Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[merrmeade]

Welcome back. Your first clarification, the sentence ended in the middle. Did you want to add something to that?

 

Oh, even though I didn't edit after posting, I did extensively before! That whole paragraph beginning with "First, the clarification:" should have been removed. It got moved down to second place (below) - "Second, clarification regarding the extent of the PA:"

 

As for him, I do think it's possible for him to finally realize the depths of what he's done and get to the other side. If his deception is deep-rooted, though, it'll likely come only with IC. And probably not standard IC but one of those specialized areas where they get to the root of who you are. I'd look into that. And it won't come any time soon; be prepared for years of therapy.

 

Boy, you nailed it, turnera. I just got back from therapy session #2 and was it ever a disaster for me. Don't know what I'm going to do about it. I had him read Chapter 8 of SHirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends" today about 2 hours before the session. I told him he wasn't really stepping up to the plate before because he never volunteers information. I went on for a while. He got very upset, cried and said something he hadn't in a long time - that I was twisting the knife and insisting this be done my way. This was only moments before the therapist opened the door.

 

So we go in and tell her what was going on. She tries to work on what was going on in the marriage. At one point, she asks what we see happening in the future and gives 3 possibilities. I choose one that starts with "rebirth, new marriage." Then his turn. Silence. I make an embarrassed sound. He finally offers, "I am committed to trying to make the marriage work." Then, she starts trying to get us to tell about the marriage when it actually did work. I give a few times in recent history which were basically the last few times we were together before I went abroad, then his turn. Silence. More silence. I turn to him in disbelief and say something. Finally he says, "Spain" which refers to a one-month vacation we had alone together in 2004. She asks if there was any time before that. Silence. That's it. Both she and I say something - she, trying to save the moment; I say something like, "You're kidding. That's it?" He says he was too subsumed by his health and questioning whether he had a future. She asks if he'd pushed people away. Yes, he agrees. Never heard this from him before; maybe a breakthrough - don't know.

 

Then in the car on the way home, I slept catatonic but sat up at one point and said, "What's the use? Why don't we just throw in the towel?" He repeated that he must have been pushing everybody away for all those years.

 

Came inside and crashed without eating. I'm thinking that my life has been wasted, all those years with him and he can't cite as memorable any period other than one month on vacation. I would have left after therapy and disappeared but came home to get my car - oops the car was "in town," 30 minutes away. Went to bed.

Edited August 9, 2012 by merrmeade
verb tense, grammar

[turnera]

I'm so sorry. I guess all I can think to say is if you want to try to save the marriage, you will have to set your sights on years, not months, for recovery.

 

You know my feelings. I firmly believe that people don't change, don't push themselves, when their basic needs are getting met. You're still meeting all his needs and he pretty much has no fear of you leaving. He has no reason to put himself out there and do the uncomfortable stuff. And he won't. He doesn't have to.

 

After spending 30 years in a marriage where I was utterly miserable but still continued to meet my husband's needs, I can't stay silent any more when I see people like you do the same thing.

 

I know psychology. It doesn't work. For you or for him. Your fear of losing him, of him saying 'great, leave, I give up, I'll never see you again' keeps you there, getting NOTHING.

 

I believe that, if you want something, you should want it the RIGHT way. If you were to separate and then ask him to do the hard work, you'll see one of two things. He'll realize he DOES love you and want to be with you, and he'll push himself and get the hard work done, and come out a whole man worthy of you. Or he'll give up and scuttle away and you will be wounded, but free to seek love the way you SHOULD be getting it from someone who won't live a double life.

 

But staying with him will get you neither.

 

JMHO

[BetrayedH]

Sorry this is still so hard for you.

 

One thing that came to mind when I read your post is the amount of re-writing of the marital history that waywards do when in an affair. It seems to be a constant.

 

When I discovered my wife's affair, she said she hadn't been happy for years. She had to reach back to a vacation we took to Hawaii in 2008 to remember the last time she was happy. Her affair started about a little over a year later.

 

I don't know how often you can afford month-long trips to Spain but I know I can't afford week-long trips to Hawaii every year. And it didn't take that to keep me faithful or emotionally connected. They simply and categorically re-write the marital history so much that it helps them mentally justify what they were doing. It seems he is still stuck there in his fog.

 

As for you twisting the knife. He should understand that the knife is in your back, not his. He should be caring for you and instead he is wallowing in self-pity.

 

I feel for you.

[eeyore1981]

Oh, even though I didn't edit after posting, I did extensively before! That whole paragraph beginning with "First, the clarification:" should have been removed. It got moved down to second place (below) - "Second, clarification regarding the extent of the PA:"

 

 

 

Boy, you nailed it, turnera. I just got back from therapy session #2 and was it ever a disaster for me. Don't know what I'm going to do about it. I had him read Chapter 8 of SHirley Glass' book "Not Just Friends" today about 2 hours before the session. I told him he wasn't really stepping up to the plate before because he never volunteers information. I went on for a while. He got very upset, cried and said something he hadn't in a long time - that I was twisting the knife and insisting this be done my way. This was only moments before the therapist opened the door.

 

So we go in and tell her what was going on. She tries to work on what was going on in the marriage. At one point, she asks what we see happening in the future and gives 3 possibilities. I choose one that starts with "rebirth, new marriage." Then his turn. Silence. I make an embarrassed sound. He finally offers, "I am committed to trying to make the marriage work." Then, she starts trying to get us to tell about the marriage when it actually did work. I give a few times in recent history which were basically the last few times we were together before I went abroad, then his turn. Silence. More silence. I turn to him in disbelief and say something. Finally he says, "Spain" which refers to a one-month vacation we had alone together in 2004. She asks if there was any time before that. Silence. That's it. Both she and I say something - she, trying to save the moment; I say something like, "You're kidding. That's it?" He says he was too subsumed by his health and questioning whether he had a future. She asks if he'd pushed people away. Yes, he agrees. Never heard this from him before; maybe a breakthrough - don't know.

 

Then in the car on the way home, I slept catatonic but sat up at one point and said, "What's the use? Why don't we just throw in the towel?" He repeated that he must have been pushing everybody away for all those years.

 

Came inside and crashed without eating. I'm thinking that my life has been wasted, all those years with him and he can't cite as memorable any period other than one month on vacation. I would have left after therapy and disappeared but came home to get my car - oops the car was "in town," 30 minutes away. Went to bed.

 

I can identify with the therapy. We went, and H barely contributed at all. Finally, we go in, therapist looks at me, probably noticing how angry I was, and asked what's going on. I said I'm the one doing all the work, and I quit. If he chooses to contribute to fixing this marriage, now's the time, otherwise we will spend this hour in silence, then I shut my eyes and did my best to go into meditation (total failure, but I did not make a sound). I could hear him shuffling about, the therapist asked him if he wanted to discuss things, then she shut up, too. He wormed around for a few minutes, and then finally started talking.

 

Turnera's right, whether you want to hear it or not. H and I made very little progress until I finally had had enough. I kicked his a$$ out, and then he finally got the picture I wasn't playing his stupid games anymore. I wish I had made him stay gone longer.

[merrmeade]

I'm so sorry. I guess all I can think to say is if you want to try to save the marriage, you will have to set your sights on years, not months, for recovery.

 

You know my feelings. I firmly believe that people don't change, don't push themselves, when their basic needs are getting met. You're still meeting all his needs and he pretty much has no fear of you leaving. He has no reason to put himself out there and do the uncomfortable stuff. And he won't. He doesn't have to.

 

After spending 30 years in a marriage where I was utterly miserable but still continued to meet my husband's needs, I can't stay silent any more when I see people like you do the same thing.

 

I know psychology. It doesn't work. For you or for him. Your fear of losing him, of him saying 'great, leave, I give up, I'll never see you again' keeps you there, getting NOTHING.

 

I believe that, if you want something, you should want it the RIGHT way. If you were to separate and then ask him to do the hard work, you'll see one of two things. He'll realize he DOES love you and want to be with you, and he'll push himself and get the hard work done, and come out a whole man worthy of you. Or he'll give up and scuttle away and you will be wounded, but free to seek love the way you SHOULD be getting it from someone who won't live a double life.

 

But staying with him will get you neither.

 

JMHO

 

Do you mind my asking why you don't leave?

[turnera]

Do you mind my asking why you don't leave?

Well, let me first say that I'm married to a really good man, but a very dysfunctional one. We met at work, and of all the slimy salesmen there, he was the only one who actually cared if the customer got what would help them; the others just screwed over all the customers to get the most money in their own pocket. He's a good man. He loves me like crazy, puts up with all my BS, and still wants to please me all the time. He's never cheated, though he's had hundreds of opportunities, because he only wants me. I've been overweight for 22 years and he's never said a single word, though I know it's a really big deal for him. He's a good man. Just insecure, and controlled a lot because of it.

 

MY dysfunction is what messed up our marriage. I was raised to be quiet, make sure everyone else was happy, and never ask for anything. So I didn't. When he would try to make me feel guilty for going to see my mom, a healthy person would have laughed at him and said too bad, I'm going. I just quit going. And then resented HIM. Stupid, huh? But I didn't know any better. It's only been the last few years that I've learned how messed up I was and how I could have done things differently. Because he really really wants me and would frankly do anything I said, if I would just say it. Finally, this year, I'd had enough of his negativity - the one big elephant, and a long story - and that I couldn't stay married if he didn't start going to therapy. So now he's going to therapy.

[merrmeade]

turnera, I am touched by your candor in sharing your story and tenacity in following mine. I guess I'd misunderstood and assumed you were here for the same reason.

 

I do not think that it is good for me to be in a position of defending my actions or inaction, so I won't if that's all right. It helps me to post somehow - kind of like writing in a journal - though I often have different feelings the very next day about events. Even today, when I woke up early to go with H to pick up my car, I felt resigned and clear about what's happened and what's possible. As upsetting as our encounters were yesterday, it reminded me that I am at this impasse because of everything that went before. The answers to the therapist's questions forced us to look at how long and the ways we'd let our own relationship falter and fallow without care or attention. I was gone for two years. Two YEARS. I didn't write that much or call. Before that, we were apart for much of 2003-2005 and 1996-1998. There were other periods of time, 1 to 6 months at a time, that we thought nothing of separation for work-related projects. He pulled away from everyone and did not share his inner turmoil with me about his illness for many years. During the two years I was most recently gone, he received a personal and professional rejection for certain work he'd done, which had been the most important (to him) of his life, and that rejection was conveyed to him through me. He was devastated by it, and I knew it; we did not discuss it. Though we share ideals, background and lifestyle, we are very different personalities, opposite even. He has not always appreciated the difference. Ideas of decency and the marriage vow itself have kept us together in name. So you see, there were already big, big problems. His relationship with my sister-in-law and the hard questions of therapy have brought all of it to a head, and one or both of us must decide where to go with it.

 

Please do not push me. I will decide when to decide and what is best for me. The talking and upsets we have engaged in for the past 24 hours are way better than being depressed and not talking. Change is good.

Edited August 9, 2012 by merrmeade
(spelling, grammar)

[merrmeade]

One thing I have to say. This morning he acknowledged what I was also thinking - that it's up to me. I have absolutely nothing to gain by being or staying with him. He asked why I would want to stay. He wasn't fishing. It's also been my question. It took a few seconds, but it was the answer - "Because I love you." He said, "I love you, too."

 

Not to be discounted.

[turnera]

merr, we are just anonymous people here. We're just a sounding board. As often as not, you'll get just as many people advising the exact opposite of each other, and it's up to you to take what works for you and leave the rest. Please don't feel you owe us anything. Just let us know your choices, tell us when to back off, and we will. We may not go away, but we'll back off.

[merrmeade]

that's okay - thanks - definitely hope no one goes away! the support has meant a lot to me.

[merrmeade]

Well, I do see that now. We were fooling each other. He didn't want to discourage me and vice versa, especially since it was all for a good cause or reason. It's asking a lot for us to get back to something that we haven't really known for a long time.

 

And his affair was long. As long as I was gone. Two years.

 

So I'm still stuck thinking about it - the affair - but now realizing we were already severely flawed as a couple.

 

He is really, really incapable of much right now emotionally without help. But that also characterized our relationship. He's always needed help how to help.

 

I don't know whether to focus on the affair - which I can't help - or the marriage or both. He does accept culpability for the affair but is immersed in shame-mode so far that we can't talk about it. He can't see me for his misdeed. ****.

[merrmeade]

I just discovered a list somewhere on one of turnera's posts:

Yes, some of them do lose the fog and realize what they did. Most especially the ones who quit the affair and go back to the BS. Then they start seeing, day to day, the truth. Some good articles:

• Anatomy of an Affair | Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates
  
• Ending Your Affair and Returning to Your Marriage - Part 1: Introduction - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates
  
• SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity
  
• Still dealing with affair fog « Not Over It
  
• Fence Sitters
  
• affair fog - Emotional Affair Journey
  
• What is “Affair Fog”Anyway? :Infidelity Recovery Center
  

Just wish I'd seen it earlier.

[merrmeade]

I can identify with the therapy. We went, and H barely contributed at all. Finally, we go in, therapist looks at me, probably noticing how angry I was, and asked what's going on. I said I'm the one doing all the work, and I quit. If he chooses to contribute to fixing this marriage, now's the time, otherwise we will spend this hour in silence, then I shut my eyes and did my best to go into meditation (total failure, but I did not make a sound). I could hear him shuffling about, the therapist asked him if he wanted to discuss things, then she shut up, too. He wormed around for a few minutes, and then finally started talking.

 

Turnera's right, whether you want to hear it or not. H and I made very little progress until I finally had had enough. I kicked his a$$ out, and then he finally got the picture I wasn't playing his stupid games anymore. I wish I had made him stay gone longer.

 

This sounds like what is happening. How far out from d-day was it when you kicked him out?

 

One thing that is so great about this forum is the empowerment given to the BS. It's like some sort of indigenous tribal dance that everyone is doing around the bereaved BS, mortally wounded to the soul. With each post, the dancers howl in rage or touch BS with their own stories. Slowly an energy builds that lifts BS's spirit. Does she rise and fight or burrow deeper into despair? To be continued....

Edited August 10, 2012 by merrmeade
spelling

[merrmeade]

:eek:Just to clarify something:

I should have used "Quote" reply. This:

that's okay - thanks - definitely hope no one goes away! the support has meant a lot to me.

was in response to this:

merr, we are just anonymous people here. We're just a sounding board. As often as not, you'll get just as many people advising the exact opposite of each other, and it's up to you to take what works for you and leave the rest. Please don't feel you owe us anything. Just let us know your choices, tell us when to back off, and we will. We may not go away, but we'll back off.

 

Not this:

I've been overweight for 22 years and he's never said a single word, though I know it's a really big deal for him.

Wow. I can't tell from this which of the two of you are more passive-aggressive than the other.

(FYI: I think that's what she was already saying and we both know.)

 

weight gain is from depression. I'm gaining daily. Passive-aggressive, too? Does it matter?

Okay, I'll stop editing. NOW.

Edited August 10, 2012 by merrmeade

[eeyore1981]

This sounds like what is happening. How far out from d-day was it when you kicked him out?

 

One thing that is so great about this forum is the empowerment given to the BS. It's like some sort of indigenous tribal dance that everyone is doing around the bereaved BS, mortally wounded to the soul. With each post, the dancers howl in rage or touch BS with their own stories. Slowly an energy builds that lifts BS's spirit. Does she rise and fight or burrow deeper into despair? To be continued....

 

It was either close to one year or close to two. Crazy I can't remember which one, I do know it was during the summer.

 

This forum has been a great well of knowledge for me. I'm a very intelligent person, but I was clueless about affairs. I don't even remember how long after dday it was when I turned to the internet in desperation and found this place. I think I googled "My husband is a cheater and a liar and I hate his guts" and LS came up, lol.

 

ETA: The therapy I referenced, that was my third and final attempt to do MC. So that would make it close to two years instead of one, because it was during this therapy I kicked him out.

Edited August 10, 2012 by eeyore1981

[merrmeade]

I haven't read the entire thread, just this last page. This is probably off-topic, but hopefully it will be helpful.

 

IMO, weight gain or anything self-destructive done in the name of depression is a way of being passive aggressive toward yourself. Think about that. Who gets hurt most from you not taking care of yourself? YOU.

 

From what I've read of your thread, you not taking care of yourself (and not just in regards to weight) is an overlying theme.

 

Sort of except that it's because of a lack of motivation. Inability to act or do anything,

[merrmeade]

It was either close to one year or close to two. Crazy I can't remember which one, I do know it was during the summer.

 

This forum has been a great well of knowledge for me. I'm a very intelligent person, but I was clueless about affairs. I don't even remember how long after dday it was when I turned to the internet in desperation and found this place. I think I googled "My husband is a cheater and a liar and I hate his guts" and LS came up, lol.

 

ETA: The therapy I referenced, that was my third and final attempt to do MC. So that would make it close to two years instead of one, because it was during this therapy I kicked him out.

 

This gives me hope for myself, i.e., that

• it's not too late;
  
• it's a process;
  
• I'm getting better at sticking by what's right and what I need;
  
• I'm getting better at seeing gaslighting when it's happening;
  
• I'm getting more vigilant about rug-sweeping;
  
• he WON'T get off the hook;
  
• I'm doing pretty well!
  

Because this relationship was long - 2, maybe 2-1/2 years - and I knew NOTHING about it, I cannot BUDGE from the need to reconstruct it. It finally got started last night.

 

Last night H went to bed first and I flipped. I just couldn't go one more day. I fumed and paced a while and then told H I was leaving because he'd failed to do what he'd said - prove my trust, blah, blah, blah. I said he obviously doesn't know what the f--k he's doing if he thinks that buying me gifts and asking me to think of things to do together (can't even come up with the ideas himself) will do it. I told him he'd started backsliding into self-pity mode and had no right ever to complain of my "twisting the knife in the back" when it was he who'd stabbed me first. I said he's ignoring the damage that he's done and my needs as a result of it and that, acting as if it will just go away, is another disrespect. I said I've been waiting for 2 months and if he is not going to do his part, then I have no reason to be here and would rather be anywhere BUT here.

 

Something got through because he was up and asking what to do. I said that he has to go through the emails with me from beginning to end and answer my questions as we go. Otherwise I will keep obsessing over them and creating the story I see. I said that I needed to see and hear his acknowledgement of everything that went wrong and why. We did it until pretty late but barely got through 10% of them. Because he's working today in the sun, he asked if we could start from where we left off tonight.

 

It seems good that it started, but not sure yet it will work (i.e., help me heal). We've only just gotten to the hard part in the emails. Reading is not a problem for me any more because I've read them so many times (and THAT is the point: I want to be purged of the need to read and reread them which is why I must do so withhim, asking questions, seeing if he sees and acknowledges). There is nothing 'mushy' or romantic in them. No sexual innuendos. Of course, the text messages are gone forever so I'll never know what was in them (in trying to open them, I accidentally 'restored' which erased everything on his phone - gone, no backup). The few I saw before accidentally erasing them were flirtatious and suggestive. Hard to imagine but maybe we can talk about them. We'll see what he's capable of. Don't hold your breath; history does not lend confidence to a 100% outcome.

 

In fact, whether this was a 'start' will be determined only if there's an end and THAT depends on many things. So we'll see ...

Edited August 11, 2012 by merrmeade
meaning, clarity

[turnera]

I'm glad you took a stand. You can see that's the only way you will be respected.

[merrmeade]

I have a question - not sure where to put it.

 

This thread was my 'very' first thread - started soon after dDay which was May 31, 2012. The last post in it was Aug. 11, 2012, which I never answered. And here it is Mar. 10, 2014, and it's still open.

 

I just finished reading several threads started 2-3 months ago that are closed.

 

I mean, I might come back here and post again. It could happen. Maybe the Moderators are really that wise and know more than I do about what I need. Or maybe they think somebody might actually want to respond to something. So how do they decide when to close a thread and when to keep one open? How long is the longest a thread has been kept open?

 

Or maybe I should come back and fill in the gaps. Finish the revelations of the trickled truths that eked out for months and months after this initial foray into Infidelity land. Is that why it's left open?

Edited March 10, 2014 by merrmeade

[road]

Mod's only close a thread when their is a problem with the posters.

[road]

Is their NC with the SIL?

[2sunny]

Any update OP?

[stillafool]

turnera, I am touched by your candor in sharing your story and tenacity in following mine. I guess I'd misunderstood and assumed you were here for the same reason.

 

I do not think that it is good for me to be in a position of defending my actions or inaction, so I won't if that's all right. It helps me to post somehow - kind of like writing in a journal - though I often have different feelings the very next day about events. Even today, when I woke up early to go with H to pick up my car, I felt resigned and clear about what's happened and what's possible. As upsetting as our encounters were yesterday, it reminded me that I am at this impasse because of everything that went before. The answers to the therapist's questions forced us to look at how long and the ways we'd let our own relationship falter and fallow without care or attention. I was gone for two years. Two YEARS. I didn't write that much or call. Before that, we were apart for much of 2003-2005 and 1996-1998. There were other periods of time, 1 to 6 months at a time, that we thought nothing of separation for work-related projects. He pulled away from everyone and did not share his inner turmoil with me about his illness for many years. During the two years I was most recently gone, he received a personal and professional rejection for certain work he'd done, which had been the most important (to him) of his life, and that rejection was conveyed to him through me. He was devastated by it, and I knew it; we did not discuss it. Though we share ideals, background and lifestyle, we are very different personalities, opposite even. He has not always appreciated the difference. Ideas of decency and the marriage vow itself have kept us together in name. So you see, there were already big, big problems. His relationship with my sister-in-law and the hard questions of therapy have brought all of it to a head, and one or both of us must decide where to go with it.

 

Please do not push me. I will decide when to decide and what is best for me. The talking and upsets we have engaged in for the past 24 hours are way better than being depressed and not talking. Change is good.

 

 

Are you and your husband still together?

[gettingstronger]

Please do not push me. I will decide when to decide and what is best for me. The talking and upsets we have engaged in for the past 24 hours are way better than being depressed and not talking. Change is good.

 

 

I can see how any progress is better than none at all- regardless of the outcome- you seem to be a very deep thinker- is your husband not one-that would be very difficult for me-I never knew my husband was capable of such deep conversations as the ones we have had post affair- I guess we were always kind of happy go lucky until this- I do wish you the best-you have a wonderful soul that shines through in your posts- I have no advice for you except to take care of you-even if that means posting and posting again-

[BetrayedH]

Mod's only close a thread when their is a problem with the posters.

 

This is actually a pretty good answer. Most threads stay open unless the original poster disappears and the masses just continue arguing with one another.