How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

July 17, 2012

I think most of you people on here are way too optimistic about SD being able to change. This is something biological/genetic that causes some guys not to "get it" when it comes to courting rituals. It can't really be fixed.

I also think it's kind of an unfair imposition to expect people to think kindly of those who don't return their affections. As long as you don't act on that animosity I really don't see the issue.

Why would you think that social skills are biologically ingrained? I've seen no scientific data to support that. Certainly behaviors and beliefs are deeply ingrained, but not biologically, and they CAN change. Only if you want to, which I agree SD does not and thus probably will not.

I don't suggest one must always think 'kindly' of others, but I think you have to respect them still, as a person, and try to deal with your animosity in a productive way for your own sake. Blaming others gets you absolutely nowhere in life. Truly.

July 17, 2012

Why would you think that social skills are biologically ingrained? I've seen no scientific data to support that. Certainly behaviors and beliefs are deeply ingrained, but not biologically, and they CAN change. Only if you want to, which I agree SD does not and thus probably will not.

I don't suggest one must always think 'kindly' of others, but I think you have to respect them still, as a person, and try to deal with your animosity in a productive way for your own sake. Blaming others gets you absolutely nowhere in life. Truly.

Perhaps in SD's case "social skills" can be learned. That much I agree on. But I don't think being attractive to women is something that can be learned. Or, at least for some portion of the population it cannot be. Not every male paired off in the past, and not every male in wild mammal species pairs off. Why would human be the exception to this rule?

If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll put it this way: SD is 32 years old. How many 30+ year olds have you met who have been as bad with women as he is? I'm not even his age and I know only one person 25+ who meets similar criteria. That should tell you that something is very very wrong. Alcoholics and drug dealers get into relationships. Serial cheats, workaholics, abusive men, all get into relationships. Are you telling me that those types don't have psychological issues that are just as impairing (if not more so) than SD's alleged issues? I don't buy it.

As for the respect thing, I don't think SD's girl (D was here name right?) is going to lose any sleep over SD's animosity for her. I know I wouldn't lose any sleep over someone who disliked me for not returning their affections. If they threatened my life in any meaningful way then sure. Otherwise, I'm sure her life is rich enough and rewarding enough not to care.

July 17, 2012

Perhaps in SD's case "social skills" can be learned. That much I agree on.

OK, cool. I think that can help someone be attractive to women, based on my own desires as a woman and what other women seem to like is all. Bad social skills = pretty insta-turnoff to most girls. Good social skills = probably MORE success in dating than someone with bad social skills, all other factors relatively equal. That's all I'm saying. Sitting around moaning about your bad luck or your height or whatever never got anyone far in life, and plenty of guys SD's height have better success than he does. I would wager more men his height do well than men with his poor social skills. I'd seriously put money on that, if we could actually track it.

But I don't think being attractive to women is something that can be learned. Or, at least for some portion of the population it cannot be. Not every male paired off in the past, and not every male in wild mammal species pairs off. Why would human be the exception to this rule?

I agree that in the end he may not succeed just on the basis of 'some people don't'. That could be true of anyone. But to me saying you WON'T succeed is pretty pointless, unless you really are going to give up wanting it. If you want something, better to at least increase your chances of success by the means available to you -- if you have a lot of room to improve in any one area, all the better! That means you have a greater shot at turning your luck around because there's a lot of untapped potential.

If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll put it this way: SD is 32 years old. How many 30+ year olds have you met who have been as bad with women as he is? I'm not even his age and I know only one person 25+ who meets similar criteria. That should tell you that something is very very wrong.

I agree, though I think saying "something is very wrong" is a bit harsh. I'd say that it tells me he has some pretty big things to work through. I would say social skills are a huge chunk of that!

Alcoholics and drug dealers get into relationships. Serial cheats, workaholics, abusive men, all get into relationships. Are you telling me that those types don't have psychological issues that are just as impairing (if not more so) than SD's alleged issues? I don't buy it.

They don't have psychological issues that are impairing them in the same way as SD is all. I could get into an analysis of all those things, but at the end of the day, it wouldn't help SD fix his problems.

As for the respect thing, I don't think SD's girl (D was here name right?) is going to lose any sleep over SD's animosity for her. I know I wouldn't lose any sleep over someone who disliked me for not returning their affections. If they threatened my life in any meaningful way then sure. Otherwise, I'm sure her life is rich enough and rewarding enough not to care.

Right, I seriously doubt she cares. I'm not talking about what's good for her. I'm talking about what would be good for SD's personal growth and future success.

July 17, 2012

SD, Let's skip you getting a girlfriend for a minute....

Let's say you DID get a girlfriend. What would you do with her besides sex? I figure sex is a given, but other than that got any plans? I mean, you clearly have a big void in your life a gf will fill....right?

So, if you were granted your wish of your perfect girl ,what would you do to keep her?

July 17, 2012

They don't have psychological issues that are impairing them in the same way as SD is all. I could get into an analysis of all those things, but at the end of the day, it wouldn't help SD fix his problems.

Maybe. Maybe not. The larger point I was trying to make is that it's very very hard to go years on end without any kind of meaningful relationship. Some people even find themselves in relationships on accident. This reality cuts across all sorts of other factors including psychological issues, shyness, hobbies and interests and sometimes even cultural upbringing. So if someone does go years on end without success something beyond the usual should be suspect. Sometimes this is because you're in a particularly strange environment (like someone doing research in Antarctica for 10 years) but I'd wager that most of the time there's something wrong. IMO, this is probably genetic/biological, but it's definitely possible it's nurture related. Either way, fixing it will range from very very hard, to impossible.

July 17, 2012

Maybe. Maybe not. The larger point I was trying to make is that it's very very hard to go years on end without any kind of meaningful relationship. Some people even find themselves in relationships on accident. This reality cuts across all sorts of other factors including psychological issues, shyness, hobbies and interests and sometimes even cultural upbringing. So if someone does go years on end without success something beyond the usual should be suspect. Sometimes this is because you're in a particularly strange environment (like someone doing research in Antarctica for 10 years) but I'd wager that most of the time there's something wrong. IMO, this is probably genetic/biological, but it's definitely possible it's nurture related. Either way, fixing it will range from very very hard, to impossible.

This is why it always stays the same, because you guys believe that it's so "impossible".

July 17, 2012

This is why it always stays the same, because you guys believe that it's so "impossible".

Well to be fair to us, you have found yourself in much more appealing situations than we've ever been in. I mean didn't you turn down sex with a girl you met online? As much as I'm not all that sexual in nature, I still have never found myself in a position to turn down an offer. So as long as I've been alive it has been "impossible".

July 17, 2012

Well to be fair to us, you have found yourself in much more appealing situations than we've ever been in. I mean didn't you turn down sex with a girl you met online? As much as I'm not all that sexual in nature, I still have never found myself in a position to turn down an offer. So as long as I've been alive it has been "impossible".

I haven't "found" myself in more appealing situations. I put myself in more appealing situations. I don't even do that as much as I could, but I do it. I have been in a variety of scenarios and struck out just like you guys. I have worked to cultivate a different mindset though, hence why I view my encounters differently. You guys have to do the same. You have to put yourself in more situations. Risk being "creepy" if you have to. But that's how you get better, and how you learn how to handle disappointments.

By the way, I never really "turned her down". We did eventually link up briefly, and I gave her some brain food . But I put myself in that position......

July 17, 2012

I haven't "found" myself in more appealing situations. I put myself in more appealing situations. I don't even do that as much as I could, but I do it. I have been in a variety of scenarios and struck out just like you guys. I have worked to cultivate a different mindset though, hence why I view my encounters differently. You guys have to do the same. You have to put yourself in more situations. Risk being "creepy" if you have to. But that's how you get better, and how you learn how to handle disappointments.

By the way, I never really "turned her down". We did eventually link up briefly, and I gave her some brain food . But I put myself in that position......

Meh, I've done that before too, tried to put myself into situations to succeed. When you have enough women make it clear to you they don't wish to be around you socially, I think it's fairly clear the problem is you. Not something about you, but you generally.

July 17, 2012

Meh, I've done that before too, tried to put myself into situations to succeed. When you have enough women make it clear to you they don't wish to be around you socially, I think it's fairly clear the problem is you. Not something about you, but you generally.

You have to keep doing it. This is the point. The most successful people are people who keep going regardless. There are people who are naturally more talented than I who people will never hear of, because they haven't kept going in whatever it is they were doing.

If I stopped putting myself in those situations after all the times I made myself look like a twat, I would never have even got that BJ. I would never have gotten the few opportunities that I have had. I would never have been approached. Nothing would happen. I would have been on loveshy.com bitching about every girl in the world having too high standards and only liking ripped guys like some of the guys do on here these days.

July 17, 2012

This is why it always stays the same, because you guys believe that it's so "impossible".

A person can live for 40 days without food, 3 days without water, 4 minutes without oxygen... but no one, NOT ANYONE, can live for ONE SECOND without HOPE.

People who can't or refuse to see the light at the end of the tunnel are those who remain stuck in their ruts. That's why I live by this quote:

Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible.

July 17, 2012

I'll start off by saying in no way am I trying to tear down SomeDude. I'm trying to provide him with something he might not be aware of, with personal examples from my own life. This is meant to help and inform, not to tear down his character or anything. Just some food for thought.

One thing we can't tell about SomeDude for certain is his body language, tone and facial expressions. Because well obviously this is a message board. It has been suggested in the past that because he lacks social understanding, he gives off wrong vibes, says wrong things, or says it the wrong way. I know someone in real life like this, and when I read SomeDude's posts he reminds me of this fella named Richard.

Richard used to be in my small group. He is a very odd cat. I got nothing against odd cats. They can be interesting characters. However, Richard isn't just an odd cat. He's also disrespectful of people's boundaries, he has the worst social filter I've ever seen, and he's incredibly awkward in social situations.

I read this from SomeDude last night in a thread about incest in General Discussion forum

It's probably a good thing that I don't have a sister.

Seriously? OK, I understand he may say "I was only kidding, gosh!" but that's simply something you don't kid about, not even on a message board. Like, it's just one of those thoughts you shouldn't entertain or even touch, even for a chuckle. It's just... wrong, on so many levels.

Reading that instantly brought Richard back to memory.

My group used to partner with this married couples group. And every other Friday my group would babysit the married couples' kids, so that they can enjoy Date Night. Of course, the parents requested that each of us be background checked first.

During a potluck, Richard was sitting with us and some of the husband fathers. He said this:

"You know, some people think I'm weird. I don't believe that"

It was just so awkward it made everyone go O_o like why would you even say that? It also painted him in a negative light right away

The kicker though was when he said this:

"I like kids. You know why? Because you can say and do anything with them, and they won't complain. You can't hug a woman like you can a kid for example"

It was his facial expression, tone, and body language that instantly creeped all of us out. Later that week, one of the fathers and I had a private lunch where he told me, candidly,

"I'm not so sure on that Richard guy. I don't want him around my kids."

I later spoke to Richard 1 on 1 about his choice of words, his behavior and such. He got frustrated and claimed that this has happened to him for the last 10 years, and how no one understands him, and how everyone "paints him out to be this creeper." Then he stormed out of the restaurant.

He's also in his 30s. He has no real friends. Everywhere he goes, he creates this awkward vibe (did I mention he also was hitting on my friend's GF even after he was told to stop? LOL). He severely lacked boundaries and social understanding. Really reminds me of SomeDude.

Again

It's probably a good thing that I don't have a sister.

makes me wonder if he says stuff he shouldn't say in real life. Like the breast comment to Dani on the final hang out that she found offensive.

Some guys just don't know they give off a less than positive vibe. After so many years, the common denominator aren't the people who avoid you, it's probably right there in the mirror.

July 17, 2012

When I knew her, Dani was the most important person in the world to me. So no, back then, she was not less than human to me.

What I did say is "Right now, she is less than human to me." I also established the context in my previous post on how we haven't had any contact in the past six months and ended on bad terms. She is somebody that I am still very bitter about and have very strong and mixed feelings for. If I met her tomorrow, I don't know if I should hug her or punch her. Obviously there is a lot of left over anger.

The fact that you now refer to her as less than human, even within your own thoughts, and have such anger about her, because she wouldn't date you, after a situation you were responsible for and where she did not act maliciously from what you've said, is problematic. You swing between idolization and deep hatred, and that shows that you simply do not see her for the complicated and normal person that she is, only as your failure, your rejection, and the pinnacle of your dream. The fact is, after only two years and hanging out here and there, she should not even remotely be the most important person in the world to you. You turned her into a false idol.

In my experiences/beliefs, the only types of love are family love and romantic love. I've never had a friend that I felt was close enough to love, nor felt that a friend ever loved me.

This, I feel for you. Family love, as dyfunctional and as fulfilling as it can be, is bound in blood. Raised in it, there's almost an obligation there. Closeness and love between friends is a choice, and when you find the real thing, which is not easy either, it's with the knowledge that it is solid and reliable. There are no attraction chemicals clouding the relationship either. So if you haven't had this, you're missing out, and it's one reason you have trouble with relationships.

As for doing things for her, I wanted her to like me. So everything I did, I did with the intention of trying to get her to like me. I never asked for a reward, all I wanted was for her to like me and spend more time with me. So it only made sense to try and make her happy.

You're fooling yourself a little here. Yes you wanted her to like you and spend time with you. This would be the same for any friend. But the difference with you is that you wanted her to become attracted to you and become your girlfriend. That was your reward, and when it became clear you weren't going to get that, you set fire to that bridge and ensured there was no way you guys were going back. What happened to just liking you and hanging out with you there?

Frankly, the only way to do a truly selfless act and expect nothing back from the other person at all, is to do or give them something you know they will not like. I am not monstrous in my desire, but people are trying to paint me as one because I have desire, and that's just BS.
Of course not.

A selfless act is something you do with no thought of reward from the other person, not even their gratitude. If you feel some small bit of pleasure on your own end, I don't think that invalidates your act. It's what you expect from the other person that matters, and if their response to you changes what you feel about your act, then it wasn't selfless. You ever have a friend wake you in the middle of the night because they're stranded and need a ride? You sure as hell don't want to get up and go, but you do because they're your friend and they need you and you're operating by your own moral code. And you don't want their money, or their extreme gratitude, or the promise of a payback. And if in the future they never do anything like that for you even when you need it, you shrug your shoulders and move on.

It seems that all your actions are calculated and have strings to them, which is why is so upsets you when people, mostly women, don't respond the way you intended. If you have performed a selfless act, and act done just for the act's sake, you would understand the difference.

I think your desire for a girlfriend has taken over many parts of your life, and in that sense it is monstrous because it ovewhelms you and pushes your into depressive, obsessive thoughts. Do you disagree?

You made it seem that my character is so lacking that the only way I can hope to get a woman is if I made a ton of money, had a glamorous job or won the lottery. Was that your intention?

My point is that you have character flaws. We all do, and we should all try to be aware of them. Character isn't something static that you're just born with, like the nose on your face. It grows, breaks down, and is rebuilt with everything we think and do. Again, you're too polarizing, all or nothing with this. Right now you have trouble connecting with people. That is a flaw. You don't understand them and have no idea how these relationships work (this thread is an exact example of an aspect of that!) and that is also a flaw.

As you are now, depressed, angry, unable to empathize, unable to forge deep, meaningful connections with other people, man or woman, how can you be in a healthy, mutually fulfilling relationship? As other people have said, if you just want to date any woman, then just go out and hit on a million of them and one is bound to stick for however long. If you want a good, solid, relationship with someone who will treat you well and stick with you through good and bad then you're going to have to do more than that. Frankly, wealth and glamour wouldn't guarantee getting a good relationship either, only that that it's easier to find someone hot who is willing to be with you as long as they are getting their share of the wealth and glamour.

You don't need millions if you have the good qualities that would make someone happy to look past physical imperfections and a few character flaws. But you need to understand your good qualities and feel strongly about them, and you need to acknowledge those flaws and work on them too. That is the self esteem and the self confidence that people are always prattling on about. Not only do we need it in ourselves, we absolutely look for it in other people.

You should know yourself best, and I'm only going by what I've read on the internet, so tell me what are your great qualities that set you apart from other people, that would make someone look at you and your character and choose you over others?

July 18, 2012

I just wanted to say "thank you" to all the people who have contributed to this thread - it is a goldmine.

Somedude81 and all the frustrated out there, this goes out to you.

I'm 29 and a 9 months recovering AFC (average frustrated chump for those who don't know.) When I broke up with "that girl" - the one that clearly shows you, gotta change or else - I totally fell off track and wasted 6 months of my life in self pity and misery. When I look back at the thread I made half a year ago in "Coping" I now see how hard I was torturing myself through the years in dealing with women and dating, all reflected in one post. People's replies really struck a chord in me.

My success with women gradually increased when I stopped taking everything in life so seriously (except my career and health), got new clothes, put myself out there online and in person to find/get dates and started working out. Lifting weights is one of the best things a man can do for himself. I cannot describe how much any kind of regular exercise will have an impact on your life, your moods and well-being. There were alot of embarrasing mistakes I've made in catching up on "this dating thing" - but I'm not going to let it stop me because it's too much fun! I've had more dates this year than in my last 10 combined. My new interest is going out to local bars, clubs and singles events because I wasn't attracting the girls I really wanted from online dating. I don't even care or feel self-concious about going out by myself. One day, I simply decided I was through with spending Friday nights alone.

Now it's gone to the point where I won't refer to women as b--ches anymore because I see them in a different moon... I learned to accept their crazy, irrational, illogical "sea-of-emotion-bubbling-over" ways. :pThese things now drive me "crazy in love" with them instead of me getting pissed off about them!

It’s great that you managed to turn things around. When did you start getting some success? Was there anything you did?

For the record, I have tried going out to bars and clubs alone. My biggest issue with that type of life is that I’m not really a night person. I don’t like being out past 10 unless I’m actually with somebody.

I have lifted weights for a while and have some muscle to show for it, but it hasn’t affected my moods at all. My job is also pretty physical and I’m often sore the next day.

With friends and social circles, I can relate where you're coming from. I only have a handful of friends, in fact I mainly chill with one person who I consider my longtime best friend. I'm very selective in who I spend my time with. However, I've also accepted that throughout my life, I tended to close myself off from people, in fear of being hurt. Somedude81, you need to just get over yourself because you are not alone! Pain and heartbreak of the darkest sort, is universal and all too common among us guys. Without others to talk to about what I went through I would never be here, writing this post, trying to help you out too. You have a treasure trove of human knowledge wealth here. I don't even know these people, but I'd gladly be friendly with them and have a drink in real life. The advice contained in this topic is priceless.

The thing is, I'm not closing myself off to other people. I'm just not an outgoing guy and I've never been good at making friends with other men. All the friendships in my life just happened.

I tried to make friends with a guy I was in a class group with and after trying to make plans to hang out a few times I just gave up. I'm not going to put more effort into trying to make a guy friend then I will in chasing a woman.

You have to accept that things you learn in life will change, and your old ways will get outdated, just like computer hardware. Rejection will test how much of a man you are or not, if you let it get to you then you lose! It's simple as that. Never let anything not in your control, control you - it's like a dog chasing it's own tail. Looks silly doesn't it?

That sounds so much easier than it really is.

I don't even know how to start having that mindset. Right now all I feel is that I'm at the mercy of fates whims.

If I could recommend three books to you that had the biggest impact on my own turnaround, they would be: "Attraction Isnt A Choice" and "Double Your Dating" by David DeAngelo and "Way Of The Superior Man" by David Deida. "Class A chit" as Tony Montana would say. The DeAngelo stuff will turn your life upside down and that goes out to all the AFCs who need a reality check + slap in the face in one shot.

I've read Double Your Dating back when it was new. I don't think I've read the other two. Most PUA material has done nothing for me and I have read a lot, seen many moves, been to a couple of seminars, joined a lair and paid for a bootcamp and here I am making threads like this.

Now that I have some time until school starts, I can read some more material and I'll check out what you recommended.

Sex and dating is not this "Holy Grail" thing that frustrated dudes make it out to be... in fact it's that exact way of thinking about it that revolts women!

Such a common statement.

The problem with that statement is that it's almost like telling a 16 year old kid that really wants his license and to go driving around, that having a car

is nothing special.

BTW, how can that way of thinking revolt women? It's not like I'm ever going to tell somebody how desperate I really am.

The best advice I got from one of my dearest female friends is simply, "Smile"...
Why is something so simple, so effective? Because it's the little things like that, which go a long way into giving off a better impression towards people - especially the ladies you find attractive.

Oh! And here I was thinking that the Batman scowl would turn everybody on.

Girls can sense when you are self-concious about your own hangups, like a Doberman can smell a car thief.
They say that things that do not grow are dead - will you choose to be dead, or alive man? I wish you the best in your journey.

Peace
- DreamerDeceiver

PS: If you Google "attraction isn't a choice free download" you can find a PDF copy of it online. It's the fourth link that says "Important".

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think most of you people on here are way too optimistic about SD being able to change. This is something biological/genetic that causes some guys not to "get it" when it comes to courting rituals. It can't really be fixed.

I also think it's kind of an unfair imposition to expect people to think kindly of those who don't return their affections. As long as you don't act on that animosity I really don't see the issue.

That is something that I'm worried about, if I can actually change into what I need to be. Because of my looks the only thing that I can use to try and attract a woman is my charm and personality. It should be obvious why I have very little hope.

OK, cool. I think that can help someone be attractive to women, based on my own desires as a woman and what other women seem to like is all. Bad social skills = pretty insta-turnoff to most girls. Good social skills = probably MORE success in dating than someone with bad social skills, all other factors relatively equal.

The term social skills is incredibly broad.

Can you narrow it into something more tangible?

SD, Let's skip you getting a girlfriend for a minute....

Let's say you DID get a girlfriend. What would you do with her besides sex? I figure sex is a given, but other than that got any plans? I mean, you clearly have a big void in your life a gf will fill....right?

There are a lot of things I'd like to do and places to go once I have a girlfriend.

It's more than just staying at home having sex and playing video games.

So, if you were granted your wish of your perfect girl ,what would you do to keep her?

Keep her, so she doesn't run away? I guess buy a leash?

Maybe. Maybe not. The larger point I was trying to make is that it's very very hard to go years on end without any kind of meaningful relationship. Some people even find themselves in relationships on accident. This reality cuts across all sorts of other factors including psychological issues, shyness, hobbies and interests and sometimes even cultural upbringing. So if someone does go years on end without success something beyond the usual should be suspect. Sometimes this is because you're in a particularly strange environment (like someone doing research in Antarctica for 10 years) but I'd wager that most of the time there's something wrong. IMO, this is probably genetic/biological, but it's definitely possible it's nurture related. Either way, fixing it will range from very very hard, to impossible.

Oh I do believe that there is something very wrong with me. I also feel that lots of thing are beyond my control and I was never given a fair chance. I have several handicaps that make getting a girl more difficult and I have yet to be able to overcome them.

July 18, 2012

I'll start off by saying in no way am I trying to tear down SomeDude. I'm trying to provide him with something he might not be aware of, with personal examples from my own life. This is meant to help and inform, not to tear down his character or anything. Just some food for thought.

One thing we can't tell about SomeDude for certain is his body language, tone and facial expressions. Because well obviously this is a message board. It has been suggested in the past that because he lacks social understanding, he gives off wrong vibes, says wrong things, or says it the wrong way. I know someone in real life like this, and when I read SomeDude's posts he reminds me of this fella named Richard.

Richard used to be in my small group. He is a very odd cat. I got nothing against odd cats. They can be interesting characters. However, Richard isn't just an odd cat. He's also disrespectful of people's boundaries, he has the worst social filter I've ever seen, and he's incredibly awkward in social situations.

I read this from SomeDude last night in a thread about incest in General Discussion forum

SD "It's probably a good thing that I don't have a sister."

Seriously? OK, I understand he may say "I was only kidding, gosh!" but that's simply something you don't kid about, not even on a message board. Like, it's just one of those thoughts you shouldn't entertain or even touch, even for a chuckle. It's just... wrong, on so many levels.

It was a joke that was meant to be creepy.

If I said that in mixed company, I can imagine a girl going, "Ew, SD you're gross" and I'd just burst out laughing. Anybody who still thought I was serious needs to learn a few things about humor and social situations.

Reading that instantly brought Richard back to memory.

My group used to partner with this married couples group. And every other Friday my group would babysit the married couples' kids, so that they can enjoy Date Night. Of course, the parents requested that each of us be background checked first.

During a potluck, Richard was sitting with us and some of the husband fathers. He said this:

"You know, some people think I'm weird. I don't believe that"

It was just so awkward it made everyone go O_o like why would you even say that? It also painted him in a negative light right away

The kicker though was when he said this:

"I like kids. You know why? Because you can say and do anything with them, and they won't complain. You can't hug a woman like you can a kid for example"

Yeah those statements are pretty weird and devoid of any humor. Richard sounds like a very awkward guy.

In case you were thinking so, I am nothing like him.

It was his facial expression, tone, and body language that instantly creeped all of us out. Later that week, one of the fathers and I had a private lunch where he told me, candidly,

"I'm not so sure on that Richard guy. I don't want him around my kids."

I later spoke to Richard 1 on 1 about his choice of words, his behavior and such. He got frustrated and claimed that this has happened to him for the last 10 years, and how no one understands him, and how everyone "paints him out to be this creeper." Then he stormed out of the restaurant.

He's also in his 30s. He has no real friends. Everywhere he goes, he creates this awkward vibe (did I mention he also was hitting on my friend's GF even after he was told to stop? LOL). He severely lacked boundaries and social understanding. Really reminds me of SomeDude.

If you ever met me in real life you would know how wrong that statement is.

makes me wonder if he says stuff he shouldn't say in real life. Like the breast comment to Dani on the final hang out that she found offensive.

Hah! That again!

Hey Pirouette, if you read this, can you comment on this part?

The last day that Dani and I hung out, we were walking around campus and checking out the little clothing and accessory stands outside. We went to a little T-shirt stand and she found a shirt that she liked and said something about what type to get, a v-neck or a regular style. I jokingly responded that she should get one that shows some cleavage. She didn't say anything and once of us changed the subject then we left the stand a couple minutes later.

While we were walking she pulled me aside and told me that I embarrassed her in-front of the clerk. The only people in the "tent" were me her and the guy who was working there. I forgot how that conversation went, but she was annoyed and I honestly apologized to her and then everything was fine for about an hour till we went to the counseling office and I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Getting back to Dani and her breasts. That was not the first time we had talked about them.

Several months before that we went to a mall, I asked her why she doesn't wear more girly shirts instead of t-shirts and she replied "It's because my chest is too big." I said that she should tie them down then and she said that it would be painful. Another time was we were at the beach walking on the trail and somehow the topic of old people and sagging body parts came up and she said something about her breasts are going to really sag and I joked that they would go down to her knees and she said, "At that point I'd just cut them off."

So it's my belief, that she would have had no issue at all with the cleavage comment if I had said that when it was just the two of us. But the fact that somebody else was what made her upset.

The fact that you now refer to her as less than human, even within your own thoughts, and have such anger about her, because she wouldn't date you, after a situation you were responsible for and where she did not act maliciously from what you've said, is problematic. You swing between idolization and deep hatred, and that shows that you simply do not see her for the complicated and normal person that she is, only as your failure, your rejection, and the pinnacle of your dream. The fact is, after only two years and hanging out here and there, she should not even remotely be the most important person in the world to you. You turned her into a false idol.

Who should be more important? My parents? My brothers? Other members of my family? She was the closest "friend" I had in a while.

This, I feel for you. Family love, as dyfunctional and as fulfilling as it can be, is bound in blood. Raised in it, there's almost an obligation there. Closeness and love between friends is a choice, and when you find the real thing, which is not easy either, it's with the knowledge that it is solid and reliable. There are no attraction chemicals clouding the relationship either. So if you haven't had this, you're missing out, and it's one reason you have trouble with relationships.

That's one thing that does make me feel like a failure. That I haven't been able to actually to make anybody care about me. The only people that really give a damn about me are my family, and they have to love me, they're family. And with my family, you'd have to be a huge screw-up to make them stop loving you. It's a very sad thought that if I had a funeral tomorrow, only my family would be there.

You're fooling yourself a little here. Yes you wanted her to like you and spend time with you. This would be the same for any friend. But the difference with you is that you wanted her to become attracted to you and become your girlfriend. That was your reward, and when it became clear you weren't going to get that, you set fire to that bridge and ensured there was no way you guys were going back. What happened to just liking you and hanging out with you there?

Set fire to the bridge? No she was the one ended everything and refused to answer any of my class, texts or emails. I knew she was reading them to because I messaged her on Facebook asking her to block me and she did. And before you ask, I deleted all of her contact info months ago. The only way I can get a hold of her is if I knocked on her door.

A selfless act is something you do with no thought of reward from the other person, not even their gratitude. If you feel some small bit of pleasure on your own end, I don't think that invalidates your act. It's what you expect from the other person that matters, and if their response to you changes what you feel about your act, then it wasn't selfless. You ever have a friend wake you in the middle of the night because they're stranded and need a ride? You sure as hell don't want to get up and go, but you do because they're your friend and they need you and you're operating by your own moral code. And you don't want their money, or their extreme gratitude, or the promise of a payback. And if in the future they never do anything like that for you even when you need it, you shrug your shoulders and move on.

Nope, I set my phone to silent after 10

Heh no, I've never had a friend ask anything like that of me..

I think your desire for a girlfriend has taken over many parts of your life, and in that sense it is monstrous because it ovewhelms you and pushes your into depressive, obsessive thoughts. Do you disagree?

Oh so that's what you meant by monstrous.

Yes my thoughts have been very obsessive and have overwhelmed me. It's one of, if not the main reason why I'm doing bad in school. Hell I failed Japanese when I was taking it with Dani because I was constantly thinking of her I never paid attention in class and had trouble doing the homework because I just couldn't focus.

Yes it's not a good thing that I'm so focused on trying to get a girl that affects my life in negative ways. Though what can I do about it?

As you are now, depressed, angry, unable to empathize, unable to forge deep, meaningful connections with other people, man or woman, how can you be in a healthy, mutually fulfilling relationship?

There really is only one way to find out.

BTW, do you feel that I didn't want to forge a deep meaningful connection with Danielle? Or that I wouldn't want to forge one with any woman that I liked?

As other people have said, if you just want to date any woman, then just go out and hit on a million of them and one is bound to stick for however long.

Getting rejected a million times would destroy my confidence. I don't ask out random girls because I don't like getting rejected and I at least want to like somebody a bit first, before I ask them out.

If you want a good, solid, relationship with someone who will treat you well and stick with you through good and bad then you're going to have to do more than that.

A good solid relationship with somebody who will stick with me through the good and bad is more than I can ask for right now. At this point I just want to know what it's like to be in a relationship. I also expect to get dumped fairly early on by my first girlfriend. But I will gain many things from the whole experience so it will be worth it and I can apply what I learned to the next one.

You should know yourself best, and I'm only going by what I've read on the internet, so tell me what are your great qualities that set you apart from other people, that would make someone look at you and your character and choose you over others?

I don't know if I have any great qualities that set me apart. The only thing I've been told is that I have a good sense of humor.

Personally, I don't think I have anything about me that would make a girl choose me above somebody else. Add that to fact that I'm physically below average with being a 5'6 white guy, who also struggles with depression and am not outgoing, it's no wonder that I've done horribly with women.

July 18, 2012

For the record, I have tried going out to bars and clubs alone. My biggest issue with that type of life is that I’m not really a night person. I don’t like being out past 10 unless I’m actually with somebody.

I have lifted weights for a while and have some muscle to show for it, but it hasn’t affected my moods at all. My job is also pretty physical and I’m often sore the next day.

The two quotes above show that you won't step out of your comfort zone. Is it because your lazy or afraid, and if your afraid why?

BTW, how can that way of thinking revolt women? It's not like I'm ever going to tell somebody how desperate I really am.

You don't need to tell someone, they can sense it.

Mental state almost always shows through in how you present yourself & act around others.

Oh I do believe that there is something very wrong with me. I also feel that lots of thing are beyond my control and I was never given a fair chance. I have several handicaps that make getting a girl more difficult and I have yet to be able to overcome them.

This is defeatist bs. Where you coddled as a child? And I'm being serious, because this is the problem with the only guy I know like you?

July 18, 2012

Following quotes are all from Somedude81.

It’s great that you managed to turn things around. When did you start getting some success? Was there anything you did?

Yes, I did everything I could! I stopped having a bad self-defeatist attitude towards women. I attempted to get numbers, put alot of work into my appearance, body language, joining a gym to start weightlifitng, seeking out social groups I liked, dove into online dating, started flirting with ladies at grocery stores/laundy/malls/the bank/tech support agents/cashiers/waitresses, everywhere while I was out and about. Alot of things that I never did before that meant I had to break out of my comfort zone. I would seek opportunities to talk to women, whether I thought they were attractive or not, without a care in the world.

This all took place over a period of 9 months and I consider it far from over.

For the record, I have tried going out to bars and clubs alone. My biggest issue with that type of life is that I’m not really a night person. I don’t like being out past 10 unless I’m actually with somebody.

Past 10 is when the fun really starts! You can spare one or two nights a week on this, believe me. The funny thing is how you instantly placed going to bars and clubs as a "type of life" - you are overationalizing everything again.

I have lifted weights for a while and have some muscle to show for it, but it hasn’t affected my moods at all. My job is also pretty physical and I’m often sore the next day. The thing is, I'm not closing myself off to other people. I'm just not an outgoing guy and I've never been good at making friends with other men. All the friendships in my life just happened.

Yes but did you take lifting weights to improve yourself - all the way - or just took it casually? You need to hire a personal trainer and get into the gym at least twice a week for an hour and do cardio (aka running) on your days off. A personal trainer will help you look the way you want. Did you do squats? Deadlifts? Bench presses? Not just dumbell and bicep curls. Once you feel that testosterone pumping into your male body from real weightlifting you will never want to stop.

That sounds so much easier than it really is. I don't even know how to start having that mindset. Right now all I feel is that I'm at the mercy of fates whims.

It's alot easier than it really is. You are what you think. If you keep thinking you're a loser "not an outgoing guy who can't make friends" you will eventually become one. I realised I had to change because my old ways of thinking about women and dating was simply, obsolete and too old fashioned.

I've read Double Your Dating back when it was new. I don't think I've read the other two. Most PUA material has done nothing for me and I have read a lot, seen many moves, been to a couple of seminars, joined a lair and paid for a bootcamp and here I am making threads like this.
Now that I have some time until school starts, I can read some more material and I'll check out what you recommended.

You started this whole topic with the question "how does this dating and sex thing actually work?" When I asked myself the same question I read "Attraction Isn't A Choice" and I got it. His stuff is worlds beyond PUA which is why it "clicked" with me. You probably kept thinking "naw this doesn't apply to me..." while you were reading his original book, the same way you are treating everyone's advice here.

If you really assimilated that knowledge in DYD you would have seen the fact this girl you always talk about brought another guy along on your "date", was an instant fail waiting to happen. If you wanted to hang out with her alone why didn't you just tell her you wanted that, and if the other guy didn't GTFO you'd leave?

Take it from me, being "nice" is overrated. I lost the "hottest" and most compatible woman I ever met in my life, from being "nice." That is what set this all off for me.

Put your ego aside and really pay attention to what guys like DeAngelo and people in this forum are saying. I have a hard time believing you spent money on bootcamps and seminars etc., and still don't understand this stuff!

Such a common statement. The problem with that statement is that it's almost like telling a 16 year old kid that really wants his license and to go driving around, that having a car is nothing special.
BTW, how can that way of thinking revolt women? It's not like I'm ever going to tell somebody how desperate I really am.

Do you think women view sex and dating as a big, big deal like some guys do? No because they have options and get dates all the time. You have to take that same attitude and put yourself on a pedestal. The analogy you present is light years away from anything having to do with what women want or need out of a man. A woman can tell how desperate/pathetic vs strong mentally + emotionally confident a guy is just by their body language, how they talk and act in person. They are "socially tuned" in a way guys are not. You just don't understand but worse, you won't accept the differences between men and women. You just expect all women and people to like you and get frustrated when they don't. It's called solipsism and getting rid of that mindset from me led to a big breakthrough in dealing with dating. Seriously, some guys act like the woman of their dreams will just show up and spread their legs for them right away.

You can be whatever you want to be if you just believe in yourself. And it's clear that you don't. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can research "social skills" and then use critical thinking to help improve yourself. Here's one idea I have for you. Why don't you just sign up on meetup.com and join some of the video game social groups they have there? There are alot in SoCal. You have to put in the effort, man.

Oh! And here I was thinking that the Batman scowl would turn everybody on.

This was about me suggesting that you simply smile more. I dare you to smile at random women you see throughout the day, and keep eye contact with them - believe me they will smile back. Especially if you have muscle like you claim.

Getting rejected a million times would destroy my confidence. I don't ask out random girls because I don't like getting rejected and I at least want to like somebody a bit first, before I ask them out.

The folly of your logic is that you won't even bring yourself up to talk to "random girls" to get to know them a bit, to see if you'd like to ask them out.

You tie your self-worth to being/not-being rejected by women. The fear of failure clearly has you by the balls.

Keep on believing in this unconfidence about yourself and see where you will be in 10 years. Probably still posting on this thread about "that girl"...

And I'm outta here...

July 18, 2012

Hey Pirouette, if you read this, can you comment on this part?

The last day that Dani and I hung out, we were walking around campus and checking out the little clothing and accessory stands outside. We went to a little T-shirt stand and she found a shirt that she liked and said something about what type to get, a v-neck or a regular style. I jokingly responded that she should get one that shows some cleavage. She didn't say anything and once of us changed the subject then we left the stand a couple minutes later.

While we were walking she pulled me aside and told me that I embarrassed her in-front of the clerk. The only people in the "tent" were me her and the guy who was working there. I forgot how that conversation went, but she was annoyed and I honestly apologized to her and then everything was fine for about an hour till we went to the counseling office and I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Getting back to Dani and her breasts. That was not the first time we had talked about them.

Several months before that we went to a mall, I asked her why she doesn't wear more girly shirts instead of t-shirts and she replied "It's because my chest is too big." I said that she should tie them down then and she said that it would be painful. Another time was we were at the beach walking on the trail and somehow the topic of old people and sagging body parts came up and she said something about her breasts are going to really sag and I joked that they would go down to her knees and she said, "At that point I'd just cut them off."

So it's my belief, that she would have had no issue at all with the cleavage comment if I had said that when it was just the two of us. But the fact that somebody else was what made her upset.

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, but keep in mind that I am not her and I cannot truly know what was going on in her mind. This is how I would think if in a similar situation where I exploded like that.

She had decided to end the friendship with you because you both wanted drastically different things. She was tired of feeling pressured by your pursuit. Your comment on her cleavage, that you would then have the pleasure of looking at, was a reminder to her of the entire situation and your attraction to her. As a response to a single incident, yes she was blowing it out of proportion. As a culmination of all things, it was the last straw. It made her feel awkward considering everything else, and the fact that someone was there to witness her awkwardness made it doubly so.

Also, the earlier comments about her breast started where she volunteered information, and the context was decidedly unsexy, cutting off, sag, binding, etc.

Who should be more important? My parents? My brothers? Other members of my family? She was the closest "friend" I had in a while.
That's one thing that does make me feel like a failure. That I haven't been able to actually to make anybody care about me. The only people that really give a damn about me are my family, and they have to love me, they're family. And with my family, you'd have to be a huge screw-up to make them stop loving you. It's a very sad thought that if I had a funeral tomorrow, only my family would be there.

Yes, absolutely your family should be more important than someone you knew for two years and disappeared like they were never there. Those of us who have socialized a lot, and had friendships and dated, most come to realize that a lot of these people come and go in your life. The ones who will love you, that you love in return and can count on for years to come are few and far between. They are the ones that deserve to be the most important to you, because you will be the most important to them.

The fact that your family would be at your funeral is more than a lot of other people would have, so count yourself lucky in that respect. Have you ever spoken frankly to your family about your problems? Maybe a close family member around your age can offer you some insight, and help you to socialize. And they'll still love you regardless because their family!

Set fire to the bridge? No she was the one ended everything and refused to answer any of my class, texts or emails. I knew she was reading them to because I messaged her on Facebook asking her to block me and she did. And before you ask, I deleted all of her contact info months ago. The only way I can get a hold of her is if I knocked on her door.

I was under the impression that is was a mutual blowup that ended with you refusing to talk to her ever again. So if she messaged you one day all casual like asking how you are, what would you do?

Heh no, I've never had a friend ask anything like that of me..

I think you still have a lot to learn about how to be around other people and the give and take that is involved. I know it's difficult for you to gain that experience when other people around you just don't seem receptive. Have you thought about other member's suggestions of meetup groups, meetings for singles, or even volunteering at a worthy cause? The people you meet at volunteer should be failrly friendly with generous hearts.

Oh so that's what you meant by monstrous.

Yes my thoughts have been very obsessive and have overwhelmed me. It's one of, if not the main reason why I'm doing bad in school. Hell I failed Japanese when I was taking it with Dani because I was constantly thinking of her I never paid attention in class and had trouble doing the homework because I just couldn't focus.

Yes it's not a good thing that I'm so focused on trying to get a girl that affects my life in negative ways. Though what can I do about it?

In some part of your mind, you need to realize and really internalize that doing well at school and securing your future is more important than getting someone to date you. Think about it logically. Get a good education with good credentials. Raise your confidence and it looks good to your peers. Get a good job. Raise your confidence even more and look even better to your peers, and have money to do all the things you want to do. Not succeeding at other aspects of your life is a detriment to getting a woman. If you need to make that your mantra in order to focus on doing well at school and getting a job, do it. Once you start having successes in things other than dating, you'll find that it snowballs and your whole mindset can turn around.

BTW, do you feel that I didn't want to forge a deep meaningful connection with Danielle? Or that I wouldn't want to forge one with any woman that I liked?

I know you wanted to. The problem is that you couldn't because you need the other person's consent and their equal effort. For some reason, the way you're interacting with them isn't enticing them to make that investment. Only you can make the true assessment why.

Getting rejected a million times would destroy my confidence. I don't ask out random girls because I don't like getting rejected and I at least want to like somebody a bit first, before I ask them out.

That is completely fine if that's how you want to do it. You want to like somebody a bit first, but the other half of that is that they have to like you a bit first too before you go out. And then on that date, you both are basically selling yourself to each other, so you have to make sure you have something worth buying into. You're also free to walk away if you aren't further interested in what they have to offer.

A good solid relationship with somebody who will stick with me through the good and bad is more than I can ask for right now. At this point I just want to know what it's like to be in a relationship. I also expect to get dumped fairly early on by my first girlfriend. But I will gain many things from the whole experience so it will be worth it and I can apply what I learned to the next one.

I think it will be hard for you to jump into a romantic relationship at this point, even if it's short-lived as you predict. That's why so many people are telling you try friendships first because they teach you a heck of a lot about getting along with other people without the added pressure of maintaining attraction. I can't speak for everyone but there's no way I'd date someone who I couldn't be friends with, that I didn't find interesting with a good mind, that I didn't think was a decent guy who knows how to have my kind of fun, and was unselfish.

I don't know if I have any great qualities that set me apart. The only thing I've been told is that I have a good sense of humor.

Personally, I don't think I have anything about me that would make a girl choose me above somebody else. Add that to fact that I'm physically below average with being a 5'6 white guy, who also struggles with depression and am not outgoing, it's no wonder that I've done horribly with women.

If this is what you think about yourself, then the dating and sex thing and why it's not happening for you isn't much of a mystery, is it?

Forget about the height thing, because that definitely is something you can't change. There may be some women not willing to date men at your height, but there are plenty that will. Look around outside and you'll see some real life examples.

As for the rest, they can be changed. It may not feel like you can, but logically you should acknowledge that it is possible. And that the possibility exists should give you hope and determination. Until you can do this, your life will remain the same.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Pirouette

July 18, 2012

..For the record, I have tried going out to bars and clubs alone. My biggest issue with that type of life is that I’m not really a night person. I don’t like being out past 10 unless I’m actually with somebody.

I know you probably dont want a woohoo girl but its going to help for most girls that you try to convey that you are a fun guy. SD you are far from old yet to be watch checking at 10. (often that was when I was just getting into town at night).

As someone else said, after 10 is when the fun starts and the girls are liquored up. I get that its a little uncomfortable being on your own in a club, and you can't get plastered if you have to make your way home on your own, but you could get into the spirit more if you sleep in your car if you dont want to pay for cab ride home. Personally I had better luck at live music venues than I did at clubs (especially the 'beautiful people' ones). When you say bars/clubs did you mean such places, because if not try them, and I dont mean some suburban place with crappy covers band. At least there a guy on his own blends in with the crowd and does not look awkward on his own. Try put the feelers out for anyone else to go with, because you will be more comfortable + its easier to chat to girls then.

One other thing...have you experimented with your look at all in the last 8 yrs...I mean style of clothing, man jewellery, growing your hair long or cutting it real short or growing side burns, or soul patch?

July 18, 2012

The last day that Dani and I hung out, we were walking around campus and checking out the little clothing and accessory stands outside. We went to a little T-shirt stand and she found a shirt that she liked and said something about what type to get, a v-neck or a regular style. I jokingly responded that she should get one that shows some cleavage. She didn't say anything and once of us changed the subject then we left the stand a couple minutes later.

While we were walking she pulled me aside and told me that I embarrassed her in-front of the clerk. The only people in the "tent" were me her and the guy who was working there. I forgot how that conversation went, but she was annoyed and I honestly apologized to her and then everything was fine for about an hour till we went to the counseling office and I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Getting back to Dani and her breasts. That was not the first time we had talked about them.

Several months before that we went to a mall, I asked her why she doesn't wear more girly shirts instead of t-shirts and she replied "It's because my chest is too big." I said that she should tie them down then and she said that it would be painful. Another time was we were at the beach walking on the trail and somehow the topic of old people and sagging body parts came up and she said something about her breasts are going to really sag and I joked that they would go down to her knees and she said, "At that point I'd just cut them off."

So it's my belief, that she would have had no issue at all with the cleavage comment if I had said that when it was just the two of us. But the fact that somebody else was what made her upset.

Just for the record, IMO those were not very good conversations. I'm sure that all depends on the tone of voice, context of the relationship, etc, but barring very unlikely circumstances, those don't sound like very good things to say, to me. They weren't necessarily horrible, but they were just... I dunno how to put it. I can't imagine anyone I know ever falling for a guy who talks like that. I think she found some of your comments distasteful a long time ago, but being inexperienced herself, didn't know how to respond to them. I mean, we've all done that, especially when we were young - someone says something 'jokingly' and we think it's not very nice, but we don't know how to react so we just try to laugh them off.

July 18, 2012

Dreamer,

You deserve a gold star for trying to offer SomeDude some winning tips. The day he finally says "You know what? Alright, I'm down. BRING IT ON!" will be the day I'm a monkey's uncle

SomeDude, when will you drop the excuses, and just try (again)?

This is what a friend of mine wrote elsewhere on the topic of how he lost 120 pounds in the span of 18 months. I'm copying and pasting it below.

---

"Everyone's life is a work in progress and constantly evolving, but I'm currently doing the Insanity workout program + paying attention to what I eat.

I wouldn't recommend starting there.

My first step was just to park my car a mile away from my office, so that it would force me to walk at least two miles a day. That was it. No diet, no exercise. Just a simple first step.

Of course, once I started that as a habit and started seeing some results, it made me wonder what more I could do! And so I was able to build on the existing habit, gradually adding more.

I think the big reason that so many diet or workout regimes fail is because people take on too much all at once, feel overwhelmed, and then quit. Big changes in our lives don't feel natural, and so we rebel against them.

The better way to go about it is to start with just creating the habit. Once we have habits in our life, we tend to abide by them easily. And it's a ton easier to add to an existing habit than it is to try to create a totally new habit. For instance, if I check my e-mail every morning after brushing my teeth, it doesn't take much at all for me to one day add to that habit, perhaps by checking my e-mail AND THEN checking my favorite message board. Before I know it, the new habit is internalized, and each morning I check both my e-mail and my favorite message board.

It's the same with everything else, too. Get the habit started first, in some little, easy way that you can handle. Plan for the habit, make it happen at the same point in your day every day (for me, the habit happened right after I drove to work at the beginning of the day and right after I finished work at the end of the day -- for you, it can be anywhere: after breakfast, during your coffee break, etc. Choose a time that works, and get the habit started). Once the habit is established, then you can add to it without it feeling like you're doing something unpleasant! You build on the habit and make it a part of your life.

Just my thoughts anyway!"

----

That's why people keep telling you to start small. You are trying to go from low self-confidence, lack of social skills and no friends (with little understanding of the give-and-take process) to girlfriend. Sorry, it just doesn't happen this way. It never will for you, either.

Like my friend said, you're taking on way too much, and you're facing resistance (i.e. you're not getting the results you desire) because you're tackling step E when you haven't yet successfully passed steps A, B, and C!

Start with one small step in the right direction, and add on to that.

You can't sprint before you learn how to walk!

Right now all you're doing is nothing while having such an impossible goal (going from loner with no social skills to having a GF) that you're bound to fail, and when you do, you blame it on life and validate yourself in not putting in any effort since it's "impossible" and "out of your control." Well, isn't that just a convenient excuse for you not to try at all? It's a vicious cycle you've put yourself in for far too long now. Change soon, or continue to self-destruct. Your choice. Your lifestyle is too safe, and I think deep down you secretly "enjoy" it in a way. It's comforting if only because it's familiar and it doesn't necessarily "hurt." At least, it hurts LESS than the fear of putting yourself out there into the unknown, uncharted waters of you know, a genuine consistent effort. However, the older you get, the more regrets you are gonna have, if you don't put in some real effort to change in the forseeable future.

At almost 31 you still feel young (enough).

But if you're in the same situation 5 years later at 36, you're going to really hurt, trust me. Please get some help, because I don't think you can turn your life around on your own. You will need a life coach of sorts to help you along. Almost like the Army mindset. Break you down, and completely rebuild you, help you rewire your ways of thinking and tearing down strongholds that have held you back from living the kind of victorious life you should be living.

You've caught yourself in a web; you will need a helping hand to help pull you out. Drop your ego. Drop your logic, because at this point your mind is not thinking very logically. Just drop any doubt you have and go find resources in your area that can help you find the healing you so desperately need.

For the record, we all need help and healing. It doesn't make you a "loser" or "lame" or whatever. We are all messed up in one form or another, and we all need help. It's those of us who know how to dropkick our ego and get the help we need that often come out ahead in life.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Meeks7

July 18, 2012

The term social skills is incredibly broad.

Can you narrow it into something more tangible?

I have tried many times to make it tangible. The first tangible step is putting yourself in more social situations. Another tangible step is making and keeping friends - for you, probably male friends, because you may fall for your female friends. Through this, you can build your conversation skills, your understanding of other people (I don't think you understand people in general - not just women, and understanding women is really not THAT different from understanding people in general - a little refinement maybe, but not that much). I suggest joining groups too where you can socialize in a co-ed setting, rather than having a single female friend or two (meetup groups etc) and going to singles events. I suggest building hobbies that can be social and done with others. I suggest attempting to really build empathy - understand people and their needs and desires and be okay with them AS THEY ARE. I suggest accepting and understanding people's reactions to you and beginning to understand the way your tone, body language, and intention affect how people take what you say. I suggest developing more positive beliefs about people and socialization. CBT in conjunction with actual action might help - I know you did CBT before, but you didn't get yourself out there and actually try to build a happy life at the same time. A therapist who actually gives you social 'homework' to do would be helpful; many do that.

In order to build social skills, you need much more positive social interaction. Granted, there are still romantic skills you may need to build and beliefs you may need to change. I think there are. But I don't think you have the foundation for that just yet. Learning how to flirt, understanding that it's not disrespectful to be sexual in the proper way, and reading women are all skills that would come after those steps above are started.

You could do those steps above in a few months, really. Join three groups that meet at least a few times a month and attend them regularly. A lot of the same people will come - be open to socializing with those people outside the meets as well. IME, there are people who go to those groups looking for that. Try to really understand those people and how they react to you, learn a little about yourself, and you will be in a better position. I really think you have NO CLUE how people actually see you.

Those are some tangible steps to potentially take.

Edited July 18, 2012 by zengirl

July 18, 2012

Just for the record, IMO those were not very good conversations. I'm sure that all depends on the tone of voice, context of the relationship, etc, but barring very unlikely circumstances, those don't sound like very good things to say, to me. They weren't necessarily horrible, but they were just... I dunno how to put it. I can't imagine anyone I know ever falling for a guy who talks like that. I think she found some of your comments distasteful a long time ago, but being inexperienced herself, didn't know how to respond to them. I mean, we've all done that, especially when we were young - someone says something 'jokingly' and we think it's not very nice, but we don't know how to react so we just try to laugh them off.

Yes, this is something every young woman probably has done - even the very self-assured, which it doesn't sound like she was. It is hard to know what to do when someone says something like that, so it often goes unaddressed but not unnoticed.

July 18, 2012

Following quotes are all from Somedude81.

Yes, I did everything I could! I stopped having a bad self-defeatist attitude towards women. I attempted to get numbers, put alot of work into my appearance, body language, joining a gym to start weightlifitng, seeking out social groups I liked, dove into online dating, started flirting with ladies at grocery stores/laundy/malls/the bank/tech support agents/cashiers/waitresses, everywhere while I was out and about. Alot of things that I never did before that meant I had to break out of my comfort zone. I would seek opportunities to talk to women, whether I thought they were attractive or not, without a care in the world.

This all took place over a period of 9 months and I consider it far from over.

Past 10 is when the fun really starts! You can spare one or two nights a week on this, believe me. The funny thing is how you instantly placed going to bars and clubs as a "type of life" - you are overationalizing everything again.

Yes but did you take lifting weights to improve yourself - all the way - or just took it casually? You need to hire a personal trainer and get into the gym at least twice a week for an hour and do cardio (aka running) on your days off. A personal trainer will help you look the way you want. Did you do squats? Deadlifts? Bench presses? Not just dumbell and bicep curls. Once you feel that testosterone pumping into your male body from real weightlifting you will never want to stop.

It's alot easier than it really is. You are what you think. If you keep thinking you're a loser "not an outgoing guy who can't make friends" you will eventually become one. I realised I had to change because my old ways of thinking about women and dating was simply, obsolete and too old fashioned.

You started this whole topic with the question "how does this dating and sex thing actually work?" When I asked myself the same question I read "Attraction Isn't A Choice" and I got it. His stuff is worlds beyond PUA which is why it "clicked" with me. You probably kept thinking "naw this doesn't apply to me..." while you were reading his original book, the same way you are treating everyone's advice here.
If you really assimilated that knowledge in DYD you would have seen the fact this girl you always talk about brought another guy along on your "date", was an instant fail waiting to happen. If you wanted to hang out with her alone why didn't you just tell her you wanted that, and if the other guy didn't GTFO you'd leave?
Take it from me, being "nice" is overrated. I lost the "hottest" and most compatible woman I ever met in my life, from being "nice." That is what set this all off for me.

Put your ego aside and really pay attention to what guys like DeAngelo and people in this forum are saying. I have a hard time believing you spent money on bootcamps and seminars etc., and still don't understand this stuff!

Do you think women view sex and dating as a big, big deal like some guys do? No because they have options and get dates all the time. You have to take that same attitude and put yourself on a pedestal. The analogy you present is light years away from anything having to do with what women want or need out of a man. A woman can tell how desperate/pathetic vs strong mentally + emotionally confident a guy is just by their body language, how they talk and act in person. They are "socially tuned" in a way guys are not. You just don't understand but worse, you won't accept the differences between men and women. You just expect all women and people to like you and get frustrated when they don't. It's called solipsism and getting rid of that mindset from me led to a big breakthrough in dealing with dating. Seriously, some guys act like the woman of their dreams will just show up and spread their legs for them right away.

You can be whatever you want to be if you just believe in yourself. And it's clear that you don't. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can research "social skills" and then use critical thinking to help improve yourself. Here's one idea I have for you. Why don't you just sign up on meetup.com and join some of the video game social groups they have there? There are alot in SoCal. You have to put in the effort, man.

This was about me suggesting that you simply smile more. I dare you to smile at random women you see throughout the day, and keep eye contact with them - believe me they will smile back. Especially if you have muscle like you claim.

The folly of your logic is that you won't even bring yourself up to talk to "random girls" to get to know them a bit, to see if you'd like to ask them out.
You tie your self-worth to being/not-being rejected by women. The fear of failure clearly has you by the balls.
Keep on believing in this unconfidence about yourself and see where you will be in 10 years. Probably still posting on this thread about "that girl"...

And I'm outta here...

*applause*

Dude, you've said everything I've said more than once in this thread

July 18, 2012

Woke up due to some insomnia and I'm going to head back to bed in a bit so I''m only going to address one topic for now.

Ok, I'll take a stab at this, but keep in mind that I am not her and I cannot truly know what was going on in her mind. This is how I would think if in a similar situation where I exploded like that.

She had decided to end the friendship with you because you both wanted drastically different things. She was tired of feeling pressured by your pursuit. Your comment on her cleavage, that you would then have the pleasure of looking at, was a reminder to her of the entire situation and your attraction to her. As a response to a single incident, yes she was blowing it out of proportion. As a culmination of all things, it was the last straw. It made her feel awkward considering everything else, and the fact that someone was there to witness her awkwardness made it doubly so.

Also, the earlier comments about her breast started where she volunteered information, and the context was decidedly unsexy, cutting off, sag, binding, etc.

That bold part was something that had never crossed my mind. When I made that comment, I was strictly joking and wasn't actually thinking about seeing her in a revealing shirt. But maybe that's what she thought I meant? The thing about her being pressured as well and everything else you said, so there could have been more to it than I thought of.

Yes, the other two conversations about her breasts were brought up by her. Did that mean that only she was allowed to bring them up?

If I had spent some time with a girl and brought up my ass a few times, I wouldn't be offended if one day she started talking about it up in conversation.

As or the unsexy thing, sure talking about old people boobs isn't a very hot topic, but boobs are still boobs, they always will have a certain sexiness to them, especially coming from a young woman with a nice pair. Especially when the topic was goofy and not something serious. The bonding thing was a joke on my part. I didn't really know what else to say after she brought up that her breasts are too big so that she feels she can't wear more girly (tighter) shirts. There were a million other things she could have said, yet she's the one brought attention to her breasts, also don't forget the situation where she's out with a guy who she knows likes her and is attracted to her.

Just for the record, IMO those were not very good conversations. I'm sure that all depends on the tone of voice, context of the relationship, etc, but barring very unlikely circumstances, those don't sound like very good things to say, to me. They weren't necessarily horrible, but they were just... I dunno how to put it. I can't imagine anyone I know ever falling for a guy who talks like that. I think she found some of your comments distasteful a long time ago, but being inexperienced herself, didn't know how to respond to them. I mean, we've all done that, especially when we were young - someone says something 'jokingly' and we think it's not very nice, but we don't know how to react so we just try to laugh them off.

Yes, this is something every young woman probably has done - even the very self-assured, which it doesn't sound like she was. It is hard to know what to do when someone says something like that, so it often goes unaddressed but not unnoticed.

Huh!?

Why are you guys blaming me when she was the one who brought up her breasts?

What did you expect me to say? "I'm sorry Danielle, you're breasts are an inappropriate topic of conversation and I will have no such part in it. Please keep such matters of discourse to yourself. Good day."

How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

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