How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

[Els]

The point is because they are human. Just. Like. You. You want someone to get to know you and like you and love you for who you are, past the superficial inadequacies you think you have? You need to be able to return that in full.

 

Great advice, but I think most of us have said that to SD one way or another before over the past few years. Perhaps the 1001th time will be the charm?

[Lonely Ronin]

Great advice, but I think most of us have said that to SD one way or another before over the past few years. Perhaps the 1001th time will be the charm?

 

I don't even know the, and I wish he would finally have a real light bulb moment.

[zengirl]

That's exactly what he did.

 

He got to know a woman over time and fell for her based on the connection they had, with her as a human being.

 

Most men over the age of 21 are not going to fall into a two year depressive spiral over a woman because she is HOT or because she simply has a vagina. And I've seen pictures of D. She ain't HOT.

 

So ... he gets to know a woman over time, connects, falls for her, and she rejects him (probably because of no physical attraction) and he's the one who gets crucified?

 

You can tell him to get over it and act early next time to establish if she is attracted to you, fine.

 

But all the mumbo jumbo about respecting women as people ... puuhhleeeze.

 

That is exactly what he did. And he's bitter because of what happened and understandably so. But it will pass in time.

 

I find it hard to believe that someone who does not see the benefit of friendships in general and does not maintain platonic friendships honestly and truly socialized with D to any extent with no potential romantic intentions. SD fixates on romance over friendship constantly. This is not some surprising tragedy.

 

I honestly don't think SD respects or empathizes with anyone as a human being - men, women, not even himself - or is able to see the dynamic, holistic, and complicated nature of human interaction.

 

I think his fixation with D stems from the fact that he thought he had 'a chance' - a chance for what, well, that's where it becomes complex. SD truly believes he has a problem that can be fixed by getting the validation of a woman reciprocating his affection. He feels like he needs this very much, which is part of the problem, and he pinned the hopes of having that need met on D and poured more and more energy into that hope and it didn't happen. Anyone outside could've seen it was never going to happen, and it's always a bad idea to pin your hopes for the one thing you need on any kind of external validation that relies on other people.

 

And doing so basically makes them not-people to you, but just tools. If he could see people as they are, he would know better than to pin his hopes to anyone else or rely on external validation that heavily.

[Pirouette]

That's exactly what he did.

 

He got to know a woman over time and fell for her based on the connection they had, with her as a human being.

 

Most men over the age of 21 are not going to fall into a two year depressive spiral over a woman because she is HOT or because she simply has a vagina. And I've seen pictures of D. She ain't HOT.

 

So ... he gets to know a woman over time, connects, falls for her, and she rejects him (probably because of no physical attraction) and he's the one who gets crucified?

 

You can tell him to get over it and act early next time to establish if she is attracted to you, fine.

 

But all the mumbo jumbo about respecting women as people ... puuhhleeeze.

 

That is exactly what he did. And he's bitter because of what happened and understandably so. But it will pass in time.

 

Who's crucifying him? Not me, unless you have a different definition of the word. If I advise him to try and get over it, it is because it is in his best interest, and indeed it would be for anyone to move past pain and try to live a happier life.

 

So are you saying he shouldn't respect women as people? That neither men nor women should respect the other gender as people. That individuals shouldn't respect anyone else as people? What is it that you are advising here? How should people relate to each other then?

 

No one here has a monopoly on pain, on being rejected, on being hurt. Is the answer to this to spread pain, to treat others poorly, to degrade them in your mind so that they are pulled down to the level you feel you have been felled? Understandable maybe, but how does that help you truly? And how does that help you move on and find the relationships that will be good for you?

[jobaba]

 

So are you saying he shouldn't respect women as people? That neither men nor women should respect the other gender as people. That individuals shouldn't respect anyone else as people? What is it that you are advising here? How should people relate to each other then?

 

 

Never mind.

 

I took your post out of context. I didn't see what you were responding to. My bad...

 

I find it ironic that people say they want to be respected by members of the opposite sex, but that they best way to succeed in dating is by asking out someone you barely know who you think is 'cute'.

 

And it is indeed the best way.

 

Alls I was saying.

Edited July 16, 2012 by jobaba

[zengirl]

Never mind.

 

I took your post out of context. I didn't see what you were responding to. My bad...

 

I find it ironic that people say they want to be respected by members of the opposite sex, but that they best way to succeed in dating is by asking out someone you barely know who you think is 'cute'.

 

And it is indeed the best way.

 

Alls I was saying.

 

I think there are a myriad of other, really good ways. Meeting through friends or social experiences, for instance, I think is better than asking out someone you barely know in terms of success rates. Even OLD gets most people higher %s than true cold-calls (depending on location and their charm level, I suppose). What is not a way at all is hanging around, hoping someone will notice you.

 

I don't think respect comes into that at all. It is not disrespectful to ask someone out because they are attractive and you'd like to get to know them and potentially jump their bones someday (I find that a low bar, if you have NO other data, personally, but not offensive or disrespectful). It is not disrespectful to find someone attractive, express that, or even lust after them. (Unless they've asked you not to or they're taken or something.) And it is fully possible to be open to seeing them as a person while doing so.

 

It IS disrespectful to get upset when someone isn't interested in your attention or not respect someone else's boundaries, of course. But if someone sees expressing sexual/romantic interest as disrespectful, yes, that will create ALL kinds of problems in dating. (There are respectful and disrespectful means of doing so, of course!)

[ThaWholigan]

This thread is like the 4 seasons, every couple of days Winter comes around.........

[Lonely Ronin]

This thread is like the 4 seasons, every couple of days Winter comes around.........

 

 

Winter is Coming....

[Pirouette]

Never mind.

 

I took your post out of context. I didn't see what you were responding to. My bad...

 

I find it ironic that people say they want to be respected by members of the opposite sex, but that they best way to succeed in dating is by asking out someone you barely know who you think is 'cute'.

 

And it is indeed the best way.

 

Alls I was saying.

 

Thank you. I was really perplexed at what you were taking issue with!

 

Just to be clear, I think we would all want our agency as individuals to be respected, and not just from the opposite sex, and if we want that then we must therefore respect the agency of others. As zengirl says above, I don't think it's disrespectful to ask out someone you barely know, but I would find it disrespectful to write someone off who doesn't give you what you want as a stupid waste of resources that is less than human.

 

For me, it is actually better to acknowledge that other people have their own separate lives and reasoning that I cannot possibly know, that the things they do and decisions that they make are not solely because of me. I may be rejected, but the rejection is not simply a clear cut denial of everything that is me.

 

Just as a personal anecdote, I was on friendly terms with my boyfriend for five years before we started dating, and we've been together as partners for another five years since and still going strong.

[somedude81]

I don't think you ever saw D as human. You saw her as something to acquire. That is how all your posts have gone really. Putting a girl on a pedestal and trying to 'win' her is the OPPOSITE of seeing her as a human being.

 

The point is because they are human. Just. Like. You. You want someone to get to know you and like you and love you for who you are, past the superficial inadequacies you think you have? You need to be able to return that in full. That means approaching everyone as a unique individual and accepting their actions and decisions as their own, made for their own reasons, and not just as further roadbacks set in your path on your journey towards fulfullment. It means thinking of people as more than what they can or cannot do for you.

This whole not seeing D or other women as human thing has been blown way out of proportion.

 

Of course I always saw them as human, it was impossible to do any other way.

 

Just because I want a girlfriend and want her to be mine, doesn't mean I'm thinking disrespectfully of her or thinking less of women.

 

There is no way I am the only person who has ever desired another human. Yet I'm accused of being some sort of monster

 

You don't need to answer this, but have you ever loved someone, man or woman, and accepted all the aspects of them, good and bad, and continued to love them? Have you cared deeply about someone with no thought of what you get out of them in return, treasuring only your time spent with them? Do you love them still? When was the last time you did something selfless, without even expecting acknowledgment?

Are you talking about family?

 

As for non-family, I have never been in love with a woman. The closest I have ever gotten was with that girl. Everything I did with and for her had a purpose.

 

 

 

If you truly do not get what I am saying, if you truly do not get why you should treat women, and everyone as humans (otherwise, what do you treat them as? Garbage, filth, living dolls to reflect your own desires and effort, a prized possession that you hang on your arm like a symbol of achievment?) then there is truly nothing more I can say to you and I will bow out of this conversation.

Exactly, what else is there than to treat everybody else as human? It's a ridiculous notion to believe I do otherwise.

 

These are basic tenets of most healthy, human relationships. This is not new age or radical thinking.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You want a woman who will disregard your physical imperfections, and care nothing about lack of character, then you better be able to provide the few outlier criteria that women like that are looking for. Make tons of money, work a glamourous job, or pray to win the lottery.

And now I'm lacking character?

 

Gee thanks.

[Pirouette]

This whole not seeing D or other women as human thing has been blown way out of proportion.

 

Of course I always saw them as human, it was impossible to do any other way.

 

Just because I want a girlfriend and want her to be mine, doesn't mean I'm thinking disrespectfully of her or thinking less of women.

 

There is no way I am the only person who has ever desired another human. Yet I'm accused of being some sort of monster

 

 

Are you talking about family?

 

As for non-family, I have never been in love with a woman. The closest I have ever gotten was with that girl. Everything I did with and for her had a purpose.

 

 

 

Exactly, what else is there than to treat everybody else as human? It's a ridiculous notion to believe I do otherwise.

 

These are basic tenets of most healthy, human relationships. This is not new age or radical thinking.

 

And now I'm lacking character?

 

Gee thanks.

 

But those were your words. You said seeing them as human was a problem, that D was less than human to you. So which is it? It is very possible to not see and to not treat other people as human. It all depends on how you think of them and how that plays out in your actions.

 

I do include family in this as that's probably where the foundation of your ways of relating was formed, but I also mean anyone else, man or woman, who is not family. Or do you not think you can love someone without romantic feelings involved? And everything you did for her had a purpose? They were calculated actions meant to receive a specific reward from her to you? If this is true, realize not everyone thinks or acts the same as you.

 

Desire comes in many forms. We spend our wholes lives desiring. How we express it and deal with it makes the difference. If you are monstrous in your desire, it is only to your detriment.

 

Do you think your character is perfect? I have at many times in my life acknowledge deficiencies in my character and worked hard to overcome them. I still struggle with issues often and must be mindful of them. I also acknowledge my strengths. Make a list. What about yourself do you admire? What inside of you marks you as different and sets you above? What are your faults? What do you dislike and what can you change? Know thyself first before you can understand what you have to offer someone else.

[somedude81]

I don't know why women believe men do this.

 

What guy would ever lust after a woman intently and then say to himself, "Well. I'll be her friend first. That will be the best route."

 

The last woman I fell for ... she used to tell me stories about her boyfriend and the men she used to chase after and I used to LAUGH. Because I felt nothing for her. Then, suddenly, something snapped, and I was infatuated with her.

 

That's USUALLY how it happens when guys fall for their friends. Believe me...

In this situation, I was not her friend first before I fell for her.

 

I still remember the first time I saw her.

 

First day of Japanese class, I scanned the room to see who the cute girls are. She caught my eye. Not knowing how the dating and sex thing actually worked, I decided that I'm going to get to know her then ask her out.

 

The next day in class I sat down next to her and just started talking to her. I talked to her before and after class for about two weeks then suggested we get lunch together. I'd later find out that she had no idea that I wanted to be more than friends with her and I had no idea that was all she wanted. About two weeks went by of talking before class, we hung out after class a couple of times. My feelings for her were growing, and I thought she was starting to like me. One day in class I asked her out. No I didn't actually say, "would you go on a date with me" but I thought she'd have to be an idiot to not realize me picking her up at her house on Saturday to get some food and then go bowling would be anything other than a date.

 

She accepted, everything was set. Saturday comes, I'm super excited, think to myself that I'd try to kiss her if things go well. And what ends up happening is that we walk to the bowling alley with her guy friend that she brought to cockblock me who basically chaperones us for an hour and I was a total wuss for going along with the whole thing.

 

Long story short, she didn't realize that I liked her until about a day after I asked her out. I talked to her the next day after class, she told me she wasn't interested in dating but would be fine being friends. I refused and we didn't speak for the rest of the semester and had no contact over the summer. And I actually ended up going on a couple of dates with somebody I met at summer school, but it never went anywhere.

 

I would have been perfectly fine with how things ended with D if that was it. But when the next semester started, she ended up being in my Japanese class again. With still lingering feelings, there was no way I could ignore her for the entire semester. That's when I decided to try the friend approach with her and see if she would eventually fall for me. All the while I was trying to pursue other girls as well and nothing every worked with them. Dani was the one girl who knew I liked her, yet continued to hang out with me. At first it was hard to get her to go somewhere with me but eventually she stopped asking if it was supposed to be a date and just starting going along with it. A year goes by where we have this friendship and she knows that I like her but as long as I'm low pressure, shes fine with it.

 

I do agree that's how it often happens. (That happens to women with male friends too sometimes btw.) And when that happens, you have a choice to make: 1. Express that feeling, 2. Get over that feeling, 3. End the friendship. It's the poor choices made in lieu of doing one of those 3 mature things and the dragging of feet in making the choice that is the problem.

In my situation, I don't really think I had a choice.

 

I didn't want to drop the class over a girl, and with it being a small class that required interaction with other students, ignroing her wasn't an option. There were also a few other things.

 

But one thing I need to make clear, I'm not going to be friends with a girl I like. I made that decision last year when things went bad.

 

However, SD has expressed before that he honestly thinks his best chance with women is if they get to know him first, in a 'non-threatening' (which I think he views as a rather asexual) way. I don't know why men think dates are 'threatening' to women. They aren't - perhaps they're unwanted, and she struggles with rejecting men, and even then, it's not really that dates are 'threatening.' There are guys who try to play a slow game, and they almost always fail.

Actually, SD has expressed that he doesn't know what the hell he is doing.

 

I have tried a variety of approaches and they all have failed. That's why I made this thread, I don't have a clue. And now I'm almost 31 and am still struggling to figure out what most guys learned in their late teens/early 20's.

 

You really need to get over the fact that D didn't want you. I understand being bitter, but the writing was on the wall from the jump in that situation. Go out and meet other women. Right now, all you're doing is wasting your time.

The main factors are my depression, desperation, that I'm lonely, and few girls actually let me get close to them. The Dani situation was basically a perfect storm.

 

Also, I'm very scared of getting burned again so I don't really know what to do next. So here I am, not wanting to get hurt, while having no confidence in myself and the only thing I really know is that I must not become friends with any girls. When all I know is what I should not do, and don't know what I should do, I don't do anything. And the memory of that girl remains.

[fortyninethousand322]

As I read your posts SD I realize I have done some of the very same things. Scary how similar our experiences are.

[Cracker Jack]

Do you consider avoiding being "burned again" to be on equal terms with "avoiding a chance at finding actual love?" Or do you consider one worse than the other? I guess my point is by avoiding putting yourself out there, you're doing more damage to yourself in the long-run.

 

However, I KNOW the idea of getting rejected again can be quite scary as well. Unfortunately, stuff like that isn't avoidable. Well, actually it is. By not talking to women ever again and completely isolating yourself from them in a romantic sense, but I'm sure you don't want to do that.

[Meeks7]

And now I'm lacking character?

 

Gee thanks.

 

You either have character, or lack it.

 

And you either realize that you do, or don't.

 

Someone saying you lack character doesn't mean you SUDDENLY lack character. It just means (if they're right, of course) you don't yet realize it, because you simply don't know any better, or you're plain in massive denial.

 

When you PM'ed me your "I Feel Like Crap" thread many moons ago, asking me to show it to my female friend, I also read it myself. Talking about wanting to make Dani cry and screaming at her were difficult posts for me to read. It really displays the lack of maturity and character you possess. You're too single-minded (pardon the pun) on getting a girlfriend/affection from a girl. You lack empathy. You have a quick temper that flares up whenever things don't go the way you want them to. You are unstable emotionally and mentally.

 

At almost 31 years old, you're not going to attract any girls with your kind of attitude and life experiences, or lack thereof. That's why almost everybody has been telling you the SAME things over and over, yet everytime you deny, ignore, tear down, avoid or try to change the topic. Make no bones about it, your issues aren't with flirting or lack of height. They are lack of perspective, social skills and being able to rationally act and react appropriately to various life situations as they come.

 

Until you sort out the skeletons in your closet, you will always be buried by them.

 

But don't listen to me and the 57 others telling you the same thing, keep focusing on dating, girls, PU tricks, wearing the right cologne, flirty pick up lines, etc. All that "research" (on the wrong areas of your life) has obviously served you WELL in the past in terms of dating and getting a girlfriend, hasn't it......

 

I don't think you're in denial however so much as you just don't know. Being in denial has an underlying meaning that you know, but you ignore. I think for you you really just don't know. You lack the social cues and filter to know. For example, you claim you were not clingy with Dani but from your Dani threads it was clear that you were and you suffocated her with your texts and whatnot. You claim you weren't clingy when everyone else could easily see that you were.

 

I don't think you were in denial. I think you honestly just don't know.

 

And there comes the frustration end of it.

 

I dunno what else to say. You can't seem to understand or grasp what others can see. You see it in other people's shoes (I've seen your replies in other people's threads and generally speaking they seem reasonable), but you can never apply it to your own life.

 

You tell others "move on it's over" like it's nothing, but you can't apply the very advice you give to others to save your own life. You have a serious mental block and professional help/treatment (and some prayer) couldn't hurt one iota. But of course, you're not going to seek it out. You're just gonna sit back and let life continue to pass you by while you complain and defend yourself on Loveshack. Imagine if all the energy you put into posting on LS was invested in bettering yourself, each day. You'd be much better off.

[jobaba]

When you PM'ed me your "I Feel Like Crap" thread many moons ago, asking me to show it to my female friend, I also read it myself. Talking about wanting to make Dani cry and screaming at her were difficult posts for me to read. It really displays the lack of maturity and character you possess. You're too single-minded (pardon the pun) on getting a girlfriend/affection from a girl. You lack empathy. You have a quick temper that flares up whenever things don't go the way you want them to. You are unstable emotionally and mentally.

 

At almost 31 years old, you're not going to attract any girls with your kind of attitude and life experiences, or lack thereof. That's why almost everybody has been telling you the SAME things over and over, yet everytime you deny, ignore, tear down, avoid or try to change the topic. Make no bones about it, your issues aren't with flirting or lack of height. They are lack of perspective, social skills and being able to rationally act and react appropriately to various life situations as they come.

 

I do agree with your general point.

 

However...

 

I just watched a movie recently.

 

Ted Bundy (2002) - IMDb

 

Mediocre movie, but intriguing enough to inspire me to do some research on the infamous Ted Bundy.

 

Handsome and charming (and a clearly demented psychopath), Bundy was able to charm most of the women he murdered into compromising and vulnerable situations before they ultimately met their demise. This was not a case of him grabbing them and pulling him into his car as they walked out of the 7-11.

 

One woman he had a relationship with continued to see and support him even as he was in prison awaiting trial as a murder suspect for another woman!

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to get a woman? Absolutely not.

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to KEEP a strong, smart woman who can easily detect a faux handsome and charming facade like Ted Bundy? Yes. But those women comprise nowhere near the entire female single population.

 

Is that what I am looking for? Yes.

 

Is that what SD is looking for? I don't know.

 

You cannot group women into a group of empathetic beings with strong character. There are just as many women as men with bad character and weak resolve.

Edited July 17, 2012 by jobaba

[Meeks7]

Do I believe you need character and empathy to get a woman? Absolutely not.

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to KEEP a strong, smart woman who can easily detect a faux handsome and charming facade like Ted Bundy? Yes. But those women comprise nowhere near the entire female single population.

 

Is that what I am looking for? Yes.

 

Is that what SD is looking for? I don't know.

 

You cannot group women into a group of empathetic beings with strong character. There are just as many women as men with bad character and weak resolve.

 

Hmm, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I see what you're saying but it's this simple:

 

1. Is it better to have character than not?

 

Yes.

 

2. Is it better to be able to process empathy than not?

 

Yes.

 

Just because some people may lack in these areas, are you trying to suggest to SomeDude that it's OK for him to lack in those areas?

 

I just don't see how ignoring the core issues at hand would help him out. He has talked in the past about hiding his lack of a social circle. Again, why hide something when you can work on it?

 

I can empathize with someone going through a slump or a bad stretch, but it's pretty obvious for SomeDude that this isn't a slump or a bad stretch that will magically "go away" like it does for many "normal" folks. For him, it's an insidious mindset and lifestyle.

 

He's not going to pull himself out of the mud unless he comes to a breaking point where he really wants to change and start living a victorious life. It's all up to him, though. No one else can do the hard work it will take to bring him out of his own self-imposed shackles and darkness.

 

I'm not going to walk by someone sinking and just stand there and say "Don't worry, everyone struggles, you'll get through this naturally!" and walk away. I'm at least going to offer help and perspective. If he doesn't want to grab onto the rope -- then that's on him and he'll continue to slowly sink.

 

But I'm not going to just reply to him "Everything's gonna be OK if you don't change. Just stay the course!" It's obvious to most people here that SomeDude is on a very dangerous path, and if he doesn't make some changes in the forseeable future, things could really get bleak. Just small steps in the right direction. But he's refusing to do even just that.

[jobaba]

 

Just because some people may lack in these areas, are you trying to suggest to SomeDude that it's OK for him to lack in those areas?

 

 

I think that character and empathy don't have much to do with getting women.

 

Those traits will help you KEEP a GOOD woman, but you still might need more to actually attract them.

 

In terms of OTHER women, they won't help at all. Good looks, game, SWAG, and mass quantity approach.

 

I know douchebags who make fun of unattractive and overweight women when it is even suggested that they be matched and the only male friends they have are those they use as wingmen to go chase women. They are very successful with women. I'm talking relationships, not just flings.

 

Do I know good guys who do just as well? Sure. But those guys also have some amount of good looks and charm to rival the douchebags.

 

Both types of guys pull from two different pools of women and some from the same. Think of it as a Venn Diagram. And in terms of SD's dating pool, it's probably the intersection.

 

So, in terms of character helping ... marginally perhaps.

 

I think he should just try and get out more and talk to lots of women.

Edited July 17, 2012 by jobaba

[somedude81]

But those were your words. You said seeing them as human was a problem, that D was less than human to you. So which is it? It is very possible to not see and to not treat other people as human. It all depends on how you think of them and how that plays out in your actions.

When I knew her, Dani was the most important person in the world to me. So no, back then, she was not less than human to me.

 

What I did say is "Right now, she is less than human to me." I also established the context in my previous post on how we haven't had any contact in the past six months and ended on bad terms. She is somebody that I am still very bitter about and have very strong and mixed feelings for. If I met her tomorrow, I don't know if I should hug her or punch her. Obviously there is a lot of left over anger.

 

(No I would not actually hit her and I have never struck anybody.)

 

I do include family in this as that's probably where the foundation of your ways of relating was formed, but I also mean anyone else, man or woman, who is not family. Or do you not think you can love someone without romantic feelings involved? And everything you did for her had a purpose? They were calculated actions meant to receive a specific reward from her to you? If this is true, realize not everyone thinks or acts the same as you.

In my experiences/beliefs, the only types of love are family love and romantic love. I've never had a friend that I felt was close enough to love, nor felt that a friend ever loved me.

 

As for doing things for her, I wanted her to like me. So everything I did, I did with the intention of trying to get her to like me. I never asked for a reward, all I wanted was for her to like me and spend more time with me. So it only made sense to try and make her happy.

 

Frankly, the only way to do a truly selfless act and expect nothing back from the other person at all, is to do or give them something you know they will not like.

Desire comes in many forms. We spend our wholes lives desiring. How we express it and deal with it makes the difference. If you are monstrous in your desire, it is only to your detriment.

I am not monstrous in my desire, but people are trying to paint me as one because I have desire, and that's just BS.

Do you think your character is perfect?

Of course not.

 

Lets go back to your previous post

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You want a woman who will disregard your physical imperfections, and care nothing about lack of character, then you better be able to provide the few outlier criteria that women like that are looking for. Make tons of money, work a glamourous job, or pray to win the lottery.

You made it seem that my character is so lacking that the only way I can hope to get a woman is if I made a ton of money, had a glamorous job or won the lottery. Was that your intention?

 

Yes, I am looking for a girl who can look past some of my physical imperfections and some of my flaws and see me for who I am, without me needing to be a millionaire first. Am I asking for the impossible?

As I read your posts SD I realize I have done some of the very same things. Scary how similar our experiences are.

I believe that they are mistakes that many men have made and will continue to make.

 

This game can be very complicated.

Do you consider avoiding being "burned again" to be on equal terms with "avoiding a chance at finding actual love?" Or do you consider one worse than the other? I guess my point is by avoiding putting yourself out there, you're doing more damage to yourself in the long-run.

 

However, I KNOW the idea of getting rejected again can be quite scary as well. Unfortunately, stuff like that isn't avoidable. Well, actually it is. By not talking to women ever again and completely isolating yourself from them in a romantic sense, but I'm sure you don't want to do that.

Here's what's up.

 

Most of the girls I meet and want to ask out, are from school or work. I prefer to talk to a girl a few times before I ask her out, and those are two of the few places where I know I can do that.

 

Spring semester I was still hurting from what happened at the end of the year and I didn't try to get to know anybody. That whole semester feels like a blur. At my job, I've asked out two girls this year and they both turned me down. There are a couple more girls I'd like to get to know but my shift has been very busy and stressful recently and I haven't had the opportunity. I'm also really starting to question my overall approach.

 

Once school starts in September, I'm going to put myself in more situation where I will interact with women and odds are I will ask out a few girls later this year. But again, I'm still worried that my approach is wrong.

 

So yeah, I can ask out a few girls and get rejected, but I won't gain anything from it except for a bruised ego.

[DreamerDeceiver]

I just wanted to say "thank you" to all the people who have contributed to this thread - it is a goldmine.

 

Somedude81 and all the frustrated out there, this goes out to you.

 

I'm 29 and a 9 months recovering AFC (average frustrated chump for those who don't know.) When I broke up with "that girl" - the one that clearly shows you, gotta change or else - I totally fell off track and wasted 6 months of my life in self pity and misery. When I look back at the thread I made half a year ago in "Coping" I now see how hard I was torturing myself through the years in dealing with women and dating, all reflected in one post. People's replies really struck a chord in me.

 

My success with women gradually increased when I stopped taking everything in life so seriously (except my career and health), got new clothes, put myself out there online and in person to find/get dates and started working out. Lifting weights is one of the best things a man can do for himself. I cannot describe how much any kind of regular exercise will have an impact on your life, your moods and well-being. There were alot of embarrasing mistakes I've made in catching up on "this dating thing" - but I'm not going to let it stop me because it's too much fun! I've had more dates this year than in my last 10 combined. My new interest is going out to local bars, clubs and singles events because I wasn't attracting the girls I really wanted from online dating. I don't even care or feel self-concious about going out by myself. One day, I simply decided I was through with spending Friday nights alone.

 

Now it's gone to the point where I won't refer to women as b--ches anymore because I see them in a different moon... I learned to accept their crazy, irrational, illogical "sea-of-emotion-bubbling-over" ways. :pThese things now drive me "crazy in love" with them instead of me getting pissed off about them!

 

With friends and social circles, I can relate where you're coming from. I only have a handful of friends, in fact I mainly chill with one person who I consider my longtime best friend. I'm very selective in who I spend my time with. However, I've also accepted that throughout my life, I tended to close myself off from people, in fear of being hurt. Somedude81, you need to just get over yourself because you are not alone! Pain and heartbreak of the darkest sort, is universal and all too common among us guys. Without others to talk to about what I went through I would never be here, writing this post, trying to help you out too. You have a treasure trove of human knowledge wealth here. I don't even know these people, but I'd gladly be friendly with them and have a drink in real life. The advice contained in this topic is priceless.

 

You have to accept that things you learn in life will change, and your old ways will get outdated, just like computer hardware. Rejection will test how much of a man you are or not, if you let it get to you then you lose! It's simple as that. Never let anything not in your control, control you - it's like a dog chasing it's own tail. Looks silly doesn't it?

 

I can tell you one way you have a big advantage. You have your own place which is a big thing if you want to "properly entertain" a woman. Somewhere to take her that's private and isolated to build up the beautiful intimacy between you both... start looking at what you have instead of what you don't, and improve yourself as much as possible.

 

If I could recommend three books to you that had the biggest impact on my own turnaround, they would be: "Attraction Isnt A Choice" and "Double Your Dating" by David DeAngelo and "Way Of The Superior Man" by David Deida. "Class A chit" as Tony Montana would say. The DeAngelo stuff will turn your life upside down and that goes out to all the AFCs who need a reality check + slap in the face in one shot.

 

Sex and dating is not this "Holy Grail" thing that frustrated dudes make it out to be... in fact it's that exact way of thinking about it that revolts women!

 

The best advice I got from one of my dearest female friends is simply, "Smile"...

Why is something so simple, so effective? Because it's the little things like that, which go a long way into giving off a better impression towards people - especially the ladies you find attractive.

 

Girls can sense when you are self-concious about your own hangups, like a Doberman can smell a car thief.

They say that things that do not grow are dead - will you choose to be dead, or alive man? I wish you the best in your journey.

 

Peace

- DreamerDeceiver

 

PS: If you Google "attraction isn't a choice free download" you can find a PDF copy of it online. It's the fourth link that says "Important".

[Els]

Do I believe you need character and empathy to get a woman? Absolutely not.

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to KEEP a strong, smart woman who can easily detect a faux handsome and charming facade like Ted Bundy? Yes. But those women comprise nowhere near the entire female single population.

 

I completely agree with your first point. As to the second, I would amend it to 'you need character and empathy to keep a good woman, period'. Not only strong and smart women are attracted to a man of good character. In general, women of good character themselves prize it in a man.

 

I guess I fail to see the purpose of getting any other sort of woman, given that SD is looking for a relationship and not casual sex.

[Meeks7]

I just wanted to say "thank you" to all the people who have contributed to this thread - it is a goldmine.

 

Somedude81 and all the frustrated out there, this goes out to you.

 

I'm 29 and a 9 months recovering AFC (average frustrated chump for those who don't know.) When I broke up with "that girl" - the one that clearly shows you, gotta change or else - I totally fell off track and wasted 6 months of my life in self pity and misery. When I look back at the thread I made half a year ago in "Coping" I now see how hard I was torturing myself through the years in dealing with women and dating, all reflected in one post. People's replies really struck a chord in me.

 

My success with women gradually increased when I stopped taking everything in life so seriously (except my career and health), got new clothes, put myself out there online and in person to find/get dates and started working out. Lifting weights is one of the best things a man can do for himself. I cannot describe how much any kind of regular exercise will have an impact on your life, your moods and well-being. There were alot of embarrasing mistakes I've made in catching up on "this dating thing" - but I'm not going to let it stop me because it's too much fun! I've had more dates this year than in my last 10 combined. My new interest is going out to local bars, clubs and singles events because I wasn't attracting the girls I really wanted from online dating. I don't even care or feel self-concious about going out by myself. One day, I simply decided I was through with spending Friday nights alone.

 

Now it's gone to the point where I won't refer to women as b--ches anymore because I see them in a different moon... I learned to accept their crazy, irrational, illogical "sea-of-emotion-bubbling-over" ways. :pThese things now drive me "crazy in love" with them instead of me getting pissed off about them!

 

With friends and social circles, I can relate where you're coming from. I only have a handful of friends, in fact I mainly chill with one person who I consider my longtime best friend. I'm very selective in who I spend my time with. However, I've also accepted that throughout my life, I tended to close myself off from people, in fear of being hurt. Somedude81, you need to just get over yourself because you are not alone! Pain and heartbreak of the darkest sort, is universal and all too common among us guys. Without others to talk to about what I went through I would never be here, writing this post, trying to help you out too. You have a treasure trove of human knowledge wealth here. I don't even know these people, but I'd gladly be friendly with them and have a drink in real life. The advice contained in this topic is priceless.

 

You have to accept that things you learn in life will change, and your old ways will get outdated, just like computer hardware. Rejection will test how much of a man you are or not, if you let it get to you then you lose! It's simple as that. Never let anything not in your control, control you - it's like a dog chasing it's own tail. Looks silly doesn't it?

 

I can tell you one way you have a big advantage. You have your own place which is a big thing if you want to "properly entertain" a woman. Somewhere to take her that's private and isolated to build up the beautiful intimacy between you both... start looking at what you have instead of what you don't, and improve yourself as much as possible.

 

If I could recommend three books to you that had the biggest impact on my own turnaround, they would be: "Attraction Isnt A Choice" and "Double Your Dating" by David DeAngelo and "Way Of The Superior Man" by David Deida. "Class A chit" as Tony Montana would say. The DeAngelo stuff will turn your life upside down and that goes out to all the AFCs who need a reality check + slap in the face in one shot.

 

Sex and dating is not this "Holy Grail" thing that frustrated dudes make it out to be... in fact it's that exact way of thinking about it that revolts women!

 

The best advice I got from one of my dearest female friends is simply, "Smile"...

Why is something so simple, so effective? Because it's the little things like that, which go a long way into giving off a better impression towards people - especially the ladies you find attractive.

 

Girls can sense when you are self-concious about your own hangups, like a Doberman can smell a car thief.

They say that things that do not grow are dead - will you choose to be dead, or alive man? I wish you the best in your journey.

 

Peace

- DreamerDeceiver

 

PS: If you Google "attraction isn't a choice free download" you can find a PDF copy of it online. It's the fourth link that says "Important".

 

 

Post of the Thread. Bar none.

 

Here we have, a guy who was in a very similar situation as SomeDude, but decided that enough was enough, and TOOK ACTION AND RESPONSIBILITY of his own life.

 

SomeDude, do you see where it's gotten him?

 

Quit spending Friday nights cooped up in your apartment playing games alone, watching movies alone and surfing the net! You live in Southern California for crying out loud, LOL.

 

TASTE LIFE! Get off your butt and go do things, meet people, mingle, and expand your horizons. Dip that toe into the water!

[Meeks7]

I think that character and empathy don't have much to do with getting women.

 

Those traits will help you KEEP a GOOD woman, but you still might need more to actually attract them.

 

In terms of OTHER women, they won't help at all. Good looks, game, SWAG, and mass quantity approach.

 

The issue here AND with SomeDude in general is the sole and extreme focus/fixation on making everything about (winning over) women.

 

Whatever happened to just becoming a better, well-rounded, well-adjusted person? Does it guarantee you a woman? No. But is it still worth doing, figuring out and achieving? If you wish to be someone who makes a positive difference in the world, I'd say the answer then becomes a unanimous yes.

 

I used to be girl-crazy. Then I realized I had so many flaws who would date me? I decided to focus on self-improvement and helping out others. The funny thing is, when you help others out, you're also helping yourself. Putting a smile on other people's faces puts a smile on your face. Among many things, I did a mission trip to Africa where I helped teach the orphans and spent time playing with them. The trip altered my outlook on life, and not long thereafter, I ran into Beth, who became my girlfriend. I was in a good solid place in life. I wasn't really focused on women at the time, either. I was just being a productive global citizen. You make your own breaks, and when you do, you're usually awarded with some breaks. I met Beth through a friend... that friend was on the Africa trip.

 

Some people only really care about their own happiness. That's their choice. SomeDude seems like one of those dudes who operates in that realm, but the problem is he's on the bottom of the totem pole (for a lack of a better term) and girls will not be interested in him until he has something about him that stands out and separates him from the crowd of guys. Right now he's being very complacent, and is content moping around about the whole Dani episode, that he's not doing anything to lift himself from the very bottom of the totem pole. Until he puts in the efforts for change, nothing will change for him except he'll get older and more depressed with time.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Meeks7

[zengirl]

This whole not seeing D or other women as human thing has been blown way out of proportion.

 

Of course I always saw them as human, it was impossible to do any other way.

 

Just because I want a girlfriend and want her to be mine, doesn't mean I'm thinking disrespectfully of her or thinking less of women.

 

I don't mean to imply you're 'thinking less of women' per se. I mean to state that you actually cannot understand and appreciate the dynamic and complex nature of a human being with their own autonomy. If you did, you truly wouldn't say or do some of the things you say and do. Again, it has little to do with 'respect' in the general sense and more to do with being able to see human beings as more than tools. It's not about your wanting someone per se either.

 

But, here's an illustration with D to try to get you to understand the concept:

 

D, as a real person, was not interested in your romantic interest, and I believe based on the stories you've told, there were clear signs of that throughout your interactions. (You missed them. Which is another issue for another time.) That is who she really was, which is different than who you hoped she was. I'm sure she's different in many ways from your idea of her. People often are. This is why the better way to approach people is to understand that 'your idea' will have to always be in flux. It got to the point, for D, where it probably hurt to be around you, because she could feel the dissonance of differing from your idea of her. You weren't open to a new idea of her. You weren't open to the idea of her as a person, outside of the parameters you set.

 

Granted, I understand it hurts when someone doesn't return your affections, and there are ways to see and treat someone as a full-fledged person and recognize they don't meet with your original idea that also include removing yourself gracefully from the situation that is causing you pain.

 

And certainly it's fine to only want to be around someone if they're romantically interested in you - but then you need to try to seek out the truth of that person, rather than create an idea.

 

If you had better social skills and empathy, which is what is lacking here, you would do better with this step of the dating process. You just would.

 

Exactly, what else is there than to treat everybody else as human? It's a ridiculous notion to believe I do otherwise.

 

To treat them as ideas, as tools, as mysteries. . . There are all kinds of other things where we attempt to deny another's own nature.

 

In this situation, I was not her friend first before I fell for her.

 

I still remember the first time I saw her.

 

First day of Japanese class, I scanned the room to see who the cute girls are. She caught my eye. Not knowing how the dating and sex thing actually worked, I decided that I'm going to get to know her then ask her out.

 

Thank you for clarifying. This is as I thought.

 

Dani was the one girl who knew I liked her, yet continued to hang out with me. At first it was hard to get her to go somewhere with me but eventually she stopped asking if it was supposed to be a date and just starting going along with it. A year goes by where we have this friendship and she knows that I like her but as long as I'm low pressure, shes fine with it.

 

She probably thought you were over it by then. She made her position and boundary very clear, she respected your decision, and she even double-checked the first few times you hung out again after that. Why would she still think you liked her that way?

 

Why would you have to drop the class to not hang out with her? You could be basically pleasant in class - saying no more than was needed, really, as we don't generally get into great personal detail in classes - and deal with her presence without asking her to hang out with you.

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to get a woman? Absolutely not.

 

Sure. Depends on the woman. I do think that character and empathy help, just by helping someone be more socially assured and build social skills. It is the better path to building social skills, which is not to say that jerks can't have social skills. Charisma is ONE social skill that is relatively hard to master, but it's not the only one and it can be bypassed. If you have charisma, you may not need other social skills though.

 

Do I believe you need character and empathy to KEEP a strong, smart woman who can easily detect a faux handsome and charming facade like Ted Bundy? Yes. But those women comprise nowhere near the entire female single population.

 

I think if you want a woman with character and empathy, you would need to have character and empathy. If you want a LTR, you probably need that kind of woman. I don't think 'strong and smart' has as much to do with it, though those are nice traits as well.

[fortyninethousand322]

I think most of you people on here are way too optimistic about SD being able to change. This is something biological/genetic that causes some guys not to "get it" when it comes to courting rituals. It can't really be fixed.

 

I also think it's kind of an unfair imposition to expect people to think kindly of those who don't return their affections. As long as you don't act on that animosity I really don't see the issue.

Edited July 17, 2012 by fortyninethousand322