How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

[runner]

OK, something has been bugging me for a while now and I need to get it out.

 

Last month I was at my grandmothers house at a family gathering.

 

I was outside on the deck in the backyard with my father and an uncle.

 

The deck itself became the topic of conversation and my uncle said that he built it to get in good with Tina (his wife) before they were married. I think they were in their early 20's at the time.

 

I asked him for clarification and he explained that my aunt had no interest in him at all in the start. Which was surprising to me because he's a decent looking guy and about 6'2, she on the other hand is about 5'2.

 

Getting back, she had no interest in him and I was curious how they ended up getting married. He told me that he called Tina's mother, my grandmother, and told her that he liked Tina, but she had no interest in him and what he should do. (His family knew her family for a while, I forgot the actual connection ) He and Tina ended up getting married a year later, and are still married going on 20+ years. And it all happened because he asked her mother for help/advice, which turned around a seemingly hopeless situation.

 

I'll just say that I wish I heard that story a year ago when I could have actually tried something with my target.

 

are they older ? as in, where they courting (ha ! try using that term these days ) prior to the 1960s ? from what i sense, family connections were far more significant in those days than they are now. you're grandmother probably socially bludgeoned your Aunt into giving this 'respectable' bloke a chance. in other words, arranged marriages were fairly common in the west for a long time; that whole thing probably fell apart in the swinging 60s. i'm sure the older LSers on here could say far more on the topic than i am able to.

[somedude81]

are they older ? as in, where they courting (ha ! try using that term these days ) prior to the 1960s ? from what i sense, family connections were far more significant in those days than they are now. you're grandmother probably socially bludgeoned your Aunt into giving this 'respectable' bloke a chance. in other words, arranged marriages were fairly common in the west for a long time; that whole thing probably fell apart in the swinging 60s. i'm sure the older LSers on here could say far more on the topic than i am able to.

I think my aunt is 50. So this must have happend in the early 1960's. It was definitely not an arranged marriage. Though I do wonder how much bludgeoning my grandmother did.

 

What is surprising, is that my grandmother has four kids, three of them have gotten divorced, the only one that hasn't was this aunt.

[runner]

I think my aunt is 50. So this must have happend in the early 1960's. It was definitely not an arranged marriage. Though I do wonder how much bludgeoning my grandmother did.

 

What is surprising, is that my grandmother has four kids, three of them have gotten divorced, the only one that hasn't was this aunt.

 

oh no that's not what i meant. not 'arranged' per se, as in an actual social institution like what you would find in India or european aristrocracies; it's something more of a 'light' version of that. sort of a handshake between families so that their kids can procreate and so that both families can preserve name respectability in their communities (also why inter-racial marriages were completely unheard of for a long time).

 

in that world that i'm trying to articulate, sometimes relationships actually fall apart if that 'handshake' doesn't happen first.

 

and yes, i beleive this still would have been fairly common even in the early 1960s

[Lonely Ronin]

My problem is bigger than that. But it is still a part of it. I was having issues with women long before I met that girl.

 

I wasn't referring to that girl as your problem, I was referring to how you saw her as a target. In a lot of your posts you refer to women as if they are not human, and that's a problem.

[zengirl]

Which was surprising to me because he's a decent looking guy and about 6'2, she on the other hand is about 5'2.

 

I'm not sure why you're so height-obsessed you make even THIS about heights. Seriously, there are many reasons a woman doesn't like or notice a guy. Height doesn't seem to factor into this story AT ALL - why does your mind go there. Unhealthy fixation.

 

Getting back, she had no interest in him and I was curious how they ended up getting married. He told me that he called Tina's mother, my grandmother, and told her that he liked Tina, but she had no interest in him and what he should do. (His family knew her family for a while, I forgot the actual connection ) He and Tina ended up getting married a year later, and are still married going on 20+ years. And it all happened because he asked her mother for help/advice, which turned around a seemingly hopeless situation.

 

I'll just say that I wish I heard that story a year ago when I could have actually tried something with my target.

 

TBH, I don't think that would normally work today. Different times and all. I'm not even sure it worked much back then. Perhaps if you REALLY knew the family (if families are tight-knit, that's one thing, meaning you actually grew up together and your family knows her family etc), as it sounds like he did, and it depends on the person, of course, but generally not the best way to go about it.

 

Also calling someone "your target" is the whole problem.

[somedude81]

oh no that's not what i meant. not 'arranged' per se, as in an actual social institution like what you would find in India or european aristrocracies; it's something more of a 'light' version of that. sort of a handshake between families so that their kids can procreate and so that both families can preserve name respectability in their communities (also why inter-racial marriages were completely unheard of for a long time).

 

in that world that i'm trying to articulate, sometimes relationships actually fall apart if that 'handshake' doesn't happen first.

 

and yes, i beleive this still would have been fairly common even in the early 1960s

Oh, there was no sort of agreement at all. There is no status in the community, none of that. I also just remembered, that my uncle had some connection to the family of my grandmothers best friend. He said that he married Tina a year after he met her.

I'm not sure why you're so height-obsessed you make even THIS about heights. Seriously, there are many reasons a woman doesn't like or notice a guy. Height doesn't seem to factor into this story AT ALL - why does your mind go there. Unhealthy fixation.

It should be obvious now that I believe that height is a major part of a mans attractiveness. I believe that if a man is tall, women are almost already attracted to him.

 

Eh, that was a good opportunity for a person to say, "See SD not all women care about height." The way you said it was a bit, different.

 

TBH, I don't think that would normally work today. Different times and all. I'm not even sure it worked much back then. Perhaps if you REALLY knew the family (if families are tight-knit, that's one thing, meaning you actually grew up together and your family knows her family etc), as it sounds like he did, and it depends on the person, of course, but generally not the best way to go about it.

I think it more depends on the girl, how close she is with her mother/family, her personality, how sheltered she is, if she lives with her parents, and what her dating history has been. And of course it's important what the parents actually think of the guy.

 

If a girl lives away from her parents and has had a few boyfriends, appealing to her mother, has about a zero percent chance. But if the girl lives with her parents, has hardly ever dated and isn't that sociable, things might be different.

 

Also calling someone "your target" is the whole problem.

 

I wasn't referring to that girl as your problem, I was referring to how you saw her as a target. In a lot of your posts you refer to women as if they are not human, and that's a problem.

I haven't talked to her in about six months, and she's no longer in my life. Referring to her in the past, as "my target" is the nicest thing I'm going to say about her now.

 

Right now, she is less than human to me, it does not apply to all women.

 

BTW, from what I'm learning more about dating and how men have to keep playing the numbers game, thinking of women as humans seems to be the problem.

 

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

[Els]

It should be obvious now that I believe that height is a major part of a mans attractiveness. I believe that if a man is tall, women are almost already attracted to him.

 

Nah. An ex of mine was about 5'11" - that may not sound very tall to you, but it was really, really tall in an Asian community, he was about a head taller than the average man. He had never had a sexual relationship before me, and, from what I heard, didn't have any after, either. Height really isn't what matters.

 

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

 

Well, you could apply this to everything - what's the point of putting in all that time and effort prepping for that job interview if they reject you, forcing you to move on to the next job? Why ever try at all, for anything in life, when you can fail?

 

The answer is: Because that time and effort isn't actually wasted - it's about the journey, not the end results, because the journey is what makes you a better person and increases your odds of success in the future.

[iris219]

 

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

 

How is it a waste of time for you to spend time with someone so that YOU can get to know them, figure out who they are, and decide if YOU feel a connection?

 

If you don't need to do any of that to know you like someone, you are not dating women for the right reasons (i.e. to genuinely find a suitable match for you). It's not possible that you will like and feel compatible with any decent looking girl, and if you do, that means it's not about her at all; it's solely about what you think you can gain from the situation.

[Lonely Ronin]

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

 

You know this pretty much the definition of dating.... Two people meet, they learn about each other, and more often than not someone gets rejected.

[jobaba]

How is it a waste of time for you to spend time with someone so that YOU can get to know them, figure out who they are, and decide if YOU feel a connection?

 

If you don't need to do any of that to know you like someone, you are not dating women for the right reasons (i.e. to genuinely find a suitable match for you). It's not possible that you will like and feel compatible with any decent looking girl, and if you do, that means it's not about her at all; it's solely about what you think you can gain from the situation.

 

That's not what he's saying. He's saying it's a waste of time to get to know a woman over time in a platonic, relaxed environment with no strong initial inclination towards romance.

 

Because what will happen is you will fall for her and she will reject you because she has no physical attraction.

 

And I tend to agree with him.

 

In the shotgun traditional dating sense, it's different, because the notion of romantic interest has already been introduced into the fray at the onset, and if she has no physical attraction, she will reject you well before anything can develop or even refuse to go on a date with you in the first place.

[zengirl]

It should be obvious now that I believe that height is a major part of a mans attractiveness. I believe that if a man is tall, women are almost already attracted to him.

 

And it should be obvious I was pointing out how harmful that is to you, as a shorter man, to cling to that belief. I also believe it happens to be false, from my experience.

 

I think it more depends on the girl, how close she is with her mother/family, her personality, how sheltered she is, if she lives with her parents, and what her dating history has been. And of course it's important what the parents actually think of the guy.

 

Yes, it would depend on the person. I wouldn't always equate living with home as 'sheltered' in your desired age bracket. A lot of that is financial these days. I would also think that someone who has dated more but is close to her family and sheltered is maybe more likely to be swayed by that than someone who has little interest in dating yet on her own or is choosing not to date the men she sees available to her. Outside pressure would rarely help those cases, I'd imagine, as a person is usually making that choice as a means of either control or because they just already are sure they don't like the selection. Someone who has never dated is probably less willing to give a guy a chance in general unless she feels compelled to.

 

At any rate, the modern version of this is 'meeting through friends,' which is far more common. Of course family members can also be friends, even if not peers.

 

I haven't talked to her in about six months, and she's no longer in my life. Referring to her in the past, as "my target" is the nicest thing I'm going to say about her now.

 

While this is all gross (saying someone is 'less than human' to you is just always gross), it wasn't my point in saying 'target' was the problem per se. I was more pointing out the extreme fixation on a single person and investment in an outcome that you had no reason to believe would be successful. It's irrational and a bad way to think, even now, and will hinder you in any attempts to move forward.

 

BTW, from what I'm learning more about dating and how men have to keep playing the numbers game, thinking of women as humans seems to be the problem.

 

I don't think you ever saw D as human. You saw her as something to acquire. That is how all your posts have gone really. Putting a girl on a pedestal and trying to 'win' her is the OPPOSITE of seeing her as a human being.

 

Dating is, to a degree, a numbers game for everyone. But the numbers still have to be people - and you have to let them be people, not things to win over, or you'll never be happy. Yes, you need to get out there. No, you shouldn't invest upfront. Seeing a person as a human being has NOTHING to do with investing in them as a potential R partner.

 

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

 

As Elswyth said, it's the journey. But you're not seeing anyone as a human being already with your attitude, and I rarely see evidence that you even can or want to try. That is why your social skills are subpar and why we discussed empathy ad nauseum etc. The whole point of socializing or dating (which includes all the things you outlined) is to find people who click with you, on one level or another. In dating, you have to click on multiple levels, so it's a bit harder than finding friends or whatnot. What's the point? Well, it's many-folded: 1.) To actually find the rare people you click with and feel the satisfaction of that, 2.) To build your skills and develop as a person so you can do #1 but also just for the sake of self-growth, 3.) To exercise your social nature, as a human being, and 4.) To experience society. Probably more things, too.

 

Most interactions do not lead to more interactions, let alone relationships of any kind (dating/romantic or not). That is because there are a multitude of people out there, and we cannot incorporate nearly all of them into our lives, so we pick the ones who suit us best. But when you see people as human beings, the 'point' of interactions is clear - to associate with other human beings.

[somedude81]

And all this talk because I refereed to a girl that I'm still bitter at, as my target.

 

I could have said,

 

"I'll just say that I wish I heard that story a year ago when I could have actually tried something with that girl" and it would have meant the exact same thing.

 

Hell, I also could have said, "I'll just say that I wish I heard that story a year ago when I could have actually tried something with that bitch." If I wanted to show more anger.

 

As for getting to know somebody, jobaba is right. I'm not talking about getting to know somebody while dating. Just in case nobody knows, I haven't actually dated anybody.

[zengirl]

That's not what he's saying. He's saying it's a waste of time to get to know a woman over time in a platonic, relaxed environment with no strong initial inclination towards romance.

 

Because what will happen is you will fall for her and she will reject you because she has no physical attraction.

 

I think he's saying more than that with the words he chooses and the beliefs underneath, though he may not realize it.

 

I do agree that it's a bit of a waste of time to be 'friends first' if your intention is really to date the person. I'd say it's definitely a bad strategy and ill-advised. I'd also say it's a bit of a deception, and you deserve what you get. If romance is what you're after, make that clear. Better for everyone.

[jobaba]

I think he's saying more than that with the words he chooses and the beliefs underneath, though he may not realize it.

 

I do agree that it's a bit of a waste of time to be 'friends first' if your intention is really to date the person. I'd say it's definitely a bad strategy and ill-advised. I'd also say it's a bit of a deception, and you deserve what you get. If romance is what you're after, make that clear. Better for everyone.

 

I don't know why women believe men do this.

 

What guy would ever lust after a woman intently and then say to himself, "Well. I'll be her friend first. That will be the best route."

 

The last woman I fell for ... she used to tell me stories about her boyfriend and the men she used to chase after and I used to LAUGH. Because I felt nothing for her. Then, suddenly, something snapped, and I was infatuated with her.

 

That's USUALLY how it happens when guys fall for their friends. Believe me...

[fortyninethousand322]

I don't know why women believe men do this.

 

What guy would ever lust after a woman intently and then say to himself, "Well. I'll be her friend first. That will be the best route."

 

The last woman I fell for ... she used to tell me stories about her boyfriend and the men she used to chase after and I used to LAUGH. Because I felt nothing for her. Then, suddenly, something snapped, and I was infatuated with her.

 

That's USUALLY how it happens when guys fall for their friends. Believe me...

 

That's probably the most predominate way of it happening. I remember one girl (that I'm still kind of hung up on) from a few years ago which happened almost the same way. Not into her and bam, into her.

 

Also, the other thing that happens is you're friends and then you develop feelings but before you can do anything she says something about some guy friend who hit on her and then you kind of feel like a creep trying to do anything. So you kind of sit idle hoping that she'll either make a move on you, or make it obvious she wants you to make a move.

[Cracker Jack]

You really need to get over the fact that D didn't want you. I understand being bitter, but the writing was on the wall from the jump in that situation. Go out and meet other women. Right now, all you're doing is wasting your time.

[Lonely Ronin]

I think he's saying more than that with the words he chooses and the beliefs underneath, though he may not realize it.

 

Sadly he doesn't get it.

[fortyninethousand322]

You really need to get over the fact that D didn't want you. I understand being bitter, but the writing was on the wall from the jump in that situation. Go out and meet other women. Right now, all you're doing is wasting your time.

 

Sometimes that's easier said than done. I'm still hung up on someone from years ago which sometimes significantly impacts my desire and ability to interact with other women. It's just the way it is sometimes.

[zengirl]

I don't know why women believe men do this.

 

What guy would ever lust after a woman intently and then say to himself, "Well. I'll be her friend first. That will be the best route."

 

The last woman I fell for ... she used to tell me stories about her boyfriend and the men she used to chase after and I used to LAUGH. Because I felt nothing for her. Then, suddenly, something snapped, and I was infatuated with her.

 

That's USUALLY how it happens when guys fall for their friends. Believe me...

 

I do agree that's how it often happens. (That happens to women with male friends too sometimes btw.) And when that happens, you have a choice to make: 1. Express that feeling, 2. Get over that feeling, 3. End the friendship. It's the poor choices made in lieu of doing one of those 3 mature things and the dragging of feet in making the choice that is the problem.

 

However, SD has expressed before that he honestly thinks his best chance with women is if they get to know him first, in a 'non-threatening' (which I think he views as a rather asexual) way. I don't know why men think dates are 'threatening' to women. They aren't - perhaps they're unwanted, and she struggles with rejecting men, and even then, it's not really that dates are 'threatening.' There are guys who try to play a slow game, and they almost always fail.

 

And someone who typically falls for their opposite-gender friends may want to think better of cultivating such friendships until they are emotionally capable of handling them. Truly. I have no problem with the idea that everyone is not up for opposite gender friends.

[Pirouette]

I haven't talked to her in about six months, and she's no longer in my life. Referring to her in the past, as "my target" is the nicest thing I'm going to say about her now.

 

Right now, she is less than human to me, it does not apply to all women.

 

BTW, from what I'm learning more about dating and how men have to keep playing the numbers game, thinking of women as humans seems to be the problem.

 

What's the point of spending time with somebody, getting to know them, figuring out who they are, essentially acknowledging them as human, if they reject you, forcing me to move on to the next girl? Seems like I just wasted a bunch of time and energy.

 

The point is because they are human. Just. Like. You. You want someone to get to know you and like you and love you for who you are, past the superficial inadequacies you think you have? You need to be able to return that in full. That means approaching everyone as a unique individual and accepting their actions and decisions as their own, made for their own reasons, and not just as further roadbacks set in your path on your journey towards fulfullment. It means thinking of people as more than what they can or cannot do for you.

 

You don't need to answer this, but have you ever loved someone, man or woman, and accepted all the aspects of them, good and bad, and continued to love them? Have you cared deeply about someone with no thought of what you get out of them in return, treasuring only your time spent with them? Do you love them still? When was the last time you did something selfless, without even expecting acknowledgment?

 

If you truly do not get what I am saying, if you truly do not get why you should treat women, and everyone as humans (otherwise, what do you treat them as? Garbage, filth, living dolls to reflect your own desires and effort, a prized possession that you hang on your arm like a symbol of achievment?) then there is truly nothing more I can say to you and I will bow out of this conversation.

 

These are basic tenets of most healthy, human relationships. This is not new age or radical thinking.

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You want a woman who will disregard your physical imperfections, and care nothing about lack of character, then you better be able to provide the few outlier criteria that women like that are looking for. Make tons of money, work a glamourous job, or pray to win the lottery.

[fortyninethousand322]

I do agree that's how it often happens. (That happens to women with male friends too sometimes btw.) And when that happens, you have a choice to make: 1. Express that feeling, 2. Get over that feeling, 3. End the friendship. It's the poor choices made in lieu of doing one of those 3 mature things and the dragging of feet in making the choice that is the problem.

 

However, SD has expressed before that he honestly thinks his best chance with women is if they get to know him first, in a 'non-threatening' (which I think he views as a rather asexual) way. I don't know why men think dates are 'threatening' to women. They aren't - perhaps they're unwanted, and she struggles with rejecting men, and even then, it's not really that dates are 'threatening.' There are guys who try to play a slow game, and they almost always fail.

 

And someone who typically falls for their opposite-gender friends may want to think better of cultivating such friendships until they are emotionally capable of handling them. Truly. I have no problem with the idea that everyone is not up for opposite gender friends.

 

I don't think it's the dates in and of themselves. Going to a movie or on a picnic with someone isn't "threatening". But, unless you've ever tried to make physical contact with someone (of the sex you're attracted to) like a hug or put your arm around them (not even kissing necessarily) just to have them recoil, I don't think you quite understand what SD is talking about.

 

There's a certain feeling (of hopelessness, shame, and guilt) when that happens. Unless you've experienced it, you can't understand.

[Cracker Jack]

Sometimes that's easier said than done. I'm still hung up on someone from years ago which sometimes significantly impacts my desire and ability to interact with other women. It's just the way it is sometimes.

 

Considering I've been in a situation where I was supposedly in a "loving relationship" with a girl for more than a yr, I already know it's way easier said than done. Regardless, as hard as it was, I had to get over it, or continue complaining about my situation. The latter isn't productive and does nothing for his situation.

[ThaWholigan]

I don't think it's the dates in and of themselves. Going to a movie or on a picnic with someone isn't "threatening". But, unless you've ever tried to make physical contact with someone (of the sex you're attracted to) like a hug or put your arm around them (not even kissing necessarily) just to have them recoil, I don't think you quite understand what SD is talking about.

 

There's a certain feeling (of hopelessness, shame, and guilt) when that happens. Unless you've experienced it, you can't understand.

I have.

 

It has not deterred me thus far.

[jobaba]

The point is because they are human. Just. Like. You. You want someone to get to know you and like you and love you for who you are, past the superficial inadequacies you think you have? You need to be able to return that in full. That means approaching everyone as a unique individual and accepting their actions and decisions as their own, made for their own reasons, and not just as further roadbacks set in your path on your journey towards fulfullment. It means thinking of people as more than what they can or cannot do for you.

 

That's exactly what he did.

 

He got to know a woman over time and fell for her based on the connection they had, with her as a human being.

 

Most men over the age of 21 are not going to fall into a two year depressive spiral over a woman because she is HOT or because she simply has a vagina. And I've seen pictures of D. She ain't HOT.

 

So ... he gets to know a woman over time, connects, falls for her, and she rejects him (probably because of no physical attraction) and he's the one who gets crucified?

 

You can tell him to get over it and act early next time to establish if she is attracted to you, fine.

 

But all the mumbo jumbo about respecting women as people ... puuhhleeeze.

 

That is exactly what he did. And he's bitter because of what happened and understandably so. But it will pass in time.

[Cracker Jack]

Him falling for her is perfectly normal. I'm sure every single guy has been in that position before. However, the bitterness isn't even really justified to begin with. It's normal, but the girl let him know from the jump she wasn't into him like that.

 

That should've been all he needed, but what did he do instead? Continue to hang with her, hoping she would change her mind. He knew it wasn't going to go anywhere, but he wanted her to make that clear. Totally unnecessary. This is the same girl that had an issue with hugging. Kappa.