What makes a man propose/Is it ok for women to propose?

[RiverRunning]

Not in a relationship at the moment, but just reflecting on my last relationship: we were together for years, in our mid to late 20s, financially stable, education completed, etc. He never did propose. I bought a simple band and had it engraved. I grew so tired of waiting around for him and talking about it, but things never going anywhere that I thought that I might propose.

 

Then it dawned on me that doing so would basically be like issuing an ultimatum. My deadline came around and I left. Only -then- did word start getting around that he had purchased an engagement ring for me.

 

It makes me wonder: we had all the hallmarks in place for things that get a guy to propose. But we DID live together. Or then again, *I* thought that we had everything in place for a good relationship. Maybe he was just the type to tell me to my face that everything was great, I was so perfect, he couldn't imagine life without me, etc., simply because it was easier than telling the truth and going off to meet somebody else.

 

Admittedly as I get older I'm a little worried that I'll continue meeting guys, we'll go out, we'll date for a few years (or many years), and then nothing will happen. Life will just go on in dating style for all eternity.

 

Do most men even want to get married anymore? Most guys around here seem to have a very poor view of marriage (I know, the sample around here is rather biased), but I have to admit even from my stance I really don't see how the benefit of a marriage outweighs the risk of divorce for men. And since so many of us (myself included) will move in with them, cook for them, clean for them and sleep with them - it does seem silly to think most would be willing to commit to marriage.

 

I realize plenty of guys marry for love and love alone... it just doesn't seem like it. I remember posing this very issue to my ex, stating that I had made it too easy for him. He had no incentive to propose. And I remember how he told me he would propose because he loved me. And then months and then years trickled by and nothing ever came of it.

 

So what is it? I hear the rumor is most women DO issue some sort of ultimatum (it may not be as direct as "Marry me or I'll dump you," but sometimes even just, "By December, I'm going to start dating other people.") and that's what gets the ball rolling.

 

Maybe I was just too passive. I never would have issued an ultimatum. I stated what I would have liked for him to do but beyond that mostly kept my mouth shut. It seems like a woman's hands are tied with all of this stuff: "Don't issue ultimatums." "You can only say, "I'd like to get married in December/June/whatever" and beyond that sit pretty and pretend nothing's wrong even while your life is ripping past you."

 

Then even the proposal issue. I didn't do it because it felt too much like an ultimatum: I'd propose and if he DID accept, we would never hear the end of it from our respective family members and friends. If he didn't accept, he'd be furious with me for 'taking away' the proposal and maybe even for 'emasculating' him. And if he did accept, I'd always wonder if he just felt pressured into it.

 

It honestly feels like there's no way to win if you're in a LTR, you're happy, and you're female, when it comes to getting married. You're pressured into taking the passive route. And then if you do that, you may, like me and many others here it seems, wind up with a guy who also decides to just do nothing for months or years.

 

Is there ever a time when it's OK for a woman to propose?

[pink_sugar]

Of course it's ok. We're not in such as chauvanistic society anymore. Sometimes people even skip the proposal process and just agree that it's a good time to get married and then hit the jewelry store for rings. Nothing wrong with that either. Every couple is different.

[samsungxoxo]

Yeah I hear you and that's the reason I would never live with a man unless he was my fiance and with a date for the wedding.

 

Advice: Don't ever do cohabition again... that's not a step from marriage but rather playing house and giving the man everything he wants.

[Kamila]

Good advice from samsung. Why would a guy marry you if you're already living together ?

He's having all the benefits without really committing. Okay you share expenses and stuff. But where is that wedding ring ?

 

That's one of the reasons my ex and I split. I wanted the commitment before we moved in together, but he couldn't give it to me.

[d'Arthez]

As if a man proposing is not issuing an ultimatum of sorts? That you don't won't see it as an ultimatum does not make it any less of an ultimatum.

 

You can debate the merits and demerits of marriage forever. Why is it so important to you? And if you have certain reasons / beliefs why you find marriage so important make certain you get involved with men who share the same view.

 

Quit sticking to outdated gender roles and conceptions, unless you want to play house in your marriage. In which case you should find yourself a conservative man who is on the same page with regards gender roles.

 

There is nothing wrong with women proposing. There is nothing wrong with men proposing. But there is something seriously wrong, if a relationship is reduced to the question: will (s)he propose?

[Kamila]

After 2 y, it's only fair to know where you stand with your relationship.

 

When a man/woman is proposing, it is indeed an ultimatum and then the man/woman has to decide whether he/she wants to marry the woman/man.

 

Instead of just being gf/bf, someone really takes action and proposes to the other partner in order to take the relationship to the next level.

 

It's only fair.

[MuscleCarFan]

It's 2012, it's perfectly okay for women to propose!

 

In any case, pink_sugar and I lived together for a year before getting engaged and then getting married 11 months later.

 

Frankly, I would not move in together with someone that did not feel like they would want to marry me. I would feel like I was wasting my time.

[Woggle]

Men will propose when they truly feel that a woman is wife material. I hate to say this but so few women are these days. Sure they might want a wedding but when it comes time to really take commitment seriously and do what it takes to make a marriage work many just fall short.

 

We have a 50% divorce with 75% of those divorces being initiated by women. Just look at the divorce and seperation forum on these boards. Look at how many women fall out of love after she meets her ex on facebook or the new guy at work gives her butterflies or because she feels she never lived life and the only way to do it is to get rid of him. Also look at how many married women feel that they settled and treat their husbands like crap because of it.

 

I am not trying to bash women and I know that there are many women who are not like this but if you want to know why many men have such a poor view of marriage this is it. They don't want to become another one of these statistics.

 

Of course it is okay to propose but if you want a man to propose make him feel safe that he won't become another one of these statistics.

[RiverRunning]

Alas, he was the one who had the ex issue initially (a source of many fights for us...but thankfully that had been solved for years by the time I left).

 

It's not that i think that a woman proposing is wrong ALL of the time - and proposing is an ultimatum either way. The thing is, it's not viewed that way in most of society and it's not viewed that way by most women, but the alternative is. More men now than in the past probably would accept being proposed to - but I would imagine a majority would still not like it.

 

My ex and I had so many conversations that went like this: "Boyfriend, I would really love to marry you. You're great, you're kind (add more compliments here...whew...long list), and you are the person I would like to be with for the rest of my life."

 

"I feel the same way about you."

 

"Then...aren't we more or less engaged?"

 

"WELL..."

 

It always came down to: we have to get a ring first. In my case, my boyfriend was a lot less progressive when it came to engagements and the like.

 

But even for women who DO have very progressive, non-traditional boyfriends, there's still a lot of pressure in Western society about the do's and don'ts of proposing. I agree that women have the right to propose. Is it necessarily the wisest decision for them, though? That's the issue that I wrestle with.

 

Ultimately, in my case, I do feel I made the best decision by not proposing. The fact is, since so many men DO take on the proposing role, if he had wanted to marry me, he would have proposed sooner than he did.

 

Rest assured, I'll never live with someone before we have a wedding date officially set again. I learned my lesson, even with all the discussions of, "Oh yeah, we'll live together for this length of time...and then within that time we'll get engaged, and...."

 

Pfft, yeah right.

 

I should add on Woggle's front: I never had issues with my exes (I go no contact), but unfortunately he had exactly that for far too long. I was devoted and faithful to him throughout the relationship. Did everything for him. It makes me wonder if getting married only happens if you're a complete bitch? There WAS that book about it a few years back...hahaha

[zengirl]

ETA: As to what makes a man propose, I think it depends. Love, yes, but also a vision of a future with that woman and a sense of partnerhood. And, perhaps this is the thing you just have to look for and can't cultivate or pick: A man who wants to share his life with someone in general. Some men do and some men don't -- a man who JUST wants to get married is bad, of course, but there are marriage-minded men and not marriage-minded men. If you want marriage, don't try to convert one of the nots. Sometimes it happens, but sometimes it does not. And yes, many men who want Rs don't want marriages per se. However, many men who want marriage won't necessarily marry the first girl who wants the same, even if they date her for years. Men don't have a sense of urgency with marriage, generally.*

 

*Perhaps this is where the 'milk for free' comes in. I don't think it has anything to do with living with each other, but I do think if a man feels he has 100% of a woman and unlimited time, he'll never move to propose and act out of urgency. It will take longer, if ever. But living with someone has nothing to do with giving that 100% commitment.

 

Good advice from samsung. Why would a guy marry you if you're already living together ?

He's having all the benefits without really committing. Okay you share expenses and stuff. But where is that wedding ring ?

 

That's one of the reasons my ex and I split. I wanted the commitment before we moved in together, but he couldn't give it to me.

 

I agreed to live with Hubby (the date to move in was actually still a bit off) before he proposed, despite really thinking I'd never live with a man before marriage again. The only other man I ever lived with also proposed -- in that case, it was an ultimatum that ended the R, but it was already dying off.

 

I have many friends who lived with their husbands prior to engagement or marriage --- almost everyone in my age group (20s, early 30s) who I know that is married did so. I think perhaps it's different when you get older, but even my parents, who married in their late 30s (stepdad and mom), after failed marriages each, lived together first.

 

Generally speaking, stats bear out that it's a myth that people who live together are less likely to get married. That was true ages ago, of course, because the people who lived together were a bit fringe, as it was taboo. Now it seems the natural progression of a R -- for my generation at least.

 

I think if you sense a lack of commitment, it can eat away at you, regardless of living together or not, and that's generally when this idea comes up --- giving more and more, without feeling that firm forever commitment. I think you can often feel that commitment or lack thereof LONG before someone whips a ring out. The truth is, in situations like you say, the commitment would probably never come, and you sensed that. But I don't really buy into the "milk for free" stuff.

 

As if a man proposing is not issuing an ultimatum of sorts?

 

Absolutely it is. And when a man you don't want to propose does the proposing, I can tell you from experience, it's hardly magical, and it feels like being suffocated a bit. Absolutely an ultimatum. But if it's what you really want and need, good to get it out there.

 

Honestly, I don't get the surprise element of a 'proposal.' Hubby surprised me a bit with the speed of asking, but we'd talked about marriage prior and I knew I wanted to marry him and that he wanted to marry me before he proposed. Most of my friends have the same experiences. There wasn't this great uncertainty and this great surprising moment --- how awful that sounds!

 

There is nothing wrong with women proposing. There is nothing wrong with men proposing. But there is something seriously wrong, if a relationship is reduced to the question: will (s)he propose?

 

Absolutely. Why are proposals so secretive? I really don't understand. It seems to me that the couple should build towards marriage together by several smaller conversations, over time.

Edited June 3, 2012 by zengirl

[shorty7]

My former roommate did exactly what people advise NOT to, which was on the third date, plopped down to dinner and said the following:

"I'm not interested in dating someone who's not in the least bit interested in dating me to find out if I'm 'the one.'" She got 'unofficially engaged' within 2 years, 'unofficially officially engaged' (they didn't have a ring but were planning for a wedding to happen) within 3, and finally married in 5 years.

 

There's nothing wrong with the female proposing, but I don't see anything wrong with being in the "dating scene" and making it clear that you're looking to date to see if the courtship will be a compatible partnership someday.

 

In other cultures men/women ask the other : "would you be interested in dating me with the pretense of marriage?" This tends to happen more often with men asking the women looking for a wife (particularly in Asian cultures), but it's still more accepted that the role of the females is with child-rearing and raising a family, so it's just more customary for the men to initiate in that culture. It is becoming more and more common for women to ask as well, but it really depends on how open/modern the people think.

 

It's a little old fashioned, but it kind of takes care of the "waiting time" for people... like someone said, what's the point of going through most of the partnership/couple-hood stuff if marriage wasn't a pre-determined checkpoint.

 

Trick is to do this "early" in the relationship. If you want to eventually get married, there's not really a point in pursuing a fling, right? So if you want the guy to propose, make it clear in the beginning that's what you're looking for in the future, and then if it doesn't work out, there shouldn't be any hard feelings. You'd both know from the beginning it's because you or he saw something that would make the relationship not work out in the long run.

 

At least, this is what I see what would be ideal dating in mid-to-late 20's onward. Especially for a female who's looking to getting married.

 

Will it scare off some hot guys that aren't looking to settle down? Sure it would. Would it possibly deter even the marriage material guys that will eventually mature into the engagement idea after 6~8 years of "dating"? Maybe. But at least, you're going into it in agreement that the relationship is built on the goal of you being engaged to the idea of an engagement/marriage some day.

 

Or, you know, just go the simple way and just ask on the first date if he'd want to get married someday. If there's any hesitation, or a flat no, you know you'll be wasting your time with him again.

[oldshirt]

No women should NOT propose. There is a very important reason that men should be the ones proposing marriage since the beginning of time and our acestors understand that well, it's something that people have lost sight of in recent years with the changing and blurring of gender roles.

 

The reason that men have been the ones required to propose for thousands of generations is because women can manipulate men into just about anything. With a steady supply of sex and promises a woman can easily manipulate a guy into purchasing a ring and showing up at a church and saying 'I do."

 

The problem is if his heart isn't really into it he will drop the ball pretty darn quickly once the sex tapers off and none of the promises come to fruition.

 

Women value companionship, validation, acceptance, security, status, monetary and material resources etc etc. Men value sexuality, respect and admiration.

 

A woman can easily manipulate a man into giving companionship, security etc with sexuality for a very short period of time. BUT if he doesn't love her and value her deep in his heart and innately WANT to give her those things, he will quickly lose interest and move on, and the point he will move on is once she is pregnant and bloating and moody and life isn't fun any more. For a man to stay involved and committed to a woman and her offspring, he has to WANT to be there and sincerely want to have a home and family with her. If he just wanted some poontang he would be out the door once the kid starts screaming and the diapers need changing and the poontang goes out the door.

 

The reason that countless generations have required the man to seek permission from her father, purchase a material symbol of committment (ie diamond and gold ring) of significant monetary value and get down on one knee to propose is because if a guy is willing to do that it shows that he is serious about it and that he truly loves her and is willing to devote himself to provide the things she values and the things that make a maritial union a healthy, stable and safe place to raise offspring.

 

Sometimes traditions are traditions because that is what actually worked and since thousands of generations of our ancestors knew this, we should probably pay a little attention to it.

[oldshirt]

My former roommate did exactly what people advise NOT to, which was on the third date, plopped down to dinner and said the following:

"I'm not interested in dating someone who's not in the least bit interested in dating me to find out if I'm 'the one.'"

 

 

 

 

but I don't see anything wrong with being in the "dating scene" and making it clear that you're looking to date to see if the courtship will be a compatible partnership someday.

 

,

 

I think that is pretty fair and even prudent. There are a few people out there that truly have no interest in having a home and family and children etc but the majority of most men and women do. I think it is fair that if someone has an end-goal of being married and having a functional home and family life that they should see dating as an interview and try-out process and there is nothing wrong with being upfront about that.

 

A person that also interested in eventual marriage will not be intimidated or put off by that. A player will walk away.

 

if someone is seeing you as having potential they will also not be scared off by that. If someone just sees you as a piece of poontang or as a meal-ticket to some free drinks and entertainment they will be.

[oldshirt]

now to address the other question as to when a man will propose, that answer is pretty simple but it packs a big sting - a man will propose when he knows deep in his heart that won't be able to get any better. OUCH!

 

That goes both ways though. We have this perception that women are sitting around waiting for committment to come to them but they are actually even more ruthless and demanding than men and women will also not commit or become involved if they know they can do better.

 

Often times if a man likes a gal and they are having fun but he feels deep down he can do better he will keep seeing the gal and enjoy the sexuality and the entertainment and the companionship while he is marking his time untill the BBD comes along.

 

If a woman allows this it can go on indefinately. Our grandmothers called this not buying the cow because he's getting the milk for free.

 

If a woman is with a man that loves her but she knows she can do better but she still likes his company and companionship and wants him to do things for her she will "friendzone" him and say that she's either "not ready" or that she doesn't love him "that way" or says that she doesn't want a relationship to ruin their friendship.

 

What it all comes down to is each person's self-percieved "MARKET VALUE." If their self-percieved market value of themselves is higher than what they percieve your market value is, they won't marry you. That goes for both men and women.

 

If they percieve both of your market values as equal or other person's value as slightly higher, then they may consider marriage.

 

The wild card is everyone has a slightly different value system on how they determine their market value and how they determine your's.

[samsungxoxo]

now to address the other question as to when a man will propose, that answer is pretty simple but it packs a big sting - a man will propose when he knows deep in his heart that won't be able to get any better. OUCH!

 

That goes both ways though. We have this perception that women are sitting around waiting for committment to come to them but they are actually even more ruthless and demanding than men and women will also not commit or become involved if they know they can do better.

 

Often times if a man likes a gal and they are having fun but he feels deep down he can do better he will keep seeing the gal and enjoy the sexuality and the entertainment and the companionship while he is marking his time untill the BBD comes along.

 

If a woman allows this it can go on indefinately. Our grandmothers called this not buying the cow because he's getting the milk for free.

 

If a woman is with a man that loves her but she knows she can do better but she still likes his company and companionship and wants him to do things for her she will "friendzone" him and say that she's either "not ready" or that she doesn't love him "that way" or says that she doesn't want a relationship to ruin their friendship.

 

What it all comes down to is each person's self-percieved "MARKET VALUE." If their self-percieved market value of themselves is higher than what they percieve your market value is, they won't marry you. That goes for both men and women.

 

If they percieve both of your market values as equal or other person's value as slightly higher, then they may consider marriage.

 

The wild card is everyone has a slightly different value system on how they determine their market value and how they determine your's.

Great explanation and in a way it remains me of when someone is on a job interview. It's like you have to practically sell yourself and be convincing, which is hard sometimes. You can be trying your best and giving it your all but the SO may not see it that way.... that's when worthless time gets wasted for nothing.

[samsungxoxo]

I agree some traditions should still continue and for a good reason. Why change the order of things that were long established? Yes, we now have jobs and can go to college, which is good but when it comes to certain things such as proposal, who asks out and pays on the first few dates, etc. it's better to keep it the way it has always been but some are taking it too far with the changes. Not everything should be changed. Reason: Because that would be out of order. Imagine a cat barking instead of meowing.

The reason that men have been the ones required to propose for thousands of generations is because women can manipulate men into just about anything. With a steady supply of sex and promises a woman can easily manipulate a guy into purchasing a ring and showing up at a church and saying 'I do."

Yes, I'm willing to bet even a shy or introverted woman can get proposed too but he has to practically be blind and crazy about her.

As for church, I'm really an atheist. If I get married, I would want it at a local council. Can a man be manipulated to show up there too???

[d'Arthez]

Not everything should be changed. Reason: Because that would be out of order. Imagine a cat barking instead of meowing.

The same applied to women going to college, having the right to vote, having the right to buy property, open a bank account, inherit from an estate, etc. Some of which are perfectly "natural" now. I don't think you're complaining that these traditions have changed.

 

If you want to be in what can be described as a "traditional" relationship, go for it. Find yourself a like-minded traditional man (there are plenty of them out there). But to prescribe to others how they ought to go about life on the basis of your own personal preferences, is taking it a bit too far.

[carhill]

Do most men even want to get married anymore?

 

Unknown. Most of the young guys I have contact with don't even use the word. They have girlfriends, 'baby's mamas', 'shack up', move from one partner to another and generally live life very casually. That's pretty alien to me.

 

I realize plenty of guys marry for love and love alone... it just doesn't seem like it.

 

My impetus was a combination of love and the perspective that, by appearances at the time, my exW and I would make a great team, a concept I was socialized with.

 

So what is it? I hear the rumor is most women DO issue some sort of ultimatum (it may not be as direct as "Marry me or I'll dump you," but sometimes even just, "By December, I'm going to start dating other people.") and that's what gets the ball rolling.

 

I do read that a fair amount here on LS so it must have traction. If a man is obviously marriage-centric, I think it would be less of an issue. An easy way to determine that is to ask him how he feels about marriage, in a general sense, early in the dating/get-to-know process. Then see how his actions match up with those words.

 

Is there ever a time when it's OK for a woman to propose?

 

IMO, it's as OK as a man 'proposing'. Nowadays things are so casual. For me, the proposal was a combination of humor, surprise and formality. For many folks, it's 'hey, let's get hitched'. No proscribed 'rules' to follow. Do what works for you and the guy. If it works out, you'll get married. If not, you won't.

[january2011]

These questions have crossed my mind quite a bit over the last few months. I've done quite a bit of reading around the subject, from internet forums to research. I don't have any answers yet. I think it all comes down to the individual couple for both questions.

 

My ex proposed when he felt an overwhelming feeling of love. He felt that we were ready to, "move to the next step," and there were a number of external events that made him think about his future and our future. He was also becoming more financially stable. At that point, we'd been together for almost ten years and had been living together for over half that time. Over a period of six monthsm, he proposed twice and I said, "no," twice. There might have been a third time if I hadn't nipped it in the bud. With hindsight, I should have let him go much earlier when I realised that I was no longer in love with him and didn't want to marry him or have children with him. He really missed the window of opportunity - years ago, I would have said yes, but a girl can only wait so long before the thought that your SO doesn't want to marry you eats away at you. By the time he came around, it was too late. He married his former girlfriend about eight months after we broke up.

 

As to my current SO, we've talked quite a bit about marriage and our future together. He has baggage that makes him somewhat wary about marriage. And my baggage tells me that I don't want to live with a guy again unless marriage and kids are on the table. I'll be looking to move on if nothing happens at the two-year mark. From our conversations, I know that he wants to do the proposing, so the ball is in his court.