Why Do People think Lowly Of Hookers?

[123321]

I've posted a number of studies that show the vast majority of prostitutes are not willing participants but are forced, and that legalization actually tends to make this worse not better.

 

The data I posted shows that prostitution is essentially a modern day slave trade.

 

Many farm laborers in SEA are trafficked young men, let's outlaw farming.

 

See how idiotic that sounds?

 

First, the data claims to show correlation, not causation, and they are likely to be deeply flawed for the reasons I already gave. I have interviewed hundreds of hookers, and for you, I will go interview 50 or so more this week. I've NEVER had one complain of being forced to work, and I've never had one show me an ID that said they were under age.

 

Finally, you outlaw the slavery, not the farming, see first sentence for context.

[zengirl]

Okay I'll agree they don't prove causation, but they definitely don't prove causation the other way that legalization prevents or even reduces trafficking.

 

No, alone legalizing does not do that. However, in order to truly crack down on trafficking effectively and make the profession safer for those who practice it willfully, legalization makes pragmatic sense as a first step --- then you need to dedicate law enforcement, including those who'd be used to arrest willful prostitutes (who are caught more often and easily than trafficking rings), who we've no social need to arrest and who no social good comes from arresting, to the task of cracking down on trafficking. Together, legalizing, regulating, and a crackdown on trafficking would likely work to reduce, but sadly not eliminate, trafficking. It would make the people trafficked and who see it more likely to come forward, it would create a legal market that would hurt the black market, etc, etc. It helps but does not do anything without strong law enforcement priorities against trafficking.

[123321]

What keeping it illegal does is to move it into a completely unregulated black market. If you are concerned about safety of the workers but also want to minimize the industry itself, you legalize it but then tax and regulate/restrict it up to the margin where a black market begins to develop, then back off a little bit. That keeps it above the table but keeps it small.

 

Exactly.

 

Prohibition of a good or service people have a high demand for essentially never has the desired outcome, instead the organizations that arise and prosper to service the proscribed demand cause more issues than ever. We really should have learned that one by now, but apparently not.

 

What does work is to decriminalize it so that competition brings profits down, and run public education and other service campaigns to mitigate it over time.

[123321]

Together, legalizing, regulating, and a crackdown on trafficking would likely work to reduce, but sadly not eliminate, trafficking.

 

Once prostitution is legal the face of trafficking changes by definition to exclude a lot of harmless activities as well.

[KathyM]

Yes you are wasting your time. As many people have said to you; men cheat with everyone not just prostitutes. I don't advertise for married men specifically, just men in general. Of course I feel bad for anyone that has been cheated on. But this is my job; what I think and feel about cheating is irrelevant.

I'm not blaming just prostitutes for breaking up marriages through enabling infidelity. I've given women and men in general a lot of heat on this board who would knowingly go after a married person and seduce them, or knowingly engage in an affair or ONS with a married person with no regard for the consequences of their behavior. If you did actually feel bad for the families of your customers who are married (the majority), you would not be in that line of work.

[123321]

If you did actually feel bad for the families of your customers who are married (the majority), you would not be in that line of work.

 

I see a LOT of guys going with hookers here, almost none are married, most are divorced, some have one or more part time GF as well.

[Els]

By that line of reasoning, knife-makers, car-makers, ammunition-makers, print shop workers, and virtually anyone with a production job, should not be in their line of work...

[casey1989]

I'm not blaming just prostitutes for breaking up marriages through enabling infidelity. I've given women and men in general a lot of heat on this board who would knowingly go after a married person and seduce them, or knowingly engage in an affair or ONS with a married person with no regard for the consequences of their behavior. If you did actually feel bad for the families of your customers who are married (the majority), you would not be in that line of work.

 

Again you are wrong, I can emphasise with a person, but that doesn't mean that will affect my life choices. I can name lots of professions where you have to put your personal feelings aside for professionalism. Therapists, Lawyers and Doctors are all classic examples of this. I am not paid to be judge, jury and executioner, but to provide a service.

 

I would be severely limited in career choices if I had to consider the negative impact of my career on others. In fact just about everyone would.

 

Could I really live with myself by serving that fat man a burger, when I know it's going to make him fatter?

 

Also as I have stated my clients come from all walks of life.

[KathyM]

You're been heard. Don't bother too much with those who aren't interested in hearing a different perspective. Just state your case and let the largely silent majority make up their own minds from that.

 

Prostitution was legalized six or so years ago in my country. There has been no discernible increase in anything - good or bad - in that time. In other words, nothing has changed as a consequence. As for human trafficking, that's a far bigger issue than prostitution in my view. Nonetheless, that, as a percentage of those working within the industry represents a tiny minority of those involved. Your average punter will not come across them in the developed world.

 

As for prostitution wrecking marriages, common sense dictates that if this were true then this practice would have attracted far stiffer law enforcement than has been the case throughout its history.

 

As for the workers themselves, to me, its just another profession. I look down on them no more than I look down on cleaners, garbage workers, supermarket staff, doctors, nurses and so forth. It's just another job - something that most people freely choose to do.

 

.

The vast majority of people who are trafficked are done so for the purposes of prostitution. Women and children are trafficked into countries that are developed and those that aren't. Countries like the U.S. and European countries, as well as other countries. The customer has no way of knowing who is there against their will and who is not. So you don't think infidelity with a prostitute destroys marriages? Let me tell you something, buddy, infidelity destroys marriages. Wives are not OK with that, believe it or not. Other jobs are not destroying marriages. The job description is enabling men to cheat on their wives for money. Let's not put that in the same category as doctors trying to save people's lives. I'd put that job in the same category as a drug dealer trying to sell drugs to people. At least a drug dealer isn't enabling a married man to break his vows and cheat on his wife, although that is a destructive "profession" as well. So let's not try to whitewash this job. It's destructive to marriages and to the children of those marriages.

[casey1989]

The vast majority of people who are trafficked are done so for the purposes of prostitution. Women and children are trafficked into countries that are developed and those that aren't. Countries like the U.S. and European countries, as well as other countries. The customer has no way of knowing who is there against their will and who is not. So you don't think infidelity with a prostitute destroys marriages? Let me tell you something, buddy, infidelity destroys marriages. Wives are not OK with that, believe it or not. Other jobs are not destroying marriages. The job description is enabling men to cheat on their wives for money. Let's not put that in the same category as doctors trying to save people's lives. I'd put that job in the same category as a drug dealer trying to sell drugs to people. At least a drug dealer isn't enabling a married man to break his vows and cheat on his wife, although that is a destructive "profession" as well. So let's not try to whitewash this job. It's destructive to marriages and to the children of those marriages.

 

Kathy why are you so intent on blaming other people for a husband's actions? You go on about the other woman or prostitutes etc, but you haven't addressed the fact that if a man wants to cheat there is something very wrong there. It doesn't matter whether he has an assistant that is hot or whether there are alluring photos of me online, the fact is he has CHOSEN to do something which he knows is not right. If a man wants to be loyal then he will be loyal.

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the marriage or that the woman is to blame, because there are other ways of dealing with issues without cheating, but I feel like you see women as objects that men can't resist, and that is simply not true.

 

Also just because you don't see the value of my industry- that doesn't mean there isn't one. As for drug dealing... thats straight up illegal... what I do is legal, and heavily taxed might I add .

 

Also I'm sure that plenty of marriages have broken down due to drug abuse. Are you saying it's the drug dealers fault?

[KathyM]

I don't know about all this. You're equating her to something like the tobacco producers who provide something people should know better than to consume. Or fast food or a hundred other vices. I don't buy into the idea that she's culpable for the damage done to families by men who should know better, any more than I think McDonalds is responsible for making people fat.

 

As far as commitments, the arrangement is between her and the guys she's with and no one else, the way I see it. As opposed to a mistress, for Casey the guy's family is irrelevant. If the commitments are being broken, they aren't by her. She doesn't pressure for them to leave their wives. She doesn't develop relationships with the guys. The only thing she demands from them is payment. They still have a home life to take care of, and she isn't actively interfering with that.

 

It's repulsive, I'm sure, especially to the wives, to know what the guys do with Casey. I wouldn't do it myself. But it's the guys who have to answer for it. They sought her out. I'm sure she wasn't walking around hanging flyers on their doorknobs.

 

Lung cancer breaks apart families in more drastic ways. Alcohol does. Porn does. Video games do. Sometimes livestock does, I imagine. Careers do. Extended families do. Prostitution might. It's a pretty weak form of infidelity.

 

I think there are probably stronger arguments to be made against it. There must be some better moral ammunition to use against Casey.

She's enabling men to cheat on their wives. Through that action, she is assisting them in the destruction of their marriages and families. People should know better than to take harmful, addictive, illegal drugs--does that mean we should respect and legalize the profession of drug dealer. They are just doing their job too, by your logic.

 

Prostitutes are not the innocent party here, unless they are being forced into the profession against their will, and by Casey's own admission, she is not. She is actively advertising her services to men, knowing full well that many of them will be married and cheating on their wives. That's destructive.

 

Using a prostitute is no less of an act of infidelity than using a non-paid person for a ONS. Both break marital vows and destroy trust. Both destroy a marriage and a family. Infidelity is a lot more devastating to a marriage than watching video games, or working late. All it takes is one betrayal, and the marriage will be over. It breaks the trust which is the foundation of a marriage.

 

Well, I've used plenty of moral arguments as to why this "profession" is harmful. It entices and enables men to cheat on their wives, which causes their marriages and families to be destroyed. It allows men to exploit women through human trafficking and coersion. It puts the lives of prostitutes at risk for violence and degrades women. If that's not enough moral argument for you, then I don't know what is.

[zengirl]

By that line of reasoning, knife-makers, car-makers, ammunition-makers, print shop workers, and virtually anyone with a production job, should not be in their line of work...

 

Precisely. I'm not sure why having sex with a man who happens to be married (not seeking a married man, just taking his money for services rendered) is less terrible than making weapons. Hell, some people make and contribute to the manufacturing of weapons of mass destruction and get more respect than hookers.

[Anela]

Also I'm sure that plenty of marriages have broken down due to drug abuse. Are you saying it's the drug dealers fault?

 

They sell something highly addictive, for a lot of money (usually), and don't care about the fact that it hurts people. I'm sure they love repeat customers, too. They are partially to be blamed. "I didn't force him/her to take heroin." No, but they made it easy for them to get it, and took advantage of their need to get high. Their only interest is the money involved, and they don't give a damn about the health of their customer, and what they might be trying to escape. Do you think they recommend therapy, or couple's counselling, before giving them the drug? I doubt that most care that they might be taking the money for food and shelter of a wife and children, either.

[casey1989]

They sell something highly addictive, for a lot of money (usually), and don't care about the fact that it hurts people. I'm sure they love repeat customers, too. They are partially to be blamed. "I didn't force him/her to take heroin." No, but they made it easy for them to get it, and took advantage of their need to get high. Their only interest is the money involved, and they don't give a damn about the health of their customer, and what they might be trying to escape. Do you think they recommend therapy, or couple's counselling, before giving them the drug? I doubt that most care that they might be taking the money for food and shelter of a wife and children, either.

 

So what you are basically saying, is that adults who are fully informed of their choices should be baby sat?

At the end of the day we all make our own individual decisions and should be smart enough to know that our own actions have consequences for us and those we love. It is not for a stranger to try and protect your own family, it is your responsibility.

 

Also I do not believe that drug dealers are easily accesible, I for one would have no idea how to get drugs. Why? Because I have no interest in it.

[KathyM]

I see a LOT of guys going with hookers here, almost none are married, most are divorced, some have one or more part time GF as well.

I'm assuming you work for a brothel in some capacity, so your opinion is not exactly unbiased. But unless you're checking government records for marital status, you really don't know the marital status or relationship status of these guys that use prostitutes. So I'll take the statistics I've read at more value.

[KathyM]

By that line of reasoning, knife-makers, car-makers, ammunition-makers, print shop workers, and virtually anyone with a production job, should not be in their line of work...

Well, let's see, out of the billions of knives produced in the world for people to use as tools for good use, if .000000000001% of those knives were used by a criminal to do harm through no fault of the manufacturer, I would say the guy behind that production line can feel absolved from guilt. You can't say the same for a woman who knowingly entices and advertises to married men and whose customers are mostly married men.

[Els]

Well, let's see, out of the billions of knives produced in the world for people to use as tools for good use, if .000000000001% of those knives were used by a criminal to do harm through no fault of the manufacturer, I would say the guy behind that production line can feel absolved from guilt. You can't say the same for a woman who knowingly entices and advertises to married men and whose customers are mostly married men.

 

As I said before, in most countries where prostitution is legal, soliciting is strictly not allowed, unless the customer has already voluntarily entered the premises.

 

Now, assuming the man has already entered a brothel, he has already made the conscious decision to cheat on his wife. I'm not sure how you think the 'enabler' makes this any worse. I don't know what you would think if your partner didn't cheat on you because he tried and just couldn't get anyone to do it, but to me, that is every bit as bad as cheating. Whether or not he succeeded doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, the damage has already been done.

[somedude81]

As I said before, in most countries where prostitution is legal, soliciting is strictly not allowed, unless the customer has already voluntarily entered the premises.

 

Now, assuming the man has already entered a brothel, he has already made the conscious decision to cheat on his wife. I'm not sure how you think the 'enabler' makes this any worse. I don't know what you would think if your partner didn't cheat on you because he tried and just couldn't get anyone to do it, but to me, that is every bit as bad as cheating. Whether or not he succeeded doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, the damage has already been done.

Shoo, your sound logic has no place in this thread.

[Scottdmw]

Nobody said that it does. You need strong law enforcement to stop trafficking. Of course legalization of prostitution by itself does nothing to prevent trafficking.

 

What legalization does do, however, assuming that law enforcement is enacted alongside it, is to protect the rights and safety of the women who are employed in that profession. That is only common sense. If you are employed in a legal business with bouncers, STD checks and condoms, etc, you are going to be safer than if you are doing it on the sly without all of the above being mandatory.

 

 

Does it? Did you read the article I posted on legalized prostitution in Australia? It says there are something like 100 legal brothels and 400 illegal ones. Why might that be? Maybe because there is a large demand for underage women. Maybe men would really rather not use condoms and thus there is a demand for prostitutes that don't require it. Maybe some men don't want a brothel with bouncers around, because they enjoy getting away with a certain amount of abuse.

 

You claim that legalization helps protect women and say it's common sense, but your common sense doesn’t sound compelling to me and further there is data that suggests it's wrong.

 

Do you have any data or evidence that shows legalization protects women, especially trafficked, forced, and underaged women?

 

Let's leave that aside for a minute though. Here's a more important question. Do you care about the women who are forced and trafficked? Does their situation bother you? Do you agree with the data that says the large majority of prostitutes are trafficked, and agree that that's bad?

 

Scott

[KathyM]

Again you are wrong, I can emphasise with a person, but that doesn't mean that will affect my life choices. I can name lots of professions where you have to put your personal feelings aside for professionalism. Therapists, Lawyers and Doctors are all classic examples of this. I am not paid to be judge, jury and executioner, but to provide a service.

 

I would be severely limited in career choices if I had to consider the negative impact of my career on others. In fact just about everyone would.

 

Could I really live with myself by serving that fat man a burger, when I know it's going to make him fatter?

 

Also as I have stated my clients come from all walks of life.

Doctors aren't helping to destroy lives, my dear, they are helping to save lives. How dare you equate what you do with what a doctor does. Therapists are trying to help people to get their life back and become psychologically healthy. They are not destroying lives. They are helping people to improve their relationships. You are helping to destroy them.

[Scottdmw]

Many farm laborers in SEA are trafficked young men, let's outlaw farming.

 

See how idiotic that sounds?

 

First, the data claims to show correlation, not causation, and they are likely to be deeply flawed for the reasons I already gave. I have interviewed hundreds of hookers, and for you, I will go interview 50 or so more this week. I've NEVER had one complain of being forced to work, and I've never had one show me an ID that said they were under age.

 

Finally, you outlaw the slavery, not the farming, see first sentence for context.

 

Do you have data that shows upwards of 80% of farm laborers worldwide are trafficked or forced? What do you put the number at and where does your data come from?

 

You say that the studies are flawed, but you think you are getting honest answers if you personally interview a hooker? That's the problem. Surely it's obvious that prostitutes are able to pretend to enjoy their job whether they do or not. Don't you think they can also lie and pretend to be of age? Do you realize that the average prostitute has a pimp who will likely beat her bloody if she goes around telling people she is under age or being forced?

 

I know you want prostitution to be okay. Please though, consider the human side that maybe you don't see. Read this quote:

 

“He threatened to beat her and to kill her children if she did not comply. And so she stood near a roundabout recently, her hair in a greasy ponytail, charging $40 for intercourse, $27 for oral sex.

“For me, life is finished,” she said later that evening, tears running down her face. “I will never forget that I have done this.””

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/world/europe/young-men-flock-to-spain-for-sex-with-trafficked-prostitutes.html?pagewanted=all

 

That is what you are dealing with when you “interview a hooker.”

 

Scott

[casey1989]

1st of all: I was equating it in terms of the fact that you have to put your personal feelings aside, for example if you went to the doctor, you wouldn't expect him to not give you treatment based on your personal life would you?

2nd: You don't know what those people are doing in their private lives, they very well could be. The doctor could be having an affair. How do you know?

 

Plus: There are many previous working girls around you every single day, they could be your doctor, your travel agent, your best friend. You really wouldn't have a clue.

 

3rd: This is my job nothing more, it doesn't define me as a person. I play a role, and I'm very good at it. And can certainly hide my judgement much better than you my dear.

 

You didn't answer my previous question about why you are so quick to the judge the other person not the man himself?

[KathyM]

Kathy why are you so intent on blaming other people for a husband's actions? You go on about the other woman or prostitutes etc, but you haven't addressed the fact that if a man wants to cheat there is something very wrong there. It doesn't matter whether he has an assistant that is hot or whether there are alluring photos of me online, the fact is he has CHOSEN to do something which he knows is not right. If a man wants to be loyal then he will be loyal.

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the marriage or that the woman is to blame, because there are other ways of dealing with issues without cheating, but I feel like you see women as objects that men can't resist, and that is simply not true.

 

Also just because you don't see the value of my industry- that doesn't mean there isn't one. As for drug dealing... thats straight up illegal... what I do is legal, and heavily taxed might I add .

 

Also I'm sure that plenty of marriages have broken down due to drug abuse. Are you saying it's the drug dealers fault?

If it weren't for enablers that have no respect for marriage or concern for the consequences of banging a MM, there would be no infidelity. But as long as there are women willing to stoop so low, who only think of their own pocketbook and don't care who they hurt in the process, there will be men willing to take them up on what they are offering. So I put the blame on both. It takes two to cheat--the cheater and the enabler who doesn't care if he's married. In most countries in the world, except for a few, prostitution is still illegal, and for good reason. But regardless of whether it is legal or not, it still destroys marriages, families, and encourages human trafficking.

[Els]

 

Let's leave that aside for a minute though. Here's a more important question. Do you care about the women who are forced and trafficked? Does their situation bother you? Do you agree with the data that says the large majority of prostitutes are trafficked, and agree that that's bad?

 

Scott

 

Most certainly. I come from a country in which prostitution is illegal, and is also part of one of the largest human trafficking rings in the world. Just a hint: It's a close neighbour to one of the Asian countries that people go to to get 'any sort of sex they could ever dream of that would be illegal where they are'. I grew up knowing this. I have many habits ingrained in me from such an upbringing, for instance, making sure not to walk past vans parked at the side of the road, even in broad daylight and in public areas. Far too many kidnappings of women, and we all knew where they went.

 

Because prostitution was 'illegal' there, it was all one huge shadowy mess where you couldn't even tell who was consensually there and who was not, so authorities couldn't focus on the forced ones. Everything was illegal, so nothing was regulated. Those women would hang around on seedy streets after midnight and invite you to hotel rooms.

 

As soon as I could, I moved to a country where law enforcement actually did its damn job. Where women weren't afraid to walk alone in broad daylight and you hear prostitutes talking about their (legal) jobs in the media. Instead of hanging around seedy streets, the women had businesses with security and medical benefits. So much better.

 

You and Kathy can talk all you like about statistics, but it takes living in such a place to actually understand what human trafficking is all ABOUT. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with legal prostitution. And people who disagree with you aren't necessarily doing it because they don't care. Have you ever thought that perhaps they do care just as much, they just understand the harsh face of reality better?

[Els]

Doctors aren't helping to destroy lives, my dear, they are helping to save lives. How dare you equate what you do with what a doctor does. Therapists are trying to help people to get their life back and become psychologically healthy. They are not destroying lives. They are helping people to improve their relationships. You are helping to destroy them.

 

You do know that doctors are legally and ethically required to treat criminals, even mass murderers, rapists, and the like. If they did not treat them, that person would die and not be able to repeat his crime. How does that not fit in with your 'enabling' theory?

 

I'm not saying that doctors and prostitutes are the same, I'm saying that your theory is hogwash.