Why Do People think Lowly Of Hookers?

[threebyfate]

I realize some men would still find a way to cheat, but by your same argument, why would you criticize any women who has an affair or a ONS with a married man? By your logic, she should not be considered at fault, because if it weren't for her, it would be somebody else. Why criticize those women, which both you and Madam Chaucer routinely do on this board? They are no different and no worse than the hookers you try to support and legalize. The hypocrisy makes no sense.

I know. It's pretty funny!

[123321]

But Robert is all about, "wives, be worried about all the beautiful young ladies just waiting for your husband to open up his wallet in return for all his fantasies to be fulfilled." Which is exactly the scenario that Kathy seems to fear.

 

They both have serious issues IMO, I have no problem with seeing a hooker if you want, hooking if you want, or whatever. If the only way you can keep your husband from banging anything in a skirt is to threaten him with legal sanctions, well (1) your marriage has issues and (2) that's what a lot of women DO, like it or not.

 

As for Rob thinking they "like him", well I've been around a lot of hookers a lot of time, and they are just regular people. However they have friends, and they have people they work for, and it's RARE for those to intermingle. If he really doubts it, he should ask one of his "friends" to dinner, or a ball game, and not pay for her time.

 

My guess? Won't be happening. She has friends already more than likely, sorry Rob.

 

Does she enjoy aspects of the paid for time they spend together? Probably so, the girls I know often do. Would she spend significant time with him without a fee? Not likely. She's not enjoying it THAT much.

 

 

To try and steer this in some way back on topic, I will answer the OP question as best I can. They are looked down on because they are promiscuous, and because many women find them threatening in their availability. In the past there was great social cost to promiscuity in terms of children born without someone responsible for providing for them. This undermined the social order that was found to be at least locally optimal for population growth and advancing civilization.

 

It's not clear we strictly adhere to those values any more but a lot of the attitudes remain.

[joystickd]

I don't like what they are doing, but I would want to help them get out of a lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others, much the same way as I would counsel people who are involved in other crimes to turn their life around and seek a healthier life that is not destructive to themselves or to others.

No you don't you want to judge them.

[Robert Z]

I'm thinking you are excited about "teaching a lesson" to women, by your choice of phrases such as "putting you women on notice," etc.

 

That was one sentence out of how many posts? As for teaching a lesson to women, not really teaching a lesson as in something punitive as much as informing. Because I still have personal anger it may come across differently some times, especially when people argue about something I know to be true beyond any doubt. And women should be put on notice. It is far easier to find a girl now that it has ever been. If I had tried to do this in the past I wouldn't have even known where to start. And I never would have hired a streetwalker. There are a lot of sex-starved men out there who surely are discovering this.

 

But your negotiations with pros really don't have anything to do with my life. I am absolutely and truly not threatened by the availability of prostitutes, or of porn, or of women who might want to screw my husband. If my marriage develops problems, I STILL will not be concerning myself with such things.

 

If you have a good relationship with your husband then you probably have no reason to be worried.

 

Unwittingly, you have provided a great support on this thread for the stance of KathyM.

 

Well, I am not worried about what irrational people think.

 

There are locales where adultery is punishable with prison time, I would think that if that's what a person is really trying to legally proscribe then that is what they should make illegal.

 

Adultery being treated as a crime is ancient stuff. There are many obsolete laws on the books. It probably only applies in 99.999% of all cases to divorce court.

 

My real purpose here is to try to impress on women how big of a problem this is. Men's needs are generally treated like a joke. And if you think going long periods of time without sex doesn't cause real suffering then you don't understand men. I know now that it played a large role in nearly driving me to suicide. I can't explain it but there is clearly some deep physiology involved.

 

Secondarily, I have found that prostitution isn't at all what I expected. The dark side surely exists, and it seems that 123321 has seen some of that and perhaps partaken, but there is more to it than that. It isn't all about abuse and poor victimized women who are drugged and desperate. These girls are doing what they want to do. I am doing what I want to do. And for now, it works. There is really nothing wrong with this.

 

Last night my sister told me a joke about three men who wanted to go golfing on Christmas. Two of the men had to bribe their wives to get out of the house. The other simply had to ask for sex and his wife gladly handed him his golf clubs. Yeah, real funny.

 

Oh yes, I've taken my favorite to dinner several times now. She wouldn't give me the key to her house but we are friends. Anyone who thinks this is impossible is simply dehumanizing prostitutes and their clients.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

Heck, now that I think about it, I took my very first prostitute to dinner, off the clock. And we hardly even knew each other.

[Els]

So she didn't charge you for taking her out for a free meal? Wow!

 

She also apparently didn't charge him for the massage that he gave her later. Isn't that the hallmark of true love?

[123321]

Secondarily, I have found that prostitution isn't at all what I expected. The dark side surely exists, and it seems that 123321 has seen some of that ..... These girls are doing what they want to do.

 

They are working voluntarily, but they are generally no more "doing what they want" than I was when I was putting in 90 hour weeks turning evening and night shifts in hot, dusty, noisy, and dangerous factories.

 

It's all about balancing the money against the discomfort.

 

The work should be legal, but I wouldn't recommend it and I wouldn't call it desirable.

[nofool4u]

I don't see anyone here feeling threatened that they could be replaced by a hooker. The idea is asinine.

 

Now I absolutely agree with this. What man in their right mind would replace their wife with someone who is only good for one thing?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Now I absolutely agree with this. What man in their right mind would replace their wife with someone who is only good for one thing?

 

and a thing that is bought and paid for, rather than freely given.

 

I do believe that sexual happiness in a marriage is the responsibility of both people - though the concept that having sex with live women is a God-given right and entitlement of male humans is a side splitter.

[Robert Z]

So she didn't charge you for taking her out for a free meal? Wow!

 

Escorts normally do charge for this. Also, given that you are completely ignoring the context, which was a response to a comment by 123321, you are clearly playing defense. Now why is that? Could it be that your illusions about all of this have been shattered?

[Robert Z]

She also apparently didn't charge him for the massage that he gave her later. Isn't that the hallmark of true love?

 

Oh boy, you really are intimidated by all of this. Interesting. Yes, I not only gave a her a massage, I gave her a great orgasm. Poor poor girl.

[Robert Z]

They are working voluntarily, but they are generally no more "doing what they want" than I was when I was putting in 90 hour weeks turning evening and night shifts in hot, dusty, noisy, and dangerous factories.

 

It's all about balancing the money against the discomfort.

 

The work should be legal, but I wouldn't recommend it and I wouldn't call it desirable.

 

Granted, they are doing this for the money. But they do see it as a great opportunity. And what happens over time is that one girl starts doing it and eventually she tells a friend. After a time, the friend decides that this is so easy, she wants to try it. This is how most of the girls that I've met got into the business. They weren't lured in by some evil pimp. They were turned on to a great business opportunity by their friend.

 

None of this exludes the possibility that they can enjoy what they do. But if your position is that they don't enjoy it because they wouldn't do it if it weren't for the money, then you are arguing no one can ever enjoy any job.

[123321]

Now I absolutely agree with this. What man in their right mind would replace their wife with someone who is only good for one thing?

 

The guy with a wife that's good for nothing.

[Robert Z]

Granted, they are doing this for the money. But they do see it as a great opportunity. And what happens over time is that one girl starts doing it and eventually she tells a friend. After a time, the friend decides that this is so easy, she wants to try it. This is how most of the girls that I've met got into the business. They weren't lured in by some evil pimp. They were turned on to a great business opportunity by their friend.

 

None of this exludes the possibility that they can enjoy what they do. But if your position is that they don't enjoy it because they wouldn't do it if it weren't for the money, then you are arguing no one can ever enjoy any job.

 

This has been bothering me ever since I made the post. I was strictly wearing my business hat when I made that. This is not your typical business opportunity and I wouldn't want my daughter doing this. But for some reason these girls are okay with it. More than just okay, they seem to be highly enthusiastic!

 

Also, my wife and I did once have a good sex life. Before that I was engaged to another woman, and did my fair share of dating before that. There is no way a woman can fake it with the lights on. I know when we are both enjoying ourselves. Turn the lights off and it can be tough to be sure, but the lights are always on. And I don't recall ever seeing another woman enjoy her job quite so much.

 

This is all very complicated. I am still trying to sort it all out. It is intriguing and a bit mystifying to me that they do what they do. At this point I have to think it comes down the them liking raw sex as much as men do, with no need for emotional attachments.

 

But in a way that isn't true either. I certainly have an emotional attachment to all of these girls. It is not possible for me to be intimate with someone without immediately caring about them. There is a strange bond formed instantly. In a sense you can leapfrog into a more complex relationship than just being friends. And because there are no expectations and is a business arrangement, it is different than a one-night stand or even casual dating.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Robert Z

[Mme. Chaucer]

Escorts normally do charge for this. Also, given that you are completely ignoring the context, which was a response to a comment by 123321, you are clearly playing defense. Now why is that? Could it be that your illusions about all of this have been shattered?

 

I'm honestly sorry, because it is sad, but YOU are the one posting here who has illusions. The exact illusions that ALL good prostitutes learn how to create.

 

It's working for you, and that is a good thing for you and for the women you are helping to support with your business. But when you continue to claim that somehow you have the "inside scoop" because you have this "special" relationship with the pros you contract, you just make yourself look … kind of pathetic.

 

You're the perfect "regular."

 

 

Originally Posted by Elswyth

She also apparently didn't charge him for the massage that he gave her later. Isn't that the hallmark of true love?

 

Oh boy, you really are intimidated by all of this. Interesting. Yes, I not only gave a her a massage, I gave her a great orgasm. Poor poor girl.

 

It makes YOU seem highly defensive when you constantly label everyone who sees these relationships for what they really are (and I promise you, they are EXACTLY what they appear to the rest of us to be) as "defensive."

 

What on earth would Elswyth, donna, 123321 or I have to be defensive about regarding your transactions with prostitutes?

 

There is no way a woman can fake it with the lights on.

 

Not true, but think what you wish.

 

And, for the record, I know that plenty of prostitutes really do enjoy having sex with random men or regulars, and do have orgasms through it. Others are adept at faking. Some of them really do like their clients. Others are way better at creating an illusion than you give them credit for. Smart pros, especially in a "high end" environment, know that the johns don't want to hear sad tales of woe, usually, and prefer to feel that they are all "having fun" together. Of course, there are plenty of times that a well timed tale of woe can result in good financial benefits …

 

A "regular" like you appear to be, with known habits and preferences, who doesn't try to get "freebies" is appreciated.

[123321]

So she didn't charge you for taking her out for a free meal? Wow!

 

They will usually but not always charge for this from what I've seen. People are people and all these young ladies have their own likes, dislikes, goals, plans and so on. Some more than others.

 

Also I've been told some of the high-end escorts require a "coffee date" before anything else can be arranged.

 

Several times in the past when I was in a club infested by GROs I've had offers to meet later outside the club, even have had several offer to "sneak out" and go out with me. It happens, in those cases I was probably looking like a pretty good date/BF/whatever.

 

But then if we're honest human relationships are about what we can get (and give) to and from each other.

[Robert Z]

I have no reason to feel defensive. Others, not so much, eh?

 

It isn't difficult to realize she was playing nice because of the future returns she was anticipating when she sucked it up and suffered through an expensive meal out and a personal massage.

 

I never said the massage was off the clock. I pay to do that, and gladly so.

 

Suffered through an expensive meal, eh? Sure you're not defensive! LOL

 

I understand this really bothers you. That's okay. I'm not trying to hire you. If you need to believe that two people who share intimacy regularly can't actually enjoy each other, then I would challenge who is really being pathetic here. If you need to dehumanize anyone doing something that bothers you, then so be it.

 

The real point of this is that if anyone is getting abused, it's me, and I am perfectly fine with that. I love every minute of it!!!

[Robert Z]

It's working for you, and that is a good thing for you and for the women you are helping to support with your business. But when you continue to claim that somehow you have the "inside scoop" because you have this "special" relationship with the pros you contract, you just make yourself look … kind of pathetic.

 

I only have an inside scoop on what I have and what I've seen. Why do you feel so compelled to attack me personally? Is this really so initimidating?

 

the perfect "regular."

 

That has been my goal all along. Thank you. Is that an offer?

 

Not true, but think what you wish.

 

I suspect more that you wish. Please, we are talking basic physiology here. Do I reallly need to go into detail about swollen parts, body fluids, and various reflexes?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Robert Z

[Mme. Chaucer]

Is this really so initimidating?

 

There you go again, telling a person who has a completely different perspective than you do on a very common and well known subject "intimidated."

 

I promise you, you & what you do with prostitutes does not intimidate me. Sheesh.

 

I suspect more that you wish. Please, we are talking basic physiology here. Do I reallly need to go into detail about swollen parts, body fluids, and various reflexes?

 

I hate to break this to you, but there are plenty of swollen body parts, fluids and reflexes possible that don't mean "ORGASM" for a woman.

 

Sexual reflexes can be faked.

 

And so what if the lights are on or off? There is only so much you can actually see if you are extremely close to a person's body - like, the part that's right in front of your eyeballs.

[Robert Z]

I see it all this way, more or less.

 

Women lie to and manipulate men all the time. That is what they do. Whether it be as peace makers, match-makers, lovers, friends, wives, or mothers, woman are constantly trying to manipulate those around them, generally out of love [for the good souls], but sometimes just to get what they want. The most obvious example of the latter are the women who suddenly get pregnant when they know their manis about to leave them, or to corral one. This is probably the oldest trick inthe book and it happens all the time.

 

After meeting a fair number of women, I found those with whom I feel there is good chemistry. If the suggestion is that I suddenly stopbeing human just because I am paying for sex, that I suddenly lose the ability to sense a comfortable situation, then I would like to see justification for that argument. The fact I I don’t sense this with this everyone is evidence that it isn’t just a matter of being a professional. In fact, I would say the more “pro” a girl is, the less likely that I would find her appealing. I have been in business for over two decades and have done many deals. If you think a girl in her early 20s is so wise and clever that I can’t see through a line of bull, then you are very, very, naïve. These are basically just kids. You assign super-human characteristics to these girls, which is silly. The fact is that we are both just people in a relatively strange situation. What you want to do is to generalize what you know of some prostitutes to be true of all. You are trying to say that all prostitutes and johns are the same, which again is the height of naivety. Do you really see the world in such shallow terms?

 

I am surely being manipulated and I’m fine with that. I’ll play the game. I had to play a game with women who wanted something, while dating too. My wife pretended to be all sorts of things, until we got married, which I can tell you is so common that to many men it is a cliché. I am not alone. Women lie to and deceive men all the time. At least I know what these girls want. They know what I want. In a way it is much more honest than many men have with their girlfriend and wives. I know it’s all a game but that doesn’t mean we can’t have fun. In fact, having fun is why we play games, right?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Robert Z

[Mme. Chaucer]

Lord knows, I'm not naive. Ha!

 

If you think a girl in her early20s is so wise and clever that I can’t see through a line of bull, then you arevery, very, naïve. These are basically just kids. You assign super-humancharacteristics to these girls, which is silly.

 

A sexy and good looking girl in her early 20's can wield a tremendous amount of power over an aging, neglected, needy man, especially when she knows how to appeal to his ego and his fragile sexuality. Empires have been toppled through such dynamics, so I'm sure that your business background doesn't render you immune. Especially given your posts about the subject.

 

What you don't seem to understand is that I'm completely fine with you having this part of your life. I DO NOT "think lowly of hookers." My only problems with you are that you think that any kind of personal relationship that is not a financial transaction would be threatened by one that is, and that you really have an unrealistic view of what you are doing. Which is fine, and part of a successful transaction - but you don't need to be educating us from where you sit.

 

Not all johns are the same, it's true - but all johns have stuff in common when it comes down to this particular piece of business.

[nofool4u]

The guy with a wife that's good for nothing.

 

Then he can divorce her and find a woman that is good for something. Not a hooker.

[123321]

Then he can divorce her and find a woman that is good for something. Not a hooker.

 

First, a guy who's just been burnt long and hard by a bad marriage is unlikely to want to jump right back into another commitment, and if he's a decent guy he's going to be hesitant to go and tell women what they want to hear to get what he wants.

 

Second, some hookers are actually pretty decent people, you are presenting a false choice.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Originally Posted by nofool4u

Then he can divorce her and find a woman that is good for something. Not a hooker.

 

A hooker is good for something! At least, she better be!

[123321]

With this attitude about women I now understand many many things very clearly.

 

It sounds like Rob has had a hard time recently, so I'm cutting him some slack while he licks his wounds. It's hard to patch oneself up and look dignified at the same time.