Why Do People think Lowly Of Hookers?

[KathyM]

That's an extremely biased article.

 

 

And affairs with non-prostitutes are more accepted?

In what way is that article biased? Because it says something you men don't want to hear or admit to about yourselves? Because you want to do whatever you want and not have to psychologically deal with the negative aspects of the profession? And I didn't say that affairs with non-prostitutes are not damaging. They also damage and destroy marriages and families, but at least those are not keeping the OW in a lifestyle that puts her life and safety at risk.

[KathyM]

I can't find these citations anywhere, especially on voluntary prostitution, which needs to be separated from forced prostitution for any real examination.

 

Statistics do say that most prostitutes are physically or sexually assaulted in their work, which is why legalizing it would be excellent.

 

Well, I posted an article showing those statistics (57% of prostitutes have been sexually abused as children; 49% have been physically abused as children; 82% have been raped while in prostitution), but the moderators would not allow the article to post. The article didn't violate the TOU, so I don't see what the problem in posting that was, but whatever. I have read that from many other sources as well--that prostitutes often come from a background of physical and sexual abuse as children. Legalizing prostitution will only cause the demand to rise when there are no legal consequences for it, and lead to more human trafficking to serve the demand.

 

 

 

No I think it's literally incorrect to say that morality exists in the way you're trying to say it does since it cannot be agreed upon. I think legality should exist not for morality's sake but for the sake where actual societal harm can be proven, such as murder, theft, etc. But societal harm is not SOLELY a moral concept. I have no issues with moral concepts, but I have issues with people using moral concepts as facts, rather than opinions.

 

I have no problem with people being judgmental -- I have a problem with them passing their judgments off as factual statements, as though morality truly exists in that manner. It doesn't.

 

I see no reason that prostitution being made illegal helps prevent actual societal harm, therefore legalizing or illegalizing it comes down to moralizing, which is fairly pointless. Everyone has his/her own morality and applying yours to someone else is not just "wrong" in a moral sense (though in some morality systems it is) but in a real sense of being completely incorrect and never going to work out well.

 

 

 

See above. I'm not speaking of morals at all.

As I said above, legalizing it will only lead to greater demand for it, and more human trafficking to serve that greater demand.

[ThaWholigan]

In what way is that article biased? Because it says something you men don't want to hear or admit to about yourselves? Because you want to do whatever you want and not have to psychologically deal with the negative aspects of the profession? And I didn't say that affairs with non-prostitutes are not damaging. They also damage and destroy marriages and families, but at least those are not keeping the OW in a lifestyle that puts her life and safety at risk.

His stance is a continuation from a discussion that we had with each other in another thread to do with a man's failure to attract women going to escorts instead. Hence why he feels the article is biased.

[KathyM]

So you advocate using force against people doing what they have every right to do?

People don't have the right to use prostitutes. It's a crime in most countries. People don't have the right to traffic human beings. They don't have a right to abuse women and children. And, yes, I advocate legal consequences for those who participate. It's harmful to women, to children, and to families.

[Scottdmw]

I can't find these citations anywhere, especially on voluntary prostitution, which needs to be separated from forced prostitution for any real examination.

 

Statistics do say that most prostitutes are physically or sexually assaulted in their work, which is why legalizing it would be excellent.

 

 

 

No I think it's literally incorrect to say that morality exists in the way you're trying to say it does since it cannot be agreed upon. I think legality should exist not for morality's sake but for the sake where actual societal harm can be proven, such as murder, theft, etc. But societal harm is not SOLELY a moral concept. I have no issues with moral concepts, but I have issues with people using moral concepts as facts, rather than opinions.

 

I have no problem with people being judgmental -- I have a problem with them passing their judgments off as factual statements, as though morality truly exists in that manner. It doesn't.

 

I see no reason that prostitution being made illegal helps prevent actual societal harm, therefore legalizing or illegalizing it comes down to moralizing, which is fairly pointless. Everyone has his/her own morality and applying yours to someone else is not just "wrong" in a moral sense (though in some morality systems it is) but in a real sense of being completely incorrect and never going to work out well.

 

 

 

See above. I'm not speaking of morals at all.

 

It's not really true that everyone has their own morality. There are some issues where people disagree like prostitution. But, on the vast majority of issues there is great agreement across people, cultures, religions, and times. If it seems like people disagree a lot, it's mainly because we only talk about the few things we disagree about rather than the huge majority of things we agree on.

 

People convince each other on moral issues all the time too. People change their minds. So, I don't think you can say in some kind of practical sense that it can't work trying to convince others on moral points.

 

If you read my past posts you will see that I'm not about forcing people. I'm trying to convince people to act morally, according to my idea of morality, because I think it's in their own self-interest. I haven't said anything about changing laws or trying to compel others to agree with me.

 

Morality is a very powerful force in the lives of many people worldwide, something people are willing to live for, die for, and struggle for. Often the people who believe the most in their causes are the ones that win the struggles, too. I think the large majority of people believe that morals are facts like I do, although we agree that we disagree on what the facts are in some cases and can hopefully respect each other when we don't agree.

 

Your take on morality is what I would consider a very intellectual and abstract one. I wonder if you would still feel the same if your life circumstances were different. It's easy to talk about moral relativism in a university setting, it's a lot harder if you're in the middle of a war zone with people fighting and dying around you. Some life circumstances force people to confront moral questions a lot harder. I suspect that for example if you had someone close to you badly harmed by another, you would find it a lot easier to say that the person who did it had done something morally wrong, something definitely wrong, not just something you disagreed with, not just something that was wrong in certain moral codes but not others.

 

Of course I'm speculating on what your situation is so forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

Scott

[somedude81]

In what way is that article biased? Because it says something you men don't want to hear or admit to about yourselves? Because you want to do whatever you want and not have to psychologically deal with the negative aspects of the profession?

This line right here.

 

"Overall, the attitudes and habits of sex buyers reveal them as men who dehumanize and commodify women, view them with anger and contempt, lack empathy for their suffering, and relish their own ability to inflict pain and degradation."

 

A few paragraphs up describes sexbuyers as

 

"And yet buying sex is so pervasive that Farley’s team had a shockingly difficult time locating men who really don’t do it. The use of pornography, phone sex, lap dances, and other services has become so widespread that the researchers were forced to loosen their definition in order to assemble a 100-person control group."

 

Which basically is saying that all men "dehumanize and commodify women, view them with anger and contempt, lack empathy for their suffering, and relish their own ability to inflict pain and degradation."

 

The hate and bias against men is so strong it makes that article a joke. That's why I said it's biased. The author might as well have wrote, "Men are pigs" and nothing else.

 

And I didn't say that affairs with non-prostitutes are not damaging. They also damage and destroy marriages and families, but at least those are not keeping the OW in a lifestyle that puts her life and safety at risk.

You keep saying over and over how men cheat on their wives with prostitutes and I'm saying that most men don't turn to a hooker to cheat, yet it's all you focus on.

[somedude81]

It seems there's more and more about uni students becoming hookers to pay off debts. If I get the newspaper tomorrow there probably be something on it. And if you're a uni student how else are you supposed to pay off large sums of money? In my parents day the government paid for it, know you have to yourself.

 

People don't have the right to use prostitutes. It's a crime in most countries. People don't have the right to traffic human beings. They don't have a right to abuse women and children. And, yes, I advocate legal consequences for those who participate. It's harmful to women, to children, and to families.

What do you think of girls who choose to go into prostitution to pay off debts?

 

They weren't trafficked, they weren't forced, they weren't abused. It's not harmful to women or children.

 

It's nothing more than than a girl who wants to make a lot of money in a short amount of time.

 

Should she not have the right to do so if she wants?

 

-------------

If it wasn't clear, I am completely against human trafficking and pimping. But I also believe that a woman should be able to sell her body for sex if she wants to. The government has no right to say that she can't.

Edited June 9, 2012 by somedude81

[borkus]

If a guy wants sex, where is he supposed to go to? It's crude and offensive for a guy to go up to random women in a street and ask them to go home with him. I'm guessing that your answer is get it from your girlfriend or wife. The problem is not everybody wants to go through the song and dance of flirting with women, taken them out on dates, and managing a relationship.

 

There are also guys who lack the look, intelligence, and personality to have a romantic relationship with someone they're attracted to. These guys have to be celibate because of someone's moral beliefs. What are these guys supposed to do then? Are they supposed to get a makeover and buy lots of book on how to connect with women? Must they go to a therapist to sort out all their issues. While they are learning to improve themselves, these guys must abstain from sex while they are going through their enlightenment period.

 

But what about guys who are disfigured or who lack the intelligence to connect with women? I'm talking about guys who are screwed no matter how much they try to improve themselves? Are they supposed to remain virgins and celibate because they have to respect women's purity?

 

The reason why prostitution has been around forever is that guys have a really strong sex drive. We think about it all the time. I think it's better that a guy goes to a prostitute rather than trying to seduce a girl into bed by falsely promising a relationship. I hear women complain about guys who are pestering them for sex. I think that it is better for these guys to pester women who are open to their attention.

 

I don't look down on hookers because they are providing a service that men demand. So if a guy wants sex now, do you want him to go to a prostitute or do you want him to go a street asking random women for sex.

Edited June 9, 2012 by borkus

[somedude81]

Exactly, for some men, prostitution is the only way they can have sex.

 

The women who choose to sell sex are providing a service.

[aj22one]

People don't have the right to use prostitutes. It's a crime in most countries. People don't have the right to traffic human beings. They don't have a right to abuse women and children. And, yes, I advocate legal consequences for those who participate. It's harmful to women, to children, and to families.

 

And why not? A person owns their own body. If they want to rent it out for sexual services that's nobody's business but their own.

[threebyfate]

Well, I don't agree with you that prostitution should be legalized. Studies have shown that in the countries where prostitution has been legalized, the demand for services went up dramatically, which increased the human trafficking into those countries. Not a good thing for society or for women or for families.

Can you link to these studies?

[KathyM]

Prostitutes are outstanding members of society, and are providing a much needed service for a lot of men.

Most of whom are married or in a committed relationship and cheating on their wives or SO. Outstanding members of society that are enabling and enticing men to cheat on their wives.

[somedude81]

Most of whom are married or in a committed relationship and cheating on their wives or SO. Outstanding members of society that are enabling and enticing men to cheat on their wives.

OK guys, it's time to stop beating the one-trick pony.

[KathyM]

This line right here.

 

"Overall, the attitudes and habits of sex buyers reveal them as men who dehumanize and commodify women, view them with anger and contempt, lack empathy for their suffering, and relish their own ability to inflict pain and degradation."

 

A few paragraphs up describes sexbuyers as

 

"And yet buying sex is so pervasive that Farley’s team had a shockingly difficult time locating men who really don’t do it. The use of pornography, phone sex, lap dances, and other services has become so widespread that the researchers were forced to loosen their definition in order to assemble a 100-person control group."

 

Which basically is saying that all men "dehumanize and commodify women, view them with anger and contempt, lack empathy for their suffering, and relish their own ability to inflict pain and degradation."

 

The hate and bias against men is so strong it makes that article a joke. That's why I said it's biased. The author might as well have wrote, "Men are pigs" and nothing else.

 

 

You keep saying over and over how men cheat on their wives with prostitutes and I'm saying that most men don't turn to a hooker to cheat, yet it's all you focus on.

The author didn't say "all men". All men do not dehumanize and commodify women. There are plenty of men out there that treat women with respect, as human beings, and not like a piece of meat. There are also many men out there that do objectify, commodify, and treat women badly. The author is stating the truth, and if that shines a bad light on a lot of men, then they deserve it. Doesn't mean the article is biased if it states the truth. She's trying to hold men accountable for their bad behavior and encouraging people, both men and women, to hold these men accountable and not look the other way and think that this is a victimless crime, because it isn't a victimless crime. It hurts the women involved in prostitution, and it hurts the women and children of the men who patronize them. I don't have the statistics on what percentage of married men use prostitutes to cheat vs. using non-prostitutes, but I have read several articles that all say that most of the customers of prostitutes are married men or men in a committed relationship. And I've read many testimonies of prostitutes and former prostitutes that also have said that most of their customers are married and do not try to hide that fact. Some even call their wives or kids from the hotel room after seeing the prostitute. The women (prostitutes) are often well aware that these men are married. And they don't care, as long as he pays the bill. So I am focusing on the harm this "profession" does to women and children--both the women and children who are cheated on, and the women and children who are enabled to stay in a destructive lifestyle because of men's selfish desires, and lack of regard for anyone but themselves.

[somedude81]

The author didn't say "all men". All men do not dehumanize and commodify women. There are plenty of men out there that treat women with respect, as human beings, and not like a piece of meat. There are also many men out there that do objectify, commodify, and treat women badly. The author is stating the truth, and if that shines a bad light on a lot of men, then they deserve it. Doesn't mean the article is biased if it states the truth.

Did you miss that part of what includes a sexbuyer and how hard it was to find a non sexbuyer man? Then she jumps to wild conclusions about sexbuyer men.

 

Frankly I'm insulted from what she says about men.

 

She's trying to hold men accountable for their bad behavior and encouraging people, both men and women, to hold these men accountable and not look the other way and think that this is a victimless crime, because it isn't a victimless crime. It hurts the women involved in prostitution, and it hurts the women and children of the men who patronize them. I don't have the statistics on what percentage of married men use prostitutes to cheat vs. using non-prostitutes, but I have read several articles that all say that most of the customers of prostitutes are married men or men in a committed relationship. And I've read many testimonies of prostitutes and former prostitutes that also have said that most of their customers are married and do not try to hide that fact. Some even call their wives or kids from the hotel room after seeing the prostitute. The women (prostitutes) are often well aware that these men are married. And they don't care, as long as he pays the bill. So I am focusing on the harm this "profession" does to women and children--both the women and children who are cheated on, and the women and children who are enabled to stay in a destructive lifestyle because of men's selfish desires, and lack of regard for anyone but themselves.

Find those stats first.

 

I'm willing to bet that way more mean cheat on their SO's with women who are not hookers then men who cheat using hookers.

[KathyM]

What do you think of girls who choose to go into prostitution to pay off debts?

 

They weren't trafficked, they weren't forced, they weren't abused. It's not harmful to women or children.

 

It's nothing more than than a girl who wants to make a lot of money in a short amount of time.

 

Should she not have the right to do so if she wants?

 

-------------

If it wasn't clear, I am completely against human trafficking and pimping. But I also believe that a woman should be able to sell her body for sex if she wants to. The government has no right to say that she can't.

Let's say the prostitute was not forced into prostitution, although many are either forced or coerced. Let's say the woman wasn't abused, although 57% were abused as children and 82% were abused while prostituting themselves. Let's say she just decided to pay off some college expenses. Well, she's still destroying marriages and families, hurting the wives and children of these men who patronize (the majority of her customers). Does that make it right to hurt these wives and children because she has to pay off college expenses? Please. Plenty of people take on college loans--they don't go destroying families to pay off their college expenses. Just about every college student or college graduate I know have or had college loans that they had to pay off. They didn't resort to destructive behavior to pay them off.

[fortyninethousand322]

Let's say the prostitute was not forced into prostitution, although many are either forced or coerced. Let's say the woman wasn't abused, although 57% were abused as children and 82% were abused while prostituting themselves. Let's say she just decided to pay off some college expenses. Well, she's still destroying marriages and families, hurting the wives and children of these men who patronize (the majority of her customers). Does that make it right to hurt these wives and children because she has to pay off college expenses? Please. Plenty of people take on college loans--they don't go destroying families to pay off their college expenses. Just about every college student or college graduate I know have or had college loans that they had to pay off. They didn't resort to destructive behavior to pay them off.

 

Kathy, your fascism is showing.

 

You should learn to let go, take things less seriously. People will find a way to destroy their families if that's really what they want to do. Outlawing prostitution creates more problems than it solves.

[Cracker Jack]

Hey, Kathy. Can you reply to borkus's post, please?

[somedude81]

Let's say the prostitute was not forced into prostitution, although many are either forced or coerced. Let's say the woman wasn't abused, although 57% were abused as children and 82% were abused while prostituting themselves. Let's say she just decided to pay off some college expenses. Well, she's still destroying marriages and families, hurting the wives and children of these men who patronize (the majority of her customers). Does that make it right to hurt these wives and children because she has to pay off college expenses? Please. Plenty of people take on college loans--they don't go destroying families to pay off their college expenses. Just about every college student or college graduate I know have or had college loans that they had to pay off. They didn't resort to destructive behavior to pay them off.

ROFL!

 

Do you really think she became a prostitute with the intention to hurt wives and kids?

 

This is the last time I'm going to say it, the men who cheat on their SO's do so more with women who are not prostitutes.

 

Also cheating with a prostitute actually does less damage to the family then cheating with a woman he met somewhere else. No man is going to leave his wife and family for a hooker. It's just sex and there are no emotions involved.

[fortyninethousand322]

This is the last time I'm going to say it, the men who cheat on their SO's do so more with women who are not prostitutes.

 

She probably wants to make that illegal too. Don't give her any ideas.

[KathyM]

If a guy wants sex, where is he supposed to go to? It's crude and offensive for a guy to go up to random women in a street and ask them to go home with him. I'm guessing that your answer is get it from your girlfriend or wife. The problem is not everybody wants to go through the song and dance of flirting with women, taken them out on dates, and managing a relationship.

 

There are also guys who lack the look, intelligence, and personality to have a romantic relationship with someone they're attracted to. These guys have to be celibate because of someone's moral beliefs. What are these guys supposed to do then? Are they supposed to get a makeover and buy lots of book on how to connect with women? Must they go to a therapist to sort out all their issues. While they are learning to improve themselves, these guys must abstain from sex while they are going through their enlightenment period.

 

But what about guys who are disfigured or who lack the intelligence to connect with women? I'm talking about guys who are screwed no matter how much they try to improve themselves? Are they supposed to remain virgins and celibate because they have to respect women's purity?

 

The reason why prostitution has been around forever is that guys have a really strong sex drive. We think about it all the time. I think it's better that a guy goes to a prostitute rather than trying to seduce a girl into bed by falsely promising a relationship. I hear women complain about guys who are pestering them for sex. I think that it is better for these guys to pester women who are open to their attention.

 

I don't look down on hookers because they are providing a service that men demand. So if a guy wants sex now, do you want him to go to a prostitute or do you want him to go a street asking random women for sex.

If men don't want to bother to put in the time and effort to date women, then they don't deserve to have sex from anybody. Yes, there are

guys who lack looks and personality. There are also women who do as well. You're not going to get any sympathy from me for a guy who is lacking in looks/personality/whatever and choses to go to prostitutes, which is enabling a destructive profession, rather than going to women who struggle with the same issues, but the guy can't bring himself to be attracted to women who have issues just like he does. Heaven forbid he should settle, rather than purchase a prostitute. But the fact is, these men who make up the majority of customers of prostitutes are married or in committed relationships. There are very few men who can't ever find a legitimate woman who make the effort to do so. If it were only that population that were customers, the prostitute would not remain in business. It would not be profitable enough for her. She gets most of her money and most of her customers from married men.

[KathyM]

And why not? A person owns their own body. If they want to rent it out for sexual services that's nobody's business but their own.

 

It's illegal in most countries. It's society's business because of the men who will exploit and abuse women and children for their own selfish purposes. It's the business of the families of the customers whose marriages and families are destroyed because of this profession, and the wives/SOs whose health is put at risk from STDs.

[KathyM]

Can you link to these studies?

I read them yesterday, but I didn't save the articles, so I'd have to look for them again. Maybe I can post something later, but people are free to do the research for themselves if they don't believe me.

[Cracker Jack]

If men don't want to bother to put in the time and effort to date women, then they don't deserve to have sex from anybody. Yes, there are

guys who lack looks and personality. There are also women who do as well. You're not going to get any sympathy from me for a guy who is lacking in looks/personality/whatever and choses to go to prostitutes, which is enabling a destructive profession, rather than going to women who struggle with the same issues, but the guy can't bring himself to be attracted to women who have issues just like he does. Heaven forbid he should settle, rather than purchase a prostitute. But the fact is, these men who make up the majority of customers of prostitutes are married or in committed relationships. There are very few men who can't ever find a legitimate woman who make the effort to do so. If it were only that population that were customers, the prostitute would not remain in business. It would not be profitable enough for her. She gets most of her money and most of her customers from married men.

 

But what if they can't get any dates? And just because a woman's in the same position doesn't mean she'd want to date that sorta guy, anyway. I don't have an opinion on this topic, but while there are tons of married customers, there are tons of single guys who can't a date or any women companionship at all type of customers. Those guys are hardly in the minority when it comes to prostitution.

[threebyfate]

I read them yesterday, but I didn't save the articles, so I'd have to look for them again. Maybe I can post something later, but people are free to do the research for themselves if they don't believe me.

Nah, I'll wait for you to provide evidence of your assertions before believing you.