Women in the Olympics and body types

[123321]

I'm really not intersted in a conversation about how you believe American women "fail" to be what you want.

 

I have seen many thin women get passed up and over for. The issue is much bigger and deeper then your deep dislike of specifically women that are over weight. And I am not really even very interested in your deep dislike of women that are over weight. This does very little to broach the subject I'm personally interested in. Good luck.

 

Well I LOLed on "bigger and deeper", for whatever it's worth.

 

I don't dislike fat people or fat women, I just don't DATE them. I like them fine, but I don't find them sexually attractive, there is a difference. Women have their own stereotypical expectations just as men do, and like all stereotypes they do exist for a reason, and there are plenty of exceptions.

 

That's just life, best to accept it and do the best one can within that framework.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Well I LOLed on "bigger and deeper", for whatever it's worth.

 

I don't dislike fat people or fat women...

 

You just like laughing at fat jokes and telling them what they should do then.....

 

I just don't DATE them. I like them fine, but I don't find them sexually attractive, there is a difference.

 

No one said you had to find overweight women attractive. I just don't get the nasty little jokes and comments about this or that. It doesn't make sense to say you don't dislike fat people, you're fine with them yet make shunning comments and jokes at their expense.

 

Women have their own stereotypical expectations just as men do, and like all stereotypes they do exist for a reason, and there are plenty of exceptions.

 

That's just life, best to accept it and do the best one can within that framework.

 

You lay down and accept anything you want to accept because of the status-quo. Just because other people accept things for the status-quo doesn't mean I'm going to do that.

[StandingO]

I ask, woman Olympic athletes while in training or off. They come across very different. My GF did high level athletics years ago. Her pics of then and today are very different. Today she is still in great shape and she is only 5 pounds heavier, less upper body muscle, some but not much added body fat while her legs are the slightly bigger but as much if not more muscular. The overall shape is more feminine and natural. Both are sexy but because she has less upper body muscle she to me looks better today then before.

[123321]

You just like laughing at fat jokes and telling them what they should do then.....

 

I prefer to think of it as laughing at fat jokes and offering constructive and practical advice.

 

 

No one said you had to find overweight women attractive.

 

But apparently I'm a bad person because of it, I guess.

 

 

You lay down and accept anything you want to accept because of the status-quo. Just because other people accept things for the status-quo doesn't mean I'm going to do that.

 

Well change the world or adapt to it, color me practical if I think it's easier to accept and/or adapt than change the attitudes of 7 billion people.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

I prefer to think of it as laughing at fat jokes and offering constructive and practical advice

.

 

I'm not sure what you find "constructive" about your statements. But it always tells me a lot when grown adults laught about other people because of something like weight. I remember people laughing at over weight kids back in elementary school. It's undeniably lame to be an adult and still parcipating in that mentality.

 

Further, your "advice" (and that is used very loosely) is actually pretty limited. I also was never specifically talking about over weight people yet this is all you can seem to focus on. This is your own agenda. Not mine.

 

 

But apparently I'm a bad person because of it, I guess.

 

 

 

Well change the world or adapt to it, color me practical if I think it's easier to accept and/or adapt than change the attitudes of 7 billion people.

 

Congrats on being a follower then? I mean, that's your choice. Have fun.

[123321]

I'm not sure what you find "constructive" about your statements. But it always tells me a lot when grown adults laught about other people because of something like weight.

 

It's not specific, but come on, when someone upset about a discussion on fat people says the issue is bigger than <whatever>, that's just comedy gold.

 

 

I remember people laughing at over weight kids back in elementary school. It's undeniably lame to be an adult and still parcipating in that mentality.

 

Oh keep reaching.

 

 

Further, your "advice" (and that is used very loosely) is actually pretty limited.

 

Well less is sometimes more *snicker*.

 

 

Congrats on being a follower then? I mean, that's your choice. Have fun.

 

Yeah, I tend to mostly conform to societies norms unless I find them ridiculous.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl

And. . . I think they both have an unnatural degree of muscle, as I said. I can see the difference, but at that point. . . eh, they all look weird to my personal aesthetic taste.

 

Maybe it’s the face that’s throwing you off. Remember how you talked about that before?

 

It is my experience that many regular women (not professional athletes or Olympians) who do sporty and athletic things in their regular lives ARE often sought after by many men who value that. Let's be 100% clear: Are you suggesting they are not? Not all men like the same thing, mind you, but I know oodles of guys who love a fit, athletic-minded woman!

 

I never said there weren’t regular women that do sporty or athletic things in their regular lives Zengirl. That has been your assumption and issue. Not mine.

 

I don't honestly see it that often that it's Playmates, though in a thread about such things (pornography etc) it would make sense to use such pics.

 

 

Well I do see men using examples of Playmates and it wasn’t used in just threads about pornography. I guess we disagree again. Shocker.

 

You have strongly implied you take some umbrage with it with statements like, "So why aren't women in the Olympics seen as more attractive then Playmates?"

 

And this equates to seeing something as right or wrong how? How is it that you get to tell me what I consider right and wrong because of your over theorizing and obessive disection of my comments?

 

I, like MC, am a bit baffled at the real purpose of the thread, and I don't mean that as a slight, just an observation. You've kind of bounced all over.

 

I think you love slights very much. People don't say the things you say regularly without loving slights. People don't have to defend their comments to begin with if they don't understand that there isn't something quite right about them making them. Then you hide behind your own words because you want to be able to get away saying things to me specifically without taking responsiblity for your own words. You blame me for the things you choose to say.

 

As for "bouncing all over", perhaps you should reflect a bit on your , take a own comments. The difference between you and I is that I am not offended or I don't see anything wrong in ideas within a thread taking a turn here and there. Ideas get explored all the time. I don't whine about how your comments bounce around.

 

Lastly, Mme already asked me this question and I responded. If you are not going to take my responses to questions at their word, why even ask me things to begin with? You've proved to me that my conversation with you is a waste of time. You have already preconceived ideas in your head and no matter how I respond, you relentlessly drill after me hoping to get the responses *you* want. You have the audcity to see that Mme asked me a question and that I answered and bascially say that it's untrue. Again, this is not my issue. That is your issue. This statement here caused me to stop reading the rest of your post. You are not interested in an honest dialogue even if we disagree.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

It's not specific, but come on, when someone upset about a discussion on fat people says the issue is bigger than <whatever>, that's just comedy gold.

 

I am not upset about a discussion on over weight people. Your singular focus on just over weightness shows your only motivation when you make comments about women and looks. This is not the only issue women face within the sphere of their looks. As I said, I didn't say you had to care about women. No one is saying you have to give a crap about women.

 

I'm do find jokes into adulthood about over weight people trite. *shrug*. Oh well.

 

Oh keep reaching.

 

What am I reaching about? I said what I mean.

 

Well less is sometimes more *snicker*.

 

You would hope so wouldn't you but I have yet to see that be the case in *this* situation.

 

 

Yeah, I tend to mostly conform to societies norms unless I find them ridiculous.

 

Excellent. Following it is for you then.

[123321]

Excellent. Following it is for you then.

 

You do realize that getting confused and wandering off on your own isn't "leading", right? Right?

 

 

.... there are still a lot of women out there struggling and trying to figure things out and how they fit in a world that sets up a lot of expectations that are unrealistic for their body types.

 

I admit, I assumed you were talking about fat chicks, can you elaborate what you were really talking about?

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

You do realize that getting confused and wandering off on your own isn't "leading", right? Right?

 

 

Lol. Yes I do. Now *that* was a funny joke.

 

 

I admit, I assumed you were talking about fat chicks, can you elaborate what you were really talking about?

 

Could be anything. All the things women potentially worry about when it comes to their bodies vs projections of what women should look like in media.

[zengirl]

Maybe it’s the face that’s throwing you off. Remember how you talked about that before?

 

Doubt it's only that. I'm also just not a fan of excessive muscles. I've said in many threads I don't like men who are too muscular or gym rats (soccer type muscles are hot, but not weight-lifting ones) so I'm not sure why I'd find it pretty on women who are typically softer than men overall. I'm sure there are some people that like it - more on men than women, since men have more natural muscle than women and thus it's less extreme - but not me.

 

I never said there weren’t regular women that do sporty or athletic things in their regular lives Zengirl.

 

Huh? I never said you said that. I said that by focusing on the upper echelon, yes, you've found athletic women who have a look that is less appealing than average women who are athletic. Or even, probably, Olympians when they're not in training, as another poster mentioned above, and look less extreme.

 

And this equates to seeing something as right or wrong how? How is it that you get to tell me what I consider right and wrong because of your over theorizing and obessive disection of my comments?

 

So you consider it absolutely 100% fine with you (not simply their choice - but a choice you approve of and/or have no feelings of approval or disapproval whatsoever and don't see ANY social problem with) if men prefer Playmate models sexually to Olympians or average women? I apologize if I've mistaken your view on that, but you seem to have written very strongly that you find that to be a social issue.

 

I think you love slights very much. People don't say the things you say regularly without loving slights.

 

No, I don't really like having to criticize anyone at all, but sometimes you have to take a critical view when people present their ideas in such a way and so strongly. I only tried to soften that comment by saying it's 'not a slight' because you keep trying to get me to talk to you in a different, softer way. I was trying to accommodate and preserve your feelings for once, but there is really no winning with you. At any rate, I'm not trying to "hide" at all.

 

As for "bouncing all over", perhaps you should reflect a bit on your , take a own comments. The difference between you and I is that I am not offended or I don't see anything wrong in ideas within a thread taking a turn here and there. Ideas get explored all the time. I don't whine about how your comments bounce around.

 

I don't see anything 'wrong' with it -- I was just asking you to clarify your original purpose. I don't see why you've taken umbrage with that when MC or I asked it. It's not "not taking your response at your word" but rather stating that your response did not present any clarification. Saying "re-read the first post" is hardly productive clarification to your purpose. It sounds to me like you don't want to state your original purpose, and that's fine, but I'm honestly saying I don't understand it if it is not what MC presented (which is very close to what I read as your thesis as well).

 

I am wholeheartedly interested in an honest dialogue, which is why I started asking simple yes/no questions for clarity. The last one was not answered, and I suspect the one in this post will not be answered either.

[123321]

Doubt it's only that. I'm also just not a fan of excessive muscles. I've said in many threads I don't like men who are too muscular or gym rats (soccer type muscles are hot, but not weight-lifting ones) so I'm not sure why I'd find it pretty on women who are typically softer than men overall.

 

Don't confuse weight lifters and body builders. Weight lifters success is measured by performance, body building by meeting appearance goals; both just happen to train with weights to achieve their goals.

 

 

On topic, I don't see why it's shocking that Playboy pinups are considered sexy and women who look like that are also considered sexy; that's WHY they are in Playboy after all, let's not confuse cause and effect here.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Doubt it's only that.

 

I agree However, you made a distinct point earlier about the faces being made in a picture making one looking unattractive when I posted a few pictures (mind you, one you couldn’t even see their face and the other had a very pretty smiling face) of some Olympic ladies. You said:

 

I would say often it's also the pictures themselves that make the women seem unattractive -- generally speaking, grunting and screaming and scrapping mid-contest makes everyone look unattractive. Men, included, really.

 

Then I said:

 

I think people are intelligent enough to look past the sport faces and simply observe the line of the body.

 

Then you said:

 

I don't think it's about intelligence - attraction is often holistic and instinctive.

 

But it does seem like you agree with me that people are able to separate the image of someone’s face from the line of their body. despite the debate you had with me earlier drawing the rationale that this couldn't be done from the pictures I posted. You yourself said, “Doubt it’s only that.”

 

 

I'm also just not a fan of excessive muscles. I've said in many threads I don't like men who are too muscular or gym rats (soccer type muscles are hot, but not weight-lifting ones) so I'm not sure why I'd find it pretty on women who are typically softer than men overall. I'm sure there are some people that like it - more on men than women, since men have more natural muscle than women and thus it's less extreme - but not me.

 

I was never interested in debating what you found attractive Zengirl. The main topic of my thread was the disassociation I found in men saying they liked athletic women then posting pictures of pretty women, all done up not looking very athletic at all. Sure, those women *could* be athletic. But there is no way to tell from a picture of a woman made up to look pretty what her level of athleticism is. So it’s strange to say “I like athletic women” but not post an image that would really portray the qualities you are saying you like. Now if it was said that, “I like women with big breasts”, and a picture of a woman with big breasts is posted, that makes sense. It does not make sense to me to tout a quality you like about women, desire to use and image to make that picture more clear, when the image doesn’t even honestly reflect the quality being expressed as desirable.

 

Huh? I never said you said that.

 

You said and asked me this:

 

It is my experience that many regular women (not professional athletes or Olympians) who do sporty and athletic things in their regular lives ARE often sought after by many men who value that. Let's be 100% clear: Are you suggesting they are not?

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding but asking that to begin with suggests that you believe that this is enough of a possibility to be true to ask the question in the first place.

 

I said that by focusing on the upper echelon, yes, you've found athletic women who have a look that is less appealing than average women who are athletic. Or even, probably, Olympians when they're not in training, as another poster mentioned above, and look less extreme.

 

I already explained to you why I specifically targeted Olympic females. It was because I saw some pre-game trials on TV and it got me to thinking about the conversation here at LS about guys talking about liking athletic women but then posting pictures that do not truly embody athleticism in women. Digging deeper in this conversation, this could be applied to regular female athletes too. However, that is not where my first train of thought jumped off from. It jumped off from the Olympic athletes.

 

And no, I didn’t find athletic women who “have a look that is less appealing than the average women who are athletic”. I found women actually doing athletic things. They all looked like normal women to me. Clearly with more defined bodies though. If a man thinks athletic women are attractive, I don’t see why he would be turned off by women doing actually athletic things. I also had a picture in there of one woman Olympic athlete that was done up and smiling for the camera that you keep ignoring it. I am sure I can find more pictures like that if I really wanted to. I didn't spend hours upon hours to post pictures. Just picked out a few examples. Sue me.

 

So you consider it absolutely 100% fine with you (not simply their choice - but a choice you approve of and/or have no feelings of approval or disapproval whatsoever and don't see ANY social problem with) if men prefer Playmate models sexually to Olympians or average women? I apologize if I've mistaken your view on that, but you seem to have written very strongly that you find that to be a social issue.

 

I do not see this issue in terms of “right” or “wrong”. This is not, and never has been, and I never claimed was, a black and white issue. Your desire to pin point me either way shows that you infact do not understand my position as much as you sometimes attempt to claim that you do.

 

I personally believe there is something wrong in over idolizing images of Playmates or women in media in general. Yet, I see both men and women do this. I do think that a lot of popular media directed to men skews and affects expectations. I think this also happens to women who skew their own expectations of themselves. Sometimes it results in low body confidence or surgery to "improve" in the areas society says they fail and a million other issues. i am not claiming women shouldn't take responsibility for this. Only pointing out that it happens.

 

You are not going to change me of this belief system anymore then I could change you of your own belief system that it doesn’t affect men. Do I understand why men are attracted to them? Partially I guess...then again, not really. It’s so fake to *me*. I think the image of the Playmate still sets up false expectations that are re-enforced through an over glorification or idolization of such imagery or pictures. I think it’s unfair to say “I like athletic women” then post a picture of a young hot babe all made up and pretty. It would be like saying, “I like really intelligent women that read books” and posting a picture of a young hot babe all made up and wearing something skimpy. That model could be very intelligent, but the image does not reflect the quality being expressed as being “liked”.

 

I do believe these image to be glorified when used to talk about women in terms of “ideals” of what a man wants. There are plenty of pictures all over the internet that can be posted that don’t have to deal with either Playmates or violating the privacy of real people.

 

This is not a matter of “right” or “wrong”. This was never a matter of “black” and “white” for me. I just think there are certain issues concerning the images that are upheld about women as “ideals”. And I don’t think many people are going to disagree with that. I do not want to be with the kind of man that up helds the image of Playmate as the pinnacle of womanhood. I believe that this focuses on the wrong things about women for one thing and that it’s such a false ideal of woman that it’s simply really not fair. I am not so swayed by men with ripped bodies and I would like to find a man that was not so easily swayed by sensationalistic material as well. Do I think men are “wrong” that they think Playmates are attractive. No. Because it’s never been an issue of “wrong”. They respond to it because these images give them a fantasy. It plays off their own most sensationalistic desires. Which is why I’d prefer to be with a guy that saw past that and wasn’t as captivated by such images. And perhaps a man that posts those kind of pictures isn’t 100% captivated by those images. However, if he is using them to begin with you can guarantee they hold some amount of sway with him. That’s just logical.

 

If you want to castrate me for my beliefs, go ahead. But this is what I believe and no matter how differently you think for me, I am not swayed by what you think anymore then you are swayed by what I think. I only am giving you an honest response because you asked. Although I am sure that despite asking the question you asked you will try to come back with points why I shouldn’t think the way I think about such matters.

 

No, I don't really like having to criticize anyone at all, but sometimes you have to take a critical view when people present their ideas in such a way and so strongly.

 

Your actions with me indicate that you very much enjoy putting me down and being critical. But not critical in a positive sense-of-analysis way. I do not find your form of criticalness very productive to the conversation. You simply make cheap shots and either hide behind them by trying to say I said these things myself, about myself (WTF) or you just to justify why you get to say the most hideous things to people and blame that person for it. "I don't really like having to criticize.....BUT....." Yes, you do like to critcize in negative ways. No one is making you do it. You choose to do it. YOu don't have to go about it the way you do. Throwing in personal commentary on who you think a person is being at the time has nothing to do with being critical in an analysistic way about a person's ideas.

 

I only tried to soften that comment by saying it's 'not a slight' because you keep trying to get me to talk to you in a different, softer way. I was trying to accommodate and preserve your feelings for once, but there is really no winning with you. At any rate, I'm not trying to "hide" at all.

 

I really didn't read your "not a slight" comment as being softer.

 

For a good chunk of our conversations you've told me I am close minded, in other threads telling me I am a nag and bully and the list goes. Those seem like slights to me. It is not lost on me that the person being accused of close mindedness is actually the one person not accusing anyone of close mindedness.

 

If you want to win with me, treat me with respect. I would like to treat you with respect as well. I do not like this arguing between us. I wish there was a way for us to respectfully state our opinions without it becoming a crap fest ( or as my good friend’s 2 year old son says “ca-ca-poo-poo”). Particularly a crap fest (ca-ca-poo-poo) on me for making all these atrocious character references about who I might be at any given moment you find dysatisfaction with my comments.

 

 

I don't see anything 'wrong' with it -- I was just asking you to clarify your original purpose. I don't see why you've taken umbrage with that when MC or I asked it.

 

Because Mme regularly makes snide and insincere comments with ulterior motives when it comes to me. Mme and I do not have the same online relationship you and Mme may have. But I take special umbrage with you, more so then her, in this case, because she already asked that question and I responded and you basically told me that you do not believe the answer I gave Mme. Then why ask me in the first place about anything if you are simply going to override the response I give you with responses like that?

 

This is why I do not believe you are very sincere a good chunk of the time. Sometimes I do think you are sincere like above with the "not a slight" comment but not when you claim that you are asking sincere questions for a sincere dialogue but you manage to slip in all the ways you think I am...(close minded, nag, bully...yada yada) and you tell me that you basically don’t believe the response I gave in response to someone’s question already asked.

 

It's not "not taking your response at your word" but rather stating that your response did not present any clarification.

 

Yes, my response presented clarification just fine. You simply do not like the response I give you and then continue to pretend that I didn’t answer something. I don't understand what could be bettern clarification for asking the motiviation for a post other then the very first post created by that poster!

 

 

Saying "re-read the first post" is hardly productive clarification to your purpose.

 

It’s a perfectly productive clarification because the purpose of my first post is the purpose of the thread! Why would I need to re-type something I already put in writing from page 1?

 

It sounds to me like you don't want to state your original purpose, and that's fine, but I'm honestly saying I don't understand it if it is not what MC presented (which is very close to what I read as your thesis as well).

 

My original purpose is stated in the original thread to this topic. You have received your answer. I do not know what more you are looking for. It doesn't get much clearer then looking to the very first thread of a topic started to see the purpose of the thread!

 

 

I am wholeheartedly interested in an honest dialogue, which is why I started asking simple yes/no questions for clarity. The last one was not answered, and I suspect the one in this post will not be answered either.

 

I find it really offensive how many times you try to pretend I don’t respond to questions and dialogue you make to me when I do nothing but this. This comes down to you being unhappy with the responses you get. I am sorry but I don’t think there is anything I could say that would appease your relentless pursuit in shunning me for my thoughts. Because your goal isn’t for honest dialogue. Your goal is to simply argue with me because you don’t like me or my comments.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Don't confuse weight lifters and body builders. Weight lifters success is measured by performance, body building by meeting appearance goals; both just happen to train with weights to achieve their goals.

 

You mean you don't read all my long winded posts? I had said previously in page 5:

 

Weight lifting IS a part of body building but Weight lifting and Body Building are not the same things. Is there a “body building” competition in the Olympics? I certainly see a competition for Weight Lifting.

 

But I am glad you chimed in on that one and added the comment.

 

On topic, I don't see why it's shocking that Playboy pinups are considered sexy and women who look like that are also considered sexy; that's WHY they are in Playboy after all, let's not confuse cause and effect here.

 

But this wasn't simply about sexy women! It was about men saying they liked "athletic" women then posting pictures of sexy pin-ups. The woman posted in the pictures might be athletic, but that is not what is really protected in the picture. If you like athletic women, why wouldn't you post a picture of the atribute you are saying you like. It would be like a man saying, "I love really intelligent women that read books", then posting a picture of a sexy pin-up to protray that image. It doesn't go well together in my opinion. The attribute being touted as a positive is not the image being reprsented in the picture.

It is simply confusing in my opinion.

 

But continue to laminate pictures of Playmates and talk about how you like smart, funny, athletic women while the same redunant, skimpy attired pictures of women get posted over and over and over again. Because women are suppose to get that men love women for all these other qualities as long as some young hot babe in a tiny outfit is being posted. Suuurre..okay.

[Mme. Chaucer]

It was about men saying they liked "athletic" women then posting pictures of sexy pin-ups. The woman posted in the pictures might be athletic, but that is not what is really protected in the picture. If you like athletic women, why wouldn't you post a picture of the atribute you are saying you like.

 

The guys probably think those women have athletic bodies. As opposed to a sexy non-athletic type of body, like Marilyn Monroe's or Anna Nicole Smith's.

 

Anyway, so what? What is your gigantic investment in what a guy thinks "athletic" women look like?

 

And I would really appreciate it if you'll refrain from going off about how I'm attacking you, etc. It's really old. You post more stuff on this site that gets other peoples' goat than any other poster that I read, and yet you refuse to accept the results. Which are that sometimes, I or others are going to challenge you.

 

 

It would be like a man saying, "I love really intelligent women that read books", then posting a picture of a sexy pin-up to protray that image. It doesn't go well together in my opinion.

Yep, that's your opinion. It probably doesn't have much to do with the way things really go, though.

 

A really intelligent woman who reads books can look like a porn star.

 

The attribute being touted as a positive is not the image being reprsented in the picture. It is simply confusing in my opinion.

 

If the porn star looking hot babe was wearing glasses and holding a book, would that help to clarify everything for you?

 

But continue to laminate pictures of Playmates and talk about how you like smart, funny, athletic women while the same redunant, skimpy attired pictures of women get posted over and over and over again. Because women are suppose to get that men love women for all these other qualities as long as some young hot babe in a tiny outfit is being posted. Suuurre..okay.

 

The dream girl of many guys probably has all the qualities you mention AND looks like a young, hot babe all at the same time!

 

That would be so cool!

 

But, fantasy and reality have space between them, and most of us are a lot more comfortable with that than you are. You need to realize that. Never change, but just know that you are isolating yourself by your refusal to extend some understanding to people who don't have as many of the same type of issues as you seem to have.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Anyway, so what? What is your gigantic investment in what a guy thinks "athletic" women look like?

 

What's your investment with any topic I feel like dicussing?

 

And I would really appreciate it if you'll refrain from going off about how I'm attacking you, etc. It's really old.

 

Old but true!

 

Then your question was sincere and you believe my response that the intent of my post was exactly what I posted in my first post?

 

You post more stuff on this site that gets other peoples' goat than any other poster that I read, and yet you refuse to accept the results. Which are that sometimes, I or others are going to challenge you.

 

This isn't about challenging me. I've had conversations with posters that have challeneged me and those conversations where really great.

 

 

Yep, that's your opinion. It probably doesn't have much to do with the way things really go, though.

 

Yeah I don't know what that means. *shrug*

 

A really intelligent woman who reads books can look like a porn star.

 

Absolutely. I didn't claim otherwise. That is infact is my point. A woman in Playmate might very well be athletic or read books and be intelligent. (You do remember reading this yes? Do I really need to point this out to you again?) But if these are the qualities you are going to use, then post a picture that doesn't really showcase that, then it's not too clear. I stand by the point that it's strange to make the comment that you like a certain element a woman might be or participate in but then post pictures that don't truly reflect that.

 

 

If the porn star looking hot babe was wearing glasses and holding a book, would that help to clarify everything for you?

 

No and I already thought about that. Not anymore then a pretty picture of Playmate all done up holding a baseball bat and wearing little tiny baseball shorts would convince anyone she is truly athletic.

 

 

 

The dream girl of many guys probably has all the qualities you mention AND looks like a young, hot babe all at the same time!

 

That would be so cool!

 

I stand by my points regarding the kind of media about women that gets glamorized and idolized not being positive imagery in general for emboding women in the everyday world that most men are interacting with.

 

 

 

But, fantasy and reality have space between them, and most of us are a lot more comfortable with that than you are.

 

The conversation isn't about comparing you or how you like to talk for most people are vs me. I have no clue what you or other people are comfortable with and you don't know what I am confortable with. I do know that it's not unreasonable to point out the realities of glamorized ideals of feminity.

 

 

You need to realize that. Never change, but just know that you are isolating yourself by your refusal to extend some understanding to people who don't have as many of the same type of issues as you seem to have.

 

I don't really get what you think I don't "realize". I think that a very small subset of people have made me a target to get all riled about because my opinion is different then them. But I've talked about this issue long enough to know that many women do feel like I do even if you (and the people that usually are the group of regulars that follow suit with you) don't. You need to realize the same advice you are giving me Mme.

 

I have no clue what you mean by "isolating" myself. Neither do I understand why you are lecturing about understanding when that is not something I've seen you offer much around this board yourself.

 

Don't once fool yourself that you do not have as many type of issues as I have. From my experiences with you Mme, there is a lot you really need to work on and address in your own personal life. And yes, that goes for me as well. I am not so arrogant that I will sit behind my computer and tell someone else they are issue ridden and attempt to paint the picture that I somehow have "less" issues then them. I even fail to see how making these kind of comparisons is productive to the conversation. It's not. It's your own way to make everything personal about me rather then simply sticking to the topic. I never claimed to be a perfect person. I do not have "more" issues just because I think a particular topic is important. Your nonsense needs to stop. And you need to stop your endless pursuit in catagorizing me rather then sticking to the topic. It's nonsense.

[123321]

I had said previously in page 5:

 

Weight lifting IS a part of body building but Weight lifting and Body Building are not the same things.

 

I was actually responding to Zen, and weight training is part of Body Building, and many other activities.

 

 

But this wasn't simply about sexy women! It was about men saying they liked "athletic" women then posting pictures of sexy pin-ups. The woman posted in the pictures might be athletic, but that is not what is really protected in the picture. If you like athletic women, why wouldn't you post a picture of the atribute you are saying you like. It would be like a man saying, "I love really intelligent women that read books", then posting a picture of a sexy pin-up to protray that image. It doesn't go well together in my opinion.

 

So why aren't women in the Olympics seen as more attractive then Playmates?

 

Then vs than, please.

 

 

I love fast cars. This doesn't mean I want an F1 car, they are expensive and impractical, just too extreme. But something fast, sporty and a little more practical, you know, maybe with 2 seats instead of 1, and that run on pump gas, now that I would have.

[Mme. Chaucer]

What's your investment with any topic I feel like dicussing?

 

It's amusing - and sort of disconcerting - that you think I am profoundly interested in you. I do participate in your threads from time to time, certainly. I don't spend any more time on them than I do on others. You are just so very … prolific. And, your favorite subject (repression & shame as a means of control) is something that I love to argue against. So, I will engage when I feel like it.

 

 

Then your question was sincere and you believe my response that the intent of my post was exactly what I posted in my first post?

 

Not exactly, since the massive body of text you've added between your first post and this one have lead down that old, familiar path … which several of us have recognized and can be summed up very concisely: you think it's somehow wrong for men to be attracted to commercially attractive women.

 

You are just looking for a different way to bring out your old saw.

 

Several have recognized it. Go ahead and say that's not what you meant … but it IS what you have been saying. Over and over.

 

This isn't about challenging me. I've had conversations with posters that have challeneged me and those conversations where really great.

 

The only "really great" conversations I've seen you have here are with people who agree with you, or who agree to alter their language and communication style to coddle you even when you are offending them.

 

I stand by the point that it's strange to make the comment that you like a certain element a woman might be or participate in but then post pictures that don't truly reflect that.

 

But … pictures are to show what a person LOOKS like, not necessarily what they like to do. And we like to see a picture of a person to see if we find them attractive or not.

 

I am not being obtuse. I online dated a lot and I really did NOT appreciate seeing the picture of the guy's boat or car or the big fish he caught when I wanted to have a good look at his face and how he held himself.

 

 

 

And you need to stop your endless pursuit

 

If you really think I am in endless pursuit of anything to do with you … I fear you might be delusional. But go ahead and think that, if it does something for you.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[Mme. Chaucer]

Don't once fool yourself that you do not have as many type of issues as I have. From my experiences with you Mme, there is a lot you really need to work on and address in your own personal life.

 

Why are you bringing up the issues you believe me to have in YOUR thread about YOUR issues??

 

If I write about my own issues here, I certainly anticipate that I am going to get input that's positive, negative and all places between.

 

Why do you always lash out when the input you get is negative?

 

I'm sorry, but as long as you keep coming back with thread after thread after thread that basically say "men / society need to change because the way it is makes ME unhappy" I will probably pipe in once in a while with something you aren't going to like.

 

Why?

 

Because I have learned, thanks to my own personal issues and all the work I did to get on the other side of them, to accept what I cannot change, and to work on what I can. That would be ME. Or, in your case, YOU.

 

The opposite of what you incessantly speechify about on LS.

 

Gets my goat. Take it like a woman without whining, or step off of your soap box.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

123321

I was actually responding to Zen, and weight training is part of Body Building, and many other activities.

 

I know. I just wanted to point out that I pointed that out before.

 

 

 

I love fast cars. This doesn't mean I want an F1 car, they are expensive and impractical, just too extreme. But something fast, sporty and a little more practical, you know, maybe with 2 seats instead of 1, and that run on pump gas, now that I would have.

 

But it's not really a case of that. It's a case for settling for something a bit more "pratical" (gee,isn't that romantic) and then lusting after the less practical option and putting it on a pedestal of dreaming and wishing. Not really very flattering in my opinion. If the women you date are okay with that, great. But I wouldn't want to be with a guy that viewed women this way.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

It's amusing - and sort of disconcerting - that you think I am profoundly interested in you.

 

Oh so your consistant (obessive?) pursuit of my posts is disconcerting to you? That is amusing!

 

The proof is in the pudding. You are profoundly interested in me. No one pursues another poster's post so relentlessly unless they aren't very interested.

 

When was the last time I responded to one of your posts when it didn't involve me? Very rarely do I jump in on your comments. Unless they are directed specifically to me.

 

Not exactly, since the massive body of text you've added between your first post and this one have lead down that old, familiar path …

 

Blah blah blah...yes yes...we all know I'm a wordy little thing. That's me. I'm proud of my writing. Even when it's not perfectly edited on a message board. Spelling mistakes and typos and all!

 

which several of us have recognized and can be summed up very concisely: you think it's somehow wrong for men to be attracted to commercially attractive women.

 

A gross over simplification and inaccurate depiction of the myriad of issues I've presented in my posts.

 

You are just looking for a different way to bring out your old saw.

 

Acutally, I've been saying the same things for a long time now! *scratches head*.

 

The only "really great" conversations I've seen you have here are with people who agree with you, or who agree to alter their language and communication style to coddle you even when you are offending them.

 

Actually no, I've had great conversations with people that disagree with me. I'll use Wholigan as an example since he is the most recent person having a big of a discussion with me despite the fact we disagree. I always find my conversations with me to be pretty awesome even in our disagreement. And I never had to ask anyone to "alter" their language and communication style except one poster who takes regular action to make wrong character generalizations repeatedly.

 

You do realize that you are once again making me the topic ofy our posts! And you are disconcerted by me? Because you follow me around and repeatedly have this burning desire inside you to talk about me specifically. Okie Dokie then.

 

 

 

I am not being obtuse. I online dated a lot and I really did NOT appreciate seeing the picture of the guy's boat or car or the big fish he caught when I wanted to have a good look at his face and how he held himself.

 

When did we start talking about online dating?

 

If you really think I am in endless pursuit of anything to do with you … I fear you might be delusional. But go ahead and think that, if it does something for you.

 

Your posts prove it time and time again. It does do something for me! I am very flattered by your interest and pursuit of all things DY.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

Why are you bringing up the issues you believe me to have in YOUR thread about YOUR issues??

 

Why shouldn't I bring up the issues I believe you to have when you continually laminate about what you have hypothesized about my issues and try to use it as a means to degenerate my view point? Why wouldn't I also factor in your own issues in a discussion regarding how you deal with people and the kind of things you say to them that can be affected by your own issues?

 

Why do you always lash out when the input you get is negative?

 

Where have I lashed out? Because I stand up to you and don't let you get away with pushing me around? this thread is't about my issues. You are the one that continually tries to turn every topic I bring up into my issues. You are unable to simply talk about a subject without making *me* the subject of your posts.

 

I'm sorry, but as long as you keep coming back with thread after thread after thread that basically say "men / society need to change because the way it is makes ME unhappy" I will probably pipe in once in a while with something you aren't going to like.

 

I would love if you truly piped in "once-in-awhile" about the TOPIC. That is not what happens. You enjoy talking about me. You looooove me...you want to kiiisssss me....

 

I understand you dislike what I like to talk about. I don't care. I make really great points about these topics and I stand by them. You rarely address the actual things I say but only address *me* as the topic and try to say things about *me* that you simply don't know about.

 

Because I have learned, thanks to my own personal issues and all the work I did to get on the other side of them, to accept what I cannot change, and to work on what I can. That would be ME. Or, in your case, YOU.

 

For me, life is a personal journey where I am always growing and changing and evolving. But there are also fundemental beliefs I believe in that I will remain to stand by because I believe I have a firm grasp of certain aspects of life based on my own education, personal experiences, thought process and moral code. This does not mean I am "better" then people that think differently then me. It simply means that I stand by the things I feel passionate about because of the person I am.

 

I have never claimed to be a perfect person. I have infact apologized to you for things I've done that I know wheren't well played. I have been very open in admitting these faults in a way I don't always see from others. I have offered you olive branches, more then once, in an attempt to get a long better that have gone ignored.

 

I know I can not change the world or society. If every singular person in the world only did stuff or thought stuff under the idea of being able to change society as a whole, no one would do anything. If every singular person in the world thought "well I can't change the world so I should just accept what happens in the world," there would never be any change at all. I do not expect to change society or the entire world. But that doesn't mean I give up on what I believe because I am honest about my ability not to change the world as a whole. I can do my own little part.

 

The opposite of what you incessantly speechify about on LS.

 

You haven't ever once accurately restated what I incessantly speachify about. And yes, I do incessantly talk about these things! So what? What do you care what I "incessantly" speak about. You don't have to read my threads. You don't have to read my posts. Don't complain about what I 'incessantly" talk about but also talk about your right to respond to them.

 

Gets my goat. Take it like a woman without whining, or step off of your soap box.

 

Take your own advice. Don't accept that you can repeatedly try and beat someone down and falsely represent them and that they will lay down and take it simply because you want them to. Sorry, I don't work that way and I never will work that way.

 

But thank you for this post and proving once again that you LOVE to talk about me more then you acutally like talkign about the actual subject.

[123321]

But it's not really a case of that. It's a case for settling for something a bit more "pratical" (gee,isn't that romantic) and then lusting after the less practical option ...

 

Not at all, you miss the point. When I (and a lot of guys) say we like an athletic build, we don't mean "body of a world class athlete" any more than I mean an F! car when I say I like fast cars. I wouldn't want or lust after an F1 car any more than I lust after a volleyball star, but I still feel comfortable saying I like fast cars and athletic built women.

 

Extremes in anything are often not attractive.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Not at all, you miss the point. When I (and a lot of guys) say we like an athletic build, we don't mean "body of a world class athlete" any more than I mean an F! car when I say I like fast cars. I wouldn't want or lust after an F1 car any more than I lust after a volleyball star, but I still feel comfortable saying I like fast cars and athletic built women.

 

Extremes in anything are often not attractive.

 

That's not really true. Especially for men when it comes to fantasy and women. Men love extremes. This is what the entire sexual geared media industry toward men is built on. Extremes.

 

You wouldn't be interested in a woman with the body of a world class athlete but you'd be interested in the body of a world class Playmate - so to speak. I am not saying this is "wrong". I am just saying that if the barometer is not being attracted to extremes, yet still using Playmates as examples of attraction, that's still an extreme. Most women aren't Playmates. Most women age past the age of 25. Most women don't have two round perfect sized baseballs on their chest and poreless skin.

 

 

We don't even know if the Playmates being posted work out at all. If someone is pointing out a specific trait they enjoy, and then posting pictures as visuals to give people an idea what that is, but that picture doesn't really portray the trait being pointed out, it seems counter productive and like a false repesentation of what someone truly likes. It's not that person really like athletic bodies. They simply like the stereotyped bodies they find in popular male entertainment if they are using images of pretty-dolled up women. Now if a man does liek athetic woman and posts a picture of a woman clearly showing off her athletcism, that makes sense to me. Especially if he is talking about how much he likes athleticism. If a man likes athleticism, then he would like pictures of women doing athletic things right?

 

I can see why extremes wouldn't be attractive, but I think the Playmate/Pin-up is infact a portrayed "extreme". How often have I heard men say "these women are just fantasy". Playmates themselves are an extreme. They embody an image that isn't realistic for the majority of women. Even for women that might have big breasts and small waists and aren't older then 25. Those images aren't "real". And most certainly don't protray the image of "athleticism". It just appears to be counter productive to me to enjoy athleticism in women but then post pictures of only young hot babes in tiny outfits with prefect make up and hair done up.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Oh so your consistant (obessive?) pursuit of my posts is disconcerting to you? That is amusing!

 

I guess you didn't read my post, so I'll reiterate:

 

Your favorite subject (repression & shame as a means of control) is something that I love to argue against. So, I will engage when I feel like it.

 

It's nothing personal.

 

Carry on!