awful billboard

[denise_xo]

I wonder what it would feel like to have signed up for a war with the kind of naive ideas 18 year olds believe in-- valor, bravery, safety, and then have the experience be absolutely nothing like the commercials, the novels, the ideas you had in your head, but be unable to back out because you'd risk jail time on top of personal and familial shame. I bet I'd feel pretty stuck.

 

I wonder how it would feel if during that experience, which was nothing like what you signed up for, was the exact opposite, actually, you were in a position where you had to either watch people die, or kill someone. ****, you didn't even want to be here. ****, I never wanted to kill anyone. You think I derive pleasure from this? Should I just die? Should I let people who have risked their lives for me die? Should I watch it happen or should I get up and do something? Well ****, now I've done something, and I'm going to relive it in my mind for the rest of my life.

 

I wonder how it would feel to be a sensitive person knows he has done things he nor any reasonable person ever wants to do, and on some level consciously knows he wasn't given much of a choice, but on a more emotional hate himself for it. I bet he level wishes he could go back to before that happened and stay naive for just a little longer. Do some other stupid thing naive 18 year olds do, like study art. Why couldn't I have done that? I'd have turned out broke and pretentious that way, but at least I wouldn't know that I have the capacity to kill a man, and wouldn't have to live with that as a part of my soul for the rest of my life.

 

I wonder if I would sometimes wish I had died instead, so I wouldn't have to view myself in this way. I wonder how wanting to die would make me feel about myself, how much I'd question my sanity, because everyone knows that **** ain't right.

 

I wonder how it would feel to be imprisoned by my conflicted feelings. To wish in my heart I had never done any of it but at the same time have a deep need to justify some part of it when people talk about it from the comfort of their homes, from the comfort behind eyes that have never watched anyone die at their own hands. I wonder how it would feel to have the innocent part of me agree-- everyone knows war is horrible and no one wants to do it-- but have the other part of me needing to feel like I was almost killed and mentally destroyed for a good reason. There has to be a reason this happened to me. i had to have done something good. I can't think about death every day for no reason.

 

I don't know how any of this would feel. I don't even know IF this is something anyone feels. But if anyone does feel this way, I bet it's more horrible than anything I've ever felt.

 

I'm sure a lot of people feel like this. I've met several. I'm sure it's a terrible place to be. That's one of the reasons why I think both veterans and society would be better off if all of these things could be discussed a bit more openly. Obviously, that's a pretty difficult thing to do during a war, but that doesn't make it less important. Away from those talks of bravely and country, wars are ugly, crippling, bloody, and cause extreme human suffering on both sides. Your description is a perfect example of that. But a lot of people aren't willing to talk about that when they call for war, and the 'incidents' that arise along the way gets hushed to protect 'morale'. We (society 'we') don't really want to face up to what we have started, or really ask ourselves whether it was the right thing. The casualties are those who were sent to war without really knowing what they signed up for, as well as lots of innocent civilians.

[denise_xo]

I wonder what it would feel like to have signed up for a war with the kind of naive ideas 18 year olds believe in-- valor, bravery, safety, and then have the experience be absolutely nothing like the commercials, the novels, the ideas you had in your head, but be unable to back out because you'd risk jail time on top of personal and familial shame. I bet I'd feel pretty stuck.

 

I wonder how it would feel if during that experience, which was nothing like what you signed up for, was the exact opposite, actually, you were in a position where you had to either watch people die, or kill someone. ****, you didn't even want to be here. ****, I never wanted to kill anyone. You think I derive pleasure from this? Should I just die? Should I let people who have risked their lives for me die? Should I watch it happen or should I get up and do something? Well ****, now I've done something, and I'm going to relive it in my mind for the rest of my life.

 

I wonder how it would feel to be a sensitive person knows he has done things he nor any reasonable person ever wants to do, and on some level consciously knows he wasn't given much of a choice, but on a more emotional hate himself for it. I bet he level wishes he could go back to before that happened and stay naive for just a little longer. Do some other stupid thing naive 18 year olds do, like study art. Why couldn't I have done that? I'd have turned out broke and pretentious that way, but at least I wouldn't know that I have the capacity to kill a man, and wouldn't have to live with that as a part of my soul for the rest of my life.

 

I wonder if I would sometimes wish I had died instead, so I wouldn't have to view myself in this way. I wonder how wanting to die would make me feel about myself, how much I'd question my sanity, because everyone knows that **** ain't right.

 

I wonder how it would feel to be imprisoned by my conflicted feelings. To wish in my heart I had never done any of it but at the same time have a deep need to justify some part of it when people talk about it from the comfort of their homes, from the comfort behind eyes that have never watched anyone die at their own hands. I wonder how it would feel to have the innocent part of me agree-- everyone knows war is horrible and no one wants to do it-- but have the other part of me needing to feel like I was almost killed and mentally destroyed for a good reason. There has to be a reason this happened to me. i had to have done something good. I can't think about death every day for no reason.

 

I don't know how any of this would feel. I don't even know IF this is something anyone feels. But if anyone does feel this way, I bet it's more horrible than anything I've ever felt.

 

I just re-read this, and was thinking how this is one of the most meaningful posts I've seen on here in a while.

[SarahRose]

inquistions? crusades?

 

convincing uneducated but otherwise good people to do terrible things for the profit of those in power has been a cornerstone of religion since...well...forever.

 

and that is what it is all about.

 

dehumanise and objectify the enemy makes it a whole lot easier to allow bad things done to them than if you knew Elmer Fudd was a good family man with a wife and 7 children to feed and he reads his children stories at bedtime.

[ConnieLu]

and that is what it is all about.

 

dehumanise and objectify the enemy makes it a whole lot easier to allow bad things done to them than if you knew Elmer Fudd was a good family man with a wife and 7 children to feed and he reads his children stories at bedtime.

 

That's exactly the point. Every soldier knows this deep in his heart. That's why they have trouble dealing with it. If they knew they were out slaying monsters we wouldn't have so many depressed soldiers. They'd be happy about it and skipping to work, not offing themselves when they get home and find that they can never leave the war and home no longer exists.

 

I wonder how comfortable we'd feel telling rape victims, or other PTSD sufferers, to shut up and put their feelings on hold while the thinkythinkers talk politics?

[BetheButterfly]

I don't like feeling attacked because I am a veteran. Yes. I've killed people. How many? I honestly don't know. I didn't keep count. I have never derived any pleasure from killing - but they did give me a medal for it

.

 

I asked my Papaw if he killed a child before, same as I asked you. My Papaw did not consider it an attack, but rather a question, based on the job he had. If you consider it attack, then that shows there are some serious issues soldiers face in their jobs, hmmm?

 

It is interesting to me that you didn't keep count. That makes me wonder if you were a sniper, or a bomber, or what exactly you did. You don't have to tell me. I don't want to know. However, I would think you need professional help for this, because killing other people for a living is, I'm sure, a very difficult job. That is one reason why I promised myself I would never ever marry a soldier.

 

I bet you had no problem paying your taxes and paying for every bomb, bullet, and gallon of gasoline necessary to wage war. George W. Bush believed god told him to invade Iraq. You can look that one up.

I have always been against the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Sadly, President Bush didn't listen to me... I don't think he even knows I exist, which I don't blame him for... why should he? However, since I do believe that Jesus commands people to love their enemies instead of kill them, it is my right to protest invasions of other countries.

 

Do you feel persecuted now? Judged? That's sad. Yes, Children were killed in the war. Many children were killed by IEDs set up by extremists. You don't condemn them?

My point in this thread, which I don't know if you got, is that Jesus commands people to love their enemies. Did the 9/11 bombers love their enemies? Nope. They killed men, women, children (and babies) and that was not obeying Jesus at all either, was it?

 

You care so much about children, what have you ever done for any of them? Do you sponsor care packages? No, I imagine not. You sit there and pass judgement on people who answered when their country called them.

First of all, yes I do sponsor children. Secondly, I am expressing my belief that Christians should have responded to 9/11 with love, instead of with the revenge mentality. Do you have a problem with that?

What about the people who have come back, whose lives were destroyed by the war? How many children are now in broken homes because of the ravages of war on our veterans? Do you care about them?

Yes actually I do, and that's an extremely important point you bring up, which shows that Jesus may know what he was talking about when he said to love your enemies. If American soldiers had not gone to kill and be killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, maybe their families would be happy and healthy with their loved ones at home with them... that is possible.

 

I am all for protecting one's country, for defending it against invasion. When 9/11 happened, it was great that the USA strengthened the borders and airport security. It is great that the USA begin to investigate more closely people from other countries studying here. That is important. However, sending Americans to kill and die to other countries is offensive in more ways than one (not just the opposite of defense, like sports) , to people in other countries. Having a strong military system is wonderful, but they should be here, in the USA, not "protecting" our country by invading others. We're not the Roman Empire... at least, I hope we're not.

 

Anyways, I am sorry if I offended you. I do respect Veterans, and I do very much understand that they are simply obeying orders. It is the orders to invade other countries that I have the problem with, not Veterans.

 

Since I now realize that you are suffering a lot of hurt from your experiences, I will pray for you. God does forgive, and just as Kim Phuc forgave the pilot who burned her, so it is possible that the loved ones of the people you have killed can forgive you. Even if they do not, God forgives. King David, by the way, was a warrior. He killed many people, mainly other warriors though, as far as I know. In olden days, warriors fought more with hand-to-hand combat, and King David was a master at that. Samson was another warrior who God used to rescue his people. So, if you would like to take heart in the fact that there were, especially before Jesus' time, warriors God approved of who killed people, they did so in order to protect their people from being killed.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

The man is dealing with PTSD, and personally, I'm just glad that he made it back home alive, and was just talking about getting treatment for said PTSD. Do you think this is helping him? Or do you think that God and jesus helped him to get home, and then put the idea into his head to check out a hospital, and potentially help himself to feel better (as better as you can feel after what he's been through). Or maybe he's supposed to hate himself after you berate him, and get no help at all? What do you think God and Jesus would think the appropriate way for you to treat another of god's children - who just happened to serve in a war - would be?

 

Ahh, that makes sense. That just confirms my belief concerning the evils of war... it traumatizes brave men and women. I am sorry to hear that.

 

Jesus says to love one's enemies. People disobey what Jesus says all the time. (I am guilty of not obeying all that Jesus says all the time too.)

 

God forgives, if people ask Him. I personally do not at all think that God and Jesus sent this man overseas to go kill people. The US government, as far as I know, is no more God and Jesus than the religious leaders ordering the Crusades a long time ago were.

 

However, I do believe that yes, God helped this man get back home. Maybe him being honest with himself can help him heal? People who are in AA have to be honest with themselves for the healing process to begin.

 

It is possible that soldiers suffering from PTSD need to be honest with themselves about killing, which is a very serious thing... taking the life out of another human being. However, it is not an unforgiveable offense in God's eyes.

 

It is important to note that if the Christians in the USA had stood up to say "Let's love instead of kill/get revenge", that this man might not be suffering from PTSD (if it is a result of war in Afghanistan or Iraq) today. This interaction with this marine has only confirmed to me how important it was for Christians in the USA to stand up to the former President's decision of sending soldiers overseas to kill/die, and find other ways to protect our country. We failed at that.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[denise_xo]

sorry - misposted

[quickjoe]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I should just smile when someone asks me how many people I have killed.

That was after you chucked a massive sook at her for absolutely no reason.

[BetheButterfly]

That was after you chucked a massive sook at her for absolutely no reason.

 

It's ok QuickJoe. Thanks for standing up for me... I understand now though that he is hurting, which is why he lashed out. I also see from Anela's perspective why my question was not considered appropriate. My Papaw is a man who has loved me since I was born and is used to my questions, so asking him is not the same as asking a stranger.

 

I forgive, and I'm ok. Hopefully he will be ok too.

 

About an earlier comment I wrote, even though I personally would not marry a soldier (I married a pacifist), there are women like my cousin (who is beautiful, intelligent, and a wonderful lady) who marry soldiers and have very good relationships with their husbands.

 

I researched your posts a bit, Nohbody, and don't give up on love, ok? My cousin's husband is a marine - a sniper. They have been married for a year and as far as I know, are wonderfully in love and happy. Her views, by the way, are not the same as mine, but we love each other and get along in spite of the fact that we think differently about things.

 

Anyways, back to the subject of this thread. I still think the billboard is awful, and does not show Jesus' teachings to love.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[GorillaTheater]

It's military humor, which kind of lines up with police and EMT humor (hang around an ambulance crew if you want to hear some REALLY black humor).

 

"Join the Navy, travel the world, meet interesting people, and kill them."

 

Does it line up Biblically? Maybe not. But most humor probably doesn't. Get your knickers in a twist about it if you want to, but I'm not sure how productive that is.

[TaraMaiden]

the bickering from different corners here, is precisely, in miniature, what makes Nation fight with Nation.

War, on an extremely basic and simplistic level is a magnification of the "I'm right!" "NO, I'M right!" premise, and if we cannot keep a kind word and a compassionate nature here, among people we have grown to know, and in some cases, hold in affection, then really we are no better than those who on a grander scale, we criticise and condemn.

 

When we decide that our argument is better than someone else's opinion, we are just as guilty of harbouring righteous indignation, and stubbornly refusing to see it all form a different angle.

No matter how right we are, it is important to understand that other people are 'right' too....

[BetheButterfly]

the bickering from different corners here, is precisely, in miniature, what makes Nation fight with Nation.

War, on an extremely basic and simplistic level is a magnification of the "I'm right!" "NO, I'M right!" premise, and if we cannot keep a kind word and a compassionate nature here, among people we have grown to know, and in some cases, hold in affection, then really we are no better than those who on a grander scale, we criticise and condemn.

 

When we decide that our argument is better than someone else's opinion, we are just as guilty of harbouring righteous indignation, and stubbornly refusing to see it all form a different angle.

No matter how right we are, it is important to understand that other people are 'right' too....

 

Good points, and a great lesson to me, thanks Tara Maiden

[BetheButterfly]

It's military humor, which kind of lines up with police and EMT humor (hang around an ambulance crew if you want to hear some REALLY black humor).

 

"Join the Navy, travel the world, meet interesting people, and kill them."

 

Does it line up Biblically? Maybe not. But most humor probably doesn't. Get your knickers in a twist about it if you want to, but I'm not sure how productive that is.

 

 

Well, at least it promotes dialogue. However, TaraMaiden is right. Without compassion and kindness and consideration/understanding for the other side, dialogue can lead to mini nonviolent wars, which I must admit is anti-productive and ironic for pacifists!

[pureinheart]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I should just smile when someone asks me how many people I have killed.

 

I don't care what you think of me, and I don't expect you to have the capacity to empathize with me.

 

Having read briefly this particular thread, partly because of the tone...noone likes war, BUT war is a reality. I can't comment on every single war, it's right or wrongs, who is at fault etc., although would like to speak about WWII. Had Hitler been allowed to carry out his evil plan, where would this world be today?

 

I agree with Eddie that I get to sit on this pc right now because of the bravery of our Armed Forces.

 

Yes we are required to pray for our enemies, although there are times that we must take a physical stand. I can sit and pray all day, but when the circumstance calls for me to make a move, my prayers are ineffective.

 

Jesus was not passive.

 

I believe GWB was led by God concerning the war with Iraq.

 

NB, I can't fully empathise with all you went through, although to the best of my ability do and appreciate your service to this country.

[BetheButterfly]

my prayers are ineffective.

 

Jesus was not passive.

 

I believe GWB was led by God concerning the war with Iraq.

 

.

 

Did Jesus kill anybody or order his apostles (including Peter, James, and John) to kill anyone?

 

Did Jesus strive to free his people from the Roman Empire? Why or why not?

 

Jesus is not passive. He rebuked religious leaders of his time. He did not teach his apostles to kill however. Most of his apostles died for their beliefs in him, not because they were killing anybody. Jesus taught his disciples to endure persecution, not persecute in any way, shape, or form, other people, including the Romans.

[pureinheart]

Did Jesus kill anybody or order his apostles (including Peter, James, and John) to kill anyone?

 

Did Jesus strive to free his people from the Roman Empire? Why or why not?

 

Jesus is not passive. He rebuked religious leaders of his time. He did not teach his apostles to kill however. Most of his apostles died for their beliefs in him, not because they were killing anybody. Jesus taught his disciples to endure persecution, not persecute in any way, shape, or form, other people, including the Romans.

 

 

Bible.com

 

I would say your view is founded if you exclude the Old Testament entirely.

 

I believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all working together not contradicting the other, although having different ministries and purposes.

[writergal]

Well, at least it promotes dialogue. However, TaraMaiden is right. Without compassion and kindness and consideration/understanding for the other side, dialogue can lead to mini nonviolent wars, which I must admit is anti-productive and ironic for pacifists!

 

You say that like you agree with TaraMaiden but yet you persist in pushing your opinion as fact, and it's not fact, it's just your opinion. You didn't write the Bible so you can't prove that it's factual. You can have the opinion that the Bible is factual because of your faith, but people who disagree with you aren't wrong either. I don't see you respecting anyone else who disagrees with you and that's not very Christian behavior in my opinion.

[BetheButterfly]

You say that like you agree with TaraMaiden but yet you persist in pushing your opinion as fact, and it's not fact, it's just your opinion. You didn't write the Bible so you can't prove that it's factual. You can have the opinion that the Bible is factual because of your faith, but people who disagree with you aren't wrong either. I don't see you respecting anyone else who disagrees with you and that's not very Christian behavior in my opinion.

 

I agree with TaraMaiden that "if we cannot keep a kind word and a compassionate nature here, among people we have grown to know, and in some cases, hold in affection, then really we are no better than those who on a grander scale, we criticise and condemn.

 

When we decide that our argument is better than someone else's opinion, we are just as guilty of harbouring righteous indignation, and stubbornly refusing to see it all form a different angle.

No matter how right we are, it is important to understand that other people are 'right' too...."

 

That does not mean, however, that my opinion is no longer valid. I can agree to disagree concerning different issues, with kindness, consideration, and respect. TaraMaiden knows I do not agree with her in everything. Does that make her wrong? Does that make me wrong? It just means we have different views, and the purpose of this forum is to dialogue. Respecting does not mean no longer believing or explaining what one believes.

[BetheButterfly]

Bible.com

 

I would say your view is founded if you exclude the Old Testament entirely.

 

I believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all working together not contradicting the other, although having different ministries and purposes.

 

Since I am not Jewish, I don't believe that I need to obey the Law that God gave to the children of Israel through Moses.

 

I looked up the article you linked. Thanks. It does explain what you believe.

 

If you are interested, the link below shows what I believe (I didn't write it).

 

Christians For Peace

 

as well as Jesus' teachings in Matthew, including the beautiful beautitudes:

(I boldened some)

 

 

Matthew 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

 

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn,

for they will be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek,

for they will inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they will be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful,

for they will be shown mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart,

for they will see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "

 

Jesus' teachings, as well as his example and the teachings/lives of his apostles, are why I believe what I do concerning war and fighting.

 

I am a Trinitarian as well, though that's a different subject, and I agree with you concerning the Trinity.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

You say that like you agree with TaraMaiden but yet you persist in pushing your opinion as fact, and it's not fact, it's just your opinion. You didn't write the Bible so you can't prove that it's factual. You can have the opinion that the Bible is factual because of your faith, but people who disagree with you aren't wrong either. I don't see you respecting anyone else who disagrees with you and that's not very Christian behavior in my opinion.

 

Also, I am not perfect. I have never claimed to be. You can judge me however you want, with whatever standard you want. But it is not my job to judge you. I can most definitely, however, explain what I believe and why.

[writergal]

I agree with TaraMaiden that "if we cannot keep a kind word and a compassionate nature here, among people we have grown to know, and in some cases, hold in affection, then really we are no better than those who on a grander scale, we criticise and condemn.

 

When we decide that our argument is better than someone else's opinion, we are just as guilty of harbouring righteous indignation, and stubbornly refusing to see it all form a different angle.

No matter how right we are, it is important to understand that other people are 'right' too...."

 

That does not mean, however, that my opinion is no longer valid. I can agree to disagree concerning different issues, with kindness, consideration, and respect. TaraMaiden knows I do not agree with her in everything. Does that make her wrong? Does that make me wrong? It just means we have different views, and the purpose of this forum is to dialogue. Respecting does not mean no longer believing or explaining what one believes.

 

I didn't say you didn't have different views. But there's a clear difference between engaging in a dialogue with someone than there is prosthelytizing which I feel like you do a lot with your posts. That's just an observation, not an accusation. So please don't attack me for my observation.

[BetheButterfly]

I didn't say you didn't have different views. But there's a clear difference between engaging in a dialogue with someone than there is prosthelytizing which I feel like you do a lot with your posts. That's just an observation, not an accusation. So please don't attack me for my observation.

 

How am I attacking? You are free to observe and come up to whatever conclusion you want, and consider me to not have Christian behavior, if that is what you think.

 

My idea of prosthtelyzing is asking someone to believe the same as me. I know people do not believe the same as me. However, that does not mean that I cannot explain what I believe and why. I consider myself an apologist, not a missionary. An apologist's goal is to defend what that person believes and why.

 

If you write about what you believe and why, that is perfectly fine for you to do, and I do not consider it be that you are prostheytlizing, but rather presenting your view. I respect your view, though I don't agree. Disagreeing isn't bad... people disagree on everything to what is better, tea or coffee, to important issues. People are diverse.

[writergal]

How am I attacking? You are free to observe and come up to whatever conclusion you want, and consider me to not have Christian behavior, if that is what you think.

 

My idea of prosthtelyzing is asking someone to believe the same as me. I know people do not believe the same as me. However, that does not mean that I cannot explain what I believe and why. I consider myself an apologist, not a missionary. An apologist's goal is to defend what that person believes and why.

 

If you write about what you believe and why, that is perfectly fine for you to do, and I do not consider it be that you are prostheytlizing, but rather presenting your view. I respect your view, though I don't agree. Disagreeing isn't bad... people disagree on everything to what is better, tea or coffee, to important issues. People are diverse.

 

Disagreement is part of human nature, but that's not what my observation was about. But my intent is not to threadjack this into a debate of any kind (we can do that over in the OTT forum).

[BetheButterfly]

Disagreement is part of human nature, but that's not what my observation was about. But my intent is not to threadjack this into a debate of any kind (we can do that over in the OTT forum).

 

Ok, well, you are obviously free to form whatever opinion of me that you want, including if you think my behavior isn't Christianlike.

 

However, I continue to believe that Jesus did indeed teach to love one's enemies, and that is hard, but it is something that is important to me personally. You and everyone else need not agree however. I understand and acknowledge that not everyone agrees with me, and that is fine.

 

Many Christians do not agree with me as well, and that is their right. However, it does make me sad that more Christians in the USA did not stand up to love our enemies instead of trying to go kill them. I think it would have been better to have loved and tried another way to protect the USA, then meet war on terror with shock and awe and death. Now, again, many Christians disagree with me. That is fine and is their right. I am only trying to express my view concerning it, based on what I believe concerning Jesus' teachings/example.