Why Do People think Lowly Of Hookers?

[123321]

With respect to human trafficking, the only rational conclusion is that legalized prostitution will stamp it out entirely. In a regulated regime, the legal elements will whistleblow on illegal competition constantly, maybe even by unions.

 

Here is a concrete example of how trafficking statistics get cooked:

 

At least 17 female dancers including a 17-year-old girl who were rescued from a night club in Cebu City were turned over to social workers at 12 a.m. last Saturday.

 

Social worker Maria Gemma Ompad told Cebu Daily News that the female dancers who worked at the Sister's Bar in Gen. Maxilom Avenue come from Cebu City, Negros Oriental, Camotes Island, Dalaguete and Moalboal towns.

 

In a phone interview, Ompad said 15 women claimed to be adults and only one admitted that she was below 18 years old.

 

They have yet to verify reports that there were five minors in the group.

The manager and cashier face human trafficking charges and were given 15 days to submit their counter-affidavits.

 

Ompad said most of the women worked in the bar for about a year, while the teenage girl admitted working there for several weeks.

 

Ompad said the women wore skimpy shorts, makeup and sleeveless blouses when they arrived at the DSWD.

 

Most of them graduated from high school while the 17-year-old only finished third year high school.

 

“They said they earn P200 a night and they dance from 7 p.m. to 3 a.m. They also earn P60 for every ladies drink sold.” Ompad said.

 

The 17-year-old girl said her parents were unemployed.

 

“Some of them (rescued women) admitted that they have kids, some have live-in partners who are unemployed, some of them ran away from home and came from a broken family.” Ompad said.

 

Ompad said the women were rescued by police from the bar last Friday night after receiving a tip that they were victims of human trafficking. Eight women were discharged yesterday afternoon after they submitted documents certifying that they were adults.

 

Nine women including the minor remained under their custody. “They were complaining when they arrived in DSWD because they lost their jobs. They said they have families feed),” Ompad said.

 

She said they admitted that they applied for work in the bar and they were not recruited.

 

Ompad said they will assist the women who wanted to continue their studies.

“If they plan to continue their studies, we will recommend them. We have educational programs,” Ompad said.

 

A few choice things to note. First, to get employment in this bar, the employees must go and get a city issued license to work in the age restricted (serving alcohol) establishment. All the women, even the underage one, had their city issued license.

 

The bar operator was attempting to comply with age laws but the young lady tricked the city and the employer.

 

Now the NGO interviews are completed soon, but the trial is not. The NGO trafficking stats will show 18 or so incidences of human trafficking, but in fact when the dust settles, one at most will be real. Probably zero.

 

Also note that the women are "rescued" even though "they admitted that they applied for work in the bar and they were not recruited" and “They were complaining when they arrived in DSWD because they lost their jobs" in the ruckus.

 

When it all boils down, the article essentially accuses the establishment of having scantily clad women (not nude, but in sleeveless outfits!) being paid to dance in a bar, and having been fooled by some city issued licenses.

[Scottdmw]

 

With respect to human trafficking, the only rational conclusion is that legalized prostitution will stamp it out entirely. In a regulated regime, the legal elements will whistleblow on illegal competition constantly, maybe even by unions. Would be funny to see the giant inflatable rat turned out on illegal brothels. Moreoever, the illegal elements will stick out. Moreover, in a legalized regulatory regime, more willing participants will enter the trade crowding out unwilling participants as a matter of market quality control. Moreover, governments in a regulated regime seem to "wake up" to lots of lost tax revenue, penalties go up, enforcement is stricter. Corporate prostitution will crowd out inefficient and harmful pimping generally, just as corporate interests crowded the mob out of Vegas. Stating that legal prostitution will increase trafficking is the equivalent of stating that legalized gambling increases illegal gambling, a nonstarter.

 

Not necessarily true. With legalized gambling for example the legal version can offer everything the customers want. With prostitution, some customers want underage girls, want to abuse women/girls, etc. They want things that legal prostitution cannot provide.

 

Also, there is not a flexible and unlimited supply of willing prostitutes at any price. If legalization increases the demand supply has to come from somewhere, and that can be from trafficking usually.

 

But, as I've been arguing at length with others on this thread, we should be looking at what actually has happened rather than what we think might happen. Here's some evidence:

 

Richard Poulin, PhD, Professor of Sociology at the University of Ottawa, wrote "The Legalization of Prostitution and Its Impact on Trafficking in Women and Children" posted Feb. 6, 2005 on Sisyphe.org:

"Although there was a belief that legalization would make possible control of the sex industry, the illegal industry is now 'out of control'. Police in Victoria [Australia] estimate that there are 400 illegal brothels as against 100 legal ones. Trafficking in women and children from other countries has increased significantly. The legalization of prostitution in some parts of Australia has thus resulted in a net growth of the industry. One of the results has been the trafficking in women and children to 'supply' legal and illegal brothels. The 'sex entrepreneurs' have difficulty recruiting women locally to supply an expanding industry, and women from trafficking are more vulnerable and more profitable."

 

 

Do you have any evidence of specific cases where legalization has decreased the prevalence of trafficking, nonconsensual prostitution, or underage prostitution?

 

Scott

[Els]

If a person were to systematically interview women in one of these places and record the results, that would be data. If a person simply lives in these areas and happens to talk to whoever they talk to, forming a personal impression, that is not data. In either case it only applies to the particular location, not entire countries like the evidence I was presenting.

 

So what do you think about the rape statistics that I linked, that encompass and compare entire countries?

 

 

Are people not allowed to not have their minds made up on any issue?

 

No, actually, not if you're intent on debating that issue, as you seem to be attempting to do. Otherwise, sure. For instance, I don't have a stand on which political party I feel is best suited to dredge America out of its current economic situation. That is why you don't see me getting into debates with people about that in the politics section. What is the purpose of debating if you don't even KNOW what stance you're taking? Other than to ruffle feathers, that is.

 

 

Okay, I agree they are pro-legalization articles. I think we can agree that trafficking is the more important problem and that legalization by itself is not going to solve it.

 

I think it's possible we may have both forgotten the original context in which certain points came up. I suggest resetting the debate a little bit. The main points I'm trying to make are that the large majority of women in prostitution worldwide are not there consensually, that very often they are also under age, that trafficking plays a role in this, and that some data indicates legalization may make the problem worse.

 

One study about one country based on statistics gathered by authorities suggests that legalization may increase trafficking, as defined by the study, in that country, yes.

 

My secondary points are that people should pay attention to data not personal experiences and

 

Data when taken without context and appropriate real-life pragmatism is meaningless in social sciences, is my opinion. I am still interested in what you think about the rape statistics that I posted.

 

originally that prostitution is generally harmful for all participants and best avoided for one's own sake (which we already discussed at the beginning). Those are the things I’m concerned with. Do you disagree with them?

 

Scott

 

I agree with this. What do you feel about all the points that have been made about the OTHER benefits of legalization, leaving trafficking aside?

[Els]

There would also need to be an unbiased panel to deem what constitutes "equivalent." I'm pretty sure that there are women who would feel "equivalent" to SD but whom he would feel were beneath his standards.

 

How do we sort through the complicated issues about what qualities balance out others in order to achieve this elusive equanimity? For example, is a girl who is a so-called "10" in the looks department but who is functionally illiterate and a member of the Aryan Sisterhood roughly equal to a girl who might be a "7" and has short, kind of clumpy hair, but kind, compassionate and hilarious as well as being an expert at oral sex?

 

Does a wealthy person's riches bring them into the same realm of a beautiful person's looks? Or are the rich required to stick with other rich people, and beautiful ones with other beauties? And ugly rich people can only be with other ugly rich people, while beautiful poor people must seek others like them in those aeas?

 

Does a woman with one breast equal a man with one testicle? Or one leg?

 

According to SD's perspective, I believe that the only qualities that are judged in oder to deem "equivalence" are physical beauty, weight, and age. Boob size is included for women - but which quality in a man is "equivalent" to a c cup in a girl?? The size of his wiener?

 

Who's in charge of figuring all of this out?

 

I'm concerned that my husband and I are not "equivalent." I'm much prettier than he is, and younger. Plus, he's short.

 

I also have larger boobs than my bf, though for some reason his wiener is larger than mine. Oh no?

[d'Arthez]

I also have larger boobs than my bf, though for some reason his wiener is larger than mine. Oh no?

I'd be worrying for your relationship if it were the other way around. Or at least worry for the health of the both of you.

[KathyM]

You are aware of how the internet works right... you actually have to seek something out... funnily enough a sexy picture of me and my number doesn't flash up on screen saying CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE when you turn your laptop on !!!

 

The temptation comes from sexualisation of our culture... sex is everywhere... from porn to music videos, saying that hookers are the cause of the temptation is just ridiculous.

 

Maybe you wouldn't have to... but maybe you would always be wondering when he was going to think that again? When will it actually happen?

 

It's a **** situation either way.

Well, apparently you live a very sheltered internet life. All I have to do is go to Craigslist if I want to buy or sell something, like used sporting equipment, electronics, household goods, etc., and there, on the same front page is "Casual Encounters", on which prostitutes advertise their services and often post their pictures. Let's say the husband was just curious one night when he was looking for a used computer on Craigslist, and opened the category "Casual Encounters". In fact, I get pop-ups all the time on my personal laptop (that only I have the password for) that could tempt a person, and I haven't purposely gone looking on the internet for prostitute websites. All I have to do is click on a link that may seem innocuous, but could lead to advertisements that serve as a temptation. I get pop-ups for "Get Laid Tonight", or any number of other ones, based on links or websites that I have gone to with no intention of finding a hooker. So it's pretty easy to be tempted, and for hookers to advertise their services online. Let's not kidd ourselves. If a husband is going through a rough patch with his wife, he may be tempted to click on those links or websites some night when he's feeling low, and as long as there are women ready and willing to help him betray his vows, the threat will be there. I'm not letting the husbands off the hook, or women who are not prostitutes that knowingly go after married men. But I'm not letting prostitutes off either for knowingly advertising to married men, and knowingly having sex with married men, with no regard for who is hurt in the process.

[Els]

Umm, Kathy. The majority of those popups that you claim to see are actually malware and adware fodder. The links lead to malicious sites that hijack your browser session or harvest information for spam lists or steal your credit card information should you be stupid enough to key it in, etc. The pictures of girls are only used to mislead people into going there. Legit prostitution businesses do not actually do that. I can't believe you think those 'HOT GIRLS IN KANSAS!' photos are real. The women advertised usually don't even exist.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Elswyth

[123321]

One study about one country based on statistics gathered by authorities suggests that legalization may increase trafficking, as defined by the study, in that country, yes.

 

Some locales "legalize" prostitution with such strict restrictions that there is still a huge incentive to skirt the law. It's as if you had to buy eggs in a special egg store, which couldn't do any other business, and had to be specially licensed, and zoned, and had to have food safety rules that exceeded the other regular grocery markets, and the law outlawed egg sales any other way shape or form. But the farmer could GIVE the eggs away any way they liked.

 

I suspect a few farmers would be selling direct to the neighbors, just sayin'.

[Els]

Some locales "legalize" prostitution with such strict restrictions that there is still a huge incentive to skirt the law. It's as if you had to buy eggs in a special egg store, which couldn't do any other business, and had to be specially licensed, and zoned, and had to have food safety rules that exceeded the other regular grocery markets, and the law outlawed egg sales any other way shape or form. But the farmer could GIVE the eggs away any way they liked.

 

I suspect a few farmers would be selling direct to the neighbors, just sayin'.

 

Yep, I agree. Certainly the manner in which legalization is implemented makes a huge difference. IMO NZ has found a reasonably good balance, although non-residents are not allowed to work in that field at all, so any non-citizen/resident practising in it will definitely be considered illegal/trafficked, even if they have the rights to work in any other job. Not certain about what Australia did wrong.

[somedude81]

Some locales "legalize" prostitution with such strict restrictions that there is still a huge incentive to skirt the law. It's as if you had to buy eggs in a special egg store, which couldn't do any other business, and had to be specially licensed, and zoned, and had to have food safety rules that exceeded the other regular grocery markets, and the law outlawed egg sales any other way shape or form. But the farmer could GIVE the eggs away any way they liked.

 

I suspect a few farmers would be selling direct to the neighbors, just sayin'.

That's how prostitution works in Nevada.

[123321]

That's how prostitution works in Nevada.

 

I really only know how it works here first hand because if I want to go into an air-conditioned sports bar, it's going to be stocked with hookers here, that's just how it works.

 

Everything else is just what I've read.

[KathyM]

Your answer leaves me with more questions than it answers. Is that a no, or a yes? 'No, but at least I would not...' sounds a whole lot like 'yes, it is better that he just wanted to but couldn't because... ', except in a more roundabout way. If there is an 'at least', then surely the alternative is better in your eyes?

 

Extrapolating to 'if no women would ever sleep with married men, then no married men would even THINK about cheating' is completely out of the topic either. It's like calling someone who eats meat an 'enabler' of killing animals, because if no one ate meat, we would not need to kill animals. Or calling someone who uses a CFC producing product a 'killer of future generations' because if no one used CFC producing products, the ozone layer would not be thinning. I hope you get the point. But I have a feeling you won't, because to you, prostitutes are separate from all laws of logic that define everything else. We've given analogy after analogy with other professions, issues that are potentially harmful/bad for health, etc, and each time you have insisted that they are not equivalent according to your moral yardstick. Which is fine, except I don't see why you feel the need to impose that yardstick on everyone else.

How does this answer satisfy you? Yes, I would feel better knowing that my husband didn't go through with sex with a hooker, than I would if he was tempted to, or made attempts to, but never managed to go through with it. Of course, if there weren't women out there purposely trying to seduce him, and sell their sexual favors to him, knowing full well he was married, then we wouldn't have this problem, would we?

 

btw, a meat eater is an enabler of killing animals. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since God gave man dominion over animals to be used as food, but I did want to point out that if there is no supply, there will be no consumption. If there weren't women willing to have sex with a married man, there would be no infidelity. Infidelity is harmful to marriages and children--surely you realize that. It's not just my moral yardstick that is involved here. Infidelity devastates all marriages, and when women are all too willing to engage in that with a MM, then they will be accomplises to the destruction of a marriage and a family. And certainly women who do this for a living, f*ucking several men a day, many of whom are married, like some freaking assembly line, are doing more than their fair share of damage to marriages and families. If there was no supply, no women willing to help that man to break his vows, there would be no infidelity.

[somedude81]

What I mean by works, is that in Nevada, the only legal prostitution is done in regulated brothels. And the brothels can only be in counties with a population under 400,000. Meaning not in the country where Las Vegas is.

 

Average price in a brothel seems to be $200 for 15 minutes. Plus condoms are required for both vaginal and oral sex.

 

Definitely not worth the trip.

[123321]

If there was no supply, no women willing to help that man to break his vows, there would be no infidelity.

 

Sounds like someone would be down for making fornication a crime. I can respect the consistency of your views if nothing else.

[casey1989]

Well, apparently you live a very sheltered internet life. All I have to do is go to Craigslist if I want to buy or sell something, like used sporting equipment, electronics, household goods, etc., and there, on the same front page is "Casual Encounters", on which prostitutes advertise their services and often post their pictures. Let's say the husband was just curious one night when he was looking for a used computer on Craigslist, and opened the category "Casual Encounters". In fact, I get pop-ups all the time on my personal laptop (that only I have the password for) that could tempt a person, and I haven't purposely gone looking on the internet for prostitute websites. All I have to do is click on a link that may seem innocuous, but could lead to advertisements that serve as a temptation. I get pop-ups for "Get Laid Tonight", or any number of other ones, based on links or websites that I have gone to with no intention of finding a hooker. So it's pretty easy to be tempted, and for hookers to advertise their services online. Let's not kidd ourselves. If a husband is going through a rough patch with his wife, he may be tempted to click on those links or websites some night when he's feeling low, and as long as there are women ready and willing to help him betray his vows, the threat will be there. I'm not letting the husbands off the hook, or women who are not prostitutes that knowingly go after married men. But I'm not letting prostitutes off either for knowingly advertising to married men, and knowingly having sex with married men, with no regard for who is hurt in the process.

 

Well apparently you lead a sheltered internet life as Craigslist has now banned the advertisement of sexual services. Primarily because of at least 2 high profile serial killers that used it in order to find their victims. If a husband is going through a rough patch with his wife, and thinks that is an acceptable excuse to cheat then he is not worthy of being a husband. I don't get any pop ups on my PC and i believe that you could easily change these through the settings on your PC. Don't kid yourself that men don't actively seek out prostitutes- my website for example gets the most traffic from men actively googling escort and my town name, showing the intent to cheat.

[Els]

How does this answer satisfy you? Yes, I would feel better knowing that my husband didn't go through with sex with a hooker, than I would if he was tempted to, or made attempts to, but never managed to go through with it.

 

That was not my question, and your answer doesn't even make sense. My question was: would you feel better if your husband tried to seek women to cheat on you with but none of them would agree to it, compared to if he tried and they agreed? What is your answer to that? If he tries and no woman agrees to it (as you said), then there is no infidelity, yes?

 

btw, a meat eater is an enabler of killing animals. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since God gave man dominion over animals to be used as food

 

I'm really not even sure I should bother, now that I read this. If you are such a fundamental religionist, then you are probably also of the opinion that premarital sex and homosexual relationships are wrong simply because the Bible says so, and in that case, it would be completely impossible to have a proper discussion about prostitution and legalization with you, since that is a much greyer area.

[KathyM]

I have never once seen a hooker ad pop up on my computer, because I don't search for that sort of thing. Anyone who gets a hooker seeks one out. Hookers don't cold-call for clients that I've ever heard, whether it's legal in the country or not.

 

As Elswyth says, I still don't understand your answer. It's all no, but yes, not a clear answer to the question. Do you really think someone is only as faithful as their options? And do you really want someone who's only as faithful as their options? That's what it ultimately comes down to. Personally, I couldn't get over my husband WANTING to sleep with another woman, even if she turned him down or his credit card got declined or something, whether she was a prostitute or not.

 

But as Leigh says, I'm not sure why wives would have MORE trouble getting over a roll in the hay with a prostitute than a proper affair. Both seem bad, sure, but a proper affair is even worse. A transaction at least leaves the emotional part out of it. But, honestly, my man wanting to cheat would be enough to end a marriage, so I just don't get the 'temptation' angle.

I don't search for hooker ads either, yet I get pop ups on my personal laptop which is password protected and only I use that advertise "Get Laid Tonight", or I go to Craigslist to sell some used sporting goods, and there on the same page is the "Casual Encounters" section where hookers are advertising their services to anyone who goes to Craigslist. They advertise--let's not kidd ourselves. Or they go up to a man at a gas station, or at a hotel he may be staying at on business, or even on the street. We don't live in a bubble. Hookers approach men without men seeking them out. I've seen it with my own eyes. Surely you can't be this naive.

[KathyM]

Sounds like someone would be down for making fornication a crime. I can respect the consistency of your views if nothing else.

At least with fornication, the woman is not destroying a marriage and family.

[Els]

Password protecting your laptop does NOTHING to prevent malware spam ads from appearing on your... ROFL, never mind. This is actually becoming more funny than frustrating.

[123321]

I don't search for hooker ads either, yet I get pop ups on my personal laptop which is password protected and only I use that advertise "Get Laid Tonight", or I go to Craigslist to sell some used sporting goods, and there on the same page is the "Casual Encounters" section where hookers are advertising their services to anyone who goes to Craigslist.

 

I don't see any of that, maybe it's just you?

[casey1989]

they go up to a man at a gas station, or at a hotel he may be staying at on business, or even on the street. We don't live in a bubble. Hookers approach men without men seeking them out. I've seen it with my own eyes. Surely you can't be this naive.

 

Well in my country this is not how it works.

[denise_xo]

Oh, the poor little men, being tempted by those evil women.

[d'Arthez]

I don't search for hooker ads either, yet I get pop ups on my personal laptop which is password protected and only I use that advertise "Get Laid Tonight", or I go to Craigslist to sell some used sporting goods, and there on the same page is the "Casual Encounters" section where hookers are advertising their services to anyone who goes to Craigslist.

 

Honestly, it sounds like you or someone who is using your laptop is visiting dubious sites. "Dubious" could also be sites that advertise warez or provide you with links for downloading television series, music, movies and the like.

 

You could install an ad-blocker. That should deal with most of that stuff.

[123321]

At least with fornication, the woman is not destroying a marriage and family.

 

Are you ignorant of the definition of fornication, or do you feel the exchange of money is what makes the sex harmful to the marriage?

[denise_xo]

Well in my country this is not how it works.

 

In my country, it only works like this on particular streets of certain towns, at certain times of the day/week. It's extremely easy to avoid putting yourself in that situation. Everything else (i.e., the majority of prostitution) involves men actively seeking out women who sell sex.

 

I never get those pop ups on my machine. That must be because I use a pop up blocker. Presumably, men knows how to use those as well.