W is having an affair

[reboot]

All thoughtful and well meaning viewpoints are useful to the people that come here seeking advice. Some will identify with one set of advices, some with another, and yet others with a third (or more). There's little point in arguing amongst each other trying to prove one is right and the other wrong. Often more than one person is right, even though the advice differs. And sometimes no one is right. It's the way of our world.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

[Steadfast]

There's little point in arguing amongst each other trying to prove one is right and the other wrong.

 

Nor (it seems) is it necessary to read an entire post before commenting:

 

This isn't about me being right and someone else being wrong; it's about truth and the human condition.

[turnera]

And yet you continue...

[reboot]

Your truth, not my truth. *shrug*

[Steadfast]

If my posts or points are an annoyance, please don't read them turnera. You've done nothing to support your position but state that others feel the same way. Big deal.

 

I specifically made a point to keep this from being a "I'm right, you're wrong" argument. The lack of depth is disturbing. You're advising people?

 

Your truth, not my truth. *shrug*

 

That's cheater's logic and one of the most unintelligent, easy bake statements one can make. It won't cut it in real life. Truth is not relative.

[hk_1]

I have been through this kind of situation years back, she was my gf but I loved her too much and I drove her away further by trying to get her back.

 

There came a point when I understood that she has gone and that our relationship is over. Since that day never contacted her she tried to contact many times but I never gave her a second chance to make a fool out of me, Mate like all others I will also say that your wife has other plans. You are a good Dad and your daughter deserves you more then anyone else, this time shall soon pass but you have to get over your wife. The biggest reason why I think you will come clean out of all this mess is because you are the one who has been let down. I wish you all the best for your future life.

[reboot]

 

That's cheater's logic and one of the most unintelligent, easy bake statements one can make. It won't cut it in real life. Truth is not relative.

 

I don't see how I can be using cheater's logic since I've never cheated.

 

And simply being extremely opinionated doesn't automatically make you right. Different cultures and different people can have vastly different belief systems. Your beliefs are not everyones beliefs. Truth CAN be relative.

[turnera]

Right Man Syndrome

[Steadfast]

And simply being extremely opinionated doesn't automatically make you right. Different cultures and different people can have vastly different belief systems. Your beliefs are not everyones beliefs. Truth CAN be relative.

 

Truth is NEVER relative and impossible to make relative. Truth is historical fact, and whether that fact is known, unknown or never known does not make it any less true. From the second any act or statement is made, truth is cemented in place, like the elements. You'd have better luck traveling back in time to alter just one aspect of truth than to actually change it. I can't argue that the perception of truth varies widely. That is part of freewill.

 

Right Man Syndrome

 

I've read your posts turnera, and you seem to have a pretty strong sense of 'Right Man' syndrome yourself. That's good. The world is full of followers and lacking in leaders. People who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Steadfast

[turnera]

Who gets to decide what the 'truth' is?

[Steadfast]

Who gets to decide what the 'truth' is?

 

Well, we all play a part in our individual truths. I could lie and say you were out hiking all day, when the truth is you were in the library. Truth doesn't always have to be about some big theological issue, but that's what most people seem to envision when the subject is broached. Truth is what really happened, what was really said, what someone really wanted or a zillion other things. For most of us, our personal 'truths' are a very private thing.

 

Truth is critical in healing, because sometimes, the cold, hard truth of what we really are seems like hitting rock bottom. The beauty part is we can change that foundation into something worth building on, when the truth of who we are is fed with proper motivation. That's someone who is genuine, someone that does what they say they'll do. Someone who can be counted on in good times and bad or someone who can listen. And yes; someone who not only seeks the truth, but demands it from themselves.

 

This is where I am. I'm cautiously applying it to those seeking advice.

 

Thanks for the genuine response turnera. Feuding with you or anyone else on this forum is a waste of resources. Sorry for my part in feeding it.

[turnera]

I agree, but your argument was your 'truth,' that what you believed was the right way, while those who disagreed were wrong. To me, truth is something that can be scientifically verified. What you described wasn't a truth, but an opinion or a feeling. It's hard to demand, or even expect, others to 'come to your side' for a belief.

 

Now, if you came with cold hard facts, such as a university-led study - that has been vetted by several OTHER university-led studies verifying the results - that to expose an affair results in divorce every time, or drives a cheater to suicide or whatever, then we could talk. But that's not what happened. I know cases where exposure helped. You know cases where exposure wasn't necessary. Therefore, NEITHER side is the only way to go.

 

The best way to give advice is to share what you have experienced, or the posters you have watched to ABC and get XYZ, and then let this poster choose their own path.

[Steadfast]

turnera, the argument was raised after I spoke of truth and the human condition. What is that truth? It's not expecting those to take your side or buy into your problems just because you're married to someone they care about. Exposure has been raised to a position of need on this forum; a necessary step in the protocol of dealing with an affair along with legal council, financial precautions and eating well. It is neither reliable enough nor is it been proven to (me) to warrant this level on the good advice scale.

 

In my personal (and professional) dealings, it's been quite the opposite.

 

I'll agree it isn't right that more don't value another person's marriage more highly. That said, expecting success when 'rounding the troops' involving family in-laws, friends and even employers is -by an overwhelming percentage according to my findings- an unrealistic expectation. The evidence (omitting Owl) on this forum supports this.

 

Much more reliable, if one truly seeks the truth about the strength of their relationship or a waywards true feelings, is to honor (not like...it isn't the same thing) their choices and allow them to reach a conclusive decision on their own. That's the beauty of love, isn't it? The more unconditional, the better? I believe so. Positive results can only come from truthfulness.

 

Please be clear: I never said exposure is to always be avoided. In some cases, it is necessary and advisable. But as percentages go, if your intent is to salvage a marriage, exposure earns a failing grade.

 

Some will disagree, as is their right. I have tried to present my findings on this logically as an alter-viewpoint to this OP and others. They will decide.

[Realist3]

After reading some of these posts I am more than a little shocked.

 

Who in their right mind wants to be with someone else through means of exposing them?

 

"I'm going to shame them into staying with me?"

 

That is ridiculous. SO what if they are exposed and end up staying it doesn't address the root of the problem.

[Realist3]

OP,

 

She is gone; let her go. No matter what you do this will never be right. When you have to apologize for contacting/texting your wife it is over.

[turnera]

After reading some of these posts I am more than a little shocked.

 

Who in their right mind wants to be with someone else through means of exposing them?

 

"I'm going to shame them into staying with me?"

 

That is ridiculous. SO what if they are exposed and end up staying it doesn't address the root of the problem.

You haven't read the myriad research and history of why exposing works. It is not

• punishment
  
• shaming
  
• lording it over someone
  
• control
  
• extortion
  

What it is is a way to get the drug (other man/woman) out of the picture so that the cheating spouse can wean themself off of the drug (PEA chemical that you get in your brain when you're in an affair, where you alter history to justify bad actions, demonize your spouse so you can live with your decisions). People drugged out on affairs will throw away careers, homes, kids, inheritances, families...just to keep getting that 'high' of being in an affair. If you don't believe me, do some research.

 

Once that 'fog' lifts, the former cheater usually (not a guarantee) starts seeing the wreckage laying waste behind them and either (1)runs away from it so as to not face what they did (THEY, not the betrayed spouse who merely exposed what the CHEATER did) or (2) owns up to it, is forgiven (but not forgotten), and charts an even better marriage than before.

 

The crucial (but very hard) step in EVERY affair situation is for the betrayed spouse to be willing to walk away, if the former cheater doesn't find a way to make it up to them.

[Steadfast]

You haven't read the myriad research and history of why exposing works

 

Still waiting for just one web link or a post here on LS (besides Owl) that supports this. If there's a myriad of research, it shouldn't be too hard, right? I'm not talking about articles advising exposure, I'm talking about reports that show it worked. To save marriages. Very different thing. Just one?

 

My angle: most affairs fail anyway.

My contention: exposure does not change hearts.

 

Ultimately, that's the most critical step in saving a marriage plagued with infidelity.

[reboot]

Quite frankly, if the exposure breaks up the two lovers in the affair, even if the marriage isn't saved, that's poetic justice to me. I owe no loyalty to the two people who ruined my life.

[2sunny]

Truth is for each individual. Based on EXPERIENCE and PERSPECTIVE.

 

Two people can have the same situation - but experience totally different emotions or feelings.

 

Take this example - two people watch a sunset. One experiences perfect weather - beautiful view and glorious colors. The person sitting next to themmay experience being cold and notices the clouds blocking the suna bit and claims that they didn't see it as lovely as the person sitting next to them.

 

They are not correct - THAT is THEIR individual TRUTH!

 

Experience and perspective gives us our outcome.

 

Many times - assigned meaning and family of origin come into play for the circumstances.

 

For instance - IF someone is speaking to ME and they raise their voice even SLIGHTLY - my mind processes that as a person who is mad - often. -THEY AREN'T MAD - just making a point - but I am sensitive to a raised voice from living with an abusive man for half my life. I am learning that it doesn't always mean someone is mad - just that I have to learn to PROCESS a RAISED voice and what meaning THAT holds from differing people.

 

That is MY truth = MY experience and PERSPECTIVE.

[jwi71]

Still waiting for just one web link or a post here on LS (besides Owl) that supports this. If there's a myriad of research, it shouldn't be too hard, right? I'm not talking about articles advising exposure, I'm talking about reports that show it worked. To save marriages. Very different thing. Just one?

 

My angle: most affairs fail anyway.

My contention: exposure does not change hearts.

 

Ultimately, that's the most critical step in saving a marriage plagued with infidelity.

 

I disagree.

 

The most critical step in saving a M from infidelity is to stop the infidelity.

 

You can search high and low for "research" on the effects of exposure - you'll not find any. It would be near impossible to isolate, statistically, that exposure was the most significant variable in the preservation of the M. Just thinking about how to isolate that gives me headaches. Too many variables in play and they are interdependent and subjective (from both respondent and analysis viewpoints).

 

What you will find is page after page of advice that exposure tends to be more beneficial than not. Each therapist will have his/her own rationale for both pro and con views.

 

I believe it (exposure) to be the single most effective method for ending infidelity.

 

How do you propose to end an A?

[Steadfast]

Take this example - two people watch a sunset. One experiences perfect weather - beautiful view and glorious colors. The person sitting next to themmay experience being cold and notices the clouds blocking the suna bit and claims that they didn't see it as lovely as the person sitting next to them.

 

They are not correct - THAT is THEIR individual TRUTH!

 

Disagree. The truth is both watched a sunset. The rest is opinion. See? The strong tendency is to over-complicate things, or twist truth to suit our beliefs and/or opinions. When the moment passes. truth is sealed forever.

Truth is fact 2sunny. And while many choose to personally interpret it, that does not change it. Just because we don't know, can't know, will never know or don't understand does not make it any less true. Subtract bias!

[Steadfast]

The most critical step in saving a M from infidelity is to stop the infidelity.

 

You can't stop anyone from doing anything. Besides, once the cheating has taken place, the elephant is in the room. Will exposure stop continued infidelity? Maybe. But just as often the cheater just gets better at it.

 

You can search high and low for "research" on the effects of exposure - you'll not find any.

 

There's good reason. The ancient Jews would stone to death women caught in infidelity, yet, infidelity continued. As do other 'crimes of the heart' like murder and abuse. Like any virus or wound, true healing must come from the inside; from the inside out. Not the other way.

 

I believe it (exposure) to be the single most effective method for ending infidelity.

 

How do you propose to end an A?

 

In most cases, by the time an affair occurs what the betrayed wants means little. Only the people in it can end it. You can't. I can't.

 

The most effective method against infidelity is to never be unfaithful. Once it happens, only the unfaithful can introduce the needed changes to restore a relationship. Misplaced devotion? A lack of effort on the betrayed spouse's part? No. People are faithful because they want to be faithful. Not because they are forced, pleaded with, embarrassed, exposed or shunned.

[jwi71]

You can't stop anyone from doing anything. Besides, once the cheating has taken place, the elephant is in the room. Will exposure stop continued infidelity? Maybe. But just as often the cheater just gets better at it.

 

Incorrect. I can prevent an action by making the consequence so distasteful that the offender no longer continues.

 

And of course it's about control. What's wrong with that? Control, in this sense, is simply preventing an unwanted action. It's the same philosophy of all crime and punishment. And drug rehab. And child discipline. Why wouldn't a BS wish to exhibit control to end a WS' A?

 

There's good reason. The ancient Jews would stone to death women caught in infidelity, yet, infidelity continued. As do other 'crimes of the heart' like murder and abuse. Like any virus or wound, true healing must come from the inside; from the inside out. Not the other way.

 

True healing? What is true healing? The M? The BS? The WS? What is "fake healing"? What is this?

 

Are you saying that healing is synonymous with ending an A?

 

In most cases, by the time an affair occurs what the betrayed wants means little. Only the people in it can end it. You can't. I can't.

 

Incorrect. I CAN end an A. Exposure, by definition, ends an A (removes the secrecy)I can also end an A by filing for D (remove myself from the M ends the triangle).

 

It seems that you suggest a BS is to sit around and hope.

Are you saying its impossible for a BS/outside party to end an A?

 

The most effective method against infidelity is to never be unfaithful. Once it happens, only the unfaithful can introduce the needed changes to restore a relationship. Misplaced devotion? A lack of effort on the betrayed spouse's part? No. People are faithful because they want to be faithful. Not because they are forced, pleaded with, embarrassed, exposed or shunned.

 

Except the question was how to prevent an active A.

 

I'm not disagreeing. Prevention far better option, except it's IMPOSSIBLE to prevent an A. All one can do is create an environment where cheating is less likely. Again, how would you end an A that's currently active?

Edited June 27, 2012 by jwi71

[reboot]

Incorrect. I CAN end an A. Exposure, by definition, ends an A (removes the secrecy)

 

 

 

Nothing else needs to be said on this subject. Because by definition, an affair IS secret. Once exposed it can no longer be an "affair".

[Steadfast]

Incorrect. I can prevent an action by making the consequence so distasteful that the offender no longer continues.

 

Given proper motivation, planning and/or force, I suppose you can.

 

And of course it's about control. What's wrong with that?

 

Everything?

 

I'll ask now what a person involved in a crumbling marriage might be trying to accomplish. What makes a good relationship? In part it's trust, mutual respect, mutual attraction and mutual goals, The pattern -as I see it- is mutual. That's two people, each having freewill, uniting to walk the same path together. Not one dragging the other by a rope.

 

Control, in this sense, is simply preventing an unwanted action.

 

Unwanted by whom? I get it and honestly? When my ex cheated if I would have had the leverage to stop her I probably would have used it. Looking back, I'm glad I didn't because I'd rather be involved with someone who chooses not to cheat. And yes; that might be someone who has cheated in the past. My question must be; what are we trying to accomplish by exposing? Or better yet, what will we have if we're successful and exposure ends the affair? Have we treated the symptom, or the cause?

 

And I say this knowing full well that a marriage relationship cannot be repaired while another person is involved. But how sincere is the effort if control or exposure is used to move it along? Using your logic, do we blow it up, then gather the pieces up to see if there's something worth saving? Or do we hope that the threat of shame, lost income, severed family relations or whatever sends the terrified betrayer back into our open arms?

 

I conclude that exposure is a paper tiger, if unconditional love is desired.

True healing? What is true healing? The M? The BS? The WS? What is "fake healing"? What is this? Are you saying that healing is synonymous with ending an A?

 

For me, true healing mixes self respect with the gift of loving from others. I've never seen the term 'fake healing' but a possible description might be attempting to fix any issue by attempting to control the actions of someone else.

 

It seems that you suggest a BS is to sit around and hope.

 

I suggest that a BS let go and live.

 

Are you saying its impossible for a BS/outside party to end an A?

 

No. I'm saying you're pouring water on a fire that's already out.

 

Except the question was how to prevent an active A.

 

I do acknowledge that my last response to this topic was rather weak. I apologize, but my attempt was to approach it from a slightly different angle...to keep it from being a "I'm right your wrong' tat for tat.

 

Again, how would you end an A that's currently active?

 

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't. But that doesn't mean I'd turn down a punch at the OM if given a clean shot.

 

Not long ago, my ex asked; "Why didn't you fight for me?" Overwhelmed to hear that, I didn't answer. Later, the thought came to me that her real question might have been "Why didn't you fight to let me keep controlling you?" IMO, love can't be taken hostage, or received through blackmail. It isn't bargained for, or given from mercy. Again, this is my opinion.

 

Nothing else needs to be said on this subject. Because by definition, an affair IS secret. Once exposed it can no longer be an "affair".

 

af·fair

 

2. affairs Transactions and other matters of professional or public business: affairs of state.

3. a. An occurrence, event, or matter: The senator's death was a tragic affair. b. A social function.

4. An object or a contrivance: Their first car was a ramshackle affair.

5. A matter of personal concern.

6. affairs Personal business: get one's affairs in order.

7. A matter causing public scandal and controversy: the Dreyfus affair.

8. A romantic and sexual relationship, sometimes one of brief duration, between two people who are not married to each other.

 

Tell me where you see the word secret in this definition. I can however, understand why you'd want nothing more to be said. Maybe that's best.