Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[turnera]

Do you mean that you have been doing this for 10 years?

I came to help forums 10 years ago for my own issues, and I've been an armchair psychologist ever since, so yeah...

 

And the longer I do it, the more I see the same patterns over and over and over. Human nature is human nature, merr. Barring psychological issues and childhood effects, we all do the same things. We embrace what makes us feel good or gives us a payoff (even if it's harmful) and we avoid what makes us feel bad.

[merrmeade]

Ah, yes, you're at the fun part.

 

Sorry, MM, it's not going to be fun for a while. The triggers get to be old in relatively short fashion. I still have to drive by the myriad of hotels my lovely wife used during her affair and it's such a pleasant reminder every time.

 

I don't have much time to write at the moment (sorry) so I'll just ask that you cut yourself a break as much as you can. You're not a superhero and didn't ask for any of this mess. Try not to do things that will cause you serious regret (I went to jail briefly) but otherwise, don't beat yourself up over outbursts. Yiu have a right to be angry and it has to come out.

 

Oh, and what a d!ck for not even reading the book yet. Idiot. Guess you don't have to worry about him knowing the script. My wife read about 15 books and still didn't "get it."

 

Try to smile and take care of yourself today.

 

Yeah, the triggers. It really pisses me off that this lovely place that was supposed to hold precious memories of my parents and the families of each of their offspring for a lifetime will now have a stronger association with pain, anger, humiliation and shock for me.

 

I actually had a good day and accomplished something significant in this saga. My H said to me as he got out of the car to go into Home Depot that he's really, really sorry for what he did and then, "I'm really a piece of sh--." Well, the it's-all-about-me approach again really bothered me, so while he was inside, I prepared myself and said this when he came back out:

 

First, I gave the little speech pasted on the previous page that I got from another thread I started on filing for divorce. It went something like: so much hurt, don't know if I can even look at him after this but am willing to do MC and talk about what happens. And THEN, T-H-E-N, I said:

I cannot keep a secret. It makes me crazy, and as you know, I don't lie.

So

I need to tell you what I've been thinking and doing. First of all, [our daughter] knows. (He said, "I figured" in a matter-of-fact way, not sarcastic.) But she is an amazing human being and - though I would not try to represent her thoughts and feelings - she seems okay. I will tell her that I have told you that she knows. It is up to you now how you handle this fact with her; I'

m

not feeding you your lines any more.

 

The counseling is necessary for each and both of us to get out of this whole and functioning. It's also necessary we have that support for how to handle the necessity of disclosure to the family. You and [

sIL

] acted like you could just get out of this abomination with a good-bye and promise from me to protect your dirty secret. The fact of your betrayal is a blow, not only to me, but to my brother and the two families. I should not have to carry that burden alone for the rest of my life for you.

 

If we don't make it - divorce - then I will tell our children, my brother's children and my brother, although I will only tell him that you had an affair and spare him the fact of its being his wife. If we try to reconcile - try - then you will tell them - all of them. The counseling will help us decide how to go about that. It should enable us to survive the trauma and make us better.

 

I told him all that in the parking lot of Home Depot then took him back to work. He was shaking and, when I asked, said he understood. By lunch, I was practically giddy, I felt so free and relieved. I told him how much better I felt when I picked him up. He simply said, "I don't." (I think he meant - I feel bad, I really do, for what I did. He was trying to be more verbal. Two words.)

 

But I did good, huh?

Edited July 13, 2012 by merrmeade

[Furious]

Good for you Merrmeade, you layed it out perfectly.

 

You are right that it is too much of a burden for you to protect your husband's and sister-in-law's affair from your family and also your brother's family.

 

The honerable thing would be for your husband to tell your children the truth, and that would prove that he truly owns his mistake and show you he is truly remorseful. If this were to happen I would insist that you be present when he speaks to your children, this would show that all is transparent and you are both united in hope of reconciliation.

[BetrayedH]

Yeah, the triggers. It really pisses me off that this lovely place that was supposed to hold precious memories of my parents and the families of each of their offspring for a lifetime will now have a stronger association with pain, anger, humiliation and shock for me.

 

I actually had a good day and accomplished something significant in this saga. My H said to me as he got out of the car to go into Home Depot that he's really, really sorry for what he did and then, "I'm really a piece of sh--." Well, the it's-all-about-me approach again really bothered me, so while he was inside, I prepared myself and said this when he came back out:

 

First, I gave the little speech pasted on the previous page that I got from another thread I started on filing for divorce. It went something like: so much hurt, don't know if I can even look at him after this but am willing to do MC and talk about what happens. And THEN, T-H-E-N, I said:

I cannot keep a secret. It makes me crazy, and as you know, I don't lie.

So

I need to tell you what I've been thinking and doing. First of all, [our daughter] knows. (He said, "I figured" in a matter-of-fact way, not sarcastic.) But she is an amazing human being and - though I would not try to represent her thoughts and feelings - she seems okay. I will tell her that I have told you that she knows. It is up to you now how you handle this fact with her; I'

m

not feeding you your lines any more.

 

The counseling is necessary for each and both of us to get out of this whole and functioning. It's also necessary we have that support for how to handle the necessity of disclosure to the family. You and [

sIL

] acted like you could just get out of this abomination with a good-bye and promise from me to protect your dirty secret. The fact of your betrayal is a blow, not only to me, but to my brother and the two families. I should not have to carry that burden alone for the rest of my life for you.

 

If we don't make it - divorce - then I will tell our children, my brother's children and my brother, although I will only tell him that you had an affair and spare him the fact of its being his wife. If we try to reconcile - try - then you will tell them - all of them. The counseling will help us decide how to go about that. It should enable us to survive the trauma and make us better.

 

I told him all that in the parking lot of Home Depot then took him back to work. He was shaking and, when I asked, said he understood. By lunch, I was practically giddy, I felt so free and relieved. I told him how much better I felt when I picked him up. He simply said, "I don't." (I think he meant - I feel bad, I really do, for what I did. He was trying to be more verbal. Two words.)

 

But I did good, huh?

 

Yes, you did.

[BetrayedH]

Good for you Merrmeade, you layed it out perfectly.

 

You are right that it is too much of a burden for you to protect your husband's and sister-in-law's affair from your family and also your brother's family.

 

The honerable thing would be for your husband to tell your children the truth, and that would prove that he truly owns his mistake and show you he is truly remorseful. If this were to happen I would insist that you be present when he speaks to your children, this would show that all is transparent and you are both united in hope of reconciliation.

 

It doesn't appear that he's going to do one proactive thing to fix any of this.

[merrmeade]

It doesn't appear that he's going to do one proactive thing to fix any of this.

 

At least, I will know and be able to say without any regret or exception, that I tried and gave every opportunity. I will not say that, oh, I know him and he won't do whatever. No, I will set it up and communicate every step of the way - and be able to say later that that is what I did.

Edited July 13, 2012 by merrmeade

[BetrayedH]

At least, I will know and be able to say without any regret or exception, that I tried and gave every opportunity. I will not say that, oh, I know him and he won't do whatever. No, I will set it up and communicate every step of the way - and be able to say later that that is what I did.

 

I absolutely agree, MM. You need to be able to walk away from this situation with no regrets. Where that line is, is up to you. Some people walk at thr first sign of infidelity and I don't blame them. You've done much more and the door is wide open for him to start to rectify this problem.

 

To be brief, you're doing great. You're a well-intentioned and conscientious woman. You'll be able to keep your head high.

 

ETA: you'll probably have some regrets no matter what you do. Just keep doing your best. Try to make decisions that you'll be proud of.

Edited July 13, 2012 by BetrayedH

[turnera]

I told him all that in the parking lot of Home Depot then took him back to work. He was shaking and, when I asked, said he understood. By lunch, I was practically giddy, I felt so free and relieved. I told him how much better I felt when I picked him up. He simply said, "I don't." (I think he meant - I feel bad, I really do, for what I did. He was trying to be more verbal. Two words.)

 

But I did good, huh?

That was simply AMAZING!

 

fwiw, if he is EVER to change and grow, he HAS to go through this 'pain' period. Don't try to soften if for him. Remember that YOU are the one who has to decide if you will take HIM back and he had better get that hat in his hand, pronto!

 

If you slip and try to make a soft landing for him, he will never hit rock bottom, he will never HAVE to claw his way up, he'll never do the hard work with a therapist to learn how he could do such an abominable thing to his entire family.

 

Being strong and hard on him is helping HIM.

[merrmeade]

I absolutely agree, MM. You need to be able to walk away from this situation with no regrets. Where that line is, is up to you. Some people walk at thr first sign of infidelity and I don't blame them. You've done much more and the door is wide open for him to start to rectify this problem.

 

To be brief, you're doing great. You're a well-intentioned and conscientious woman. You'll be able to keep your head high.

 

ETA: you'll probably have some regrets no matter what you do. Just keep doing your best. Try to make decisions that you'll be proud of.

 

Yep. This hits it for me. Principals. Integrity. Whether he's got it, I'm not sure any more and wondering how much I'll care when it's done. But for myself, there's no other way. I must be able to look back sure that I gave a chance.

 

One of the therapists called me back finally and we're working on a first meeting.

[merrmeade]

Just wanted to make a small comment - an insight about now and then, meaning back then a month ago or whenever D-day was and whenever I started posting here.

 

It's interesting to look at the stages:

1. from trusting but confused to suspicious but hopeful
   
2. from hurt but open to shocked but clear
   
3. from enraged but empowered to ?
   

[BetrayedH]

Just wanted to make a small comment - an insight about now and then, meaning back then a month ago or whenever D-day was and whenever I started posting here.

 

It's interesting to look at the stages:

1. from trusting but confused to suspicious but hopeful
   
2. from hurt but open to shocked but clear
   
3. from enraged but empowered to ?
   

 

They call it a rollercoaster. I'm still on it. I remember hearing 2-5 years for recovery (from Owl) when I first came here and I figured he was nuts. Now I get it. It's pretty much a 2-5 year sentence no matter what you do. Although, it seems as though those that immediately decided it was a dealbreaker and filed for D are morr confident in a speedier recovery. To me, the level of hurt is reflective of the amount of love I had for my wife. Now it has evolved to grief over the permanent loss of a nuclear family, mostly because I have some really great young children (9 and 5 yo) who are still trying to adapt.

 

I hope your recovery is quicker.

[merrmeade]

They call it a rollercoaster. I'm still on it. I remember hearing 2-5 years for recovery (from Owl) when I first came here and I figured he was nuts. Now I get it. It's pretty much a 2-5 year sentence no matter what you do. Although, it seems as though those that immediately decided it was a dealbreaker and filed for D are morr confident in a speedier recovery. To me, the level of hurt is reflective of the amount of love I had for my wife. Now it has evolved to grief over the permanent loss of a nuclear family, mostly because I have some really great young children (9 and 5 yo) who are still trying to adapt.

 

I hope your recovery is quicker.

 

It seems to me there's recovery for the individual and recovery for the couple. Most people here just seem to be talking about recovery for the individual.

 

I realized something tonight about what I'm about to start. For a few days, I've changed from the trusting, naive and finally victimized partner to a suspicious, cynical and constantly vigilant predator. By making that announcement to my H yesterday, I'm not sure everything I accomplished was good. I surprised him with the expectation of disclosure to both families. I was scary. He could feel that he doesn't gain so much since he'll be 'outed' either way it goes. He could also worry about my telling my SIL's sons and warn her. I tried to remind him tonight that we're going to see the therapist in order to make these decisions together about how to proceed.

 

Losing so much sleep, I find myself getting kind of paranoid delusional, jumpy, with wild mood swings. Suddenly, I'm feeling powerless again, scared and worried what will happen because of several things such as:

(1) Even after telling him that our daughter knows, telling her that he knows that she knows, nothing changed. He said nothing to her; she said nothing to him. Life goes on. I keep putting my head in my hands and asking what the hell just happened here? Am I in another universe? How do they both pretend like that?

(2) He might think that he loses either way and consider warning SIL about my no-win (for either of them) condition of disclosure. Of course, this would be the death blow to reconciliation for us. Even worse, if that were the case (that he warns her and we give up trying to reconcile), they might even consider denying everything that he told me about the affair. Then, I'm really alone. You see what I mean? - real paranoia here.

 

If he warns her (SIL, OW) that I am planning to tell their children, then I have no leverage, and of course, the game would be up. It would all be over, but I could be left with this story that they might deny to others.

Edited July 14, 2012 by merrmeade

[turnera]

It seems to me there's recovery for the individual and recovery for the couple. Most people here just seem to be talking about recovery for the individual.

 

I realized something tonight about what I'm about to start. For a few days, I've changed from the trusting, naive and finally victimized partner to a suspicious, cynical and constantly vigilant predator. By making that announcement to my H yesterday, I'm not sure everything I accomplished was good. I surprised him with the expectation of disclosure to both families. I was scary. He could feel that he doesn't gain so much since he'll be 'outed' either way it goes. He could also worry about my telling my SIL's sons and warn her. I tried to remind him tonight that we're going to see the therapist in order to make these decisions together about how to proceed.

 

Losing so much sleep, I find myself getting kind of paranoid delusional, jumpy, with wild mood swings. Suddenly, I'm feeling powerless again, scared and worried what will happen because of several things such as:

(1) Even after telling him that our daughter knows, telling her that he knows that she knows, nothing changed. He said nothing to her; she said nothing to him. Life goes on. I keep putting my head in my hands and asking what the hell just happened here? Am I in another universe? How do they both pretend like that?

(2) He might think that he loses either way and consider warning SIL about my no-win (for either of them) condition of disclosure. Of course, this would be the death blow to reconciliation for us. Even worse, if that were the case (that he warns her and we give up trying to reconcile), they might even consider denying everything that he told me about the affair. Then, I'm really alone. You see what I mean? - real paranoia here.

 

If he warns her (SIL, OW) that I am planning to tell their children, then I have no leverage, and of course, the game would be up. It would all be over, but I could be left with this story that they might deny to others.

Have you looked up Toxic Shame? It seems like he has so much shame he can't function.

[merrmeade]

Have you looked up Toxic Shame? It seems like he has so much shame he can't function.

 

Yes, you mentioned this before. And it is what he kept saying in the beginning. In fact, it was the only thing he would say - always something about his shame. This is where we need a professional. I am in such an insane place of paranoia and suspicion that, exacerbated by sleep deficit, I see harm intended and duplicity in everything and everyone. We need someone who knows that things mean to help us.

[turnera]

If he is suffering from toxic shame, understand that he will have a VERY hard time admitting his faults.

[merrmeade]

If he is suffering from toxic shame, understand that he will have a VERY hard time admitting his faults.

 

I looked up some more sites that deal with it and this is familiar:

 

Toxic shame’s flawed self

 

Bradshaw describes toxic shame as more than an emotion that signals human limits; rather, it creates beliefs that one’s true self is defective and flawed, creating a false sense that one is defective as a human being. If this false premise of defectiveness is believed, then he or she tends to create a false self that is not defective or flawed. Once someone creates a false-self, then he or she ceases to be an authentic human being. Another psychologist author, the late Alice Miller calls this “soul-murder.”

 

Plus this:

 

Chronic toxic shame and the false self

 

People who have toxic shame believe that they are a failure. Self-contempt, isolation and a strong sense that they are untrustworthy are also feelings which accompany those who believe themselves failures. Sadly, when shame becomes a core belief (or a core identity), the individual will most probably shut down from human relationships.

 

Actually I think that this IS the fundamental reason that he found solace in, not only the relationship with my SIL, but also with my nephews. H was staggering from some numbingly shameful failures. SIL's family is vocal and frequent in their ability and needed to

[dreamingoftigers]

I looked up some more sites that deal with it and this is familiar:

 

 

 

Plus this:

 

 

 

Actually I think that this IS the fundamental reason that he found solace in, not only the relationship with my SIL, but also with my nephews. H was staggering from some numbingly shameful failures. SIL's family is vocal and frequent in their ability and needed to

 

Mine too. He couldn't be remorseful for quite awhile or even admit he had an issue. But it was weird, he'd look like someone was stabbing him in the gut if he had to deal with anything emotional from me that wasn't adoration.

 

If I got upset over traffic, he'd be trying to play mood control.

[merrmeade]

Actually I think that this IS the fundamental reason that he found solace in, not only the relationship with my SIL, but also with my nephews. H was staggering from some numbingly shameful failures. SIL's family is vocal and frequent in their ability and needed to

 

I fell asleep and didn't finish that sentence! SIL's family is vocal and frequent in their ability and need to soothe and bolster other people. They coo, intone and constantly offer sympathy, appreciation or whatever the other person needs to feel strong and successful. Don't get me wrong; it has its place - with children.

 

But about the toxic shame - I'd like to know more about this:

If he is suffering from toxic shame, understand that he will have a VERY hard time admitting his faults.

Where can I get more information about this?

 

if he had to deal with anything emotional from me that wasn't adoration.

Yes, that's the hard part apparently. Being without someone who adores him

[BetrayedH]

It seems to me there's recovery for the individual and recovery for the couple. Most people here just seem to be talking about recovery for the individual.

 

I realized something tonight about what I'm about to start. For a few days, I've changed from the trusting, naive and finally victimized partner to a suspicious, cynical and constantly vigilant predator. By making that announcement to my H yesterday, I'm not sure everything I accomplished was good. I surprised him with the expectation of disclosure to both families. I was scary. He could feel that he doesn't gain so much since he'll be 'outed' either way it goes. He could also worry about my telling my SIL's sons and warn her. I tried to remind him tonight that we're going to see the therapist in order to make these decisions together about how to proceed.

 

Losing so much sleep, I find myself getting kind of paranoid delusional, jumpy, with wild mood swings. Suddenly, I'm feeling powerless again, scared and worried what will happen because of several things such as:

(1) Even after telling him that our daughter knows, telling her that he knows that she knows, nothing changed. He said nothing to her; she said nothing to him. Life goes on. I keep putting my head in my hands and asking what the hell just happened here? Am I in another universe? How do they both pretend like that?

(2) He might think that he loses either way and consider warning SIL about my no-win (for either of them) condition of disclosure. Of course, this would be the death blow to reconciliation for us. Even worse, if that were the case (that he warns her and we give up trying to reconcile), they might even consider denying everything that he told me about the affair. Then, I'm really alone. You see what I mean? - real paranoia here.

 

If he warns her (SIL, OW) that I am planning to tell their children, then I have no leverage, and of course, the game would be up. It would all be over, but I could be left with this story that they might deny to others.

 

This may be oversimplifying things but, who cares what people think?

 

Your daughter probably has no idea what to say. Your H is just avoiding any conversation and hoping it will all go away. And they can (and probably will) deny everything they can with everyone they can. They're pretty well versed at that. You have enough proof (emails) but ultimately, who are you going to show them to? Honestly, I've got pretty incriminating crap on my W. No one has seen it, nobody asks, nobody cares. Those that matter will believe you. Those that don't believe you, don't matter. Embrace those that do matter; an objective third party helps.

 

Sorry you're losing sleep. The mind-racing can be a killer on sleep. I eventually went on antidepressants to help. It ends eventually. To what extent you can, try to stop spinning scenarios. It really just gets down to deciding what you want from life now. Not an easy one but this one is flat out yours to decide. The WS takes a lot of decisions away from us but this choice is yours. Screw everybody else. Cut yourself a break.

[Steen719]

This may be oversimplifying things but, who cares what people think?

 

Your daughter probably has no idea what to say. Your H is just avoiding any conversation and hoping it will all go away. And they can (and probably will) deny everything they can with everyone they can. They're pretty well versed at that. You have enough proof (emails) but ultimately, who are you going to show them to? Honestly, I've got pretty incriminating crap on my W. No one has seen it, nobody asks, nobody cares. Those that matter will believe you. Those that don't believe you, don't matter. Embrace those that do matter; an objective third party helps.

 

Sorry you're losing sleep. The mind-racing can be a killer on sleep. I eventually went on antidepressants to help. It ends eventually. To what extent you can, try to stop spinning scenarios. It really just gets down to deciding what you want from life now. Not an easy one but this one is flat out yours to decide. The WS takes a lot of decisions away from us but this choice is yours. Screw everybody else. Cut yourself a break.

 

I think this is good advice. Additionally, I think you might need to realize that he will tell sil anyway (if he hasn't already). They will most likely minimize what they had - what they did - what they felt. This is damage control and I would venture to say that most WS do this.

 

I think BH is correct about the proof. No one really cares. I never had to show anything. People who knew me knew I wasn't making something up. They didn't need to see it. And for the scenarios, it never ends up being like you imagined anyway. An example is your daughter. Things seem the same. You know, he knows, daughter knows and the fall-out is what it will be, not as you imagined it will be.

 

You need to do what you need to do for you first. If this and then that is too hard to maintain. Put more stock in what YOU need. The rest will follow as it does, merri. If this man wants to be with you and you only, he will do what he needs to do and move heaven and earth to do it. If he doesn't or claims he can't, well then..there is your answer.

 

I was like this, so I am not being critical. I was trying to manipulate how things would go. It didn't matter. Not that "it" had a life of its own, but the twists and turns and side roads were sometimes expected and sometimes unexpected and eventually, despite the pain, I just had to make the decisions as I went along.

[turnera]

There are lots of books on toxic shame. Bradshaw's are excellent.

 

Know that if he has it, it's hard to change that inner belief that you are damaged goods. Your whole life becomes putting on an act so people won't find out. Changing that belief, well, that's like convincing yourself that grass isn't green.

[merrmeade]

I think this is good advice. Additionally, I think you might need to realize that he will tell sil anyway (if he hasn't already). They will most likely minimize what they had - what they did - what they felt. This is damage control and I would venture to say that most WS do this.

 

I think BH is correct about the proof. No one really cares. I never had to show anything. People who knew me knew I wasn't making something up. They didn't need to see it. And for the scenarios, it never ends up being like you imagined anyway. An example is your daughter. Things seem the same. You know, he knows, daughter knows and the fall-out is what it will be, not as you imagined it will be.

 

You need to do what you need to do for you first. If this and then that is too hard to maintain. Put more stock in what YOU need. The rest will follow as it does, merri. If this man wants to be with you and you only, he will do what he needs to do and move heaven and earth to do it. If he doesn't or claims he can't, well then..there is your answer.

 

I was like this, so I am not being critical. I was trying to manipulate how things would go. It didn't matter. Not that "it" had a life of its own, but the twists and turns and side roads were sometimes expected and sometimes unexpected and eventually, despite the pain, I just had to make the decisions as I went along.

 

Honestly? I hate it when you guys are right. Just hate it. Again. But bear with me. There ARE positives happening here: #1 - He greeted me yesterday morning awake and intense with this message, "I read the book, some parts twice. I am ready to talk to [daughter] and the boys." So I left to run errands most of the day. They had a good talk apparently but it was for them - not me - and the version still made him look redeemable which is probably what everybody needs.

 

Ok, ok, I know, I know - we should have done it together and will for the other two. I just thought that with my daughter's background knowledge going into the conversation, it wasn't necessary. I accept that they had their own sh-- to work out (another story). Onward to therapy....

Edited July 15, 2012 by merrmeade

[BetrayedH]

Honestly? I hate it when you guys are right. Just hate it. Again. But bear with me. There ARE positives happening here: #1 - He greeted me yesterday morning awake and intense with this message, "I read the book, some parts twice. I am ready to talk to [daughter] and the boys." So I left to run errands most of the day. They had a good talk apparently but it was for them - not me - and the version still made him look redeemable which is probably what everybody needs.

 

Ok, ok, I know, I know - we should have done it together and will for the other two. I just thought that with my daughter's background knowledge going into the conversation, it wasn't necessary. I accept that they had their own sh-- to work out (another story). Onward to therapy....

 

Fwiw...I don't see anything wrong with them having their own talk. If he minimizes, you will know and then you can decide how much detail you want to share to correct his version of the story.

 

Good luck with therapy.

[merrmeade]

Fwiw...I don't see anything wrong with them having their own talk. If he minimizes, you will know and then you can decide how much detail you want to share to correct his version of the story.

 

I realize that H and daughter are working on their own issues. Like you said, no one will fully grasp, much less feel, the impact of the events on me but me.

Edited July 15, 2012 by merrmeade

[Furious]

I realize that H and daughter are working on their own issues. Like you said, no one will fully grasp, much less feel, the impact of the events on me but me.

 

 

No one, not the children, family members, friends, will ever fully grasp the impact and pain one goes through in your situation. That's why it's important to be kind to yourself and put yourself first, and by being focused on what it is you need, what it is you want.

 

I understand that finally...that you can be kind and giving to others but not at the expense of being unkind to oneself.