Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[dreamingoftigers]

Typical WS:

 

Don't get on my case! You're not perfect either! You invaded my privacy!

 

all right, all right, I'll stop.

 

Jeez, that was so two weeks ago.... Why aren't you over it?

 

Nag nag nag about reading some stupid book, that's all you do anymore. No wonder our marriage stinks!

 

Hey? Where are you going? What are you doing?

 

You think you can leave me? I'll make sure you end up with nothing!

 

What do you mean I lose half of my assets!?

 

Oh my goodness she's/he's dating someone new, how could they do that? Don't they have any shame?

 

Oh, so this is what it feels like, oh, man, did I screw up.... Maybe I can get back together with him/her, we had a lot of good years together after all.

 

Oh, it's too late..... Better pick up my pride and make it look like it was all for the best! Yeah! I meant for this to happen all along!

[Furious]

It's not really the sadness of losing something or left-over feeling for him. It's acknowledging the abuse, looking it in the face. How do victims do that?

 

In retrospect you cannot be hard on yourself, you did the best that you could and made the best of it.

 

To be married to someone who never gave you the respect you deserved is a hard pill to swallow.

 

 

You must now choose not to be a victim any longer and take care of yourself.

[merrmeade]

What exactly is this bomb that you feel is now in your hands?

 

Information that will rock the world of a lot of people: My sons will be blown away no matter how much they suspected. His family whom I've been close to for a long, long time. My extended family. And I don't know how to begin to deal with my brother and his family.

 

I ask sincerely...what is the worst that can happen if you divorce your husband?

 

I will be really and truly alone.

 

What is it exactly that you are afraid of happening?

 

Losing the happiness and big family feeling of all being together - parents, children, grandchildren.

 

Do you truly want to reconcile and do you think it's possible after everything that's happened?

 

No, but not because we wouldn't "reconcile." It's because I have been lying to myself for so long and can't do that any more.

 

What do you want...?

I want to lay out what he did in front of a 3rd party. I want that person to help him talk about why it's wrong, how it damaged me and in such a way that he will be floored, humbled, finished because of the truth of it.

 

And THEN, if he can be taken there and be truly remorseful for the damage done to others, then maybe he can be shown that way to a truly honest relationship with trust. He would be changed. I should say, IF he were changed, there's a chance.

 

- how is that different from what your family may want of you?

My family will prefer not to have had the drama and schism. They will blame both of us.

 

[i am very aware of the contradictions. I am also aware that expecting that he would or could be changed is probably delusional.]

Edited July 24, 2012 by merrmeade

[Furious]

Information that will rock the world of a lot of people: My sons will be blown away no matter how much they suspected. His family whom I've been close to for a long, long time. My extended family. And I don't know how to begin to deal with my brother and his family.

 

 

I will be really and truly alone.

 

 

Losing the happiness and big family feeling of all being together - parents, children, grandchildren.

 

 

No, but not because we wouldn't "reconcile." It's because I have been lying to

myself for so long and can't do that any more.

 

I want to lay out what he did in front of a 3rd party. I want that person to

help him talk about why it's wrong, how it damaged me and in such a way

that he will be floored, humbled, finished because of the truth of it.

 

And THEN, if he can be taken there and be truly remorseful for the damage done to others, then maybe he can be shown that way to a truly honest

relationship with trust. He would be changed.

 

My family will prefer not to have had the drama and schism. They will blame

both of us.

 

 

(((((Merr))))

 

Your honesty has deeply touched me.

 

 

I can see why it is so difficult and that fear and hope and keeping the peace

in your family weighs heavily on your shoulders.

 

Unfortunately your husbands actions have placed you between a rock and a hard place. You may have been able to sweep things under the rug in the

past but you know that this affair cannot be swept away.

 

As a mother the last thing you want is to burden your children, but I hope for your sake they rally around you. This cannot be kept from them, and they may be the key to getting your husband to realize what he stands to lose.

 

Everyday you are getting stronger and seeing things more clearly. There is no

rush, one day at a time, one decision at a time.

 

This is what has been my anchor, that I get through one day a time, that I face my fears and my hopes and not rush and be patient for the answers and

solutions that are best for me. I am nearly a year from d-day, and it's been difficult, we are slowly reconciling but I cannot say if we'll make it, but I am sure I will make it with or without him.

 

Keep strong

[merrmeade]

(((((Merr))))

 

Your honesty has deeply touched me.

 

 

I can see why it is so difficult and that fear and hope and keeping the peace

in your family weighs heavily on your shoulders.

 

Unfortunately your husbands actions have placed you between a rock and a hard place. You may have been able to sweep things under the rug in the

past but you know that this affair cannot be swept away.

 

As a mother the last thing you want is to burden your children, but I hope for your sake they rally around you. This cannot be kept from them, and they may be the key to getting your husband to realize what he stands to lose.

 

Everyday you are getting stronger and seeing things more clearly. There is no

rush, one day at a time, one decision at a time.

 

This is what has been my anchor, that I get through one day a time, that I face my fears and my hopes and not rush and be patient for the answers and

solutions that are best for me. I am nearly a year from d-day, and it's been difficult, we are slowly reconciling but I cannot say if we'll make it, but I am sure I will make it with or without him.

 

Keep strong

 

And THAT has touched me. Thank you.

[turnera]

I am also aware that expecting that he would or could be changed is probably delusional.]

And not in your control.

[turnera]

You are still making your decisions based on what is good for everyone ELSE.

 

Why do you do that?

[eeyore1981]

You are still making your decisions based on what is good for everyone ELSE.

 

Why do you do that?

 

This is very true.

 

I think it's because she has done it for so long she doesn't know how to do anything else.

 

Merr, my opinion is go ahead and factor your kids into your decisions, but for the rest of them, to h*ll with it. I noticed before you said something about letting your husband stay in that house until x,y and z. Does this benefit you? If it doesn't, and especially if it causes you any kind of distress, DON'T DO IT.

 

It takes one to know one. When we decided to reconcile, what I wanted was to take H's phone, stomp on it until I was out of breath, and then run it over a few times with my car. But no, I didn't even make him change his number, because it was used for business, it would have been a hassle to get the new number to everyone, blah, blah, blah. So I got to deal with the stress and bs of having the skank calling with her number private. When that started up, I STILL didn't make him change his number, because I had said no to it, so I had to stick to what I said...

 

The truth is I could have, and SHOULD have made him change his number, but I was so cemented into MY role of always trying to make it easier for everyone else, no matter how hard they made it on me. I'm better now, but it has taken a lot of work for me to recognize my patterns and change them, and sometimes I still do it, but as soon as I realize I'm doing it, I stop, and if a decision needs to be changed, so be it.

[turnera]

There's a powerful little book called The Dance Of Anger that teaches us how to say no to people - with love. Good stuff.

[merrmeade]

H is disabled with constant health issues affecting mobility and different organs at different times. I agreed for him to start a job just when I was finding out all this. This job was needed for him to pay off debts.

 

Plus, I didn't want criticism from people who don't know the truth or for my adult children to be burdened with him. His sister is willing and eager to have him. I want him out of my brother's house for good.

 

The details and color of the R have only been revealed slowly - "trickle truth" - over a period of weeks.

 

________

 

I do get the point. Just giving the reasons - not as excuses. It's where it is. Where I am...

Edited July 24, 2012 by merrmeade

[eeyore1981]

H is disabled with constant health issues affecting mobility and different organs at different times. I agreed for him to start a job just when I was finding out all this. This job was needed for him to pay off debts.

 

Plus, I didn't want criticism from people who don't know the truth or for my adult children to be burdened with him. His sister is willing and eager to have him. I want him out of my brother's house for good.

 

The details and color of the R have only been revealed slowly - "trickle truth" - over a period of weeks.

 

________

 

I do get the point. Just giving the reasons - not as excuses. It's where it is. Where I am...

 

Merr, how are things going?

 

I hope what I said didn't run you off, I wasn't trying to get you to answer to me, what I wanted was for you to answer these questions for yourself, what you want, what you're comfortable with.

 

I hope things are getting better for you.

[merrmeade]

Not to worry, eeyore. It's been a long road and there have definitely been some new twists and turns since the last posts. In fact, I just wrote for about an hour and lost the whole thing which maybe is good because it means it's time to summarize.

 

So event update first:

 

1. SIL wrote us both emails that she needed to use the house last weekend.
   
2. H was good, told me about them first and then deleted.
   
3. I wrote SIL back reminder not to contact H, remember?, and some other business matters.
   
4. SIL sent H a text message on the sly through a friend asking if he'd gotten a contact number (related to the business matters mentioned in my email). H actually answered - less than an hour after he'd read my email to SIL - and the friend sent the contact info. (H is a do-do. It was stupid and he didn't think about it coming from SIL.)
   
5. I completely flipped out, left the house and went to see my brother. I told him about my H's affair, not naming his wife as the OW. I said I didn't really know her (which is not untrue).
   
6. Next day, I got calmer and realized that SIL was acting on the basis of the unclear and wrongly executed phone call that H had made, and I'd ignorantly agreed to the month before - the 'it's over' phone call. The unfinished family business discussed in that phone call was a freakin' loophole. I told H that a real NC letter had to be written that day. He did it, did a bang-up job and we left it for SIL when we left the house for the weekend.
   
7. While we were having a lovely weekend with my son and his family, I continued monitoring online my H's phone usage to see if any more texts had appeared. I decided to revisit the phone bills of the last 16 mos. and was floored to see that I'd missed before the fact that, except for a few weeks here and there, they'd been in phone contact EVERY SINGLE DAY MANY TIMES A DAY for as far back as the online records would go. It was 4 in the morning but I woke H up and told him what this discovery made me feel. He minimized and dissembled, saying something that actually blew the whole thing out of the freakin' water for a while. He said that, in fact, he'd been doing SIL's remodel job on her house for most of last year - a total of 6 mos. out of the year, in fact - and so was AT HER HOUSE (and the dummy thought that this was explaining the phone calls) and had to ask construction questions. This was insane, of course; he doesn't talk to his other clients 10 times a day, every day. It also did not explain some other periods of time and times of the day. This was utterly devastating to me to realize the extent of the involvement and other life that he'd essentially created.
   
8. I begged him to once and for all 'tell the story' of their relationship because otherwise I would do so with my imagination and what information I could garner. I started asking questions and recreating the months that I'd been gone and felt greatly relieved that at last I knew what happened when and where.
   
9. We came back and saw that SIL had not come to the house. I went to see my brother and asked if SIL had come. He said, yes, and she'd left on Sunday. I asked if he'd told her what I'd told him Thu. about my H's affair. He said, yes, so I asked what she'd said. He said that she'd said that my H could stay in this house as long as he liked. Chilling, isn't it? The only thing he reported that she said. Of course, it went right over my bro's head which is okay and has to be because of his sad condition.
   
10. Next day was our anniversary. I decided I couldn't stay in this house with its reminder-triggers and booked a B&B. Well, even that was hard for me - any intimacy, in fact - and I stayed up all night writing a dynamite letter which I delivered to him tonight. (It's called "The Vow" and I'm going to post it as a separate thread because it might be interesting as a start for a discussion about couple vows, what do they mean.) He was quite affected by it, said he'd read it three times.
    

 

While he'd been reading the letter, I took the dog on a long walk and realized some very, very important things for myself. And THAT is what I wanted to share here, now. All the background before this point is really only important for the significance it gives this insight I feel I achieved tonight. I shared all this with my H, too:

 

I suddenly realized the reason I'm still here, the reason I've been flipping through therapists like cards looking for the right one and the reason I keep writing my H these letters and having these conversations that he rarely participates in. The reason is NOT what one therapist called my need for revenge. It is NOT even because of the hope for reconciliation. The reason I am still here processing the crap of what actually happened with my H is because I have a deep-seated, barely articulated craving to make sure that he sees everything that he did. He has to walk through this same fire I've walked through without looking down or away, head straight, eyes open and look.

 

I also realized that we are doing quite well - that I am doing quite well in my crazed but unmovable determination to make sure he is made to look squarely at what has happened and what it means. He must look with me, and he must see and understand what it has done. I don't know whether I'll ever be able to forget the fact that he essentially had another wife and family for a while, whether I'll ever be able to be intimate with him without thinking of his being so with her. I said this to him, and he didn't flinch. I also said that I realized, too, that there will be no 'reconciliation,' no getting back together, no forgiveness and no forgetting. If - IF - we get through this as a couple, it wil be starting over completely in a new relationship as new people. I said that actually we are doing pretty well that we were sitting there talking (well, with me talking and him listening as usual - I said that, too) without freaking out. I said that I've been through hell and so has he but we can now see progress and stages beginning to form. I said that if we survive this, we'll be better as individuals and changed, regardless of what happens. I said that he's seen me devastated but not destroyed and that I will survive. The fact that I'm letting him walk this recovery with me is going to help him and he will have to face his actions. I said that I knew very well that the point will also come that I will feel compassion for him and it will be genuine. I said that when I forgive him, it will be for myself because I need it to heal myself. It does not mean that we will stay together. It means that we will have gone through hell together. The future is unwritten.

 

So I'm posting "The Vow" on another thread and will see what responses there are.

Edited August 2, 2012 by merrmeade

[turnera]

HE has been through hell?

 

In what way?

[merrmeade]

HE has been through hell?

 

In what way?

 

I said "The fact that I'm letting him walk this recovery with me is going to help him and he will have to face his actions....It means that we will have gone through hell together." - will have gone through hell together IF recovery happens. This paragraph was about what might happen."The future is unwritten."

 

I am feeling pretty free of vitriole and expectations at the moment. I don't hate him, and I don't need him either. I don't expect so much of him or of therapy. I think that slowly we have been creating therapy at home - correction: I have. I think his interest is what he's said: regaining my trust, saving our marriage. You can call my wish for him to look at what the truth of happened with me revenge or control, but in the end the truth will release us both and identify what and who we have become, what and who we want. That's where it is. I'm satisfied with the plan. Divorce is still an option but not today.

Edited August 2, 2012 by merrmeade

[eeyore1981]

I said "The fact that I'm letting him walk this recovery with me is going to help him and he will have to face his actions....It means that we will have gone through hell together." - will have gone through hell together IF recovery happens. This paragraph was about what might happen."The future is unwritten."

 

I am feeling pretty free of vitriole and expectations at the moment. I don't hate him, and I don't need him either. I don't expect so much of him or of therapy. I think that slowly we have been creating therapy at home - correction: I have. I think his interest is what he's said: regaining my trust, saving our marriage. You can call my wish for him to look at what the truth of happened with me revenge or control, but in the end the truth will release us both and identify what and who we have become, what and who we want. That's where it is. I'm satisfied with the plan. Divorce is still an option but not today.

 

You have to do what you have to do. The goal is to make what you do help you more than it hurts you. These things aren't always the same for everyone.

 

For example, I pretty much blasted it from the rooftops when I found out about my husband's affair. I seem to be in the minority of thinking that's the thing to do, and after five years, I still think it was exactly the right thing to do for me, and I have no regrets. It actually was very freeing and empowering for me.

 

I just hope if you find what you're doing stops working for you, you'll know you're free to change your mind and do something else. It doesn't make you less of a person. You've been handed a terrible situation, and it's okay to take the wrong path from time to time in trying to make your way through it. This isn't directly targeted to you, I've just seen people do things like say they'll give it a year, their spouse continues to behave like a jacka$$, yet they feel compelled to continue with the entire year, because they said they would.

 

I'm really pulling for you, and I hope things go as you hope they do!

[turnera]

I said "The fact that I'm letting him walk this recovery with me is going to help him and he will have to face his actions....It means that we will have gone through hell together." - will have gone through hell together IF recovery happens. This paragraph was about what might happen."The future is unwritten."

 

I am feeling pretty free of vitriole and expectations at the moment. I don't hate him, and I don't need him either. I don't expect so much of him or of therapy. I think that slowly we have been creating therapy at home - correction: I have. I think his interest is what he's said: regaining my trust, saving our marriage. You can call my wish for him to look at what the truth of happened with me revenge or control, but in the end the truth will release us both and identify what and who we have become, what and who we want. That's where it is. I'm satisfied with the plan. Divorce is still an option but not today.

actually, you said

I said that I've been through hell and so has he

 

You still defend him and prop him up, at your own expense. You're an enabler.

 

Why is that?

 

And in what way has he been through hell?

[merrmeade]

Hmmm. I don't think I'm communicating. Guess there are many hells - Hell Past, Hell Present and Hell Future.

1. "have been through hell" - This is not what I said but, if it were, it would refer to Hell Past. I definitely knew it and H needs to.
   
2. "will have been through hell" - THAT is what I said. That refers to Hell Future which we will go through when we actually delve into what he did and caused. To go through Hell Future, one must necessarily pass through Hell Past and Present. It is a requirement.
   

 

I'm not posting to argue or prove a point or even be funny though it's easy to get carried away with the Dickens analogy - not that the therapist-spirit would have such an easy script for redemption.

 

Having received a lot of help from a lot of people on this forum since starting this thread, I wanted to be responsive and give an update not just about events but also about changes I am experiencing.

 

For weeks, I have been looking for a therapist who will help us process what happened - the affair - what he did, what it meant and will mean. Not only do I want the story, even though I think I have it now, I want to hear him and be convinced that he really gets what he did to me and to our family. This is not enabling because it will be hell. I think that we "will have been through hell" (Hell Future). Hope that is clearer.

 

Because I recognize that he is lousy at this does not mean that I am letting him off the hook. There has been progress from 'rug sweeping' I/me/mine shame to many talks during which he tries. In fact, he has been up front and willing to go through Hell Present on a daily basis with me, but we need a therapist to facilitate the talking. And he is willing. It would have been much harder for me if I had just left and filed for divorce because I would be stuck in the pain of not knowing everything myself but still obsessing. I would have to accept that he would never know the hell I definitely have been through (Hell Past).

 

I refuse to give a goal or outcome yet. I don't owe that to anyone but myself. We might divorce; we might not. It does not matter right now because I am in Hell Present which demands accountability for Hell Past.

 

I also mentioned the possibility of forgiveness on down the line. Also not enabling. It is simply imagining the possibility of a time when I will be free - not physically - but emotionally. Forgiveness will never mean absolution for what he did. It will mean that I am strong, full and myself and don't need anything from him one way or the other. It will mean that - stay or go - I am autonomous and fine.

[merrmeade]

HE has been through hell?

 

In what way?

 

I did say that; I stand corrected. But I really think comparing our hells will solve little and hardly matters. I do think that, of course, he's been through hell. Do you think I spared him? He has witnessed and been the target of my rants, screams, sighs, and crying. He has had to 'talk' (as best he can) for hours. I am not following a script and he knows it. He would not choose this hell nor would I. He accepts and is trying, and that is for me to know and say.

[turnera]

Do you think I spared him?

Honestly? Yes. You're still there. I've seen dozens of unfaithful men on these forums AND in real life who literally believe that if all they have to do is shut up and listen to their wife rant at them, to be able to go out and live a double life, they will gladly and willingly put up with it. Do you think he really listened to you in all your ranting? Not likely.

 

Look, I know you 'know' him and I don't. It's not my place to steer you to one course or another. But I usually get it right when understanding the undertone of how people write and what I sense is a 'less than' in you. Whether it's from fear of being alone, fear of failure, fear of what people will say, fear of your parents'/family's opinion...I don't know. All I know is I see someone who has NOT mentally disconnected from a man who purposely lived a double life by lying to you for years and years. To me, that is not safe for you. That is not putting you any higher than 'less than' him. And it scares me for you because I foresee a time when your soul catches up with your heart and stops you dead in your tracks when all the giving in catches up with you.

 

I know your argument, that you left him alone for months at a time, you ignored him, yada yada. But HE could have done something about that, too, not just you. And he didn't. Because he was enjoying doing your brother's wife and getting away with it.

 

Has he at least taken a polygraph? Signed a postnup? What HAS he done since getting caught?

[merrmeade]

Has he at least taken a polygraph? Signed a postnup? What HAS he done since getting caught?

 

For real? People do that? And a postnup? Is there an example somewhere? Good grief.

[BetrayedH]

For real? People do that? And a postnup? Is there an example somewhere? Good grief.

 

Polygraphs do happen and I've heard plenty of examples here. You can only get in a few of your most critical questions but the WS almost always coughs up the truth on the way there (like, literally, almost everytime).

[turnera]

merr, I hope I didn't upset you. I'm being a little blunt because I care and because I've seen SO MANY women just like you over the past 10 years I've been doing this who...well...do what women do - bury their OWN needs and rights and indignation and pay more attention to keeping the man at all costs.

 

And then I see them come back a month later, a year later, sometimes 5 years later, saying God, I wish I would have just stood up to him when I had the chance, he never changed, he just got better at lying and using me. I feel so dumb and used up.

 

I don't want that for you.

 

If he really loves you he will understand and he will get out of the way so you can heal, and then come back and PROVE HIMSELF 100 times over to make up for what he did.

 

And if he won't do that...then why stay?

[merrmeade]

Okay, I've been rereading through some of my own posts. I have an update and clarification.

 

First, the clarification:

At one point on Trickle Truth Creek, H admitted that the petting-only story of d-day 1 was incomplete but did so non-verbally. I went crazy and posted a lot about this. Well, it is almost a month and a half later, lots of conversations and education. On that one point, I want to say that I

 

First, the update: Still together. Starting therapy. No decisions yet.

H summary:

He changed after reading "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" from hiding from the shame of discussion. He has continued expressing remorse and gotten gradually better at conversation and responding to my need to know. He is there when I talk. He answers questions. He listens at 3 in the morning or 11 at night. He's better at identifying the information needed. He apologized many times and rarely offers an excuse. He disclosed to my daughter. Though he IS trying, it will take a rebirth for him to dive into confession without a guardrail (maybe therapy). I can tell he thinks are all going to work out (don't know, don't care) and he's safe (wrong).

My summary:

I am still depressed a lot and don't get much done but sit at the computer.

I cannot think about the future. Compared to a month ago, we have actually come a long way, but it's been more about gaining a semblance of normalcy. We eat regularly anyway. We are in the present and the present is about the past for me. I am bound to it and will not be able to leave it until he makes the journey with me back into it, watching and hearing every step of the way and, perhaps with the help of therapy, showing he understands where he went wrong and why. I did research and am convinced in my bones that it must be possible. He has committed to doing this with me. I'd been holding out for the right one but think we found her at last. On our own, we managed not to drown which is saying something. We see her tonight for session #2.

 

Second, clarification regarding the extent of the PA:

D-day 2 initially was H assenting to the fact that the PA had been more than just petting. After that, I thought for a long time, no matter what he said, that they'd had full-blown intercourse throughout and posted like that. I no longer think that was the case and not because he's tried to convince me otherwise. He hasn't. He's said once or twice the same story which I now believe is mostly true. It's not better. It's actually sadder. Here's why - It was a story that he and possibly she created so they could live with themselves: I think that they tried to convince themselves of the delusion of their 'friendship only' (mainly, sorta "90%" as he said on d-day 1) for the sake of their images of themselves and the lives they wanted to lead. I think they desperately needed the emotional affair and did not want to compromise that. They believed that they were resisting the urge but on occasion gave into some version of sex (it was sex, of course) that was not as bad as intercourse. They "lost it" at these times. They would then go back to faking their BIL/SIL best friends facade to the world. I think she still believes this. Those were just accidents that shouldn't have happened. I think they thought they were trying to do the "right thing" and wanted to believe they are good people. For me, it's the only explanation for the incredible defensiveness that she showed the few times I talked to her. It is why he initially claimed that the relationship was 90% supportive friendship. (OMG that festered deep and long.) I think she continued (-s?) in that delusion.

 

He has come a long way with this. No more 90% good, 10% bad. He's on board with - I had an affair with my SIL for 2 years until a few months ago. Period. That's what he told the therapist.

[merrmeade]

I'm trying to post these days without edits. First thoughts, etc.

So will just add rather than edit. There was no question there.

 

Where it is for me is this: The truth. Gotta have it. He's gotta embrace it and shower me with it. Not just the truth of what happened but the truth of why, who he was and is and why he does what he does. So I ask myself - Is it possible that he can really see and begin to come forward given his personality and lifelong practice of self-deception? If not, how long before I give up? If so, how long before I decide it might work?

[turnera]

Welcome back. Your first clarification, the sentence ended in the middle. Did you want to add something to that?

 

As for him, I do think it's possible for him to finally realize the depths of what he's done and get to the other side. If his deception is deep-rooted, though, it'll likely come only with IC. And probably not standard IC but one of those specialized areas where they get to the root of who you are. I'd look into that. And it won't come any time soon; be prepared for years of therapy.