Why NC doesn't work article

[woinlove]

There can be a lot of pain in an EMR and still the happiness outweighs the pain and thus the relationship will continue. There are other ways to take control and make changes in your life and in your EMR than NC. By focusing on premature NC no positive change is made. Giving support where you are at can change the dynamics within the EMR and make it a much happier relationship. When NC is the only advice given to OW/OM/WS in pain, to many it is as if no help is given. But I guess that makes sense to those who believe all EMRs are bad and should end. To me, I know by personal experience that support within the relationship can make a huge difference. I am happier than ever with my MM today. And much is due to all the positive support I have been given from other OW and OM. Support that consisted in so much more than just a simple "Go NC."

 

Like LG, I don't see much of the simplistic advice you refer to.

 

But on the topic of much pain, to me it depends what the source of the pain is. If it feeling bad and guilty about the secrecy/deception and how others are treated, then I think getting out of the affair, either by bringing everything out in the open and dealing with the consequences or ending the A by ending the R with the AP, is the way to go because I think continuing to behave in a way which makes one feel guilty and bad about themselves erodes self-esteem and can take many years to repair if it goes on for any length of time. If there is no guilt or feeling bad about how one is behaving, and the pain just comes from other sources, that is a different matter. As you said earlier there might be other things one can do to remove whatever is causing pain.

Edited June 23, 2012 by woinlove

[anne1707]

This video illustrates quite well how unsupportive giving standard onesided advice is:

 

 

Actually a well respected member of LS posted that link for me years ago and it really helped. I love that clip (and that poster).

 

Horses for courses.

[MissBee]

Oh, there is a zillion of things you can do to ensure you are happier as the OW/OM/WS. Support while being in the relationship is too vast a subject for me to delve further into it here, since it varies so from situation to situation, from relationship to relationship. But to summarize I think the Serenity prayer says it well:

 

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

 

 

Well I guess that is where we will have to differ.

 

I don't believe an affair is something you cannot change...you can very well change your relationship status anytime you choose. I think the courage to change it part is about right though and I think a lot of people come here looking for the courage to change things and not necessarily to keep the status quo and be better/happier OW/OM.

 

If someone is unhappy because of the problems inherent in an A, then I personally cannot advise them on how to be happier in the A. The obvious solution to me is, get out of the A, since it is because it's an A, and what it entails why you're unhappy...it is not something you cannot change, you just need the courage to change it. No one needs to suffer though an A and pray to accept it IMHO...that would be a prison of their own making.

[woinlove]

A lot of the unhappiness in an EMR is caused by your own attitude and that is within your power to change. Ending the relationship is not the only option available. When you seek advice on a relationship forum, I do not think you are looking for people to tell you to end the relationship. You already know that option is available to you. What you are looking for is other options, you are trying to figure out if there are any. And there are.

 

Actually, quite a few OW/OM/WS post here for advice and shortly after come to the conclusion that they do want to end the A and are grateful for the advice which helped them see that. There are active examples right now. Many people in affairs are not happy being in an affair because it is an affair (whether it is the secrecy, deception, how it impacts others, or because they want an exclusive, committed R). For those people, it makes sense to change the R, by either ending it or moving it to an out in the open R. Others may be happy it is an affair, but still want more time, or something that is missing. Those can probably make other changes within the confines of an A.

 

I agree one's own attitude is important, but one wants to make sure one is being true to oneself and to what one needs to feel good about oneself. Everyone is responsible for discovering that and respecting it in themselves and when they do find it, it is not going to matter what others say. Before they discover it, they likely will benefit from diverse points of views, particularly ones which suggest they should change things. If they are unhappy, what they should avoid is only hearing opinions which do not require any change in themselves or in their actions/decisions.

[MissBee]

A lot of the unhappiness in an EMR is caused by your own attitude and that is within your power to change. Ending the relationship is not the only option available. When you seek advice on a relationship forum, I do not think you are looking for people to tell you to end the relationship. You already know that option is available to you. What you are looking for is other options, you are trying to figure out if there are any. And there are.

 

We could go back and forth all day...but we see As in fundamentally different ways. For me, an A is inherently a bad situation for most and the hurt and drama is not because they have a bad attitude, but the A contributes to them feeling badly and having a bad attitude. For many people, they are going against their values and are settling by choosing to date a married person. For me, the solution isn't to just accept things and be happier with what you can get. I have been in an A before Trinity, and normal relationships, so it is not as though I have no experience with this. When I felt bad in the A it was because it was an A....that situation wasn't helpful for me, even though I did mental gymnastics in order to be okay with it. But I could never be and I was never serene and at peace with it...sometimes I thought about it less than others, but under the surface there was always discomfort. For many OW/OM this is how they feel....and because you didn't feel that way or for you you don't think leaving was right...for many others, they want more and don't want to have to pray to accept it. We will continue to differ on that. Many different people post here and maybe your take on it is just what some people need and they feel more like you, and maybe my take on it, and how I felt is what some people need. That's the beauty of LS. I always say, who my advice and story is meant for is who it will resonate with it. That's all I can do here.

 

For those saying NC isn't always appropriate or for them it didn't help, that is absolutely fair.But the other side of the coin is that as much as it may not be appropriate for some, it is very much appropriate for others. None of us, whether you're on the anti-NC side or NC side, get to determine for posters who are asking for advice, which it is. Only they get to say if it helped them or not. There are people who fundamentally disagree with As and some who don't, and this naturally colors the type of advice people give. People have a mixture of opinions to choose from. The two sides will not always see eye to eye, but neither can determine for the OP whether or not advice is appropriate for them. We can only say what WE think -the OP asking is the final judge of the usefulness of it, and fortunately some do stick around or come back to say what helped or didn't.

 

 

LS is a free service, with anonymous people, not hired as professionals and certainly not liable for what happens if people follow their advice. We don't go to board meetings to decide on what kind of stuff we should tell people and therefore what is appropriate for someone's situation is not set in stone - it is determined by that individual receiving it and the person giving it uses their own judgment. Any person coming on a message board must have this in mind; in fact, any person asking a friend for advice in real life, must have this in mind too. Advice is only that, advice - that a person can take or leave based on its resonance with them- so even "bad advice" is not on the person giving it, but the one who decides to follow it. You take all online advice with a grain of salt and you sift through it and figure out what is best for you. There will be good, bad, great, terrible and useless advice, no one should expect that free, anonymous people will always have the right or appropriate answers for them (in fact, I doubt people look for answers so much as input to help them find their own answer); however, the poster who asks for it is the final one to say if they felt the advice of NC was useful to them or not.

Edited June 23, 2012 by MissBee

[onthefence210]

I think I'm confused by the original question that referred to an article and an opinion on NC in association to an A. I read the article and it sounded to me that what she was getting at was that NC is different from cold turkey. NC in the article sounded like something that usually the WS insists on and therefore in the case of being caught and not ready to end the A because it wasn't ultimately the WS decision...it seems forced (WS trying to control things) and therefore it just doesn't work. That is when you get the back and forth. You go without contact long enough to get the WS off your back and you find alternative ways to contact OM/OW. To me NC is when the A ended because someone had to tell u to do it or else. If the WS wants to committ back into the marriage, It's just common sense u stop all contact. I agree with the article...you can't force someone in a NC situation. The WS has to decide that it's no longer worth selling your soul to the devil for a few moments of happiness. I think most of the posts got a little off track. But to a WS or OM/OW who don't have a suspicious S, or are still in the honeymoon phase of the A where they aren't thinking of anyone else...NC means nothing to them until they are being forced into it when they get caught. The BS thinks that by the WS agreeing the A has stopped. Not that easy. Cold turkey is a decision that the WS or OM/OW has made a conscious decision to get out of something that in reality...doesn't exist and they no longer want to live in la-la land. It can be a lonely place when you WS is home with his W and kids and throws you a crumb or two to keep u on board.

[woinlove]

I think I'm confused by the original question that referred to an article and an opinion on NC in association to an A. I read the article and it sounded to me that what she was getting at was that NC is different from cold turkey. NC in the article sounded like something that usually the WS insists on and therefore in the case of being caught and not ready to end the A because it wasn't ultimately the WS decision...it seems forced (WS trying to control things) and therefore it just doesn't work. That is when you get the back and forth. You go without contact long enough to get the WS off your back and you find alternative ways to contact OM/OW. To me NC is when the A ended because someone had to tell u to do it or else. If the WS wants to committ back into the marriage, It's just common sense u stop all contact. I agree with the article...you can't force someone in a NC situation. The WS has to decide that it's no longer worth selling your soul to the devil for a few moments of happiness. I think most of the posts got a little off track. But to a WS or OM/OW who don't have a suspicious S, or are still in the honeymoon phase of the A where they aren't thinking of anyone else...NC means nothing to them until they are being forced into it when they get caught. The BS thinks that by the WS agreeing the A has stopped. Not that easy. Cold turkey is a decision that the WS or OM/OW has made a conscious decision to get out of something that in reality...doesn't exist and they no longer want to live in la-la land. It can be a lonely place when you WS is home with his W and kids and throws you a crumb or two to keep u on board.

 

Not sure why that article sounded to you like she was talking about NC imposed by the WS or BS or anyone other than the person going NC. In fact, she specifically refers to NC that doesn't work in her opinion as "self-imposed NC".

[whichwayisup]

As you saw from my reply to that OP, it was that NC should not be applied unless you are done with the relationship forever.

 

NC is not advice that should be given lightly. It should IMO be made clear that it is only for those who are truly done with the relationship forever.

 

There is a lot of advice and shared experience that can be given from the viewpoint of still being in the relationship. If the person is torn between staying or ending the relationship, it can be helpful to assist him/her in sorting out whether the relationship is still worth it for them or not, but that is of course hard to do if your opinion is that all EMRs are bad and should be ended, which I presume is the opinion of those who recommend NC as a standard solution.

 

So nobody should offer NC as advice because you have your own beliefs on what you think the purpose of NC is? Only offer NC if the relationship is indeed over?

 

You shouldn't assume/presume what other people's opinions or intentions are as you are not their head.

 

A person can make up their own mind if they want to do NC or not. Nobody here has the right to tell another poster NOT to tell others do to NC.

 

NC ONLY works if the person doing NC wants to do it. There's NO harm in suggesting it even if the person isn't ready to yet.

[MissBee]

So nobody should offer NC as advice because you have your own beliefs on what you think the purpose of NC is? Only offer NC if the relationship is indeed over?

 

You shouldn't assume/presume what other people's opinions or intentions are as you are not their head.

 

A person can make up their own mind if they want to do NC or not. Nobody here has the right to tell another poster NOT to tell others do to NC.

 

NC ONLY works if the person doing NC wants to do it. There's NO harm in suggesting it even if the person isn't ready to yet.

 

I agree wholeheartedly...it is being said as though a widespread catastrophe will occur if someone suggests NC to a person not ready, or worse, if that person follows the advice on their own volition. They are already in a painful situation, or else they'd not be trying to go NC, refraining from speaking to the source of your pain and distancing yourself from the situation may be uncomfortable but most times no more traumatic and disastrous than what they're already doing.

 

Some are saying that NC is a natural solution to us, yet their counter argument is still THEIR OWN solution. We all can only give our own solutions and what makes sense to us...isn't it so? Who gets on here to say stuff that doesn't seem sensible or natural to them? Whether it seems sensible or natural to other posters or the one seeking advice is not for us to decide...but them. LS is a marketplace of advice and people pick and choose what fits them. So one cannot say, "Don't tell people to go NC because that is your solution and it didn't work for me". How is that also not robbing other people of a option that may be valid to THEM? To me, just as much as one says NC is one-sized fits all and is not the solution for everyone, telling people that because it didn't work for you and then proposing what YOU think is supportive and what was supportive to you, as the standard other people should use is no different....

 

Many people have said NC helped them a lot...others said it didn't. People can advise NC or an alternative as they see fit, if it makes sense to them based on the situation....the final judgment of what works is based on the person asking, who of their own free will will follow or not follow LS members' advice.

[whichwayisup]

I take it you do not agree with the author of the article then, as she clearly indicates the harm of doing NC prematurely.

 

No more harm than keeping the A going and putting up with the rollercoaster ride. At least with NC, a person can detach and think without being influenced by their AP and feelings.

 

Harm, so what? It won't KILL anybody to do NC. Pain subsides and lessens over time.

[whichwayisup]

What works for one person may not work for another. It all really depends. Again there is NO HARM in suggesting to someone to try NC. The sky isn't going to fall either way if it works or doesn't work.

[whichwayisup]

Some people can face it, be strong and find it easier to go cold turkey and get it all out at once. Some need to take their time and do it in phases.. Neither are right, neither are wrong. Whatever works for each individual. I just don't like that fact that so may freak out on here when NC is suggested.

[MissBee]

You do not see the difference between premature NC and Cold Turkey?

 

It is help with diminishing the rollercoaster ride and instead turning the EMR into a more calm and pleasant relationship that can be given by proper support to those who wish to stay in the relationship.

 

I can tell you during our NC period Neo was more focused than ever on me and our relationship. His body was present at home but not his mind. It was after NC he decided to become sexually exclusive with me and also gave up on working on his marriage. It was a turning-point in that sense for our relationship.

 

 

So didn't NC benefit you then???

 

I don't get it...you talk about during NC Neo was more focused on you and decided on sexual exclusivity...did NC not work in your favor then? It seems post-NC and due to NC, things got better for your relationship.

 

So why keep insisting it is such a bad thing if, when by your account, it made things better?

 

Or are you implying that if people want to get out of an A, NC will make it so that they actually get closer? Either way I don't get what your contention is. You advocate for those who want to stay in As...so I would think if NC worked to help you and Neo get exclusive and close, you'd be recommending it to more other women who want to stay. But you are against NC...so I don't get why...if NC worked for you. You said it wasn't right for you earlier now you've said it made things better.

 

The article implies that to a degree, but it seems like the place where people differ is that the back and forth is detrimental. I personally think that MOST people in life don't go cold turkey with most things they're trying to quit. Was reading a great book yesterday and one chapter was titled "The Only Things That Happen Quickly Are Bad Things". In the chapter he discusses how when people try to quit an addiction or bad habits, they expect that once they decide, they will quit and never look back and get discouraged when they go back and forth. He was saying that it doesn't work like that and it's a process, as the attachment didn't build up overnight, so too it doesn't go away over night. That said...doing NC and wavering is a normal thing. A lot of people all across LS have experience with it and the wavering and were no worse off for it.

 

The author talks about NC as a break basically, of a one month NC for example. I don't think most people who advocate NC on LS mean the person should stop talking to MM for a period of time...usually they mean end it for good. But in any case, like with your situation, NC provides a space to do SOMETHING, one way or another, versus trudge along. NC either stays permanent and the relationship ends all at once with no going back, or one wavers and goes back and forth til it either ends forever or you reunite and things change (which is no different than not going NC but still being on LS complaining and feeling badly..you are still on a roller coaster, except the NC roller coaster at least promises some kind of point versus the roller coaster of the A that is perturbing you but nothing is being decided).

Edited June 25, 2012 by MissBee

[whichwayisup]

I honestly wouldn't bank results of how NC works or doesn't work on an article. I'd rather base it on what I've seen and read on here. NC works more than it doesn't work. And I've been on LS for quite a long time..

[betterdeal]

Nobody here has the right to tell another poster NOT to tell others do to NC.

 

Well, strictly speaking, they do have that right, and the person being told has the right to ignore the instruction, challenge it, follow it or otherwise react as they wish to it.

[MissBee]

The addictions I've quit I've quit once and for all and never looked back. Does this writer have any personal experience of addictions? Do you?

 

Trinity...do you realize that what is true for you is not true for other people? What does you not ever looking back have to do with whether or not this is the norm for other people?Rehab facilities exist and support groups because MANY ppl obviously don't go cold turkey, many backslide or waver. If you've never heard of this and are using what YOU did to discuss what is true for other people..then I don't know what to tell you.Unless one can differentiate between their own experiences and the norm for others or even other possibilities for others, then all conversations will be from a self-centered place that uses the self and projects it on to the world.

 

In any case do you care to answer the other aspects of what I asked...which are way more relevant IMO than this talk about whether or not I or the writer have experience with addiction...and to answer, yes and yes.What does that have to do with anything really? Of everything I said this is the important part to you?

 

I'm still curious about if NC worked for you and helped you to achieve a better relationship according to what you said...why do you dislike the advice? Why wouldn't you want other people to benefit like you did? Why did you act like NC was something LS was forcing and you were strong enough to not listen to, yet you say you did NC and got closer and your relationship flourished? I truly am trying to understand where you're coming from with this because it isn't gelling for me and is contradictory. It would have been more fruitful IMO for us to truly discuss that and how it relates to the article than other side points. In any case...it doesn't matter actually. NC helps who it helps and doesn't who it doesn't, no one died from following NC, people will continue to advocate it and others will dissent...but posters will still choose what is best for them and the world will still spin.

Edited June 26, 2012 by MissBee

[whichwayisup]

Well, strictly speaking, they do have that right, and the person being told has the right to ignore the instruction, challenge it, follow it or otherwise react as they wish to it.

 

They have the right to ignore the advice, of course! But not to dictate or tell someone how to post and what type of advice to give.

[Mme. Chaucer]

N/C is for people who want to see an end to unhappiness, dysfunction and pain in a relationship. It does not matter what mouthful of letters you want to label the relationship with. If it's bad for you and you want your life to be better, N/C is well advised.

 

The only time it can be "premature" is when the person is not ready and able to stick to it.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[writergal]

They have the right to ignore the advice, of course! But not to dictate or tell someone how to post and what type of advice to give.

 

I agree with you. I think the expectation here is that if someone offers advice, you're expected to take it. If you choose not to, the advice-giver throws a fit.

 

Did Oscar Wilde have it right?

 

“It is always a silly thing to give advice, but to give good advice is fatal.”

-Oscar Wilde

 

and this one as far as advice-givers go:

 

“The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.”

-Oscar Wilde

[betterdeal]

They have the right to ignore the advice, of course! But not to dictate or tell someone how to post and what type of advice to give.

 

I disagree: they are allowed to by the site's terms of use and telling them what they can or cannot tell others to do is somewhat ironic.

 

I'm not saying it is right (as in good, or correct); I am saying it is a right (as in it is permissible) for them to try telling other posters what to say, even though in practice I for one will ignore their instruction.

[Art_Critic]

When I first came to LS, confused and looking for help, everyone was telling me NC was the only viable option. Neo was away on a family trip at the time and influenced by what I read I decided to go NC when he came back. But once he was back I couldn't go through with it. I had to find my own answers with no help of the majority of LS posters. Luckily there were some posters here who had knowledge and experience to share of staying in the relationship and thus I got support from them. The NC advice did nothing for me other than confuse me even more. I didn't understand at first that it was given mostly by BSs and former OW now anti-affair who had no interest in giving me the support I was looking for.

 

At times I have referred to NC as No Chance. Many MM/MW are so torn, they would like to have the decision made for them. If the OW/OM goes NC, they may see it as if the choice has been made for them, and merely accept this outcome. An OW/OM should thus in my opinion only initiate NC if she/he truly wants to end the relationship. It serves her/him no other purpose.

 

Our NC period was initiated not by me, but by Neo because I was pushing him to make a decision and he felt the need to see if he could make his marriage work first. It lasted a week and was an awful, devastating experience. Yes, it had some positive outcome for our relationship. Perhaps it was needed for him to realize he was way past the point of working on his marriage.

 

So for us NC actually had a positive outcome, and yet I do not recommend it. Why? I think Neo and I were lucky. He had already been moving towards being sexually exclusive with me, this was just the final straw. But the working on the marriage thing? Maybe NC was necessary for that. IMO his realization came because he went into NC with the firm intent of working on his marriage and experienced how impossible it was. Had he not had that firm intent, he would not have learnt anything.

 

As you can see, our bond became stronger by NC just like the author says in the article. But why go through this roundabout way to make a relationship stronger? A way that may indeed instead damage the relationship and will certainly wear emotionally on the two participants in the relationship. And for many it merely leads to flip-flopping between the two relationships. I've seen this warned against in available literature.

 

Neo twinges thinking of NC, and we both agree we would never do it again. Why torture yourself when you love one another? For us it worked, but for the majority I would say going NC prematurely most likely just messes them up from what I've read on LS. But sure, if the MM/MW asks for space to see if he/she can work on the marriage, give him/her that. Most likely he/she will return just like Neo did, realizing you can go NC physically but in your heart you can not. Sometimes in life good things come out of bad things, but you don't seek them voluntarily.

 

I see EMRs as no different from other relationships. It's not like NC is recommended instead of marriage counseling to save a marriage where you are having problems. Why would you part to make it better?

 

IMO you have never actually done NC..

A week isn't NC..

A week is trying to do it but failing...and on top of that he did it.. you didn't apply NC to heal and move on..

You seem to have every excuse as to why not to try it.

[nofool4u]

I'd find it hard to believe that someone could just say to their AP one day - OK NC - don't ever contact me again & NEVER AGAIN talk with their ex.

 

Of course you find it hard to believe when you still hold a special place in your heart for your AP.

 

NC is extremely difficult when you've vested your time & emotion into someone for quite a long period of time (me 3 years)

Even now (3 years LATER.)... at times is difficult not to reach out just to find out how he's doing. But those of us (me) who've been in NC for a long time realize that it really is best for all parties involved.

 

And you are in the lucky position of having a husband that doesn't care if your AP contacts you. You H is apathetic to it all, and you can use that to your advantage and can be your excuse to keep in contact with your OM, or more specifically, you don't have to tell your OM to never contact you again, because your H doesn't care....about anything.

 

Any other man that holds his wife dear to his heart would tell you that you need to tell the OM to F off.

[MissBee]

Neo twinges thinking of NC, and we both agree we would never do it again. Why torture yourself when you love one another? For us it worked, but for the majority I would say going NC prematurely most likely just messes them up from what I've read on LS. But sure, if the MM/MW asks for space to see if he/she can work on the marriage, give him/her that. Most likely he/she will return just like Neo did, realizing you can go NC physically but in your heart you can not. Sometimes in life good things come out of bad things, but you don't seek them voluntarily.

 

I see EMRs as no different from other relationships. It's not like NC is recommended instead of marriage counseling to save a marriage where you are having problems. Why would you part to make it better?

 

Frankly,

 

I'm not sure how many relationship therapists counsel couples in an affair...it would be interesting to hear about that.

 

You see no difference between an EMR and a marriage or regular relationship...most people do, even professionals. I really wonder how many people in an affair go to a counselor together, admit they are in an affair and are looking for ways to have a stronger affair relationship and the counselor just counsels them on that and says absolutely nothing about perhaps they should stop being married...which may alleviate many of their problems.

 

Interesting point and that would make a whole other interesting topic. I would love to hear from affair couples going to counseling together and what their counselor has to say about this.