Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[Furious]

 

I've been working for over a week on an email to her that says basically that I don’t was a relationship with her; I don’t trust her and shouldn’t have to. Initially, I'd assumed that she was as remorseful as my H and wrote a heartfelt message to her, encouraging our families to come together this summer. When I discovered that not only is she not remorseful, she pretends that everything is normal between us and so I thoroughly regretted my good will gesture. I said, " the possibility that you might try to enter either or both of our lives again is too disturbing for me. Also, because of the pointed questions that you asked during our last phone call about what I know and what information I have, I feel I must answer in detail to assure you that the secret is definitely out and there need be no question, denial or pretense in future. Playing pretend is not only insulting to me but sad and shameful for you."

 

I then wrote all the sordid details of their physical relationship in the email. My H says that they did not have sex but went quite far, every detail of which I described this to her in the email, so that, regardless of whether or not she keeps lying, she knows that I know that she's lying. You all might say that he is probably lying because it's hard to stop when you're aroused, but I actually think it's true that they 'played like' she was just giving him massages, they petted and then the touching stopped. I know there will be doubters, but to

me it doesn't matter a flying --- whether they did it or not. The fact of any sexual intimacy merely makes the fact of the relationship's impropriety uncontestable. She can no longer feign innocence and claim it's just a 'friendship.' I also have copies of the 995 phone calls they made in one year, the 385 text messages and examples of some of the hundreds of emails they

exchanged. They do not reveal much, and unfortunately the SMS are go

through my own bumbling.

My problem is that I know she will be shocked and indignant at the use of words like “breasts,” “fondling,” “arousal,” etc. My question is – is there any possibility of legal retribution for writing her this detail.

 

I commented on the absurdity of thinking that, by stopping the physical

interactions, they had made their relationship acceptable and that without actual intercourse, they hadn't crossed the line. Nonsense.

 

I told her that it was clear to me that [she] needed help and, though she probably will not accept anything we have to say, I had decided to try once more:" Then I gave her links and articles to read about emotional affairs.

 

So once more, is it safe for me to have given all these physical details in an email to my SIL? She’s a lawyer.

 

 

 

Does she know you have records of the correspondence between her and your husband?

 

Why are you worried about her being a lawyer, you only told the truth.

[Steen719]

Well, that was a fast and furious (no pun intended, Furious!) couple of days - my first thread and the wonderfully supportive and helpful responses that came through. I have been busy dealing, coping and generally trying to get control of myself, my present and future. I gained a lot of courage and insight from the interactions of that first thread. I even looked at the posts of other people who had just found out about their spouse's indiscretions and recognized the stunned, doubtful slow processing that was happening to them. I think that, even though the responses go different directions, the shock value and difference is good and wakes up the BS's injured ego to fight. I'll try to read more in future and be generous with my help when I'm in out of the woods myself.

 

But for now, I'm back with a new question. First, the update: You all were right. There was more information that eked out over the days but not much. H knows that I monitored his phone bill and read his emails. I discovered some birthday orders from him to her, but they were group gifts done with other family members; I checked out. There's been no more contact, so H is pretty much clean and trying. We actually had a great heart to heart because after discovering the birthday orders, as I completely freaked out at him on the phone. It actually was SO CLEANSING - in spite of the fact that his story more or less checked out. I discovered that I can tell him off much better on the phone and vent my abused sense of dignity. I then showed him 8 website pages which described the feelings of the BS and explained the importance of the No-contact letter. He read thoughtfully for a long time and was sincerely chastened. He did go off into "oh, me, oh my, my shame" for a while, making it about him again, but overall it was a good lesson in learning a little about how he'd hurt me.

 

The other thing that happened was I talked to my brother's care manager about the situation. She is a professional and sworn to protect patient confidentiality. She was appropriately sympathetic and supportive of me. We talked objectively about whether or not to tell my brother. She asked a good question: What can he DO about it (given his complete disability) and limited resources? We decided that it was good that I'd told her. If I move away, as will probably happen, she has the knowledge that I have information that will protect him if his wife ever makes that necessary.

 

Now, here is the current situation and concern. It's my communications with my sister-in-law and hers with me. I know that there were varying suggestions about how to handle her, and most of you said to drop it. Well, I couldn't. I just stewed and fumed that she continued to pretend. I wrote an email that said how I felt about what she'd done - mainly my sense of injury at the secrecy and deception and the fact that I'd had a relationship with her for many years. She wrote back that she will not be coming here this summer (even to see my brother) and needs to take care of herself. She is very careful never alludes to the A in email, always couches the wording in ways that the message could be read by anyone.

 

Well, I have not been so careful and THAT is the reason I'm posting tonight. She has sent me two emails within two days telling me how dear I am to her and that she's sure we'll sit down together again and laugh and cry, etc. Then, she sent me a warm (ugh) note of remembrance on the anniversary of my mother's death. Well, these two messages completely sent me into a tailspin. My H just said don't answer and forget about them. But I was incensed that she could continue to act as if nothing has happened and that I should be happy that she is paying so much attention to me. After what she has just done to me, she doesn't deserve to talk about my mother in any context, least of all to remember her to me. She was my mother's confidante before she died (I lived out of state), and, as an elder lawyer, advised her. I regret this now and do not trust her any more.

 

I've been working for over a week on an email to her that says basically that I don’t was a relationship with her; I don’t trust her and shouldn’t have to. Initially, I'd assumed that she was as remorseful as my H and wrote a heartfelt message to her, encouraging our families to come together this summer. When I discovered that not only is she not remorseful, she pretends that everything is normal between us and so I thoroughly regretted my good will gesture. I said, " the possibility that you might try to enter either or both of our lives again is too disturbing for me. Also, because of the pointed questions that you asked during our last phone call about what I know and what information I have, I feel I must answer in detail to assure you that the secret is definitely out and there need be no question, denial or pretense in future. Playing pretend is not only insulting to me but sad and shameful for you."

 

I then wrote all the sordid details of their physical relationship in the email. My H says that they did not have sex but went quite far, every detail of which I described this to her in the email, so that, regardless of whether or not she keeps lying, she knows that I know that she's lying. You all might say that he is probably lying because it's hard to stop when you're aroused, but I actually think it's true that they 'played like' she was just giving him massages, they petted and then the touching stopped. I know there will be doubters, but to me it doesn't matter a flying --- whether they did it or not. The fact of any sexual intimacy merely makes the fact of the relationship's impropriety uncontestable. She can no longer feign innocence and claim it's just a 'friendship.' I also have copies of the 995 phone calls they made in one year, the 385 text messages and examples of some of the hundreds of emails they exchanged. They do not reveal much, and unfortunately the SMS are gone through my own bumbling.

 

My problem is that I know she will be shocked and indignant at the use of words like “breasts,” “fondling,” “arousal,” etc. My question is – is there any possibility of legal retribution for writing her this detail.

 

I commented on the absurdity of thinking that, by stopping the physical interactions, they had made their relationship acceptable and that without actual intercourse, they hadn't crossed the line. Nonsense.

 

I told her that it was clear to me that [she] needed help and, though she probably will not accept anything we have to say, I had decided to try once more:" Then I gave her links and articles to read about emotional affairs.

 

So once more, is it safe for me to have given all these physical details in an email to my SIL? She’s a lawyer.

 

I am sorry you are here. It is sad for you.

 

Of course, you will make up your own mind about what to believe, but there are a couple of things that I wanted to say.

 

Your H and s-i-l have done this to you and to your brother, a disabled man in a care facility. In my mind, that indicates even more callousness on both of their parts. You seem to be moving towards blaming her more than your H and I can understand the dilemma in your mind there.Most of the time, the other man or woman is not related to us or so involved with our families and of course, part of your indignation is for your brother and rightly so. However, I hope you don't move that indignation all to her as she could not have done this without your H's participation and he betrayed you.

 

The other thing is that, despite your decision to think nothing happened but petting, massaging or whatever they say, that sounds so unrealistic to me. You say it doesn't matter, but what does matter about this is that they are both probably and most likely still lying to you. That tells me that your healing and moving forward is built on a crumbling foundation.

 

My 2 cents. Best to you. It is a long, hard battle. Having been through it twice with my XH, I would never do it again. I would bid them adieu and move forward, but that is my experiences talking.

[merrmeade]

Does she know you have records of the correspondence between her and your husband? Why are you worried about her being a lawyer, you only told the truth.

 

Thank you for that last. That's good and is what I also feel: I only told the truth. And, yes, she knows that I have records from what I wrote her yesterday:

As I mentioned, I have read emails and phone records with [

H

]'s knowledge and permission and made copies. If

ever needs evidence of your infidelity, I will, for his protection, tell him and whomever he indicates. Until then, I have no intention of making his life any more miserable than it already is. However, if my children or yours ever ask me outright, I will not lie. I simply don't. My sense is that they don't want to know more than they already suspect, and I leave it at that.

[merrmeade]

I am sorry you are here. It is sad for you.

 

Of course, you will make up your own mind about what to believe, but there are a couple of things that I wanted to say.

 

Your H and s-i-l have done this to you and to your brother, a disabled man in a care facility. In my mind, that indicates even more callousness on both of their parts. You seem to be moving towards blaming her more than your H and I can understand the dilemma in your mind there. Most of the time, the other man or woman is not related to us or so involved with our families and of course, part of your indignation is for your brother and rightly so. However, I hope you don't move that indignation all to her as she could not have done this without your H's participation and he betrayed you.

 

My 2 cents. Best to you. It is a long, hard battle. Having been through it twice with my XH, I would never do it again. I would bid them adieu and move forward, but that is my experiences talking.

 

I really appreciate the respectful, attentive responses here. Yes, it is sad for me. I do not deserve this. I am a very moral person and my H knows it. It makes it harder, too, because I do not throw it in his face.

 

At the same time, he has pointed out, and I have probably glossed over this fact here, that he did have reasons to question my commitment to him and to our marriage. It is not insignificant that, for the past 3 years, I have been gone more than I've been here. During this time, I relayed some messages to him about a project he'd supervised abroad that had gone completely bad - his fault - and caused a lot of problems for the clients who wanted nothing more to do with him. He experienced a lot of shame about this. Our communications were becoming less frequent. He said he thought I didn't want to be with him any more. Of course, he did not ask me either, but I cannot deny that our marriage was at a low ebb.

 

Is he worth it? I am not sure. I am not staying with him at present merely for his sake or for the sake of our marriage. I am going to stay here long enough to get him out of my brother's house and out of the state. Moving away is a plan we have both figured out and agreed on.

 

At least he has come forward and is trying to talk and learn. It's a breakthrough for him and for us. I also continued monitoring and digging for days and weeks and have found no evidence that he lied about anything he told me. He has also let me rage when I needed to and has not tried to defend his actions.

 

My SIL is another matter. She is actually quite a mess psychologically - clinically depressed and had separated from my B just before he had the stroke that landed him in the nursing home 3-1/2 years ago. Yes, I agree that I have really unleashed some rage onto her that my H also deserves. The reason is that she showed no remorse or even acknowledgement for the affair and kept on lying.

 

She was actually indignant and acted insulted when I made a sarcastic remark, the first expression of my suspicion and disapproval about their relationship. She then denied, obfuscated and challenged every question I asked her, making me feel as if I was on the witness stand and had to defend my right to question their 'friendship.' She has never owned up to it, even after a couple of emails and phone call consisting of a letter I read to her. She said she was sorry but did not say for what. Otherwise, she has not acknowledged a thing. She sent two emails to me, one expressing her affection for me and the other, commemorating the anniversary of my mother's death which left me feeling murderous and obsessed with telling her everything. This is why, yes, I "seem to be moving towards blaming her more than [my H]."

[merrmeade]

I am sorry you are here. It is sad for you.

The other thing is that, despite your decision to think nothing happened but petting, massaging or whatever they say, that sounds so unrealistic to me. You say it doesn't matter, but what does matter about this is that they are both probably and most likely still lying to you. That tells me that your healing and moving forward is built on a crumbling foundation.

 

I wanted to address this separately. I agree with what you are saying, but here is why I think what he has told me may be true.

 

This is the lie that enabled them to live with what they were doing. If they didn't have full-blown intercourse, they could pretend that they just had a deep friendship that, of course, included some hugging and touching. It sounds insane and that is why my H backed down immediately and admitted to the folly and immorality of it.

 

But I really think that my SIL has deceived herself into believing that theirs was a deep and wonderful friendship that I could not understand and would not be comfortable with and, therefore, they had no choice but to hide it from me.

 

I have now read hundreds of articles about emotional affairs and the strange thinking that people do to justify their hidden intimacy with someone outside of the marriage. It is the new infidelity enriched and enabled by the internet and SMS. Text messaging is a way to flirt, throw innuendos, suggest, provoke and excite.

 

It was the concealed emotional relationship that they were having that first alarmed me in their emails and text messages that I read before confronting to make sure what I suspected was real. It is still this aspect of their betrayal that I find the most indicting. Here is what I wrote my SIL:

 

Perhaps you think that stopping the physical interactions made your relationship acceptable. Perhaps you even think that without actual intercourse, you didn't cross the line. Nonsense.

 

I said to you that the physical aspect was secondary, but to be clear: Secondary does not mean irrelevant. The physical aspect actually confirms and cements the impropriety of the entire relationship.

 

To fear exposure and hide the details of a relationship is telling enough. It's common. It's a no-brainer. The universality of the flawed thinking crosses cultures and religions. Married people who feel the need to hide from their spouses their emotional attachment to someone of the opposite sex are cheating. It is not the spouses' problem as you tried to claim.

 

I've gathered quite a list of reputable sites and articles about this that I generously and probably foolishly offered to my SIL. Here they are:

 

1) From Psychology Today:

- "Emotional Infidelity" Emotional Infidelity | Psychology Today

- "Emotional Infidelity: The Silent Unfaithful Factor" Emotional Infidelity: The Silent Unfaithful Factor | Psychology Today

 

2) From the Christian Science Monitor: "When 'Just Friends' is Wrong" When 'just friends' is wrong / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

 

3) From MSNBC: "When a Friendship Becomes an Emotional Affair" When friendship becomes an emotional affair - Today, Weekend Edition - TODAY.com

 

4) From Wikipedia: "Emotional Infidelity" Emotional infidelity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

5) From Oprah.com: "Emotional Affairs 101" What is An Emotional Affair? - Oprah.com

 

6) from DonnaFerber.com: "What Causes Emotional Affairs?" Part Two- What Causes Emotional Affairs?*|*Donna Ferber, LPC, LADC, LLC.

[BetrayedH]

While there is discussion of a "fog" that the WS is in during the affair, there is most certainly a fog that the BS goes thru after the affair. We desperately want to think that we have the final truth so that we can process it, somehow feel like we can get to being ok with it, and work on forgiving it. It's almost never the truth and it's rarely forgivable.

[merrmeade]

So is there anyone here who has made it from affair discovery to recovery? Anyone stick around to keep posting who actually fixed things in an honest, fair way that restored trust and dignity for both parties in the marriage?

 

I mean, the truth is the most important thing at this point. No one here seems to think it possible that I'm getting it (the truth). If my H hasn't been telling me the truth, I have no more resources or tricks to figure it out. I've scoured all the records there are and found out all I can. My gut tells me that I have been told the truth if that is worth anything. If it's not, then how do I know? My head, perhaps, which is why - when I write the facts here - people's reactions indicate I may be missing a lot. So do I doubt him on the basis of principle and precedence? Do I simply decide that his history doesn't offer enough reason to trust?

 

Frankly, I haven't lost very much by sticking this out for a few months since I have not made an irrevocable commitment to dedicate the rest of my life with him and he knows it. I'm committed to staying here long enough to get him out of my brother's house and 5 states away into his sister's house. Then I'm going overseas again, and we'll see how his health fares. I'll come back in no more than 6 months regardless.

 

Here's my other longer-term question: As my H's health fails - and it is already compromised (e.g., the only thing my SIL said to me of any substance in our last phone conversation was to beg me to take care of him and stressed that he is a sick man) - and we age, who is responsible for him? Certainly not his children; I won't allow that - they are my children, too. His siblings? I have a hard time with the idea of dumping him on his sisters. One is already caring for their aging mother. The other is older and has an even older spouse herself. The third sister is younger, very poor and out of work as is her husband. Not an option.

 

In recent years, I have basically already gone my own way. I've had no affairs and done a lot of good in the world; I have no apologies for that. Meanwhile, his #$%@&*!! philandering and pandering brought us this untenable situation - him, living in MY brother's house, embroiled romantically with my own sister-in-law, having irrevocably endeared himself to my brother and his family through every means possible. They adore him. (His M.O. btw)

 

In other words, maybe I do have every right to dump his a-- for good, but I think it would be such a hardship on other people that I am not sure I could live with myself. Am I willing to cut myself off from his family? Endure the sadness and inevitable partial blame from my children? They are already annoyed with both of us for ever creating (what they call) "this weird situation" and that's just what they've seen from the outside.

 

These are real questions if anybody can figure out this strange, complicated scenario.

Edited July 4, 2012 by merrmeade

[BetrayedH]

So is there anyone here who has made it from affair discovery to recovery? Anyone stick around to keep posting who actually fixed things in an honest, fair way that restored trust and dignity for both parties in the marriage?

 

I mean, the truth is the most important thing at this point. No one here seems to think it possible that I'm getting it (the truth). If my H hasn't been telling me the truth, I have no more resources or tricks to figure it out. I've scoured all the records there are and found out all I can. My gut tells me that I have been told the truth if that is worth anything. If it's not, then how do I know? My head, perhaps, which is why - when I write the facts here - people's reactions indicate I may be missing a lot. So do I doubt him on the basis of principle and precedence? Do I simply decide that his history doesn't offer enough reason to trust?

 

Frankly, I haven't lost very much by sticking this out for a few months since I have not made an irrevocable commitment to dedicate the rest of my life with him and he knows it. I'm committed to staying here long enough to get him out of my brother's house and 5 states away into his sister's house. Then I'm going overseas again, and we'll see how his health fares. I'll come back in no more than 6 months regardless.

 

Here's my other longer-term question: As my H's health fails - and it is already compromised (e.g., the only thing my SIL said to me of any substance in our last phone conversation was to beg me to take care of him and stressed that he is a sick man) - and we age, who is responsible for him? Certainly not his children; I won't allow that - they are my children, too. His siblings? I have a hard time with the idea of dumping him on his sisters. One is already caring for their aging mother. The other is older and has an even older spouse herself. The third sister is younger, very poor and out of work as is her husband. Not an option.

 

In recent years, I have basically already gone my own way. I've had no affairs and done a lot of good in the world; I have no apologies for that. Meanwhile, his #$%@&*!! philandering and pandering brought us this untenable situation - him, living in MY brother's house, embroiled romantically with my own sister-in-law, having irrevocably endeared himself to my brother and his family through every means possible. They adore him. (His M.O. btw)

 

In other words, maybe I do have every right to dump his a-- for good, but I think it would be such a hardship on other people that I am not sure I could live with myself. Am I willing to cut myself off from his family? Endure the sadness and inevitable partial blame from my children? They are already annoyed with both of us for ever creating (what they call) "this weird situation" and that's just what they've seen from the outside.

 

These are real questions if anybody can figure out this strange, complicated scenario.

 

For what it is worth, I'm not judging you and I find your efforts to be of the most noble intentions. I just know that I've been there and done that and found that they are usually still liars. That said, there are several people here that have reconciled their marriages over a matter of several years (Owl, Frozensprouts, Spark1111). They also happen to be respectful and wise posters.

 

I can't say that I know how to determine if your H is lying but I would say not to put much faith in it. I did put too much faith in it and lost my fool mind (again) when I found some more truth. It took me 7 months and I get the whole investigative thing entirely.

 

As for "dumping" your H on someone else, it will be his job to pick his own ass up off the ground if you D him over cheating. He created this mess and it's his problem if he doesn't have enough friends and family in life and betrayed the one person that was faithful to him. My $.02 anyway.

 

Lastly, I apologize if my "fog" comments were offensive. You should feel proud of the way you are handling this. Just remember to protect yourself whle you try to be the superhero that saves the family. You're not a superhero and you have to take care of yourself. You don't have to accept an unacceptable situation. Good luck.

[merrmeade]

For what it is worth, I'm not judging you and I find your efforts to be of the most noble intentions.

 

Lastly, I apologize if my "fog" comments were offensive. You should feel proud of the way you are handling this. Just remember to protect yourself whle you try to be the superhero that saves the family. You're not a superhero and you have to take care of yourself. You don't have to accept an unacceptable situation. Good luck.

 

Thanks, Betrayed. Don't know about noble - more like stupid maybe.

 

But I have an idea. I actually didn't realize I was being smart when, on D-day, I told H that I 'knew' something more had been going on from my phone conversation with SIL (the OW). It's kind of true but I made it sound like more. It worked and he 'fessed.

 

I need to give him a 'safe' opening for further disclosure, so I thought of this approach. He knows I've been in touch with her on my own, trying to resolve my issues with her (which btw was a waste of time). I could try the same ruse again - something like:

1. She wanted to know what I knew (true).
   
2. I told her (true) .
   
3. She couldn't believe it (not exactly true; she didn't react).
   
4. And then: "I know there was more." (true)
   
5. "And it's ok. I accept it but won't be able to if you don't also come forward." (not true that I accept)
   
6. Since I really already figured this was the case, it doesn't really change anything." (i.e., give assurance I won't freak out or punish him)
   
7. We've been through the worst, but he needs to tell me the rest so we can get it over with and move forward." (may be, may not be true)
   

Edited July 4, 2012 by merrmeade

[BetrayedH]

Thanks, Betrayed. Don't know about noble - more like stupid maybe.

 

But I have an idea. I actually didn't realize I was being smart when, on D-day, I told H that I 'knew' something more had been going on from my phone conversation with SIL (the OW). It's kind of true but I made it sound like more. It worked and he 'fessed.

 

I need to give him a 'safe' opening for further disclosure, so I thought of this approach. He knows I've been in touch with her on my own, trying to resolve my issues with her (which btw was a waste of time). I could try the same ruse again - something like:

1. She wanted to know what I knew (true).
   
2. I told her (true) .
   
3. She couldn't believe it (not exactly true; she didn't react).
   
4. And then: "I know there was more." (true)
   
5. "And it's ok. I accept it but won't be able to if you don't also come forward." (not true that I accept)
   
6. Since I really already figured this was the case, it doesn't really change anything." (i.e., give assurance I won't freak out or punish him)
   
7. We've been through the worst, but he needs to tell me the rest so we can get it over with and move forward." (may be, may not be true)
   

 

It might work but it also shows all of your cards. I think you will know what you need to know over time. But I also wouldn't feel bad about lying to get at the truth.

 

But you are NOT stupid. That is abundantly clear to me. None of us deserved these **** hands we were dealt by out WSs. We were supposed to be able to trust them. And we did. End of story.

[merrmeade]

It might work but it also shows all of your cards. I think you will know what you need to know over time. But I also wouldn't feel bad about lying to get at the truth.

 

None of us deserved these **** hands we were dealt by out WSs. We were supposed to be able to trust them. And we did. End of story.

 

Yes, that is the point, and I'm not so sure I could bring it off a second time. I do not manipulate people well (at all?) and can even be bullied into believing that something is my fault. This muddies the picture some but doesn't really affect the facts. Whatever happened, happened. All I want to know if he has told me the truth since D-day, and I am not sure I am together enough to let time reveal or not reveal what I should know.

 

If I understood correctly from your posts (I assume it's okay to poke around like that), your D-days weren't that long ago. I'm so glad you continue to hang around here supporting and helping others, though I don't imagine it's ever 'over' for anyone.

 

I think the hardest part is making myself the most important person in all of it. Everywhere I think of turning, every action I contemplate taking, I worry about how it will affect someone else. My aunt, who was a psychiatric social worker, once said to me when I actually did stand up to my husband regarding an important family decision and was worrying about what other people would think, "You are sure that you have made the best, most responsible decision possible. You can't be responsible now for how others will react." It helped me a lot at the time because the decision was for the good of my children. This time, it's just me, my dignity.

Edited July 4, 2012 by merrmeade

[Furious]

Yes, that is the point but not sure I am together enough to let time reveal or not reveal what I should know.

 

I think the hardest part is making myself the most important person in all of it. Everywhere I think of turning, every action I contemplate taking, I worry about how it will affect someone else. My aunt, who was a psychiatric social worker, once said to me when I actually did stand up to my husband regarding an important family decision and was worrying about what other people would think, "You are sure that you have made the best, most responsible decision possible. You can't be responsible now for how others will react."

 

I wish she were here now.

 

 

At this stage you are searching for the truth, until then i suggest you decide not to decide. This relieves the pressure, and allows you the time to sort through your emotions. Meanwhile, prepare and plan ahead as to what you need to do if you decide to divorce or reconcile. Get your ducks in a row.

Speak to a few divorce lawyers and get informed on your legal rights.

Get into Individual Counseling to help you along the way.

 

Yes you must put yourself first, you cannot fix everything for everyone. Your husband made this mess and only he can clean it up. If he fails then it is on him and no one else.

 

Keep strong

[merrmeade]

At this stage you are searching for the truth, until then i suggest you decide not to decide. This relieves the pressure, and allows you the time to sort through your emotions.

 

I want the truth but should decide not to decide - what? Sorry but would like to understand that.

 

Yes, I think I'll get some professional advice and support. Important on all those levels. And just talking to a divorce lawyer isn't a commitment.

[Furious]

I want the truth but should decide not to decide - what? Sorry but would like to understand that.

 

Yes, I think I'll get some professional advice and support. Important on all those levels. And just talking to a divorce lawyer isn't a commitment.

 

 

Sorry, should have been more clearer with what I'm trying to say.

 

You don't have to decide, either separating or committing fully to reconcile, until you are ready and confident in either one of those outcomes.

 

This will relieve the stress and pressure you are feeling.

 

Give yourself the time to decide one way or the other, meanwhile get legal advice and IC support.

[merrmeade]

In other words, you agree that what is important right now if finding out the truth. For me, that is important BECAUSE it tells me whether he's still lying.

[BetrayedH]

Yes, that is the point, and I'm not so sure I could bring it off a second time. I do not manipulate people well (at all?) and can even be bullied into believing that something is my fault. This muddies the picture some but doesn't really affect the facts. Whatever happened, happened. All I want to know if he has told me the truth since D-day, and I am not sure I am together enough to let time reveal or not reveal what I should know.

 

If I understood correctly from your posts (I assume it's okay to poke around like that), your D-days weren't that long ago. I'm so glad you continue to hang around here supporting and helping others, though I don't imagine it's ever 'over' for anyone.

 

I think the hardest part is making myself the most important person in all of it. Everywhere I think of turning, every action I contemplate taking, I worry about how it will affect someone else. My aunt, who was a psychiatric social worker, once said to me when I actually did stand up to my husband regarding an important family decision and was worrying about what other people would think, "You are sure that you have made the best, most responsible decision possible. You can't be responsible now for how others will react." It helped me a lot at the time because the decision was for the good of my children. This time, it's just me, my dignity.

 

You're welcome to poke around my threads.

 

My dday was May 1, '11 so I'm a little over a year in. I made a lot of poor decisions along the way and I am still trying to muddle thru this mess with two younger children. My W eventually filed for D and hasn't spoken to me about anything but finances and the kids since. I do get some solace from my attempts to help others that just haven't yet been there and done that.

 

For what it is worth, I completely agree with Furious that you can decide not to decide until you are good and ready. I committed to reconciliation quickly and was handed a serious dose of trickle-truth for my reward. I wanted to process everything quickly and save my nuclear family. It simply doesn't work.

 

Good luck to you on your journey. I hope that your situation is different and that your H has been honest and that you can heal. But in my experience, thinking you're the exception is the rule. The WS are liars and that doesn't change just because WE want to do the right thing.

[Furious]

In other words, you agree that what is important right now if finding out the truth. For me, that is important BECAUSE it tells me whether he's still lying.

 

Until you are satisfied you have the entire truth, only then can you decide on your future.

 

Give it time, be patient, take good care of yourself.

[Steen719]

I wanted to address this separately. I agree with what you are saying, but here is why I think what he has told me may be true.

 

This is the lie that enabled them to live with what they were doing. If they didn't have full-blown intercourse, they could pretend that they just had a deep friendship that, of course, included some hugging and touching. It sounds insane and that is why my H backed down immediately and admitted to the folly and immorality of it.

 

But I really think that my SIL has deceived herself into believing that theirs was a deep and wonderful friendship that I could not understand and would not be comfortable with and, therefore, they had no choice but to hide it from me.

 

I am not here to convince you, really. I hate to see anyone have to deal with this and honestly, I know that you get to where you get when you get there. You cannot use my feeling about what happened to me to feel the same way. I get that. But, I also know that denial can be unbelievably strong and we can believe things that later have us shaking our heads.

 

I had to fight not to blame myself and I hope you don't do that.

 

Your H and s-i-l had more than an emotional affair. They physically touched each other, massages and petting. They went further than that, although in truth, that is very harmful in itself. It is difficult to see how they stopped at petting when they are adults and they had already crossed so many lines. Whatever they did, they both lied to you and that is the line I had trouble with. My XH looked right at me while I was crying and lied to me....right in my face. How does a person do that? Selfish, self-serving, worried only about themselves, that is how.

 

I wish you the best as you go forward. I also hope there is some way you can get the truth, the entire truth. I don't think you have yet.

 

I hope that your situation is different and that your H has been honest and that you can heal. But in my experience, thinking you're the exception is the rule. The WS are liars and that doesn't change just because WE want to do the right thing.

 

The above from BH says it all....thinking you're the exception is the rule.

[merrmeade]

Your H and s-i-l had more than an emotional affair. They physically touched each other, massages and petting. They went further than that, although in truth, that is very harmful in itself. It is difficult to see how they stopped at petting when they are adults and they had already crossed so many lines. Whatever they did, they both lied to you and that is the line I had trouble with.

 

I hope that your situation is different and that your H has been honest and that you can heal. But in my experience, thinking you're the exception is the rule. The WS are liars and that doesn't change just because WE want to do the right thing.

from BH

 

You guys are tough but, man, I feel all the arms around me, too. Later, I'd like to have a discussion about the phenomenon of group therapy online through forums like this because it's real. Anyway, prescient issues:

 

Yes, Steen, that's one of the many no-brainers that I tend to shelve for inconsistency:

how they stopped at petting when they are adults and they had already crossed so many lines.

I remember when I first started having sex as a young adult. I had a boyfriend but then decided I wasn't ready for it and made a decision - no more sex - when we broke up. Well, with the next boyfriend, it was impossible not to do what I already knew. It was pretty automatic once we started making out and petting. I just kept going and have continued ever since. And that was SOOO many years ago!So I do know this about sex.

 

I am not making a decision. It has to come from my H, so I'm working on how to talk about it...

[merrmeade]

I am not making a decision. It has to come from my H, so I'm working on how to talk about it...

 

What I meant by that was that the truth has to come from him and I'm working on how to get at it. Not the decision. That's mine.

[merrmeade]

So tonight I got it out of him. And the truth does not make you free. It is awful. I told him that the last time I spoke to my SIL (the OW) was a week and a half ago. I told him that she had actually let me know that the little story he'd given me was wrong. I said that I'd known anyway, that it wasn't a surprise because it was impossible to believe that grown adults who had had sex would stop there. I told him that I had hoped he would tell me himself and that's why I'd waited and had given several opportunities (which is true), but since he had still held back I felt like I had no choice but to tell him I knew.

 

Well, he basically admitted it by not denying it and letting me talk. At one point, when I said, "Why didn't you just tell me all the times I've begged you to?" he just said, "I couldn't." I asked if it had gone on for years. He said no, and I said I didn't know what to believe any more and needed for him to talk. He did not say anything, put his head in his hands and looked very, very grim. He did say the same thing he's said each time, that his shame is so great that [he cannot talk] (I have to fill in the blanks - he would not look at me or talk). So I talked. And talked. I said that I could not have gone on wondering, that we would not have made it, especially since I actually knew. I needed for him to own up to it. I asked him if he wanted to be with her because it could probably be worked out. (I was really feeling annoyed that he wouldn't participate.) He said I just stick the knife in and twist it. I said that I was the one who'd been betrayed and paralyzed with shock. I said I needed to hear it from him before my all our children come to visit this weekend. I have to say that there was no emotion in my voice. I was completely devoid of any feeling.

 

He simply could not talk and finally got up, took a shower and went to bed, saying he didn't want to talk any more, he didn't want to eat, he just wanted to go to bed. I left the room and neither of us ate supper.

 

I emailed my SIL just to let her know that he's come clean - I know they had sex - because my last communication would have sounded pretty foolish.

 

I am numb all over again, but I know that it had to be done. Maybe I should have waited for a marriage counselor.

 

Help.

Edited July 5, 2012 by merrmeade

[Furious]

So tonight I got it out of him. And the truth does not make you free. It is awful. I told him that the last time I spoke to my SIL (the OW) was a week and a half ago. I told him that she had actually let me know that the little story he'd given me was wrong. I said that I'd known anyway, that it wasn't a surprise because it was impossible to believe that grown adults who had had sex would stop there. I told him that I had hoped he would tell me himself and that's why I'd waited and had given several opportunities (which is true), but since he had still held back I felt like I had no choice but to tell him I knew.

 

Well, he basically admitted it by not denying it and letting me talk. At one

point, when I said, "Why didn't you just tell me all the times I've begged you to?" he just said, "I couldn't." I asked if it had gone on for years. He said no, and I said I didn't know what to believe any more and needed for him to talk. He did not say anything, put his head in his hands and looked very, very grim.

He did say the same thing he's said each time, that his shame is so great that

[he cannot talk] (I have to fill in the blanks - he would not look at me or

talk). So I talked. And talked. I said that I could not have gone on wondering,

that we would not have made it, especially since I actually knew. I needed for

him to own up to it. I asked him if he wanted to be with her because it could

probably be worked out. (I was really feeling annoyed that he wouldn't

participate.) He said I just stick the knife in and twist it. I said that I was the

one who'd been betrayed and paralyzed with shock. I said I needed to hear it

from him before my all our children come to visit this weekend. I have to say

that there was no emotion in my voice. I was completely devoid of any

feeling.

 

He simply could not talk and finally got up, took a shower and went to bed, saying he didn't want to talk any more, he didn't want to eat, he just wanted to go to bed. I left the room and neither of us ate supper.

 

I emailed my SIL just to let her know that he's come clean - I know they had sex - because my last communication would have sounded pretty foolish.

 

I am numb all over again, but I know that it had to be done. Maybe I should have waited for a marriage counselor.

 

Help.

 

 

 

It's like a hammer to your heart when the truth comes out.

 

He will continue to lie or omit truths.

 

That is trickle truth, they will only admit to the bare minimum as you continue to press for the facts.

 

It's fairly typical of a cheater to deny and deny, and then minimize the full details.

 

Be strong...you are smart as a whip, and you followed your gut that you were still being lied to.

 

I'm so sorry that your suffering this tremendous shock, as much as you want the truth it hurts like hell.

 

Just breathe...take deep breathes....you are in shock...

[BetrayedH]

So tonight I got it out of him. And the truth does not make you free. It is awful. I told him that the last time I spoke to my SIL (the OW) was a week and a half ago. I told him that she had actually let me know that the little story he'd given me was wrong. I said that I'd known anyway, that it wasn't a surprise because it was impossible to believe that grown adults who had had sex would stop there. I told him that I had hoped he would tell me himself and that's why I'd waited and had given several opportunities (which is true), but since he had still held back I felt like I had no choice but to tell him I knew.

 

Well, he basically admitted it by not denying it and letting me talk. At one point, when I said, "Why didn't you just tell me all the times I've begged you to?" he just said, "I couldn't." I asked if it had gone on for years. He said no, and I said I didn't know what to believe any more and needed for him to talk. He did not say anything, put his head in his hands and looked very, very grim. He did say the same thing he's said each time, that his shame is so great that [he cannot talk] (I have to fill in the blanks - he would not look at me or talk). So I talked. And talked. I said that I could not have gone on wondering, that we would not have made it, especially since I actually knew. I needed for him to own up to it. I asked him if he wanted to be with her because it could probably be worked out. (I was really feeling annoyed that he wouldn't participate.) He said I just stick the knife in and twist it. I said that I was the one who'd been betrayed and paralyzed with shock. I said I needed to hear it from him before my all our children come to visit this weekend. I have to say that there was no emotion in my voice. I was completely devoid of any feeling.

 

He simply could not talk and finally got up, took a shower and went to bed, saying he didn't want to talk any more, he didn't want to eat, he just wanted to go to bed. I left the room and neither of us ate supper.

 

I emailed my SIL just to let her know that he's come clean - I know they had sex - because my last communication would have sounded pretty foolish.

 

I am numb all over again, but I know that it had to be done. Maybe I should have waited for a marriage counselor.

 

Help.

 

I'm so sorry, MM. When this happened to me, I burned some particularly offensive furniture in the backyard, threw my wife out the front door and was promptly arrested. I don't recommend that route.

 

From what I have seen, to truly reconcile requires a truly remorseful WS and one that is still lying is not truly remorseful. Some BSs have had the wherewithal to survive trickle-truth and eventually get to a spouse that will open up and be real again. I lacked the foresight to see that this is to be expected, lost patience and ultimately lost any opportunity to reconcile (my W filed for D). I guess I reached my breaking point and so did she.

 

I'm not saying you need to find patience. I guess if I am saying anything, it's to make decisions with your head and not with your emotions.

 

I'm very sorry. The fact that he is not talking means he is still not there yet. When a WS is truly remorseful, many will undertand that the BS needs to know everything. They go so far as to write a full and complete timeline of everything they can remember. The telling of it in all its misery is what builds trust. I don't know how you recommit the rest of your life to someone (again) when they are still actively lying in the face of your pain.

[Steen719]

So tonight I got it out of him. And the truth does not make you free. It is awful.

 

OK, maybe it should say, it feels awful, pisses you off and then sets you free. You can never really be free, either staying with him or leaving, unless you know the truth.

 

 

I don't know how you recommit the rest of your life to someone (again) when they are still actively lying in the face of your pain.

 

This always reminds me of the Rod Stewart song that says "if I listened long enough to you, I'd find a way to believe that its all true. Knowing that you lied straight-faced while I cried, still I looked to find a reason to believe".

 

I think most of us want to believe so much that we are willing to overlook what our gut tells us. All I am trying to say is at this point, if you are being realistic, it will be pretty hard to believe him no matter what he says.

 

At this point, it may feel like you will never feel better, but you will. Best to you and some hugs to you.

[merrmeade]

I really don't think my daughter should come here. She reads me like a book and will know instantly something new has happened. She is only visiting the US and needed desperately to have quality time with her family. This weekend, my nephew - SIL/brother's son - is visiting along with ALL of my children and their families. My H and I are going to be toast after tonight although probably the company will make us perform and not have to face each other. I just don't want to ruin everybody else's time together and hope I can bring it off. They have a lot of expectations for these two days.

 

As far as I am concerned, I just don't know what should happen next. At least, I can say that after all these years I do know my H well enough to know that right now he is thinking that he can't bear it. Each time, he has looked cornered like a wild beast and eventually erupts that he cannot take it any more. It is as if I am inflicting the pain and he can only take so much. No matter what I say, this is where it ends up.

 

It looks like we needs a professional, but I just wouldn't trust the garden variety available in this small town. I don't know how to help him get beyond this shame problem. I don't see any men in his position who have posted here, meaning a WH. I guess I am still doing the right thing but can't be sure any more. I know that every single other person in my family will NOT want to know any of this. None. Zero. They will not want to be sucked into the crashing tornado. And I do not want my children to be my supports.

 

I really and truly do not know what to do - tomorrow, the next day, the next.