem, regardless of how they look.

 

Goodness is not the ONLY way to social skills. I don't think we've pretended it is. It's just the only way any responsible person would promote. I'm not going to teach someone how to manipulate just because some bastards and bitches know it and do well with it.

 

Someone who is self-centered, but also very good at understanding and manipulating others may do fine, but I'm not willing to give tips in that direction and not many others are either because it's wrong. It's also no more effective than doing things the "good" way and tends to attract the wrong sorts of people who cause similar manipulation and messed up situations in YOUR life and head and lead to unhappiness, so why not just go the "good" route if you're starting from scratch?

 

But good or not, I've yet to see someone successfully navigate dating without sufficient social skills. Bitches and bastards don't do well just because they're *******s --- they do well because they have other things to offer and one of those things is generally some social adeptness in other ways.

 

 

Nah. I knew what I was talking about. Somebody who is a bastard with no friends or few friends. We're not talking about 'good' relationships. We're talking about the ability to attract women to you for dating purposes and good looks will do that whether you have friends or not.

 

I don't have too many recent examples because I don't hang out with too many dudes I consider bastards, but there's definitely some from my younger days.

[Els]

Nah. I knew what I was talking about. Somebody who is a bastard with no friends or few friends. We're not talking about 'good' relationships. We're talking about the ability to attract women to you for dating purposes and good looks will do that whether you have friends or not.

 

I don't have too many recent examples because I don't hang out with too many dudes I consider bastards, but there's definitely some from my younger days.

 

Of course there will always be people who prioritize looks (or anything else, really, such as money) in a partner so much that they are willing to be with a partner who looks amazing but is lacking in pretty much all other areas. If a girl put in the money and effort to alter herself to look like a model, I'm pretty certain she will have no trouble getting attention from men even if she acted like a completely selfish bitch. I have actually seen this in action.

 

However, if a selfish girl genuinely asked me what I thought she should do to attract men, would I recommend her to go that route? No. Because it doesn't lead to good relationships.

 

I don't understand why NOT talk about good relationships. Dating is only scratching the surface. Getting attraction is useless in the long run if you can't get it from compatible people whom you can have good relationships with, unless you're looking for NSA. SD has specifically said that that is not his case.

 

That being said, there is no harm in him working on both his appearance AND on improving the very flawed social skills/perceptions that he currently has. In fact, many well-meaning people, including men who have themselves succeeded in working on theirs, have advised him to do so. But then you get excuses like 'I'm an endomorph and I tried working out a bit but didn't notice myself getting buff so I stopped'. So don't think that route hasn't been tried. I've seen everyone try everything under the sun with SD, but nothing is going to work until SD actually takes any of the advice.

[somedude81]

You asked this question.

 

Seriously, it's a pretty self-centered question to ask.

I don't have a lot of time this morning but this is something I want to address.

------------

Member: SD81, you are self-centered

 

Me: How am I self-centered?

 

Member: That's a self-centered question to ask.

 

--------------

 

Anybody else see the problem?

[Mme. Chaucer]

This thread has taken the identical trajectory as the last several started by SD that I've participated in.

 

SD, you put something out there and then reject every single response until, finally and inevitably, you get ONE that provides confirmation for what you already believe and want to continue believing.

 

Then you get all, "Oh! So all I have to do is …." and you seem happy.

 

Until the next thread.

 

What's with this?

[zengirl]

I don't have a lot of time this morning but this is something I want to address.

------------

Member: SD81, you are self-centered

 

Me: How am I self-centered?

 

Member: That's a self-centered question to ask.

 

--------------

 

Anybody else see the problem?

 

I explained WHY it was a self-centered question to ask.

[Teknoe]

This thread has taken the identical trajectory as the last several started by SD that I've participated in.

 

SD, you put something out there and then reject every single response until, finally and inevitably, you get ONE that provides confirmation for what you already believe and want to continue believing.

 

Then you get all, "Oh! So all I have to do is …." and you seem happy.

 

Until the next thread.

 

What's with this?

 

Yup, it's sad. He has his limited set of beliefs, clings onto them for dear life, and waits to see anyone post anything remotely similar to it. Then he goes "YUP! THATS RIGHT!" and dispenses all other (sound, good) advice.

 

I find it sad too that Beth's words probably went on deaf ears. Why, because it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what SD wants to read. BTW, Beth you are awesome for even caring and taking the time to give SD some real, valid female perspective. SD says he wants to learn from women, but truth is, he only wants people to validate his already set-in-stone beliefs.

 

He's not willing to bend at all.

 

Very sad.

 

And he wonders why D wouldn't meet with him 1 last time to explain.

 

She knew what we know -- SD doesn't bend. Such a meeting would have been an ugly blow up... and no woman wants that. She knew you were irrational and likely to go off. Hence, she rejected any final meeting to explain to you. Because everyone can see... YOU DON'T BEND.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Teknoe

[somedude81]

I explained WHY it was a self-centered question to ask.

So let me get this straight, if somebody calls me self-centered, I'm simply not allowed to ask why they say I am, because if I do ask it means I'm self-centered?

 

How is that different from

 

You're stupid!

Why am I stupid?

You're stupid because you asked!

--------

 

Anyways, now to the longer posts.

[somedude81]

Unfortunately, people's fear of their "dream" actually happening (and the hard work that goes along with it) sometimes >>> their actual desire to see it come true.

 

SomeDude reminds me of the guy claiming he wants a full time job, but has only sent out 2 resumes (haphazardly) while watching movies and playing video games 24/7, claiming "Hey I tried!"

 

As opposed to the guy who claims he wants to work full time, and then goes out and sends a 100 resumes, even out of state, and fills his free time reading books on his profession, networking with colleagues, attending workshops, etc.

 

You have two people claiming they want the same thing (i.e. full time job)

 

But in the end, you really only have one person acting out what they claim they want. The other person is just blowing hot air and too scared to change their lot in life. They would rather just play video games and surf the net, blaming the economy and what have you.

 

SomeDude needs to be the guy sending out 100 resumes, but there's something deep within him that blocks him from doing just that. Frankly, I see a guy who simply inflicts self-sabotage (subconsciously).

Fear of the dream, that actually does make sense. And it is a big reason why I'm not trying as hard as I should be. Truth be told, I don't want to have sex with just anybody. I also have little interest in meeting new girls and trying to get them to like me, which does feel completely hopeless. Yes I want a girlfriend but not with just anybody either. I want Danielle. I have for for the past two years. And when things went bad with her (our friendship, we never dated or hooked up) back in November, my spirit was basically broken. It's hard for me to imagine meeting a girl that is as good as a match. She has been on my mind 24/7 since about March of 2010.

 

Still I have asked out other girls since then and nothing's ever come of it. Right now I'm just tired and I don't really want to take the time to get to know anybody and risk falling for them. If I meet a girl and think she has possibility, I'll talk to and joke with her a bit and ask her out, and of course she always says no. Which of course only discourages me.

 

Long story short, I don't have the energy to send out 100 resumes. And when I don't know how to even get a job and simply doubt myself completely, it makes trying all that much harder.