Husband's intimacy with sister-in-law a devastating blow

[merrmeade]

Is she a marriage counselor, or an individual counselor. And if she can/does both...which capacity is she providing her services in to you...MC, or IC? Sounds to me like she's focused entirely on you...which suggests IC, not MC. Which would explain the disconnect between the advice you've seen here and the advice she's giving you.

 

Here...most folks focus on steps to recover the marriage. Having an "even playing field" by being given all the information is key to MARITAL recovery...less so to INDIVIDUAL recovery.

 

She said she does both but still wanted to go this way - IC first. I think her choice of recommended reading, "After the Affair," confirms this approach. Here's a summary from Psychology Today - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/what-the-wild-things-are/201104/what-do-you-do-after-the-affair:

 

After the Affair is a ground-breaking book that walks partners through a healing process after the devastation of an infidelity. The first of its kind when it was published in 1996, the open, frank, and insightful thoughts contained in this book still very much hold true for couples today.

 

Rich with examples from her clinical practice, Dr. Spring has written a comprehensive guide for couples in the aftermath of infidelity - walking them through each stage of recovery. In the first stage, Reacting to the Affair, she empathizes with the likely feelings of the "hurt partner" and the "unfaithful partner" (her language), giving language to, and normalizing, their experiences. In the second stage, Deciding Whether or Recommit or Quit, she helps both members of the couple confront their ambivalence about the relationship and make a thoughtful decision about whether or not to stay. In the third stage, Rebuilding Your Relationship, she reviews strategies and tools to help the couple rebuild trust, intimacy, and get to forgiveness.

 

Rather than demonizing either person, After the Affair presents a compassionate and balanced perspective, holding both members accountable with deep empathy. Couples may find that therapy - both individual and as a couple - is necessary and helpful for their recovery and rebuilding process. However, After the Affair can certainly serve as a companion to that process - helping the couple to put words to their experience, and helping them learn to ask for what they need while building a new relationship together.

 

This explains things to me. The "After the Affair" model is what she knows and what's worked for her clients, she feels. The question is whether this is what I want. When I told her about the two books we were reading - "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda J. McDonald and "NOT 'Just Friends'" by Shirley Glass - she had only heard of the latter.

 

Here's a quote about the Glass book from her website - http://www.shirleyglass.com/book.htm:

 

NOT "Just Friends" is the first book to shatter popular assumptions about infidelity, including: a happy marriage is insurance against infidelity; the betrayed partner must have ignored obvious clues; and the unfaithful partner was compensating for emotional or sexual deprivation in the marriage. Dr. Glass's research not only proves that these are unfounded myths, her surveys of 465 therapists demonstrate that these myths are being perpetuated by ill-advised marriage counselors who are also treating their clients with inappropriate techniques. For instance, many counselors erroneously advise couples to bury the past and avoid discussing the details of the affair after it's discovered-despite research evidence that indicates open discussions about the betrayal are essential to recovery.

 

Dr. Glass's scientific approach to infidelity is unique in its treatment of the betrayed partner's shock as a trauma. She helps couples cope with post-traumatic reactions and recover from the emotional roller coaster that follows deception, suspiciousness, and the shock of revelation. Refined over decades of clinical counseling, Dr. Glass's practical, step-by-step guide for re-establishing safety and trust in the relationship is central to NOT "Just Friends" and shows how telling the story of the affair and establishing its meaning for both partners can make the union stronger than it was before. Original quizzes by the author allow readers to explore personal traits, relationship characteristics, and outside influences that increase risk and susceptibility to unfaithful behavior. Eye-opening vulnerability maps offer insights that can keep friendships safe and marriages secure.

 

I am not sure about the IC. I am not ready to the put the affair behind me, not think about it, not talk about it or my husband. It's impossible.

Edited July 18, 2012 by merrmeade

[turnera]

Not all ICs are good ICs. And some carry their own agenda.

[freestyle]

Not all ICs are good ICs. And some carry their own agenda.

 

 

I second this, very strongly.

Take your time to find a good fit, and don't be afraid to check backgrounds.....

 

My SO's best friend has an exgf who slashed his tires, and still sends him pictures of her in lingerie ( he's been married for a decade, and has a family now)---guess what she does for a living??

[merrmeade]

As much as we'd like, we can't dodge the sudden reality of where we find ourselves when it finally sinks in.

 

I didn't sleep for months, I barely remember how I got through somedays.

 

What helped was getting my ducks in order.

 

Got into IC for my self and my children.

Retained a divorce lawyer.

I changed my will.

Removed him off my life insurance policy.

Read everything I could to try to understand.

Walked...walked....walked...until my feet hurt.

Took up Karate.(hahaha)

 

Take care of yourself, and with time he will either prove to you he's worth the effort or not for a second chance.

 

Hugs

 

Re-reading the thread - I think this is a really useful example list for someone staggering through initial post-affair trauma. Still there but less wobbly.

[merrmeade]

Our MC screwed us up six ways from Sunday. He felt that the affair was obviously wrong, my wife didn't deny it, so what the point in talking about it? There was zero accountability. We spent nearly every week discussing my "paranoia" and basically how I should look at everything differently. Because, gee, she's here now with you, isn't she?

 

My W already wanted to rug sweep and he handed me the broom. Ugh. I'd still like to punch that guy in the face. Of course, all my paranoia turned out NOT to be paranoia after all. After those two watched me suffer thru PTSD, go on ADs...Ugh.

 

If you hear anything like that, run.

Ours discussed her H's affair and then she told me the last time I went that her H had, after many years and a "successful" reconciliation, her H had been in contact with the OW recently. Good way to make me feel optimistic, right?

 

Sigh - She also told us that she was sure one of us was responsible and one was not...you think?? Obviously, I was the responsible one and we had discussed this. She also told me I was cutting XH off when he was talking. This I will cop to. I did do that - because he was telling her that he had not done anything wrong and that I was making it up. She was eating it up and yucking it up with him; talking about motorcycles in between and having a grand old time. When I said - wait a minute; what about OW and this and on and on...she said, I guess he just feels like he can't say it. Give me a break. The next time we went, I showed her messages, pictures of the women he was talking to and some other crap and she looked at him and asked him "what the hell was he doing?"

 

Not a good experience. I stopped going and went to a Psychologist who succinctly summed up my situation and ended up telling me that at the end of all of it that I needed to look at why I picked the men I did. I said no worries, don't plan on ever doing this again and he told me that didn't matter. He was so right and so excellent. I will say that he did not cut me slack; he was honest and did not make any choices for me, but did encourage me when I made some good choices and definitely helped me decide what to do about my son, who was 20 then. He was awesome and worth his weight in gold. BTW, my XH did not go with me as by this time, I had uninvited him.

 

Oh, and XH wanted a lot of credit for going to MC with me. He saw it as a way to appease me, to show he was trying to save our marriage and doing what I wanted him to do. I guess he thought it was ok to cheat there, too. Always with the wrong choices, that man.

 

You all have been right about a lot, and unfortunately this, too, sounds familiar.

 

We went to see the 2nd therapist yesterday - the man. It was a brief meeting - no charge - for us to meet and ask questions. He took the position that we would both be working. He said that regardless of whether we stay together, it would be good for us. He made it sound like he'd be trying not to give blame one side or the other and make us both take responsibility. He got the facts from us about the affair and whether there was now no contact. He told H has to be 100% honest and answer all my questions if that's what I need and assured him that ned would not last if he did. He said it would be "fun." He said he'd been married 40 years and chatted aerospace engineering with my H afterwards (his previous job).

 

I felt that he was trying to straddle a fence so that my husband will trust him. It must have worked because H said when we left that he seemed "neutral" - didn't take sides.

 

He differed from the woman I'd seen regarding the need to disclose to the kids right away (she said to do it immediately; he said - when we're ready).

 

All in all, my little voice inside wasn't ok with it. I think the therapist is fine, but the approach - that we come on an equal footing - didn't set right with me. I felt more fragile and vulnerable than I should have. He asked how I was doing and I said I wasn't sleeping well and found myself distracted, thinking a lot about it. He said I needed to work on d

[BetrayedH]

MC is tough because MCs are likely to want to be neutral with their two new clients. Understandable really but yes, it makes you lose your footing. You're angry and have a right to be angry. It's pretty disconcerting.

 

This is where Owl would typically chime in with a question about my goal.

 

Here's what sucks...it doesn't (and shouldn't) have to happen right away but if your goal if to reconcile, your H will expect to have equal footing. And your MC is going to (most likely) going to try to work on restoring mutual love and respect for each other. It's kind of a pre-requisite for a healthy marriage.

 

I went this route with our MC and it allowed my wife to rugsweep. She was never truly confronted by our MC and boy, I'm sure my wife was relieved. I kept going there because it was the one place my wife would talk and open up (or so I thought).

 

At this point, I have to confess that I am not an expert on reconciliation. I didn't reconcile. But I suspect that it was because my wife was never held accountable. She wasn't confronted and never had to reach the rock bottom that it would take for her to truly be remorseful and to truly reconnect with me. I was always being managed and couldn't take it.

 

Otherwise, I look forward to you finishing your thoughts. Looks like you fell asleep updating LS again.

[turnera]

What's your goal, merr?

[merrmeade]

MC is tough because MCs are likely to want to be neutral with their two new clients. Understandable really but yes, it makes you lose your footing. You're angry and have a right to be angry. It's pretty disconcerting.

 

This is where Owl would typically chime in with a question about my goal.

 

Here's what sucks...it doesn't (and shouldn't) have to happen right away but if your goal if to reconcile, your H will expect to have equal footing. And your MC is going to (most likely) going to try to work on restoring mutual love and respect for each other. It's kind of a pre-requisite for a healthy marriage.

 

I went this route with our MC and it allowed my wife to rugsweep. She was never truly confronted by our MC and boy, I'm sure my wife was relieved. I kept going there because it was the one place my wife would talk and open up (or so I thought).

 

At this point, I have to confess that I am not an expert on reconciliation. I didn't reconcile. But I suspect that it was because my wife was never held accountable. She wasn't confronted and never had to reach the rock bottom that it would take for her to truly be remorseful and to truly reconnect with me. I was always being managed and couldn't take it.

 

Otherwise, I look forward to your finishing your thoughts. Looks like you fell asleep updating LS again.

 

What's your goal, merr?

 

You're right, BH, I fell asleep talking about how the therapist was treating us as if we both have things to work on equally. Here are some of the things he said:

• He asked if I was thinking about all of this a lot, and I said, yes, I was quite distracted by it, not sleeping properly, etc. He indicated that it is up to me to do something about that. I should be trying to live my life without this as a constant obsession and not be distracted. [i didn’t appreciate this.]
  
• When I said that it had been particularly hard realizing how much H had changed for my SIL and her family and become the loving father-figure, companion and nurturer that he'd never tried to be with me and his own children, the therapist just said, "Oh, so you would like that?" and looked at my H as if he’d passed on a handy secret. He did not say anything about how people in affairs try to become the idealized partner that the affair partner has exalted them to be. The therapist was jumping on it (I felt) as something my H could work on now.
  
• The therapist seemed fine taking H's word for things.
  

Note regarding an interesting exchange during this initial session: Therapist asked H how long affair had gone on, was it short or long. H answered "short" – a year and a half. Therapist: "That's long." H had told me it was a year (which I never believed). I think it was more like two years.

 

Basically, this person was trying to be, as my H said when we left, “neutral” so that my H would trust him. I am sure that this approach would involve finding faults with both of us and making each of us appreciate things about the other, yadayada - i.e., marriage counseling - and makes me think that, in fact, that is not what I want. I am not ready for give and take, we're both at fault, let's put it behind us and move on, etc. The question is whether I am willing to play the role required for this to work. The goal would be reconciliation and we would be tacitly agreeing to equal responsibility, sharing mistakes, making effort on both sides to rectify inherent problems in our relationship. I understand that this is what marriage is.

 

HOWEVER! This approach does not address the fundamental condition that I am stuck in. There has been an earthquake in my gut, a cannonball shot to the heart, an explosion shattering my dignity, innocence and trust. Unless and until the perpetrator of this holocaust walks through the debris with me, I cannot give him an inch of my cooperation in rebuilding anything. He has to get me out first.

 

Now, to address turnera’s question about goals. The problem is not only identifying my goals but also timing.

Goals are the same:

• If we (I will end up doing it) can find someone who will help H see and own the the breadth of all his actions and the depth of their consequences, then I can consider taking a next step with him and working on a future together. I'm still looking for that person.
  
• After H apologizes to me in front of our children, I may consider taking a next step with him and working on a future together.
  

 

Timing - why can't we get these things done?

• Work, 5 days a week, his.
  
• Transportation - only one vehicle.
  
• Location - Home in the country.
  
• Privacy – ours and my daughter’s. She is here for a few more weeks and has asked me and the lady therapist insisted as well, that I stop confiding in her.
  
• Family in different places - The apology hasn't happened because two of the children live in another city 3 hours away, and their schedules have made it hard to find a weekend when everyone is in the state. I think it will be too hard on my sons to do it without my daughter. They will be in shock and will need to talk to her and be reassured by her calm acceptance. I think this should be done now.
  

 

H seems to be interpreting what I'm saying and not saying, doing and not doing optimistically, in part, because we're in stasis. On the way to the therapist's last week, he said, "I am 100% sure that we are going to make it." I was taken aback by his confidence. I said that I wasn't so sure, but I don't think he heard. I’ve said it 2 or 3 times. Also, the fact that I am going about business-as-usual with him day after day makes it seem like the past may eventually just disappear. He must think it's just a matter of time before I will forgive.

This is an affront to my dignity, and the no-fault approach of the therapist would be another such affront.

 

[Don't be confused. I have two posts and wanted this one first.]

Edited July 23, 2012 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

I know this is throwing a lot of disparate stuff out there with two LONG posts about EVERYTHING, but even if no one answers it helps me if it's not a problem otherwise. So here's another:

 

You know? It is rather like therapy posting here because basically the benefits of therapy happen for me mostly by the fact of saying things out loud.

[i do NOT think this would be the case for my H.]

Seeing my words in front of me is like hearing myself identify issues out loud to others. The logic and truth of what I'

m

saying is impossible to ignore though somehow I do seem to do just that.

I was looking back at different posts, reactions to my comments -

 

Well HE should be doing A LOT of speaking, even if you are not.

 

He should literally be up your arse saying and doing everything he can to make this up to you regardless of whether or not you decide to kick him to the curb.

 

He's not scared - at all. Not a good sign.

 

It doesn't appear that he's going to do one proactive thing to fix any of this.

 

[bB really really made me uncomfortable with this one. S/he seemed to 'see through' me and echoed thoughts I've had over the years]

If you are truly honest with yourself, you will find an instinct telling you to leave this man. If you had listened to that same voice that was calling to you much earlier in the relationship (it was there!) you might have avoided this mess. But all of this happened for a reason...and now that voice is back. Will you listen this time, I wonder?

 

This really is the question and I do not know the answer to it: Why have I stayed all this time? I lost respect for him YEARS ago and fully admit it's a relationship of acceptance and social form. Not doing anything lets everybody connected with the marriage keep on without disruption or disturbance. It leaves the ignition of the bomb strewing disruption/disturbance for everyone in my hands.

Edited July 23, 2012 by merrmeade

[turnera]

I'm feeling very sad, merr.

 

If it was a regular affair, I'd be rooting for you. This one is beyond the pale, and it makes me sad that you are considering accepting this without any real remorse, humility, or work on his part. I know, you SAY you're going to demand all that.

 

When?

[BetrayedH]

Better cut that MC loose. He's obviously not an expert on infidelity. Mine was the same way. 7 months I went to that guy and I made one sacrifice after another to better the marriage. I couldn't believe that we could never address the elephant in the room that we rode in on. In the meantime, ky W just got to keep on lying and never was held accountable. That said, it sounds like you've got this guy pegged.

 

I would otherwise agree with Turnera...I just don't hear anything in your posts that says what you H is doing. I could list 15 things my wife did early and she still wasn't truly remorseful. Sounds like your H is just going to do whatever his mommy says. He's just waiting for official confirmation that he's dodged the bullet. It will stay this way until he has a reason to change. They seem to find the motivation when the dirvorce papers are in front of them.

 

Sorry, Merr. I feel for you.

[skywriter]

This really is the question and I do not know the answer to it: Why have I stayed all this time? I lost respect for him YEARS ago and fully admit it's a relationship of acceptance and social form. Not doing anything lets everybody connected with the marriage keep on without disruption or disturbance. It leaves the ignition of the bomb strewing disruption/disturbance for everyone in my hands.

 

Wow, now that's heavy....I think that alot of BS/WS, OM/OW, and the likes could take something out of that statement and apply to their own situations.

[merrmeade]

This really is the question and I do not know the answer to it: Why have I stayed all this time? I lost respect for him YEARS ago and fully admit it's a relationship of acceptance and social form. Not doing anything lets everybody connected with the marriage keep on without disruption or disturbance. It leaves the ignition of the bomb strewing disruption/disturbance for everyone in my hands.

 

Wow, now that's heavy....I think that alot of BS/WS, OM/OW, and the likes could take something out of that statement and apply to their own situations.

 

Yep. It seems to have me stuck.

[merrmeade]

I'm feeling very sad, merr.

 

If it was a regular affair, I'd be rooting for you. This one is beyond the pale...

 

I know it's obvious, but would you mind - just for the record - listing the parts that are "beyond the pale" in your opinion?

 

(I know it may be hard to believe considering how seemingly rational and verbal I am, but I'm serious. It's kind of like coaching...)

[turnera]

Well, aside from the MAJOR fact that he cheated with your FAMILY MEMBER, there is the fact that they both did it basically in front of her PARALYZED HUSBAND, and your brother. Who does that?

 

Other things you've said:

for a couple of years my husband has been involved with my sister-in-law in an emotional affair that also had a physical component. - This isn't just a mistake, merr. It's premeditated PLANNED cheating that they knowingly carried on for TWO YEARS. Planned to DECEIVE YOU for two years.

 

H stays in a small house that my parents left my brother. SIL also stays here when she visits her H - Is she still doing so? Planning to?

 

H has had a history of getting women to feel sorry for him and help him. - What's changing about this?

 

I have been a complete enabler by looking the other way, feeling or expressing discomfort at the obvious admiration these women, even women we both knew, showed him. I have never succeeded in holding him accountable or talking about how this has been a problem for me. - And you are still not holding him accountable. He hasn't changed, and neither have you.

 

frequent visits in the hospital (a 6-hour drive for her). Hundreds and hundreds of emails over a five-year period. - This is more than just an EA - it's premeditated LOVE AFFAIR.

 

He would thank her for birthday presents (which I knew nothing about) - He had an entire life without you that you knew nothing about.

 

She denied and obfuscated throughout. I was practically begging her to be straight and felt terrible for the confrontation. Later that day I hugged her in an attempt at reconciliation. - You are ending up the only one feeling guilty here. Doesn't that sound wrong to you?

 

btw, you also said this:

He has sworn that he will not have any contact with her. He has admitted his problem with flirting with women and will stop. I have told him it's his last chance. I have told him that I will stay here (not travel) until we and all our things are moved out of this house and settled somewhere else.

 

This just seems way too easy at times. I have demanded heart-to-hearts three times since d-day and the last time he pretty much cried and called himself broken, saying he is so ashamed and begging me to try and make our time together meaningful (rather than going over and over this).

[merrmeade]

Well, aside from the MAJOR fact that he cheated with your FAMILY MEMBER, there is the fact that they both did it basically in front of her PARALYZED HUSBAND, and your brother. Who does that?

 

Other things you've said:

for a couple of years my husband has been involved with my sister-in-law in an emotional affair that also had a physical component. - This isn't just a mistake, merr. It's premeditated PLANNED cheating that they knowingly carried on for TWO YEARS. Planned to DECEIVE YOU for two years.

 

H stays in a small house that my parents left my brother. SIL also stays here when she visits her H - Is she still doing so? Planning to?

 

H has had a history of getting women to feel sorry for him and help him. - What's changing about this?

 

I have been a complete enabler by looking the other way, feeling or expressing discomfort at the obvious admiration these women, even women we both knew, showed him. I have never succeeded in holding him accountable or talking about how this has been a problem for me. - And you are still not holding him accountable. He hasn't changed, and neither have you.

 

frequent visits in the hospital (a 6-hour drive for her). Hundreds and hundreds of emails over a five-year period. - This is more than just an EA - it's premeditated LOVE AFFAIR.

 

He would thank her for birthday presents (which I knew nothing about) - He had an entire life without you that you knew nothing about.

 

She denied and obfuscated throughout. I was practically begging her to be straight and felt terrible for the confrontation. Later that day I hugged her in an attempt at reconciliation. - You are ending up the only one feeling guilty here. Doesn't that sound wrong to you?

 

btw, you also said this:

He has sworn that he will not have any contact with her. He has admitted his problem with flirting with women and will stop. I have told him it's his last chance. I have told him that I will stay here (not travel) until we and all our things are moved out of this house and settled somewhere else.

 

This just seems way too easy at times. I have demanded heart-to-hearts three times since d-day and the last time he pretty much cried and called himself broken, saying he is so ashamed and begging me to try and make our time together meaningful (rather than going over and over this).

 

This is what I asked for. Thank you. Working...

[freestyle]

I know it's almost cliche' on this board---but it really does help to take this point of view........

 

 

What would you say if your sister, best female friend, or daughter came to you, complaining of being in an identical situation? What advice would you give her?

[BetrayedH]

This is what I asked for. Thank you. Working...

 

Merr, a typical reconciliation scenario is a ONS where the WS immediately and voluntarily confesses and is truly remorseful (initiates NC, is voluntarily transparent with their time and whereabouts, focuses on what you need rather than their own guilt). Just the fact that it was a LTA is a major indicator of character. Adding in the fact that it was your paralyzed brother's wife is, well, you get it. But the kicker here is his response since Dday. He couldn't even read a ****ing book about how to help his spouse in a timely fashion for you.

 

Please know that I'm not judging you and not trying to bring up painful crap. God almighty, my wife's crap was over the top and I spent 7 months fighting what I thought was the good fight and preaching forgiveness. Sadly, she had already shown me who she was and I should have believed her. Sometimes we just get so close to a situation, we can't see it properly.

 

I can't stand sitting here feeling like I am pushing you towards D. I still believe in reconciliation after infidelity. But I know it takes two. What is he doing? Making you guess at whether it was one, one and a half, or two years. This is because he lied, cannot remember what lie he told, and is still lying.

 

Sorry, these people just piss me the hell off sometimes. I don't mean to pressure you at all. You can take as much time as you need to make this major life decision. I'll shut up now.

[Furious]

 

 

This really is the question and I do not know the answer to it: Why have I stayed all this time? I lost respect for him YEARS ago and fully admit it's a relationship of acceptance and social form. Not doing anything lets everybody connected with the marriage keep on without disruption or disturbance. It leaves the ignition of the bomb strewing disruption/disturbance for everyone in my hands.

 

 

Merr

 

 

What exactly is this bomb that you feel is now in your hands?

 

I ask sincerely...what is the worst that can happen if you divorce your husband?

 

What is it exactly that you are afraid of happening?

 

Do you truly want to reconcile and do you think it's possible after everything that's happened?

 

What do you want...and how is that different from what your family may want of you?

[merrmeade]

It's not really the sadness of losing something or left-over feeling for him. It's acknowledging the abuse, looking it in the face. How do victims do that?

[turnera]

They admit that they are human, and they agree that their greatest weakness is...being a good person. Who was taken advantage of.

[merrmeade]

They admit that they are human, and they agree that their greatest weakness is...being a good person. Who was taken advantage of.

 

Sorry. Did not follow this.

[merrmeade]

Merr, a typical reconciliation scenario is a ONS where the WS immediately and voluntarily confesses and is truly remorseful (initiates NC, is voluntarily transparent with their time and whereabouts, focuses on what you need rather than their own guilt). Just the fact that it was a LTA is a major indicator of character. Adding in the fact that it was your paralyzed brother's wife is, well, you get it. But the kicker here is his response since Dday. He couldn't even read a ****ing book about how to help his spouse in a timely fashion for you.

 

I still believe in reconciliation after infidelity. But I know it takes two. What is he doing? Making you guess at whether it was one, one and a half, or two years. This is because he lied, cannot remember what lie he told, and is still lying.

 

Thank you for the succinct directness here.

 

-- He did read the book

btw

- after being reminded. Only time he's been proactive. Lasted about 3 days.

[turnera]

Sorry. Did not follow this.

You asked how victims accept what happened to them, and (I assume) their role in it. They accept it by not expecting themselves to be perfect.

[turnera]

Thank you for the succinct directness here.

-- He did read the book

btw

- after being reminded. Only time he's been proactive. Lasted about 3 days.

merr, he has NO REASON to be proactive. You're still there.