W is having an affair

[Owl]

I will say I disagree with this. Saying to a cheater that you can have me or you can have him is RETAINING control over your own life. NO one ever has control over someone else; that's a fantasy. The moment you said "I do," you never had control over whether your spouse remained married to you. They always had the option to leave. So they ALWAYS had control. As did you. Just not over someone else.

 

I agree. Setting boundaries about what you'll accept or not accept in your life is taking the control back.

 

And the comment about marriage with someone in control being a sham...I'd agree if it were to STAY that way.

 

But it doesn't/shouldn't.

 

But while one party is in the throes of an affair, they're not making choices for the best of both spouses...they should not 'be in control'.

 

You don't hand a drug addict the keys to the medicine supply room, do you?

 

But...once the work is done towards moving reconciliation along...things should balance out...especially when you have a decent MC along to help manage that.

 

During her affair...my wife had control of our marriage because she had all of the information that I didn't...the knowledge that she was cheating.

 

After d-day...I took control by refusing to agree to things that were deterimental to our marriage.

 

During recovery...control balanced back out.

 

At this point...no one has "all of the control" in our relationship. It's balanced...as it should be.

[Steadfast]

And it sounds like you have experienced a bad situation from exposing. That doesn't make exposing the wrong thing to do; I'm sure there were other factors in your situation that came into play as well.

 

This isn't about me but since you asked, I didn't have a bad experience from exposing. I had a good experience from not exposing. Exposing wouldn't have saved my marriage. The wheels came off her situation without my involvement. Her, her family and friends predicted the reaction from me they knew would come. They're still waiting, four year later.

 

A young, betrayed husband contacted me recently for advice after being told by family and friends to expose her actions. When he wrote the OM's wife, she responded by telling him to mind his own business, then added if he were half a man, he'd have better control over his home-wrecking wife.

 

I write this despite having the position that if anyone has a right to know, it's the affair partner's spouse. I am not blowing smoke; it fails more often that not and leaves the betrayed in a worse spot than before. That's why I hold this position...it's advice that sounds good on the surface but has little to no actual substance. It slows healing and inspires yet more regret.

 

Advising exposure isn't going to stop no matter how many times I post against it. Betrayed spouses will feel justified to react, but whenever justification for actions is applied the results are always mixed. Not surprising...why demand justice when what you really want is love?

[turnera]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. And all the other people I now know who have recovered their marriages from cheating after they exposed. Each person will make his own choice

[Steadfast]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. And all the other people I now know who have recovered their marriages from cheating after they exposed. Each person will make his own choice

 

Let's just assume I'm wrong but ask; how many times have you regretted something you didn't say?

[reboot]

Let's just assume I'm wrong but ask; how many times have you regretted something you didn't say?

 

More than a few times actually.

[Owl]

This isn't about me but since you asked, I didn't have a bad experience from exposing. I had a good experience from not exposing. Exposing wouldn't have saved my marriage. The wheels came off her situation without my involvement. Her, her family and friends predicted the reaction from me they knew would come. They're still waiting, four year later.

 

A young, betrayed husband contacted me recently for advice after being told by family and friends to expose her actions. When he wrote the OM's wife, she responded by telling him to mind his own business, then added if he were half a man, he'd have better control over his home-wrecking wife.

 

I write this despite having the position that if anyone has a right to know, it's the affair partner's spouse. I am not blowing smoke; it fails more often that not and leaves the betrayed in a worse spot than before. That's why I hold this position...it's advice that sounds good on the surface but has little to no actual substance. It slows healing and inspires yet more regret.

 

Advising exposure isn't going to stop no matter how many times I post against it. Betrayed spouses will feel justified to react, but whenever justification for actions is applied the results are always mixed. Not surprising...why demand justice when what you really want is love?

 

So in the example you provided...exposure to OMW didn't provide any results.

 

It can happen...no one argues that.

 

So the worst thing that came out of that was that OMW insulted him?

 

OK.

 

So...he was insulted by someone with her head stuck in the sand.

 

No value...but no major damage done either.

 

BUT...had she instead pulled her head out and started her own effort to investigate and take action to save her marriage...he'd have had an effective ally to assist in his own efforts.

 

Risk-an insult.

Reward-potential ally

 

I see nothing in your example that tell me he shouldn't have taken that risk.

 

I've seen a number of similar situations where people didn't want to get involved, didn't want to confront their own spouse, etc... I agree it can happen.

 

But I've seen enough cases where it helped in the affair and set the stage for reconciliation to indicate (to me at least) that the potential benefit outweighs the potential risk.

[turnera]

Let's just assume I'm wrong but ask; how many times have you regretted something you didn't say?

lol, TONS of times.

[Steadfast]

That's fair.

 

I have never regretted not talking, but I've lost count of the times I'd like to have something back. It's easy to lash out, but some words cannot be taken back. IMO, "I'm sorry" is a one-shot pistol. But more to the point...

 

We tell posters that talk is cheap, then turn around and advise them to start blabbering affair details to every party in the circle. Blow the lid off. Shatter the affair. Make. Them. Pay. It's a dead end. Not an efficent use of time and energy. We justify it by saying "people must know the truth!" But we're devastated when we learn that people don't care. This is helping?

 

My position is they will pay, and learn more in the process by learning the lesson themselves, instead of having it forced upon them. Being betrayed do not give us license to make bad decisions. No matter how we justify it.

 

It may seem so, but I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm simply explaining my position. Healing is faster and more complete when fed by good decisions and good motivation. Sometimes, that's all we have left.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Steadfast

[Gagirl]

I agree with others on here. Don't go after her job. It will only hurt your daughter and keep her from opportunities such as a college education.

[Steadfast]

BUT...had she instead pulled her head out and started her own effort to investigate and take action to save her marriage...he'd have had an effective ally to assist in his own efforts

 

I'm sorry Owl. I must be missing something. An ally? Answer me this; did your wife's-lover's-wife rush in and bring you two back together? Did daddy in law sit down and talk some sense into her? Her friends, or boss? Your butcher? Were any of them able to connect when the vows she made to you and her own flesh and blood couldn't? That's the recon formula?

 

Again, I'm sorry, I know you're pro save-it and that's great, but knowing your situation through what I've read shows you drew a line and your wife grew a brain. She loves you owl. Most of us don't have that. She didn't fall back in love with you because of pressure and exposure. And if she did, the foundation of your marriage is obligation and fear. I don't believe it is.

 

Rounding the troops is a farce. I'm pushing this hard. Nothing personal.

[Radu]

It depends on the situation i guess but you forgot one thing.

 

Perception.

 

By not putting this out there, you are in effect being perceived as a doormat by both the WS and other ppl; you are also letting the WS's version of the events get out there.

Sitting there thinking that 'well, one day karma will happen' does not work with some ppl who are otherwise high functioning and manipulative outside of homes.

Sitting there taking it all won't make your WS respect you, ppl do not respect ppl who just sit there and take it.

 

Rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour is how to train ppl in how they should act with us.

Drawing a line in the sand and providing consequences will cause drama short term, but long term it will cause respect.

Taking charge of the situation should also be a priority.

 

 

I agree with your assesment though, your ideea of keeping quiet is good ... when you decide to move on and all of the above is pointless.

Why cause more drama when the outcome will be the same and you have no kids.

[Steadfast]

It depends on the situation i guess but you forgot one thing.

 

Perception.

 

Let them perceive. I'd rather have the truth come to them in a way they can't deny than me trying to shove it down their throat. I've written this 110-times on here; Jesus Christ himself could come down and fill them in and they'd send him packing. How many times must one hear "That's how you see it" before you stop wasting air? The harder you try...

 

Look, karma or no karma, if its retribution you're after then pull the trigger. Lord knows I've made that mistake, but I didn't with my ex. She wanted her freedom and I let her go. She had an affair and one by one, her family, friends, co-workers and even her kids found out about it.

 

But not from me. I kept my promise. She knows that. My final gift. When I speak, my kids listen. When I speak to her, she does too. Does she respect me? Who cares? Do I respect and love myself? Yes. In a healthy way.

 

This forum exists to provide useful information to those suffering through the pain of infidelity. Right? That's my intention. Sound, long-term advice.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Steadfast

[Radu]

Let them perceive. I'd rather have the truth come to them in a way they can't deny than me trying to shove it down their throat. I've written this 110-times on here; Jesus Christ himself could come down and fill them in and they'd send him packing. How many times must one hear "That's how you see it" before you stop wasting air? The harder you try...

 

It worked for you, in your situation, in your society.

It will not work for others, and i have seen it not work for others.

Exposure does ruin the fog for them, does ruin the attraction. Most of the times these ppl getting into affairs have only the secrecy to keep them going so taking that away from them is damn powerfull.

And in some cases, the parents of the WS are also decent ppl who will go against their child for the betterment of their grandchild.

It's all about what their morals are.

 

But not from me. I kept my promise. She knows that. My final gift. When I speak, my kids listen. When I speak to her, she does too. Does she respect me? Who cares? Do I respect and love myself? Yes. In a healthy way.

 

Good for you, it worked for you, your kids found out.

I have read your thread in the last few hs, your wife was not high-functioning, she did not know how to hide these things.

In fact, she was wrecked with guilt, trust me on this ... the ones that don't feel any guilt when they do this, the true narcissists, they don't alter their lifestyle through their affairs.

You can have 20 happy yrs and then find out through a bragging forum post in the browser's history that you were one of 50.

 

 

This forum exists to provide useful information to those suffering through the pain of infidelity. Right? That's my intention. Sound, long-term advice.

 

It is sound advice, from a point of view.

You argue that not all situations are the same [and you are right], but then you present your view as the absolute, that's what's bothersome about your post and i think irked owl on the first page as well.

 

Let's agree to disagree, we can continue this discussion via PM.

[turnera]

I'm sorry Owl. I must be missing something. An ally? Answer me this; did your wife's-lover's-wife rush in and bring you two back together? Did daddy in law sit down and talk some sense into her? Her friends, or boss? Your butcher? Were any of them able to connect when the vows she made to you and her own flesh and blood couldn't? That's the recon formula?

 

Again, I'm sorry, I know you're pro save-it and that's great, but knowing your situation through what I've read shows you drew a line and your wife grew a brain. She loves you owl. Most of us don't have that. She didn't fall back in love with you because of pressure and exposure. And if she did, the foundation of your marriage is obligation and fear. I don't believe it is.

I know of dozens of cases over the years where the BH calls the OM's wife and they agree on a course of action to stop the affair AND keep track of their spouses AND inform each other if anything odd goes on. They work together to end the affair. Spouses DO fall back in love because of exposure - because it's been proven that the 'affair fog', the PEA chemicals, keep the cheaters from thinking clearly and that the only way to get them to think clearly again is to remove the affair and let the chemicals fade away. What happens next is that the cheater's fog starts to clear away and, more often than not, they become the person they were BEFORE they cheated. And at that point, both spouses can make a plan to move forward in their marriage and FIX what was wrong with it on both sides before the affair started. In other words, the marriage ends up better and stronger than before. All because exposure ended the affair.

[sad puppy]

And in my case, my MM confessed the affair during a conversation with

his wife about talking to the kids about separation, the wife was dragging her heels about moving forward. She then went out and told everybody about his affair. He went into IC, stayed separated, and divorced. Sometime the marriage is really just over. Her "exposing the affair" changed nothing. But she did leave out the sexless for 8 years in the marriage bit. And as that came back to him, gave him the opportunity to clarify to those interested, one of the reasons for the demise of their marriage. Telling others about your personal details can have unintended consequences as those friends she told, now see her as a manipulator of information. You wanna spill the details, have the courage to spill them all.

[Steadfast]

I know of dozens of cases over the years where the BH calls the OM's wife and they agree on a course of action to stop the affair AND keep track of their spouses AND inform each other if anything odd goes on. They work together to end the affair. Spouses DO fall back in love because of exposure - because it's been proven that the 'affair fog', the PEA chemicals, keep the cheaters from thinking clearly and that the only way to get them to think clearly again is to remove the affair and let the chemicals fade away. What happens next is that the cheater's fog starts to clear away and, more often than not, they become the person they were BEFORE they cheated. And at that point, both spouses can make a plan to move forward in their marriage and FIX what was wrong with it on both sides before the affair started. In other words, the marriage ends up better and stronger than before. All because exposure ended the affair.

 

Sounds like you've got the answer there turnera! Wow! Exposure: the infidelity cure.

 

Dozens of cases? OK. There's hundreds and hundreds of posts here on LS, please link ONE where exposure snapped the betrayer out of their chemical-induced fog to recover the marriage. Just one, please!

[Steadfast]

You argue that not all situations are the same [and you are right], but then you present your view as the absolute, that's what's bothersome about your post and i think irked owl on the first page as well.

 

If my position 'irks' owl or anyone else, that's their problem. That isn't my intention. The real issue for those pushing exposure here on LS might be its lack of effectiveness...at least, displayed by the posters and posts seen on this forum. Citing personal experience is a pretty safe card to play. IMO.

 

Please refrain from telling me when and how to post Radu. I have no personal issue with you or anyone here. I posted to advise the OP.

 

That said, I'm more than happy to PM with you, but strictly speaking the advice I'm posting is good and applicable for everyone involved. I'm not pushing an infidelity cure nor am I stating that taking the high road in terms of exposing will save marriages because no action can. In my opinion, relationships and salvaged when two loving people care enough about it to apply themselves fully; for the good of themselves and family.

 

I'm not saying exposure is always a bad thing, but acting in strength, conviction and honor is never a bad thing. It truly does apply to all.

[Owl]

Steadfast...clearly your position is yours...it doesn't "irk" me...but I don't agree with it.

 

Just as you don't agree with mine...but I don't think that you've got an "issue" with me either.

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

Neither of us can (nor wants to, as far as I know) prevent the other from posting...we both post our own viewpoints, and others take or leave their advice as they like.

[Owl]

I'm sorry Owl. I must be missing something. An ally? Answer me this; did your wife's-lover's-wife rush in and bring you two back together? Did daddy in law sit down and talk some sense into her? Her friends, or boss? Your butcher? Were any of them able to connect when the vows she made to you and her own flesh and blood couldn't? That's the recon formula?

 

Sister in law DID sit her down and talk some sense into her. So did one of my sisters. So did a couple of her friends.

 

And yes, they were able to connect with her when/where I couldn't...because they didn't have a vested interest in our marriage. Their viewpoints and comments weren't as "suspect" as mine, since I clearly had an agenda (end the affair, save the marriage). They had no agendas.

 

The "formula" is simple. Make the affair less fun/attractive to the WS...and make the marriage more attractive to the WS. Demonstrate to them WHY they need to end the affair and fix the marriage...and they'll either choose to do so, or not.

 

Is there a "one fix for everything"? Of course not. Let's not be silly.

 

But are there courses of action more likely to lead to reconciliation than others...of course.

 

Again, I'm sorry, I know you're pro save-it and that's great, but knowing your situation through what I've read shows you drew a line and your wife grew a brain. She loves you owl. Most of us don't have that. She didn't fall back in love with you because of pressure and exposure. And if she did, the foundation of your marriage is obligation and fear. I don't believe it is.

 

Rounding the troops is a farce. I'm pushing this hard. Nothing personal.

 

See, here's where your confused.

 

Exposure wasn't about creating fear. Exposure was about suffering consequences, and making the affair less attractive. Affairs appear all bright and fluffy when you can keep them all hidden away in fantasy-land...but they're not as much fun when reality creeps in and suddenly you're forced to deal with real world consequences for what you're doing. And honestly...putting all that pressure on the affair often creates conflict on the affair partners that didn't exist before...all good in the long run.

[turnera]

Sounds like you've got the answer there turnera! Wow! Exposure: the infidelity cure.

 

Dozens of cases? OK. There's hundreds and hundreds of posts here on LS, please link ONE where exposure snapped the betrayer out of their chemical-induced fog to recover the marriage. Just one, please!

Well, from various forums that I visit...and not to give their handles to protect their identity...L, B, 20, L, DD...I could go and look for more, but I AM at work.

[Steadfast]

Sister in law DID sit her down and talk some sense into her. So did one of my sisters. So did a couple of her friends.

 

That's too bad. Because if she was talked into it, she probably could have been talked out of it too. That is, unless her gut was telling her the affair wasn't for her. My contention; fog or no fog, people know what they're doing. They might justify or blame shift, but they know. Otherwise, why hide it?

 

See, here's where your confused.

 

Exposure wasn't about creating fear. Exposure was about suffering consequences, and making the affair less attractive. Affairs appear all bright and fluffy when you can keep them all hidden away in fantasy-land...but they're not as much fun when reality creeps in and suddenly you're forced to deal with real world consequences for what you're doing. And honestly...putting all that pressure on the affair often creates conflict on the affair partners that didn't exist before...all good in the long run.

 

That's justification for manipulation. Everyone experiences consequences for their actions, good or bad. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What I'm reading is any action, any cost. Even at my lowest point, I didn't consider that. True love blossoms from freewill.

 

Do you really believe all affairs are bright and fluffy? Surf over to the OM/OW forum and take a read. This isn't about me being right and someone else being wrong; it's about truth and the human condition.

 

I'm not buying any of it and it isn't because I'm confused. I understand the need for council but ultimately it comes down to choice. I want a relationship based on strength, love and desire. You can't talk that into someone's head; it must be embraced by the heart. I don't want a wife that was 'talked into' staying in the marriage. Not good enough. Sorry.

[turnera]

The real issue for those pushing exposure here on LS might be its lack of effectiveness

Completely incorrect, as has been stated many times. Let's please stop threadjacking someone's thread. If you're so against exposure, go start your own thread on it so you can try to convert people there. OP has heard both sides and can make up their own mind.

[turnera]

fog or no fog, people know what they're doing.

The affair fog is a pretty standard matter of belief in the mental help community:

 

It was how he viewed me. I had been the enemy for so long that although he had chosen to be with me, he was holding these things against me. And they weren’t even true. They were a bunch of lies that they concocted to justify his having an affair. That’s affair fog talking.

It was a huge HUGE huge big deal for him to realize this. He sees now that he was so far removed from reality during his affair that he had come to believe things that were entirely false. He is looking at me with new eyes now.

Still dealing with affair fog « Not Over It

 

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity

 

Fence Sitters

 

Don

 

The Truth About Emotional Infidelity – Marital Infidelity – SIGNS OF INFIDELITY | GoAskSuzie.com

 

What is “Affair Fog”Anyway? :Infidelity Recovery Center

[Owl]

I'm not buying any of it and it isn't because I'm confused. I understand the need for council but ultimately it comes down to choice. I want a relationship based on strength, love and desire. You can't talk that into someone's head; it must be embraced by the heart. I don't want a wife that was 'talked into' staying in the marriage. Not good enough. Sorry.

 

Like I'd mentioned previously...guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I don't agree with your viewpoint. You don't agree with mine. You've not convinced me of yours, and I've not convinced you of mine. Time for both of us to move on and stop wasting pixels.

[Steadfast]

Like I'd mentioned previously...guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I do recognize and efforts and attitudes of the long-time posters here and appreciate that. I don't know everything, but considerable thought and work has been put into this. Opposition to it is understandable. The application is not easy. We post. People, like this man certainly will decide for themselves.

 

OP, sorry for the thread jack.